Warming center denied by folks in Kaysville Utah

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Maybe it keeps them young? Or not. Sounds like they have a great son!!

They have found seniors who stay involved (in volunteer work iirc) stay alive longer than those who treat retirement as more or less a vacation (my paraphrase of course).  So yes, it may be keeping many young even if we can’t say for a particular person.

Humans need to be needed, imo.

[Tacenda]

deleted

Edited December 28, 2024 by Tacenda

[Tacenda]

5 hours ago, Mfbnew said:

Since this is ONE problem we don't have- how does one have a "warming center" in which- if one just happens to fall asleep- does NOT become a "shelter" ?

If I were in that situation I can easily imagine myself stopping by to "get warm", and just "accidentally" take a little nap of - oh eight hours or so... 

So what's the deal?   Does that happen?

I think it's a little different, as it's only when the temp is extremely cold, here's a link:

https://www.daviscountyutah.gov/ced/grants-and-community-development/code-blue#:~:text=The Davis County Warming Center is just that!,Code Blue is in effect.

Edited December 28, 2024 by Tacenda

[Mfbnew]

2 hours ago, Rain said:

Why do I only hear about things like this from LDS churches?  Real question. Since 2019 I've become very aware of what other churches and congregations are doing for the homeless and others. So many have kitchens and actually use them for cooking. I've been a part of helping them with it.  I know of many of the concerns as I have seen them. And yet people from these churches talk more about the feeling of welcoming people into their homes and churches and get ready to do it again and again.  Instead of removing the stove they hire someone to make sure the rules are followed and the building is secure. 

I have loved knowing when the church donates to the efforts of these other churches.  I also think that it is wise for the church to support efforts that are already on the ground when it's available. Those are important things to consider. I love Just Serve and the messaging to go serve. I just don't understand the hands off idea when it comes to its buildings.

 

Quite frankly, I think the difference - IF there actually is one, is that we do not have a "professional" leadership and so many people have keys etc to the church, that they would have to have some kind of system to watch over the keys themselves.   And yes, they do, but this person needs the keys because people play basketball on Thursday nights, Tuesday nights another activity happens, on Saturdays we have Ward cleanup,  then there is this activity and that activity - AND this then happens in one building with 4 or even 5 wards using the same building.

And then the turnover of 5 or 10 people who "need" keys- per ward- justifiably-  yet there are 4 wards-  how does one monitor security for one building when perhaps one hundred people on a varying schedule have keys- temporarily- which are then passed on their successor on a regular basis!!??

It is a miracle that these buildings aren't ransacked daily!   Why not?  GOOD PEOPLE !

And would you like YOUR tithing money go into some fancy security company to monitor all this for you?   Or do you want to be the person who comes at 10pm nightly to assure the building is locked?   Do you want to be the person who gets to kick 10 or 15 boys playing basketball, out of the building?  And of course you better be fluent in all the languages of all the wards legitimately using the same building.  Maybe a little Chinese when the Chinese kids are playing, Spanish for that ward, and then there are the Tongans .....

Then people would complain about wasting their money on professional guards?

Ain't gonna happen.

Yes we are rough around the edges, but I affirm the importance of having a rotating amateur leadership, so we can ALL learn what it takes to run a church, and be loving yet as "tough" one needs to be dealing with people who may be amateurs, but with good hearts!

If you could get out the "rules" to everyone who MIGHT use the stove- which is virtually impossible for us, it would be nice, but that is not realistically possible.  When I was bishop it was like another 40 hour per week job.

I was not a "Pastor" and getting paid for my extra job as happens in other Christian churches- but I would not have changed those experiences for anything!

What you learn as a "leader" can be life-changing, and I think that is why we pass the "opportunity" around as much as we can!

 

 

[ZealouslyStriving]

12 minutes ago, Mfbnew said:

Quite frankly, I think the difference - IF there actually is one, is that we do not have a "professional" leadership and so many people have keys etc to the church, that they would have to have some kind of system to watch over the keys themselves.   And yes, they do, but this person needs the keys because people play basketball on Thursday nights, Tuesday nights another activity happens, on Saturdays we have Ward cleanup,  then there is this activity and that activity - AND this then happens in one building with 4 or even 5 wards using the same building.

