Warming center denied by folks in Kaysville Utah

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Mfbnew said:

Since this is ONE problem we don't have- how does one have a "warming center" in which- if one just happens to fall asleep- does NOT become a "shelter" ?

If I were in that situation I can easily imagine myself stopping by to "get warm", and just "accidentally" take a little nap of - oh eight hours or so... 

So what's the deal?   Does that happen?

I'm totally new to the concept but think it's only when the temperature hits 18 or below degrees. 

[MiserereNobis]

2 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Our Elder's Quorum just assembled a bunch of "kits" for Ward members to hand out.

We have that as well: Benedict Bags (after St. Benedict Joseph Labre, patron saint of the homeless). They contain hygiene items, socks and such, snacks, food gift certificates, etc., and a card with a prayer to St. Benedict on one side and info on the Catholic food pantry (to which the LDS often donate) on the other. 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

cheap and widely-available and de facto / de jure legalized use of previously illicit drugs is making the situation even worse than it was originally.  This not only materially contributes to the creation of homelessness (because drug-addled people tend to not be dependable, ergo not work, ergo not make money, ergo not provide for themselves, ergo become homeless), it prolongs and entrenches it.

 

Am interested in this, do you have a source documenting the contribution to increased homelessness?

[Rain]

1 hour ago, Mfbnew said:

True!

Our Ward building also happens to be the Stake Center, but we do not serve steak. 

BUT the kitchen has actually had most of the cooking devices- stoves etc.- removed due to every "Tom **** and Harry" member deciding to use it with or without permission, resulting in chronic "false alarms"- which finally caused the Stake to be charged a few thousand dollars- after a few years of this going on.   

Sometimes folks with keys might forget to lock up, and "unhoused" people would end up using the facilities available.

Many of the causes of these false alarms started "legitimately" in intent but end up differently  :"Let's have a ward dinner and just use the kitchen to heat everything"- but forget to change the emergency alarm systems, etc. due to having no knowledge of the "rules" involved.

The Hook and Ladders would roll, sirens blaring, and the neighbors - for some reason-  were getting fed up too.   It was becoming a continuing problem.

Poof!  The stove disappeared from the "kitchen"!  (It was removed)

Yes indeed !

That one needed to be said twice!

Why do I only hear about things like this from LDS churches?  Real question. Since 2019 I've become very aware of what other churches and congregations are doing for the homeless and others. So many have kitchens and actually use them for cooking. I've been a part of helping them with it.  I know of many of the concerns as I have seen them. And yet people from these churches talk more about the feeling of welcoming people into their homes and churches and get ready to do it again and again.  Instead of removing the stove they hire someone to make sure the rules are followed and the building is secure. 

I have loved knowing when the church donates to the efforts of these other churches.  I also think that it is wise for the church to support efforts that are already on the ground when it's available. Those are important things to consider. I love Just Serve and the messaging to go serve. I just don't understand the hands off idea when it comes to its buildings.

 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

Why do I only hear about things like this from LDS churches?  Real question. Since 2019 I've become very aware of what other churches and congregations are doing for the homeless and others. So many have kitchens and actually use them for cooking. I've been a part of helping them with it.  I know of many of the concerns as I have seen them. And yet people from these churches talk more about the feeling of welcoming people into their homes and churches and get ready to do it again and again.  Instead of removing the stove they hire someone to make sure the rules are followed and the building is secure. 

I have loved knowing when the church donates to the efforts of these other churches.  I also think that it is wise for the church to support efforts that are already on the ground when it's available. Those are important things to consider. I love Just Serve and the messaging to go serve. I just don't understand the hands off idea when it comes to its buildings.

 

About 25 (edited to add 5 years, where has the time gone?) years ago I heard (can’t remember how authoritative the source was, might even have been grapevine….I think it was a bishop explaining the whys when I was the building coordinator handing out keys) the Church keeps costs down two ways in regards to use of the kitchens.  One is in order to allow a fully operating kitchen they would have to meet significant costly code requirements.  By not allowing more than warming of foods, they save massive amounts of money and the need for professional oversight of buildings.  Second, the Church self insures and if there isn’t cooking in the kitchen there are less incidents they need to cover.  It does not surprise me based on what I heard the response to people not properly using the kitchen and creating false alarms (I assume by producing smoke by burning what they are cooking) is to remove the stove.  

