The Gift Of The Holy Ghost And What Nonmembers Have

[DBMormon]

We believe in our church that as members we have an added blessing of the gift of the holy ghost. That it is a constant companion to warn, testify, comfort, ect....

There are many good christians who are not members of the church who also seem to enjoy the same spiritual euphoria that good worthy members do.

1.) In what ways do Latter- Day Saints enjoy something greater or better or bigger or more profecient then what other good evangelicals or catholic or methidist enjoy?

2.) Since the percentage of members of the church is .2% of the worlds population, and only half of those are active. And of the half that are active and less then that would be worthy of that companionship. Does it make much sense to throw out this awesome blessing that only .08% of the world will enjoy. Does it seem a stretch to Say God is giving a very small minority of his children a gift that we say is so needed to get through this life on the straight and narrow path.

I realize my statistics are not proven but even adding .2 % still makes the question valid.

Help me to understand why if the Holy Ghost is so vital, God limits it only to worthy members of the church. And then what does this mean for non-latter-day saints. Also are we truly enjoying something greater then what non-members feel. Many good non-LDS christians recieve spiritual manifestations, warned of danger, partake in healings, directed to truth. What is the difference?

Edited June 27, 2012 by DBMormon

[thesometimesaint]

One is a family member and the other merely a guest.

What percentage of salt does it take to leaven the whole loaf?

[Tacenda]

Can I add onto this the fact that if you're not living righteously the Holy Ghost won't be present. But non LDS don't believe this to be the case.

[CV75]

There are many good christians who are not members of the church who also seem to enjoy the same spiritual euphoria that good worthy members do.

I don't recall ever reading where "euphouria" or any other feeling / state of intense excitement and happiness is a gift of the Spirit or the indicator of whether one has the Gift of the Holy Ghost or not. But some members and non-members may mistaakenly think one is the same as the other.

[MitoticSlime]

I don't recall ever reading where "euphouria" or any other feeling / state of intense excitement and happiness is a gift of the Spirit or the indicator of whether one has the Gift of the Holy Ghost or not. But some members and non-members may mistaakenly think one is the same as the other.

How can you tell the difference, then?

[CV75]

How can you tell the difference, then?

So that I can best explain it to you (by using your own terms and reference point), please provide an example or two of a non-LDS person having the Gift of the Holy Ghost.

[rpn]

IME, living unrighteously does not negate all the effects of the gift of the Holy Ghost. I had been living unrighteously for all of the eight years except the one immediately preceding my excommunication. Nevertheless the effect of losing that gift was ever so tangible and obvious.

“An intelligent being, in the image of God, possesses, every organ, attribute, sense, sympathy, affection, of will, wisdom, love, power and gift, which is possessed by God Himself. But these are possessed by man, in his rudimental state, in a subordinate sense of the word. Or, in other words, these attributes are in embryo, and are to be gradually developed. They resemble a bud, a germ, which gradually develops into bloom, and then, by progress, produces the mature fruit after its own kind. "

"The gift of the Holy Spirit adapts itself to all these organs or attributes. It quickens all the intellectual faculties, increases, enlarges, expands and purifies all the natural passions and affections, and adapts them, by the gift of wisdom, to their lawful use. It inspires, develops, cultivates and matures all the fine toned sympathies, joys, tastes, kindred feelings and affections of our nature. It inspires virtue, kindness, goodness, tenderness, gentleness and charity. It develops beauty of person, form and features. It tends to health, vigor, animation and social feeling. It develops and invigorates all the faculties of the physical and intellectual man. It strengthens, invigorates and gives tone to the nerves. In short, it is, as it were, marrow to the bone, joy to the heart, light to the eyes, music to the ears, and life to the whole being."

"In the presence of such persons one feels to enjoy the light of their countenances, as the genial rays of a sunbeam. Their very atmosphere diffuse and thrill, a warm glow of pure gladness and sympathy, to the heart and nerves of others who have kindred feelings, or sympathy of spirit…”

(Parley P. Pratt, p. 101-102 “Key to the Science of Theology”)

[CV75]

Help me to understand why if the Holy Ghost is so vital, God limits it only to worthy members of the church. And then what does this mean for non-latter-day saints. Also are we truly enjoying something greater then what non-members feel. Many good non-LDS christians recieve spiritual manifestations, warned of danger, partake in healings, directed to truth. What is the difference?

http://classic.scrip....org/en/bd/h/56

Only the LDS Church possesses the keys for proper and authorized baptism and conferral of the Gift of the Holy Ghost. So, only LDS Church members can have this gift and the right to the companionship of the Holy Ghost (contingent upon individual worthiness).

As an extension of the Atonement, there are conditions upon which it is accessed, which relatvely few currently enjoy in this world. However, in the Lord's "timing" it will not be denied anyone with the faith to apply the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel, whether in this life or the next.

Non-LDs simply do not have this gift. The may feel the power of the Holy Ghost, and they may be true to the Light of Christ, but the gift is only gotten by the laying on of hands by those with the authority to do so.