And then the turnover of 5 or 10 people who "need" keys- per ward- justifiably-  yet there are 4 wards-  how does one monitor security for one building when perhaps one hundred people on a varying schedule have keys- temporarily- which are then passed on their successor on a regular basis!!??

It is a miracle that these buildings aren't ransacked daily!   Why not?  GOOD PEOPLE !

And would you like YOUR tithing money go into some fancy security company to monitor all this for you?   Or do you want to be the person who comes at 10pm nightly to assure the building is locked?   Do you want to be the person who gets to kick 10 or 15 boys playing basketball, out of the building?  And of course you better be fluent in all the languages of all the wards legitimately using the same building.  Maybe a little Chinese when the Chinese kids are playing, Spanish for that ward, and then there are the Tongans .....

Then people would complain about wasting their money on professional guards?

Ain't gonna happen.

Yes we are rough around the edges, but I affirm the importance of having a rotating amateur leadership, so we can ALL learn what it takes to run a church, and be loving yet as "tough" one needs to be dealing with people who may be amateurs, but with good hearts!

If you could get out the "rules" to everyone who MIGHT use the stove- which is virtually impossible for us, it would be nice, but that is not realistically possible.  When I was bishop it was like another 40 hour per week job.

I was not a "Pastor" and getting paid for my extra job as happens in other Christian churches- but I would not have changed those experiences for anything!

What you learn as a "leader" can be life-changing, and I think that is why we pass the "opportunity" around as much as we can!

 

 

Agreed. The paid positions aspect of mainline Christian denominations make it easier for them to do the things we are discussing. That is why I believe we should make an even greater effort to work with existing efforts- particularly Catholic Charities.

[Rain]

2 hours ago, Mfbnew said:

Quite frankly, I think the difference - IF there actually is one, is that we do not have a "professional" leadership and so many people have keys etc to the church, that they would have to have some kind of system to watch over the keys themselves.   And yes, they do, but this person needs the keys because people play basketball on Thursday nights, Tuesday nights another activity happens, on Saturdays we have Ward cleanup,  then there is this activity and that activity - AND this then happens in one building with 4 or even 5 wards using the same building.

And then the turnover of 5 or 10 people who "need" keys- per ward- justifiably-  yet there are 4 wards-  how does one monitor security for one building when perhaps one hundred people on a varying schedule have keys- temporarily- which are then passed on their successor on a regular basis!!??

That makes sense.

2 hours ago, Mfbnew said:

It is a miracle that these buildings aren't ransacked daily!   Why not?  GOOD PEOPLE !

And would you like YOUR tithing money go into some fancy security company to monitor all this for you?   

If it meant that the wards and stakes were helping the needy like I see other churches do, then yes. 

2 hours ago, Mfbnew said:

Or do you want to be the person who comes at 10pm nightly to assure the building is locked?   Do you want to be the person who gets to kick 10 or 15 boys playing basketball, out of the building?  And of course you better be fluent in all the languages of all the wards legitimately using the same building.  Maybe a little Chinese when the Chinese kids are playing, Spanish for that ward, and then there are the Tongans .....

Then people would complain about wasting their money on professional guards?

Ain't gonna happen.

Yes we are rough around the edges, but I affirm the importance of having a rotating amateur leadership, so we can ALL learn what it takes to run a church, and be loving yet as "tough" one needs to be dealing with people who may be amateurs, but with good hearts!

If you could get out the "rules" to everyone who MIGHT use the stove- which is virtually impossible for us, it would be nice, but that is not realistically possible.  When I was bishop it was like another 40 hour per week job.

I was not a "Pastor" and getting paid for my extra job as happens in other Christian churches- but I would not have changed those experiences for anything!

What you learn as a "leader" can be life-changing, and I think that is why we pass the "opportunity" around as much as we can!

 

 

 

Edited December 28, 2024 by Rain

[Rain]

16 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Agreed. The paid positions aspect of mainline Christian denominations make it easier for them to do the things we are discussing. That is why I believe we should make an even greater effort to work with existing efforts- particularly Catholic Charities.