The money they save by doing the above theoretically could help provide more food for places already set up for food services than they could produce by setting up a food service capable kitchen in our buildings because a large percentage of the funding has to go to the kitchen setup, having a professional on staff, etc.

Now whether the money saved goes to other food banks and kitchens, whether it goes to something else or whether they give much more than what is saved I have no clue.

Quote

I just don't understand the hands off idea when it comes to its buildings.

It would be interesting to compare usage of kitchen and community commitment and sense of belonging between congregations of different faiths as well as same faiths who have more active kitchens vs those who leave that out of their communities as well as the amount of funding that goes directly to those in need.

I would love to see a sign in each LDS building kitchen (I feel like this would be a good use for the term “warming center” rather than “kitchen” given the actual absence of cooking in such places  ) that said “by not cooking in this kitchen, we are able to donate $ _____ this year to the ______ Food Bank, thank you for helping us do so by respecting the rules).  Ain’t going to happen, of course.

Edited December 27, 2024 by Calm

[ZealouslyStriving]

39 minutes ago, Rain said:

Why do I only hear about things like this from LDS churches?  Real question. Since 2019 I've become very aware of what other churches and congregations are doing for the homeless and others. So many have kitchens and actually use them for cooking. I've been a part of helping them with it.  I know of many of the concerns as I have seen them. And yet people from these churches talk more about the feeling of welcoming people into their homes and churches and get ready to do it again and again.  Instead of removing the stove they hire someone to make sure the rules are followed and the building is secure. 

I have loved knowing when the church donates to the efforts of these other churches.  I also think that it is wise for the church to support efforts that are already on the ground when it's available. Those are important things to consider. I love Just Serve and the messaging to go serve. I just don't understand the hands off idea when it comes to its buildings.

 

Middle management lawyers at the Church Office Building.

I think we should embrace a full- throated partnership with Catholic Charities.

[Bernard Gui]

17 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I understand that there are youth events at the churches so that wouldn't be advisable to have homeless at the churches at that time. So it's a difficult situation for sure.

Liabilities, insurance, sanitary issues, ID verification, property protection, health screening, medical assistance, safety enforcement., etc.  Who would be responsible?

Edited December 27, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[Calm]

Anyone who has older member friends or family, ask them if they remember if we were ever allowed to actually prepare more than sandwiches in ward kitchens.  I vaguely remember as a kid some very bustling actual cooking of meals at Ward parties, but I don’t know if that was just a kid’s view of the final touches of a potluck dinner or what.  We lived in a ward with quite a few Samoan families when I was 6 and younger and ward parties just seemed different to me back then, but it might have been more my own family’s involvement as we moved to a ward in a suburb of Chicago when I was 7 and my mom’s health collapsed leading to less involvement at church (ten minutes drive to church changing into 45 minutes made a big difference as well in our attendance to activities, I am guessing).

I am wondering if the rules changed when Pres Tanner came in and saved the Church from bankruptcy.  I would have been 5 at that time.

[Bernard Gui]

15 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

From  the article:

"The people that are coming to these homeless shelters do not want help," she yelled. "They're drug addicts. They do horrific things. I have small children. This is not why we elected you.""

Mosiah 4:

"16 And also, ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish.

17 Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just—

18 But I say unto you, O man, whosoever doeth this the same hath great cause to repent; and except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perisheth forever, and hath no interest in the kingdom of God."

** Apparently this years study of the Book of Mormon had little affect [for a portion of] Kaysville.

😢

There are ways to help that are safe and effective. No need to judge Kaysville. 

[ZealouslyStriving]

9 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

There are ways to help that are safe and effective. No need to judge Kaysville. 

Just a reflection on the portion of Kaysville that is of the same mind as the woman quoted.

* Because they have fallen into drug addiction, they don't deserve not to freeze to death? What in their past contributed the them turning to drugs- abuse growing up? Mental disorder? 

* "They" do horrific things. You mean like the countless homeless I've personally observed helping each other move their belongings so that their only worldly possessions don't get thrown away by us?

Edited December 27, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving

[Rain]

37 minutes ago, Calm said:

About 20 years ago I heard (can’t remember how authoritative the source was, might even have been grapevine

When I was ward chairman I looked into all the reasons given to me at the time and they didn't prove to be true. One was that is was the law that you needed special permits. It wasn't true - you only needed the permits in Utah at the time if you were selling food (which makes me laugh, because later I had to get permits for Festival of Trees because we were selling food). It was also supposed to be in the handbook, but at least at that time it wasn't. 