The Gift of the Holy Ghost is not necessary for the enjoyment of all bonafide spiritual experiences, manifestations and spiritual gifts. God communicates with all His children in many ways. But He purifies and cleanses them of sin only through the Gift of the Holy Ghost as faith in Christ and in His Atonement are exercsied.

Edited June 27, 2012 by CV75

[daz2]

If God chooses to send His Holy Spirit to people outside our faith, even as a constant companion, who are we to complain about it? I know many people outside our faith and even outside Christianity whose lives evidence the constant companionship of God's spirit. If they receive that without having got through our ordinances, how can I complain? And what gives me the right to tell them that they do not have the companionship of God's spirit or what they have is qualitatively different from what I feel when I am in tune with God's spirit?

Edited June 27, 2012 by daz2

[thesometimesaint]

God is a God of order.

[Senator]

If God chooses to send His Holy Spirit to people outside our faith, even as a constant companion, who are we to complain about it? I know many people outside our faith and even outside Christianity whose lives evidence the constant companionship of God's spirit. If they receive that without having got through our ordinances, how can I complain? And what gives me the right to tell them that they do not have the companionship of God's spirit or what they have is qualitatively different from what I feel when I am in tune with God's spirit?

I fully agree with you.

The exclusivity claims regarding the Gift of the Holy Ghost, looked upon through evidential lenses, has always been a bewilderment to me

[MitoticSlime]

So that I can best explain it to you (by using your own terms and reference point), please provide an example or two of a non-LDS person having the Gift of the Holy Ghost.

I don't know any examples of a non-LDS person having the Gift of the Holy Ghost. I was asking how we as LDS people can tell the difference between a manifestation of the Gift of the Holy Ghost and a manifestation of the Spirit that could be available to anyone. I honestly have never really known the difference, since I was born in the church and received the Goft of the Holy Ghost when I was 8. I didn't feel any differently when I did receive it, but then again the first experiences that I had that I attributed to the Spirit didn't happen until I was older.

[CV75]

If God chooses to send His Holy Spirit to people outside our faith, even as a constant companion, who are we to complain about it? I know many people outside our faith and even outside Christianity whose lives evidence the constant companionship of God's spirit. If they receive that without having got through our ordinances, how can I complain? And what gives me the right to tell them that they do not have the companionship of God's spirit or what they have is qualitatively different from what I feel when I am in tune with God's spirit?

If God chooses to send His Holy Spirit to people outside our faith, even as a constant companion, who are we to complain about it? I agree, we should not complain about it.

I know many people outside our faith and even outside Christianity whose lives evidence the constant companionship of God's spirit. That which you may identify as God’s spirit, another may identify as a spark of divinity, a divine nature, a deep and abiding spirituality, the Light of Christ, spiritual gifts, talents from the pre-existence, even the power of the Holy Ghost. but none of these are the same thing as the Gift of the Holy Ghost.

If they receive that without having got through our ordinances, how can I complain? It doesn’t even depend on what you think they are receiving (which isn’t clear to me); in any case it is not right to complain about God’s blessings to another.

And what gives me the right to tell them that they do not have the companionship of God's spirit or what they have is qualitatively different from what I feel when I am in tune with God's spirit? You have the right to answer a question they may have, and the right to answer them in your own way.

I can tell whether someone has the Gift of the Holy Ghost simply by his letting me know he is a baptized and confirmed member of the LDS Church. My knowing whether or how he actually enjoys the full benefits of this gift, or whether or how he uses it, is entirely up to the Lord, and my modus operandi is that it is not my business.

Likewise, my modus operandi is that people of all faiths enjoy spiritual blessings and gifts of God. Some of these can be spiritually discerned, and I take full respobsibility for how I interact with others on a spiritual basis.

[CV75]

The exclusivity claims regarding the Gift of the Holy Ghost, looked upon through evidential lenses, has always been a bewilderment to me

I too believe the lens and fruits of faith in correct doctrine form the only basis for the exclusivity claims.

[Senator]

I too believe the lens and fruits of faith in correct doctrine form the only basis for the exclusivity claims.

I don't follow this statement.

[CV75]

I don't follow this statement.

You seem to have said that the LDS claim to exclusivity to the Gift of the Holy Ghost (beginning with the exclusive authority to bestow it) cannot be supported by physical evidence. Perhaps I misunderstood.

My response is that I agree, and that the LDS claim to exclusivity to the Gift of the Holy Ghost is based solely on faith in the doctrine, and the subjectively interpreted results of faith in that doctrine.

[MitoticSlime]

I don't follow this statement.

I think he's saying that there's no evidence for the exclusivity claims, it is entirely based on faith. Please correct me if I'm misreading you, CV75.

[MitoticSlime]

oops, crosspost.

[CV75]

I think he's saying that there's no evidence for the exclusivity claims, it is entirely based on faith. Please correct me if I'm misreading you, CV75.

Yes--and the fruits of that faith, including testimony, the doctrine being fairly well laid out (Edit: and reasonable!)