That brought something to mind. With the charity work I do I learned that the church was paying the salary of a different church's charitable worker here in Arizona. If the church can pay for other churches to have charitable workers I'm not sure why it can't hire their own workers for the things we are talking about in this thread.

[MiserereNobis]

For the richest church in America and probably the world, there are a lot of reasons here about not doing things in order to save money. 

[ZealouslyStriving]

8 minutes ago, Rain said:

That brought something to mind. With the charity work I do I learned that the church was paying the salary of a different church's charitable worker here in Arizona. If the church can pay for other churches to have charitable workers I'm not sure why it can't hire their own workers for the things we are talking about in this thread.

Fair point.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Mfbnew said:

is that we do not have a "professional" leadership

I think this makes a huge difference.  There would have to be people available 24/7 with professional standards and possibly current certification for some local areas even if not everywhere and this is unlikely to be able to be consistently covered by even senior missionary volunteers who do a lot of the professional stuff in the Church in my understanding (for example, my dad was asked to volunteer to handle the physical facilities at BYU when he first retired and moved to Provo, though he didn’t get the details, so perhaps it was more for the church activities side of things rather than BYU itself as it seems highly unlikely BYU wouldn’t hire someone…my dad had been one of those in charge of the main United Airlines plane maintenance facilities in San Francisco, so he was qualified).

Aren’t our facilities maintenance people parttime volunteers too?

I think it possible, but it requires a change of mindset and that can take a long while in the Church unless it comes from the top.

Edited December 28, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

56 minutes ago, Rain said:

That brought something to mind. With the charity work I do I learned that the church was paying the salary of a different church's charitable worker here in Arizona. If the church can pay for other churches to have charitable workers I'm not sure why it can't hire their own workers for the things we are talking about in this thread.

My guess is in the past it was seen as sufficient to help through others, there didn’t need to be additional services.  The other churches would have their charitable services whether or not we had ours, so it made sense given the volunteer mentality to support rather than run such services.  The need appears to have grown though and it may make sense to get more hands on as a church depending on the needs of an area now.  However, if our stake started its own services, my guess is the current charities that the stake asks for wards to support here in Mapleton would like struggle, so even if we start paying our own people, they could still work through nonChurch organizations to avoid causing problems for established, mostly functioning charities that just may need help with expanding.

 I do prefer not to see unnecessary duplication so more money can get to the actual ones in need.  For example, I have thought it silly to run separate troops for wards rather than combine wards where they were smaller especially when leadership was lacking.  They had to rely on me to be a Den mother/Akela, that is desperation.  I went and took required expensive training which wasn’t even used for the most part because the Church did things differently and I really struggled to get badges done for the kids.  Because we had a budget and I had to take the training, there were things from the Scout shop that would have helped with badges a lot that I could not afford to buy….which I could have if I could have skipped the training as only an assistant.  Another ward had a very knowledgeable Cub Scout leader that I would have loved to work under instead of being left on my own.  The stake building was 15 minutes from our chapel, so easily managed.  I think it would have been much more meaningful for the boys.  Thankfully, the older scouts who met in the evenings had men who excelled in Scouts, my son had the best time in Scouts.

PS:  I loooove that we are helping out another church’s good work even to the point of paying a salary.  That makes such good sense to me on multiple levels.  Smaller churches may need help fulfilling what they see as their mission of service and it is a good thing to help them do that, imo, rather than having to make do with what they see would be a partial and therefore not as successful work.

Edited December 28, 2024 by Calm

[bluebell]

48 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

For the richest church in America and probably the world, there are a lot of reasons here about not doing things in order to save money. 

Are you saying that the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has more money than the Catholic church?  (Sincere question, because I'm not sure I'm understanding you right).

Also, it seems like it's just the one poster talking about money, and he only gave a couple of reasons I think.  Did I miss another poster bringing up the same thing (also a sincere question)?

[Rain]

49 minutes ago, Calm said:

My guess is in the past it was seen as sufficient to help through others, there didn’t need to be additional services.  The other churches would have their charitable services whether or not we had ours, so it made sense given the volunteer mentality to support rather than run such services.  The need appears to have grown though and it may make sense to get more hands on as a church depending on the needs of an area now.  However, if our stake started its own services, my guess is the current charities that the stake asks for wards to support here in Mapleton would like struggle, so even if we start paying our own people, they could still work through nonChurch organizations to avoid causing problems for established, mostly functioning charities that just may need help with expanding.