37 minutes ago, Calm said:

….I think it was a bishop explaining the whys when I was the building coordinator handing out keys) the Church keeps costs down two ways in regards to use of the kitchens.  One is in order to allow a fully operating kitchen they would have to meet significant costly code requirements.

This will vary by state and country - which could be a reason to do a blanket rule or a rule just for that area.

37 minutes ago, Calm said:

 By not allowing more than warming of foods, they save massive amounts of money and the need for professional oversight of buildings.

But then they also put members at risk by allowing greater chances for food poisoning with food prepared in unclean kitchens.

37 minutes ago, Calm said:

 Second, the Church self insures and if there isn’t cooking in the kitchen there are less incidents they need to cover.

The self insured thing in instances like this can be frustrating. I believe it has changed now, but when I was activities chairman the handbook reccomended the chairman and other ward leaders get liability insurance. So I couldn't supervise cooking in the kitchen, but I could get sued over unsafe food prepared in member's homes.

37 minutes ago, Calm said:

 It does not surprise me based on what I heard the response to people not properly using the kitchen and creating false alarms (I assume by producing smoke by burning what they are cooking) is to remove the stove.  

The money they save by doing the above theoretically could help provide more food for places already set up for food services than they could produce by setting up a food service capable kitchen in our buildings because a large percentage of the funding has to go to the kitchen setup, having a professional on staff, etc.

But does it save money if you have to buy the prepared food somewhere else?  It will depend on how much food we are talking about and how safe you feel the ward member's homes are among other things.

37 minutes ago, Calm said:

Now whether the money saved goes to other food banks and kitchens, whether it goes to something else or whether they give much more than what is saved I have no clue.

It would be interesting to compare usage of kitchen and community commitment and sense of belonging between congregations of different faiths as well as same faiths who have more active kitchens vs those who leave that out of their communities as well as the amount of funding that goes directly to those in need.

I would love to see a sign in each LDS building kitchen (I feel like this would be a good use for the term “warming center” rather than “kitchen” given the actual absence of cooking in such places  ) that said “by not cooking in this kitchen, we are able to donate $ _____ this year to the ______ Food Bank, thank you for helping us do so by respecting the rules).  Ain’t going to happen, of course.

That would be interesting.

[Rain]

41 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Middle management lawyers at the Church Office Building.

I think we should embrace a full- throated partnership with Catholic Charities.

I would love to see that happen! 

[Rain]

44 minutes ago, Calm said:

Anyone who has older member friends or family, ask them if they remember if we were ever allowed to actually prepare more than sandwiches in ward kitchens.  

I'm younger than you, but remember cooking happening in my Utah ward.

44 minutes ago, Calm said:

I vaguely remember as a kid some very bustling actual cooking of meals at Ward parties, but I don’t know if that was just a kid’s view of the final touches of a potluck dinner or what.  We lived in a ward with quite a few Samoan families when I was 6 and younger and ward parties just seemed different to me back then, but it might have been more my own family’s involvement as we moved to a ward in a suburb of Chicago when I was 7 and my mom’s health collapsed leading to less involvement at church (ten minutes drive to church changing into 45 minutes made a big difference as well in our attendance to activities, I am guessing).

I am wondering if the rules changed when Pres Tanner came in and saved the Church from bankruptcy.  I would have been 5 at that time.

 

[bluebell]

12 minutes ago, Rain said:

When I was ward chairman I looked into all the reasons given to me at the time and they didn't prove to be true. One was that is was the law that you needed special permits. It wasn't true - you only needed the permits in Utah at the time if you were selling food (which makes me laugh, because later I had to get permits for Festival of Trees because we were selling food). It was also supposed to be in the handbook, but at least at that time it wasn't. 

This will vary by state and country - which could be a reason to do a blanket rule or a rule just for that area.

But then they also put members at risk by allowing greater chances for food poisoning with food prepared in unclean kitchens.

The self insured thing in instances like this can be frustrating. I believe it has changed now, but when I was activities chairman the handbook reccomended the chairman and other ward leaders get liability insurance. So I couldn't supervise cooking in the kitchen, but I could get sued over unsafe food prepared in member's homes.

