Warming center denied by folks in Kaysville Utah

[MiserereNobis]

16 hours ago, bluebell said:

Are you saying that the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has more money than the Catholic church?  (Sincere question, because I'm not sure I'm understanding you right).

Also, it seems like it's just the one poster talking about money, and he only gave a couple of reasons I think.  Did I miss another poster bringing up the same thing (also a sincere question)?

Perhaps it's not very accurate (?), but a google search of "richest church in the world" has the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints topping almost every website.

[MiserereNobis]

14 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

That’s not fair.

Hey, I didn't mean it sarcastically, but literally. It was a very Christian quote from the Book of Mormon. I thought it was great.

[Rain]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I think it's probably the 'temporary' part that allows our buildings to serve as emergency shelters but not warming centers.

In Wyoming, it is below 18 degrees pretty much every night from October to March (give or take a day here and there). It would also be a lot of days too during those months. In Utah, it probably wouldn't be every night, but it could be more nights than not in a winter month, depending on the year.  Our churches are used too much during the week for them to be warming centers as well, except for during emergency situations.  If a place needs regularly used warming shelters for the homeless, I don't see how the church can fill that need except under exceptional circumstances. 

It's good that Utah is trying to fill it at the state level, but citizens need to allow the state to do so within reason.  Maybe some people in Kaysville forgot their Christian mandate for a minute (or maybe they aren't Christian and don't believe they have a mandate, I don't know).  I hope the blow up on social media spurs some good conversations from people on both ends.

Are warming centers used at night? I know when my brother was staying at a homeless shelter he wasn't allowed to be there during the day.  That makes me wonder if there is also a shelter in Kaysville for people at night.

Edited December 28, 2024 by Rain

[MiserereNobis]

14 hours ago, Calm said:

I believe each diocese owns its own property independently in a legal sense, so legally you wouldn’t combine them with each other or Rome.  Catholics should correct me if I am mistaken.

One would need to compare all the buildings and other properties of the LDS Church to each individual diocese’s properties if one was looking at comparing actual organizations in the sense of what each diocese could choose to contribute charity wise in comparison to the LDS Church.

OTOH, if one wanted to just speak of a particular faith in a certain geographical area, that would be difficult to compare even if knowing all the individual dioceses’ wealth because the LDS Church is global in terms of ownership if I understand correctly (and I really may not, as it is an assumption based on how decision appear to be made from SLC) and would at least need to divide out the wealth held in the States in comparing the total wealth of Catholic Churches combined in the US.  But then there is the financial support the US side of the LDS Church sends to other countries where the Church has a deficit.  Do you include that funding in the American Churches’ wealth or exclude it as it is a constant expense?
 

This is correct. There is not a central organization that holds all the money. Each diocese is independent. In fact, there is a fundraiser for the Pope's initiatives called Peter's Pence, since he cannot simply move money around from other dioceses.

[Teancum]

On 12/27/2024 at 12:15 AM, Tacenda said:

This happened recently in my neck of the woods. In fact one of the ladies I play pickleball with was at this meeting and after watching it on the news it made me sick. And sad that my friend was part of the group at the meeting. Pretty sure they were nearly all LDS members since Kaysville is probably 98 percent LDS. 

https://www.ksl.com/article/51188954/kaysville-homeowners-show-up-in-large-numbers-to-oppose-warming-center

Also, in Utah there are homeless people freezing to death, literally because of the Utah law stating the homeless can be in the cold at 18 degrees until Code Blue is in effect. The surrounding states are at much higher degrees. 

https://www.fox13now.com/news/fox-13-investigates/fox-13-investigates-for-utahs-homeless-code-blue-is-colder-than-neighboring-states?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR0nwpLJ5wqVEpSIR503BIKrakL4mOhGjmkskQl6MJo2txzT4gNk2Rr4Bss_aem_3RGQWOkAIy5FVYAtdli1XQ

Makes me wonder why the church won't just open the doors for them to be warm in the empty churches which are nearly on every corner in Utah. Slight exaggeration. 

It is a poor reflection on the community. And I have no idea what the Church won't open doors in cold weather for the homeless.  Or maybe put some of that so called rainy day fund to work and build a few.  But it looks like people don't want them around where they live.

[MiserereNobis]

I was a little snarky with my money/rich comment. I apologize.

[Teancum]

On 12/27/2024 at 12:45 AM, Calm said:

Churches are not designed to safely house people.  Not enough bathrooms for one thing.  In an emergency sure, but on an ongoing basis, you are going to have problems.   It would be a very hard place to supervise to be sure everyone is safe since there are many small rooms where people can’t be watched if they are drifting in and out. You can’t close off part of the building.  Plus too many doors to keep an eye on. 
 