 I do prefer not to see unnecessary duplication so more money can get to the actual ones in need.

Oh me too. Here is where I really saw a need for the church not to just give money. A few ago we had a bit of a crises here.  So many churches, big and small, were taking turns. But not this church.  It was donating money and members were giving time to charities and other churches, but I know of no ward or stake that would take their turn with the hardest to provide need of shelter.

49 minutes ago, Calm said:

 For example, I have thought it silly to run separate troops for wards rather than combine wards where they were smaller especially when leadership was lacking.  They had to rely on me to be a Den mother/Akela, that is desperation.  I went and took required expensive training which wasn’t even used for the most part because the Church did things differently and I really struggled to get badges done for the kids.  Because we had a budget and I had to take the training, there were things from the Scout shop that would have helped with badges a lot that I could not afford to buy….which I could have if I could have skipped the training as only an assistant.  Another ward had a very knowledgeable Cub Scout leader that I would have loved to work under instead of being left on my own.  The stake building was 15 minutes from our chapel, so easily managed.  I think it would have been much more meaningful for the boys.  Thankfully, the older scouts who met in the evenings had men who excelled in Scouts, my son had the best time in Scouts.

PS:  I loooove that we are helping out another church’s good work even to the point of paying a salary.  That makes such good sense to me on multiple levels.  Smaller churches may need help fulfilling what they see as their mission of service and it is a good thing to help them do that, imo, rather than having to make do with what they see would be a partial and therefore not as successful work.

 

Edited December 28, 2024 by Rain

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

For the richest church in America and probably the world, there are a lot of reasons here about not doing things in order to save money. 

Due to the Catholic Church’s secrecy concerning its finances exact figures concerning the full extent of its wealth cannot be precisely determined, but the Catholic Church’s is generally considered to be a wealthier church than the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. From a recent article…

Who is richer, the Catholic Church or the Mormon Church?

The Catholic Church is generally considered wealthier than the Mormon Church. The Catholic Church’s wealth is estimated to be significantly higher, with its vast real estate holdings, art, and investments. However, it should be noted that the exact comparison of their wealth is difficult due to the secrecy of the Catholic Church’s finances.

A link to the full article: https://www.ncesc.com/geographic-faq/is-the-catholic-church-the-wealthiest-organization-in-the-world/

[Rain]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Are you saying that the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has more money than the Catholic church?  (Sincere question, because I'm not sure I'm understanding you right).

I think the key word in his quote is probably "America".  I know I did a double take with it and thought of Catholics, but if you limit it to America in some way (I'm not sure how) then it may work.

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Also, it seems like it's just the one poster talking about money, and he only gave a couple of reasons I think.  Did I miss another poster bringing up the same thing (also a sincere question)?

 

[bluebell]

29 minutes ago, Rain said:

I think the key word in his quote is probably "America".  I know I did a double take with it and thought of Catholics, but if you limit it to America in some way (I'm not sure how) then it may work.

 

I thought that at first too, but then after the America part he says "and probably the world".

Edit to add:  it's not really relevant to the topic being discussed, it was just a surprising comment if I was understanding it correctly as I thought it was always assumed by Catholics (and everyone else) that the Catholic church was richer.  It's been amassing wealth for over a thousand years and all (which is not a judgment against them, just a statement of fact).

Edited December 28, 2024 by bluebell

[bluebell]

43 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

it should be noted that the exact comparison of their wealth is difficult due to the secrecy of the Catholic Church’s finances.

 

And I'm sure due to the secrecy of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints finances as well.

[Bernard Gui]

7 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

That’s a great quote from the Book of Mormon. Very Christian. 

That’s not fair.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

Here is where I really saw a need for the church not to just give money.

I wonder if a crisis intervention type of group could be formed to step in and help with the hard stuff when it gets too much for the local groups with the understanding it would be stepping back in a certain amount of time.  The only issue I see with that is what happens if the presence of help draws those in need.  What is going to happen if it’s only temporary to those who are counting on the support to get by?