But does it save money if you have to buy the prepared food somewhere else?  It will depend on how much food we are talking about and how safe you feel the ward member's homes are among other things.

That would be interesting.

This is what it says in the handbook:

Kitchens and Serving Areas

Kitchens and serving areas may be used to serve meals and refreshments and to keep food warm or cold.

In some locations, food preparation in kitchens is allowed. However, in the United States, Canada, and some other countries, food-handling regulations often require certification, commercial equipment, or government inspection. In these areas, food should be prepared elsewhere and brought to the meetinghouse. Food preparation demonstrations are an exception and are allowed even where these regulations exist. Facilities managers can provide guidance for each area.

It sounds like the blanket policy exists in in the US and Canada in order to deal with differences in state and country laws/rules regarding food preparation that most members would not be aware of and that local leadership would have difficulty keeping up with/tracking compliance.  But it does seem like, if someone could prove there were no food handling regulations that required any of the things listed above, that food preparation would be allowed.

[Calm]

10 minutes ago, bluebell said:

This is what it says in the handbook:

Kitchens and Serving Areas

Kitchens and serving areas may be used to serve meals and refreshments and to keep food warm or cold.

In some locations, food preparation in kitchens is allowed. However, in the United States, Canada, and some other countries, food-handling regulations often require certification, commercial equipment, or government inspection. In these areas, food should be prepared elsewhere and brought to the meetinghouse. Food preparation demonstrations are an exception and are allowed even where these regulations exist. Facilities managers can provide guidance for each area.

It sounds like the blanket policy exists in in the US and Canada in order to deal with differences in state and country laws/rules regarding food preparation that most members would not be aware of and that local leadership would have difficulty keeping up with/tracking compliance.  But it does seem like, if someone could prove there were no food handling regulations that required any of the things listed above, that food preparation would be allowed.

Glad to see the change in the handbook.

[Rain]

5 minutes ago, bluebell said:

This is what it says in the handbook:

Kitchens and Serving Areas

Kitchens and serving areas may be used to serve meals and refreshments and to keep food warm or cold.

In some locations, food preparation in kitchens is allowed. However, in the United States, Canada, and some other countries, food-handling regulations often require certification, commercial equipment, or government inspection. In these areas, food should be prepared elsewhere and brought to the meetinghouse. Food preparation demonstrations are an exception and are allowed even where these regulations exist. Facilities managers can provide guidance for each area.

It sounds like the blanket policy exists in in the US and Canada in order to deal with differences in state and country laws/rules regarding food preparation that most members would not be aware of and that local leadership would have difficulty keeping up with/tracking compliance.  But it does seem like, if someone could prove there were no food handling regulations that required any of the things listed above, that food preparation would be allowed.

Yes, this changed after I was activities chair which would have been about 20 years ago.  I think it also was after I was Provident Living Specialist which was about 13 years ago, but I'm not sure. 

I like your exceptions possibility as that would have made my calling so much easier for somethings.

[Rain]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Liabilities, insurance, sanitary issues, ID verification, property protection, health screening, medical assistance, safety enforcement., etc.  Who would be responsible?

That's why I have my question above.  All thse things are things other churches need to look at as well, but I know many who still do it.  

@Calm's suggestion that maybe it's because the church is self insured is a possibility. Most of the church’s that are cooking or are caring for the needy are smaller churches so they are unlikely to be self insured, but they would also more likely find the insurance was a heavy burden. I'll have to try to remember to ask my friend who did this kind of stuff at one of the larger churches how it worked there.

[Doctor Steuss]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Liabilities, insurance, sanitary issues, ID verification, property protection, health screening, medical assistance, safety enforcement., etc.  Who would be responsible?

I wonder what the threshold is, exactly when it comes to limiting things because of "sanitary issues" and "liability"?

When I was active, off the top of my head at chapels, I stood on a 20-foot ladder to replace light bulbs, act as security during evening events, pull weeds from the landscaping in 115 degree heat, push an industrial vacuum machine, and scrub fecal material off toilets.  At the Church-owned warms springs ranch, I've poured concrete, dug ditches, cleared weeds from ditches with fast running water, cut down trees, emptied and/or filled in outhouse holes, etc.  When it comes to Church sanctioned service projects, outside of Church-owned properties, I've torn off and replaced shingles on a 2-story roof, leaned over the edge of a 4-story building (local museum) to paint over graffiti, cleaned kitchens, cooked meals, cleaned some of the most disgusting restrooms imaginable (if you think men have bad aim in general, wait until you have to clean restrooms at a center for the blind).  I've also held callings that required me to get CPR certification and a background check.