From what I am reading, warming centers are generally in public areas which makes better sense than churches imo.  Better to build buildings made for the task where they can be accessed easily and help staffed as needed with our volunteers.

Warming centers are preferential.  Church's could work fine in a short term emergency. There would need to be some sort of supervision and maybe even administration.  Other church's do this. I wonder how they manage it?

[Teancum]

On 12/27/2024 at 1:54 AM, ZealouslyStriving said:

From  the article:

"The people that are coming to these homeless shelters do not want help," she yelled. "They're drug addicts. They do horrific things. I have small children. This is not why we elected you.""

Mosiah 4:

"16 And also, ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish.

17 Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just—

18 But I say unto you, O man, whosoever doeth this the same hath great cause to repent; and except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perisheth forever, and hath no interest in the kingdom of God."

** Apparently this years study of the Book of Mormon had little affect [for a portion of] Kaysville.

😢

Boy we agree with this one. Also the reason many homeless are drug addicts is because of the horrible way we as a society manage and work with addicts.  But that is a topic for another thread.

[Teancum]

On 12/27/2024 at 3:30 AM, Mfbnew said:

Nobody's going to die at least of the cold around here. 

Really?  Where do you live.  Utah?  If yes Utah gets cold enough at times for someone to die of exposure.  How cold do you think it needs to be?

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Really?  Where do you live.  Utah?  If yes Utah gets cold enough at times for someone to die of exposure.  How cold do you think it needs to be?

He lives in LA

[Teancum]

Just now, Calm said:

He lives in LA

Thanks.  Makes sense now.

[Tacenda]

On 12/27/2024 at 1:30 AM, Mfbnew said:

Do what they do in other states- a bad policy too, but a well known fact- give them all a bus ticket to Los Angeles.

Nobody's going to die at least of the cold around here. 

But perhaps the worst problems of the "unhoused"- supposedly a more politically correct term hereabouts,-  leading to many deaths is crime and violence.   You cannot believe the sheer volume of folks hereabouts without places to live until you see literal MILES of one tent or RV after another covering the downtown area. 

Our problem is housing those who come from other states to avoid the exact problem you are discussing - but I certainly admit that if I were in the same position as those folks are- I would be here myself.

And then we have the poor folks who make it across the border who are not threatened by weather- just the cartels.  The choice is literally the devil or if not the "deep blue sea"- then the choice is the devil or the devil.

What a wonderful world we have created for ourselves!  

And then you see the sweet children playing among the tents....   😥

 

 

 

My son's fiance's father was homeless and she talks about her and her ex husband searching for him on Salt Lake's streets and how they came upon a frozen person and called the police and stayed until the report was finished and the body/bodies were retrieved. She told us about this over the holiday, I had no idea about her father, she was adopted when she was 9 I believe. Foster care before that because of her mother not being able to take care of her properly. She has only had contact with her birth father for a short time. In my memory, it was only a few days ago she told us this, but I want to say there were more. Maybe it was this incident in the link. I'd have to ask her. But this does happen, sadly.

https://www.fox13now.com/news/local-news/vigil-held-in-pioneer-park-for-record-high-deaths-from-freezing-conditions

Edited December 28, 2024 by Tacenda

[bluebell]

8 hours ago, Rain said:

Are warming centers used at night? I know when my brother was staying at a homeless shelter he wasn't allowed to be there during the day.  That makes me wonder if there is also a shelter in Kaysville for people at night.

There are no shelters in Kaysville that I'm aware of.  If there was one, it was pretty well hidden.  None in layton that I know of either, but Ogden had at least one i think (maybe more).  Other than the Ogden one the only one's I knew of were in SLC.

[JAHS]

44 minutes ago, bluebell said:

There are no shelters in Kaysville that I'm aware of.  If there was one, it was pretty well hidden.  None in layton that I know of either, but Ogden had at least one i think (maybe more).  Other than the Ogden one the only one's I knew of were in SLC.

Ogden Rescue Mission Inc
2775 Wall Avenue · (801) 399-3058
Open 24 hours

Lantern House
269 W 33rd St · (801) 621-5036
Open 24 hours

Family Promise of Ogden
256 24th St 

[bluebell]

11 hours ago, JAHS said:

Ogden Rescue Mission Inc
2775 Wall Avenue · (801) 399-3058
Open 24 hours

Lantern House
269 W 33rd St · (801) 621-5036
Open 24 hours

Family Promise of Ogden
256 24th St 

That makes sense.  Ogden is over 87,000 people and Kaysville is around 32,000.  Plus Ogden is a city in it's own right and Kaysville is mostly just houses with a "downtown" that is 2 blocks long

[Bernard Gui]

20 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Hey, I didn't mean it sarcastically, but literally. It was a very Christian quote from the Book of Mormon. I thought it was great.