I assume in the case of homelessness where a good percentage (2/3 according to one study I looked at) are those with significant mental health issues handling change is not easy.

Edited December 28, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

I think the key word in his quote is probably "America".  I know I did a double take with it and thought of Catholics, but if you limit it to America in some way (I'm not sure how) then it may work.

 

I believe each diocese owns its own property independently in a legal sense, so legally you wouldn’t combine them with each other or Rome.  Catholics should correct me if I am mistaken.

One would need to compare all the buildings and other properties of the LDS Church to each individual diocese’s properties if one was looking at comparing actual organizations in the sense of what each diocese could choose to contribute charity wise in comparison to the LDS Church.

OTOH, if one wanted to just speak of a particular faith in a certain geographical area, that would be difficult to compare even if knowing all the individual dioceses’ wealth because the LDS Church is global in terms of ownership if I understand correctly (and I really may not, as it is an assumption based on how decision appear to be made from SLC) and would at least need to divide out the wealth held in the States in comparing the total wealth of Catholic Churches combined in the US.  But then there is the financial support the US side of the LDS Church sends to other countries where the Church has a deficit.  Do you include that funding in the American Churches’ wealth or exclude it as it is a constant expense?
 

Edited December 28, 2024 by Calm

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Just a reflection on the portion of Kaysville that is of the same mind as the woman quoted.

* Because they have fallen into drug addiction, they don't deserve not to freeze to death? What in their past contributed the them turning to drugs- abuse growing up? Mental disorder? 

* "They" do horrific things. You mean like the countless homeless I've personally observed helping each other move their belongings so that their only worldly possessions don't get thrown away by us?

 No one says they deserve to freeze to death.

Having had a close family member living on the streets for seven years and another very close to being homeless has given me some insight into the problems the face. Doing or experiencing horrifying things is one of them. 

Edited December 28, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[MustardSeed]

10 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

That’s not fair.

I can assure you this is precisely how social media reacted to this a month ago when it poured through.  Fair or not, people were disgusted with the “Mormon” vitriol displayed in that gathering.  

[Tacenda]

23 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I understand that there are youth events at the churches so that wouldn't be advisable to have homeless at the churches at that time. So it's a difficult situation for sure.

Quoting myself, because it's not just homeless that would use the warming centers. It could be someone whose furnace is on the brink or it could be someone who couldn't afford their heating bill. 

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, Rain said:

That's why I have my question above.  All thse things are things other churches need to look at as well, but I know many who still do it.  

@Calm's suggestion that maybe it's because the church is self insured is a possibility. Most of the church’s that are cooking or are caring for the needy are smaller churches so they are unlikely to be self insured, but they would also more likely find the insurance was a heavy burden. I'll have to try to remember to ask my friend who did this kind of stuff at one of the larger churches how it worked there.

The homeless shelter where Sister Gui and I have volunteered has security at the door and does background checks on everyone wanting to stay there. They are extremely security conscious. 

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, Doctor Steuss said:

I wonder what the threshold is, exactly when it comes to limiting things because of "sanitary issues" and "liability"?

When I was active, off the top of my head at chapels, I stood on a 20-foot ladder to replace light bulbs, act as security during evening events, pull weeds from the landscaping in 115 degree heat, push an industrial vacuum machine, and scrub fecal material off toilets.  At the Church-owned warms springs ranch, I've poured concrete, dug ditches, cleared weeds from ditches with fast running water, cut down trees, emptied and/or filled in outhouse holes, etc.  When it comes to Church sanctioned service projects, outside of Church-owned properties, I've torn off and replaced shingles on a 2-story roof, leaned over the edge of a 4-story building (local museum) to paint over graffiti, cleaned kitchens, cooked meals, cleaned some of the most disgusting restrooms imaginable (if you think men have bad aim in general, wait until you have to clean restrooms at a center for the blind).  I've also held callings that required me to get CPR certification and a background check.

That’s laudable. Sounds like things active LDS do on a regular basis.

 

Edited December 28, 2024 by Bernard Gui