Edited June 27, 2012 by CV75

[Senator]

You seem to have said that the LDS claim to exclusivity to the Gift of the Holy Ghost (beginning with the exclusive authority to bestow it) cannot be supported by physical evidence. Perhaps I misunderstood.

My response is that I agree, and that the LDS claim to exclusivity to the Gift of the Holy Ghost is based solely on faith in the doctrine, and the subjectively interpreted results of faith in that doctrine.

Agreed

[ERayR]

Can I add onto this the fact that if you're not living righteously the Holy Ghost won't be present. But non LDS don't believe this to be the case.

I don't know what you mean here but it just doesn't feel right to me. Please explain and maybe I will understand.

[ERayR]

We believe in our church that as members we have an added blessing of the gift of the holy ghost. That it is a constant companion to warn, testify, comfort, ect....

There are many good christians who are not members of the church who also seem to enjoy the same spiritual euphoria that good worthy members do.

1.) In what ways do Latter- Day Saints enjoy something greater or better or bigger or more profecient then what other good evangelicals or catholic or methidist enjoy?

2.) Since the percentage of members of the church is .2% of the worlds population, and only half of those are active. And of the half that are active and less then that would be worthy of that companionship. Does it make much sense to throw out this awesome blessing that only .08% of the world will enjoy. Does it seem a stretch to Say God is giving a very small minority of his children a gift that we say is so needed to get through this life on the straight and narrow path.

I realize my statistics are not proven but even adding .2 % still makes the question valid.

Help me to understand why if the Holy Ghost is so vital, God limits it only to worthy members of the church. And then what does this mean for non-latter-day saints. Also are we truly enjoying something greater then what non-members feel. Many good non-LDS christians recieve spiritual manifestations, warned of danger, partake in healings, directed to truth. What is the difference?

I have met some non-members who have learned to use the Holy Ghost quite extensively and regularly.

[ERayR]

One is a family member and the other merely a guest.

What percentage of salt does it take to leaven the whole loaf?

Salt does not leaven.

[JAHS]

One thing I believe that might be considered exclusive to LDS having the Gift of the Holy Ghost is the "Holy Spirit of Promise".

The "Holy Spirit of Promise" is the power by which all ordinances and other righteous acts performed on this earth, such as baptism and eternal marriage, are ratified, validated, and sealed in heaven as well as on earth, providing one continues to live up to the contracts made within the ordinances.

Anyone who is not LDS can certainly experience the influence of the Holy Ghost in their lives; otherwise we would never have any converts.

[CV75]

I don't know any examples of a non-LDS person having the Gift of the Holy Ghost. I was asking how we as LDS people can tell the difference between a manifestation of the Gift of the Holy Ghost and a manifestation of the Spirit that could be available to anyone. I honestly have never really known the difference, since I was born in the church and received the Goft of the Holy Ghost when I was 8. I didn't feel any differently when I did receive it, but then again the first experiences that I had that I attributed to the Spirit didn't happen until I was older.

Sorry, I seem to have overlooked your post...

While some of their overlapping manifestations may be or seem similar or the same, the difference between the Gift of the Holy Ghost (which entails the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost, which purifies and cleanses from sin) and the power of the Holy Ghost (which is not constant companionship but a time-limited experience) is that the gift is bestowed by the laying on of hands by one having proper priesthood authority to do so, and the power is conveyed directly, Spirit-to-spirit.

Not to confuse things, but I suppose it could be said that the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost is one manifestation of His power, and that the power of the Holy Ghost is perceived through a temporary companionship of sorts (otherwise how would they communicate?), but the power is not the right to have the constant companionship.

One may have the ordinance of confirmation and have the Gift of the Holy Ghost bestowed upon him, and yet not receive the Holy Ghost as a constant companion except by degrees over time. While doing so, he may from time to time experience the power of the Holy Ghost, for example, when praying for confirmation about a principle of truth or a decision, which can be done with or without the Gift of the Holy Ghost.

Referring back to the OP, there is an instance of what might be called “euphoria” (but with a clear purpose) in Helaman 5:44, which occurred by the action and power of the Holy Ghost (3 Nephi 9:20--assuming the Lamanites that Jesus mentions are the same as those 300 souls who witnessed with Nephi and Lehi some 65 years earlier), but not necessarily due to their having been given the Gift of the Holy Ghost. They were either baptized by fire without it, or perhaps had the Gift bestowed upon them earlier. In either case, the principles of faith in Christ and repentance were essential elements in this event. And this separates the Gift / constant companionship of the Holy Ghost as a means for purification and cleansing from sin and another way to access baptism by fre and by the Holy Ghost to accomplsih the same thing.

For the sake of this post, knowing the difference between the power, gift, companionship and baptism of/by the Holy Ghost, and that any of these terms do not automatically include the other, nor are necessarily mutually exclusive, helps a lot.

Can non-members experience what the 300 Lamanites did, and without the Gift of the Holy Ghost? Perhaps so, but it seems that the presence and testimony of authorized representatives of the Lord, acceptance of them and their message, real intent, and specific application of their instructions are necessary first. And then the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel must follow to fulfill all righteousness.

Edited June 27, 2012 by CV75