Thanks. Sorry for reading it wrong.

Quoting scripture to shame people raises my hackles. We all fall short. 

Edited December 29, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

21 hours ago, california boy said:

When we always point to others to solve the problem, then that is when the problem is never really solved.  

Powerful people are constantly demanding less taxes for event the rich.  The mantra is, they earned the money, they should be able to keep it for themselves.  

How do we justify confiscating what they have earned?

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

How do we justify confiscating what they have earned?

Would you be okay with the rich paying higher percentage of taxes if it was shown they benefited more in savings by not having to pay directly for services provided by the government, both through personal usage like personal car driving on roads and roadways etc transporting goods and services for them, sewage, etc; social ones like benefitting from a higher educated population in general; benefitting businesswise as educated employees are less likely to be injured, better producers, etc.

Edited December 29, 2024 by Calm

[Bernard Gui]

On 12/28/2024 at 1:35 AM, Rain said:

Any needed positions.

Edit: This thread has quite a few posts from various people about these kinds of positions and how some are paid and some are not etc.  This is what I am referring to.  It's half the conversation of this thread. 

Could you name some that you think the Church should fund?

[Bernard Gui]

22 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Perhaps it's not very accurate (?), but a google search of "richest church in the world" has the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints topping almost every website.

I shout “Hallelujah!” whenever I hear of the Church’s successes and the resulting ability to do good with it. What great blessings have been poured out by the Lord as a resuscitation the Saints’ observing the law of tithing! The windows of heaven have truly been opened as promised!

Edited December 29, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

How do we justify confiscating what they have earned?

Because they didn’t earn it. The rich do not work that much harder (if they work harder at all) and certainly not at a ratio matching their compensation.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Because they didn’t earn it. The rich do not work that much harder (if they work harder at all) and certainly not at a ratio matching their compensation.

And they certainly didn’t earn it on their own. They trade in state issued currencies. Use state built infrastructure. Rely on state funded education for their employees. Emergency services. The list goes on and on. The idea that the rich would still be rich without the society around them and that therefore they don’t owe said society anything is stupid beyond belief. 

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

How do we justify confiscating what they have earned?

Basically the very rich billionaires may have earned the starting amounts but after you get so much you literally don't have to do a thing if you've invested it. Trickle down theory was hogwash too.

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I shout “Hallelujah!” whenever I hear of the Church’s successes and the resulting ability to do good with it. What great blessings have been poured out by the Lord as a resuscitation the Saints’ observing the law of tithing! The windows of heaven have truly been opened as promised!

I just wonder if God is that pleased sometimes with the wealth being the way it is.

[california boy]

4 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

How do we justify confiscating what they have earned?

A couple of things.  You might want to read this article to understand what is going on.  

Quote

How much tax a wealthy person owes in a given year is a complex tapestry threaded with exemptions, deductions, credits, and obscure loopholes you’ve never heard of. The ideal is to owe zilch. If that sounds impossible to achieve, just look at the leaked tax returns of the wealthiest Americansthat nonprofit news site ProPublica analyzed in 2021: Over several years, billionaires Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, and Michael Bloomberg, among others, paid no federal income taxes at all.

When you can afford to pay the very best tax lawyers, and accountants that can shift your money around to prevent you from paying taxes, then you understand that it is not a level playing field.  There are a huge number of special tax benefits that really only favor the rich.  

Also, how much money wealthy people make is not at all the same as the regular working stiff.  

I remember having lunch with a very wealthy client that I was doing some marketing for at a restaurant that was part of a very upscale shopping center he owned.  He looked out the window at a vacant hillside across the street from where we were having lunch.  He tells me he bought that property earlier in the month for 8 million dollars and last week sold it for 11 million dollars.  He made 3 million dollars from literally paper transactions.  Yes he was very smart and maybe a little lucky.  But. think about how much blood, sweat and tears it would take an average worker to make that kind of money.  Should one man be taxed often at a much cheaper rate because of loopholes and exploring the tax system than the guy that shows up every day to work even when he is sick in order to feed his family?  Should the working stiff pay a higher percentage of his income because he can't afford a high priced tax attorney just because the ones with the gold make the rules?  

I also want to add this.  The guy didn't add any value to the property to sell it for 3 million more than he bought it for less than a month ago.  He only added value to his bank account.  In doing so, the developer that bought the property has to add 3 million dollars as an added expense when he finally developes the land, which means higher cost in housing.  Ultimately that filters down to the very subject of this thread.  How to deal with the homeless.  

 

Edited December 29, 2024 by california boy