False Prophet?

[Robert F. Smith]

I believe Brother Brigham was chosen to lead the Church because he was the only one able to do what needed to be done. He wasn't chosen by God because he had so many profound truths about the gospel to share with us, but because he was the right man for the job -- charismatic, physically strong, and a good leader.

Amen, Brother.

[Avatar4321]

The visitation of the angels you mention (all resurrected mark you) was for the purpose of restoring keys or authority.

I am not aware that an unresurrected Brigham restored any keys.

I find this story less than believable.

Since when is there a requirement that all ministering angels or spirits restore keys? Angels throughout the scriptures have appeared for various reasons.

[Alan]

Alan, that Salt Land Heresies document is on a website run by the RLDS restoration branches. How did you come across it? Do you agree with their beliefs?

Came across it years ago. Can't remember how.

Do I agree with their beliefs? Depends which ones you are referring to.

[K-2]

Came across it years ago. Can't remember how.

Do I agree with their beliefs? Depends which ones you are referring to.

Do you agree with their belief that Brigham Young was not the proper sucessor to Joseph Smith, or that Joseph Smith III was?

[Damien the Leper]

Do you agree with their belief that Brigham Young was not the proper sucessor to Joseph Smith, or that Joseph Smith III was?

I do. But my opinion has more to do with my disdain for BYU.

[K-2]

This is what Joseph Smith himself thought of Joseph Smith III and his RLDS beliefs:

Went to the High Priests meeting held in the Font house. Philo Dibble spoke of this being the resurrection day. And that Joseph Smith had been to Pres. John Taylor and conversed with him in his body about this crusade against us, and that he felt grieved at the course his son Joseph was taking.

--John Moon Clements Journal, July 31, 1886.

The last time I met Pres. Taylor he said to me: "I may never see you again and I want to tell you that I have seen the Prophet Joseph who said the Lord did not want his people to be concerned about the raid or inquire when it would cease. 'It will stop in mine own due time,' said the Lord. Joseph, however, said it made him sad to see his own son (Joseph Smith...[iII] , who was then traveling through the territory preaching against this Church) trying to tear down what he had given his life to establish."

--Abraham H. Cannon Journal, July 7, 1891.

[Calm]

OK, I'm back.

The affidvitts are contained in a document called Salt Land Heresies. If you want to read the whole document it can be found here: http://www.restored....ds/salthrsy.htm

They're about 20% of the way down a very long essay.

I have actually extracted the relevant quotes but they won't paste for some reason. I'm a bit of a luddite when it comes to technology so I guess I must be doing something wrong.

If I figure it out I'll post the specific quotes that are the subject of this thread.

I now give you the predictions of Joseph Smith, concerning Brigham Young, certified to by sworn testimony:

POMONA, CALIFORNIA,

February 14th, 1884

To Whom this May Concern:_ This is to certify that I, S.L. Crain, was personally acquainted with Joseph Smith from about 1840 to 1841, and that I heard him say to and of Brigham Young, whom I also knew, that if he ( Brigham Young) was left to lead the church, the pride of his heart would lead them to hell. This was said at a conference of the church, in Nauvoo, where there was a large assemblage of the people, and probably in the spring of 1843- possibly 1842.

Winess my hand, S.L. Crain.

Done in the presence of Wm. Pickering.

______

San Bernadino, California,

February 4th, 1884.

Joseph Thorn, a resident of San Bernardino, California, being duly sworn, deposes and says: I was personally acquainted with Brigham Young, late president of the Utah Mormon Church, and knew him when both he and I were living in Nauvoo, Illinois; and I heard Joseph Smith, Jr., at a public meeting in a grove east of the Temple in Nauvoo, when he had been reproving said Brigham Young for taking and using for his own private purposes church moneys without authority, says of him, "If Brigham Young ever leads this church he will lead it to hell." This is said with great emphasis.

JOSEPH THORN.

Sworn and subscribed to before me at San Bernardino county, California, this fourth day of February, 1884.

E.H. Morse, Notary Public.

_______

To Whom it May Concern:- Know ye that I, David Dixon, now resident at Riverside, San Bernardino county, California, was personally present at a public meeting in Nauvoo, Illinois, before the building of the Temple; and there and then saw and heard the Prophet Joseph Smith, while preaching, raise his hand (pointing to Brigham Young who was in the stand with him) saying:"Talk about leading this church; here is Bro. Brigham, if he ever leads this church, he will lead it to hell." There were more than a thousand people present at the time; several of whom, I, David ****son, know are now living and heard him say it.

DAVID ****SON

In witness whereof, I have hereunto set my hand, and affixed my official seal, at my office in the county of San Bernardino, California, on this 29th day of December, 1883.

W.W.Smith, Notary Public.

_______

City of Alton, Ill.,March 6th, 1884.

Bro. Joseph Smith:- In the summer of 1843, one day when your father and William Clayton went into the country to transact some church business, after their return Bro. Clayton came to the office [brother Whitehead was then the Seer’s private secretary. Ed.] about one o’clock p.m. Father Cutler and I were in the office, and he said, " Well, brethren, I have heard something to-day a little strange. Bro. Cutler asked him if he was going to tell us what it was; he said, "Yes, I am; and I hope that you will make a note of it." He said, " After we had finished our business, we started for home, and had traveled but a very short distance when Joseph stopped talking and was very much absorbed in thought. He never spoke till we were going down the Temple hill. He then uttered this language aloud: ‘If Brigham Young ever leads this people he will lead them to the devil.’ He never spoke another word. When we got to my house I got out of the buggy and Joseph drove on.

JAMES WHITEHEAD.

SAN BERNARDINO, CAL. ,Dec. 31st, 1883

Mrs. Huntington says: "While living in Nauvoo, I lived three years in Joseph Smith’s family; was well acquainted with church affairs there; and several times heard the Prophet Joseph Smith say, "If Brigham Young leads this church he will lead it to hell."

Catherine Huntington

_______

SAN BERNARDINO, CAL., Dec. 31st. 1883

I lived in Nauvoo from the first of its settlement, and was well aquainted with Joseph Smith and family. I well remember the day Joseph prophesied, "If ever Brigham Young leads this church he will lead it to hell." I believe Joseph was a true prophet of God.

Hannah Lytle

Personally appeared before me, Charles W. Oden, a Notary Public in and for Harrison county, Iowa, this 8th day of March, 1884, John Conyers and Pricella Conyers his wife, who on oath says:" On or about the year 1843, in Hancock county, Illinois, at a public meeting, Joseph Smith said in reference to Brigham Young leading the church, "If Brigham Young led the church, he would lead it to hell."

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Leading anyone to Utah is no gift. God didn't choose Utah. He chose Jackson Co., which isn't saying much either.

Val...have you ever been to the lookout at Adam-ondi-Ahman? If I was a millionaire I would build a house there and put a picture window to see this vast valley.

[Traela]

For me, it's simple. I have a testimony that Wilford Woodruff was a prophet. Therefore BY was a prophet as well, especially since he was responsible for the rearrangement the Quorum of the 12 that directly led to WW becoming the prophet.

[Calm]

The visitation of the angels you mention (all resurrected mark you) was for the purpose of restoring keys or authority.

What of the vision of the founding fathers to WW?

[Damien the Leper]

Val...have you ever been to the lookout at Adam-ondi-Ahman? If I was a millionaire I would build a house there and put a picture window to see this vast valley.

I have been out there. It's beautiful.

[Kevin Christensen]

With regard to the various reports from 1883 and 1884 claiming that Joseph Smith said in 1843, in front of over 1000 people that Brigham had misappropriated church funds for personal use, and that if Brigham ever led the church he would lead it to hell, a few questions.

If Brigham had actually misappropriated church funds for personal use, was he ever disciplined? If not, why not? Why wasn't he ex'ed or demoted? LDS rank or celebrity status had not been an impediment to excommunication for many others.

And if over a thousand people heard such things in a public meeting, why didn't anyone bring it up during the succession crisis, say during the public debates between Ridgon and Young? Wouldn't bringing it up then have been a bit more timely and effective than remembering it 40 years later?

Just saying, you can't believe everything you hear, particularly when it seems not to have made much of an impression for those to whom it would have a far more recent memory and a lot more useful to have mentioned.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

[thesometimesaint]

Val...have you ever been to the lookout at Adam-ondi-Ahman? If I was a millionaire I would build a house there and put a picture window to see this vast valley.

To each their own. But if I had a couple of million dollars and my choice of places to live. It would be in Carmel by the sea.

[Ahab]

To each their own. But if I had a couple of million dollars and my choice of places to live. It would be in Carmel by the sea.

If I had enough windows I'd put a picture in each one of them from all over the world. And I like what is outside of my house too.

[Daniel Peterson]

Wait a minute.

This thread isn't about Kishkumen.

What gives?

[Tacenda]

Val...have you ever been to the lookout at Adam-ondi-Ahman? If I was a millionaire I would build a house there and put a picture window to see this vast valley.

I get to go there next month. I wasn't sure which of all the church history sites to attend. But now that you mentioned this, I better not pass this one up.

[cdowis]

Mrs. Huntington says: "While living in Nauvoo, I lived three years in Joseph Smith’s family; was well acquainted with church affairs there; and several times heard the Prophet Joseph Smith say, "If Brigham Young leads this church he will lead it to hell."

Sigh.......

Even if true, JS did not select his successor.

As mentioned in the post above, it is exceedingly odd that the Saints were not aware of the "many times" JS said this and not mentioned by anyone during the meetings to select his successor. Surely Sidney or someone else would have said something.

Finally we have no concurrent record of this statement until several years after the fact. Memory can be a tricky thing, even when something is written down immediately after hearing it. It was certainly a secret, mentioned only to a "special and select" group which excluded the church leaders.

It has the look and feel of a "faith promoting" rumor to comfort those who abandoned the church.

In any case, I will let the history of the church lead by BY speak for itself. That same church covers the world today.

Edited March 16, 2013 by cdowis

[mathonihah]

Again, the LDS Church has no such doctrine, and D&C 21:4-5 says nothing about it.

“As if from mine own mouth” means what it says.

[Alan]

And if over a thousand people heard such things in a public meeting, why didn't anyone bring it up during the succession crisis, say during the public debates between Ridgon and Young? Wouldn't bringing it up then have been a bit more timely and effective than remembering it 40 years later?

Kevin Christensen

Pittsburgh, PA

This is very easy to answer. Brigham was not arguing that he should lead the church or be it's president. He was arguing that the Twelve should lead the church on the basis that the First Presidency had dissolved and church leadership therefore devolved to the next Quorum in authority.

[Robert F. Smith]

“As if from mine own mouth” means what it says.

You have a double standard when it comes to LDS doctrine, i.e., you do not hew to the same requirements as demanded of someone interpreting official Roman Catholic doctrine. The LDS Church has never had any doctrine of infallibility.

[mathonihah]

You have a double standard when it comes to LDS doctrine, i.e., you do not hew to the same requirements as demanded of someone interpreting official Roman Catholic doctrine. The LDS Church has never had any doctrine of infallibility.

I don't really know what you are talking about. The Catholics have their own theological terminology, and LDS have theirs. The two terminologies may not be equivalent, but it does not mean that concepts taught within each theological system have no equivalence. You can argue about the term “infallible” until doomsday; but the theological concepts of papal infallibility and D&C 21:4–5 are close enough for me to be considered equivalent.

Edited March 17, 2013 by mathonihah

[Alan]

This is what Joseph Smith himself thought of Joseph Smith III and his RLDS beliefs:

This is more than a little suspicious.

For example, the first quote clearly states that Joseph appeared to Pres. Taylor in his body, and implies that he was resurrected. We know this is not true because many years later (early 20th century) Joseph and Hyrum were exhumed and their bodies placed in a new grave. Therefore Joseph was not resurrected and did not appear to Pres. Taylor in his body.

I suggest this story should not be taken seriously.

[Alan]

What of the vision of the founding fathers to WW?

What of it?

We now know that at least some of those apparently petitioning WW had already had their temple wotk done.

Probably just a dream.

Edited March 17, 2013 by Alan

[Alan]

The reason for my OP was that I have come to the belief that although we have a president of the church, we do not always have a prophet. What I mean by this is that we have a man occupying the position of President and who therefore has the potential to be used by the Lord as a prophet, but that in reality that is hardly ever done. In fact, I really can't think of a time since the death of Joseph.

Therefore BY had many false ideas and, by virtue of his position, actually taught the saints false doctrine, causing many of them, even to this day, to believe falsehoods. This was not the Lord's will and would have been displeasing to him.

[cdowis]

Therefore BY had many false ideas and, by virtue of his position, actually taught the saints false doctrine, causing many of them, even to this day, to believe falsehoods. This was not the Lord's will and would have been displeasing to him.

You apparently are not aware of what BY specifically said about accepting everything that the leaders said. Clearly he wanted to see if they were paying any attention, or if they were stupid and naive.

Just curious, aside from the "Eloheim is Adam", what other "falsehoods" did he teach -- especially those which are believed "even to this day". I think you are making a rather silly statement, so let's see what you got.

Edited March 17, 2013 by cdowis