Edited December 28, 2024 by Doctor Steuss

[Calm]

So I looked around online for any conversation about this and apparently it changed to no cooking in the 90s.  That shows how uninvolved my parents were in Church parties later in my youth as we kids would just walk down the street to go to the parties (we moved back to California when I was 13).  But I am wondering why I don’t remember cooking at church in the 80s when I was a young married. I only remember pot luck or assigned members’ meals, including a RS dinner I did almost all myself (I think I had a friend or two cook the turnovers for me) because I couldn’t bring myself to ask for volunteers due to my shyness (I would have had to call people I didn’t know that well).  It was a good meal too, chili over baked potatoes with tons of toppings and Phyllo dough apple turnovers.  We were in Kansas at the time and it wasn’t that big of a group. That would have been impossible in our Calgary or Mapleton ward.  

Edited December 28, 2024 by Calm

[Rain]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

So I looked around online for any conversation about this and apparently it changed to no cooking in the 90s.  That shows how uninvolved my parents were in Church parties later in my youth as us kids would just walk down the street to go to the parties (we moved back to California when I was 13).  But I am wondering why I don’t remember cooking at church on the 80s when I was a young married.

Maybe it's because it wasn't a rule for everyone?  I mean everyone seemed to know the rule when I was activities chair, but I couldn't find it anywhere and I really searched for if it was a rule or not.  I also asked leaders where the rule was and they didn't know either.  So maybe it was just a word of mouth rule for a long time?

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

I only remember pot luck or assigned members’ meals, including a RS dinner I did almost all myself (I think I had a friend or two cook the turnovers for me) because I couldn’t bring myself to ask for volunteers due to my shyness (I would have had to call people I didn’t know that well).  It was a good meal too, chili over baked potatoes with tons of toppings and Phyllo dough apple turnovers.  We were in Kansas at the time and it wasn’t that big of a group. That would have been impossible in our Calgary or Mapleton ward.  

 

[Tacenda]

13 minutes ago, Doctor Steuss said:

I wonder what the threshold is, exactly when it comes to limiting things because of "sanitary issues" and "liability"?

When I was active, off the top of my head I stood on a 20-foot ladder to replace light bulbs, act as security during evening events, pull weeds from the landscaping in 115 degree heat, push an industrial vacuum machine, and scrub fecal material off toilets.  At the Church-owned warms springs ranch, I've poured concrete, dug ditches, cleared weeds from ditches with fast running water, cut down trees, emptied and/or filled in outhouse holes, etc.  When it comes to Church sanctioned service projects, outside of Church-owned properties, I've torn off and replaced shingles on a 2-story roof, leaned over the edge of a 4-story building (local museum) to paint over graffiti, cleaned kitchens, cooked meals, cleaned some of the most disgusting restrooms imaginable (if you think men have bad aim in general, wait until you have to clean restrooms at a center for the blind).  I've also held callings that required me to get CPR certification and a background check.

Thank you for your service, I'm pretty sure this is after the church let go of janitors, the cleaning of the bathrooms? I do remember the Elder's Quorum replacing shingles on a roof of which my husband was involved with helping for a family that needed a new roof and was inactive. You sure were a very helpful and good servant for all that time. 

Edited December 28, 2024 by Tacenda

[Doctor Steuss]

2 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Thank you for your service, I'm pretty sure this is after the church let go of janitors. I do remember the Elder's Quorum replacing shingles on a roof of which my husband was involved with helping for a family that needed the help and was inactive. You sure were a very helpful and good servant for all that time. 

I would say that it was 99.99% me just following my parents' example, and being alongside them.  It's still the example they set.  I went over to drop some stuff off to my mom the other day, and my 76 year old father (bishopric member) with a heart condition was off helping a ward member clear a tree that had fallen, while she was baking cookies for a wedding reception.  It blows my mind.  As I've gradually lost the drive to serve at all, even with non-profits I had been involved with for a long time, but they just keep going, and going, and going...

[Tacenda]

1 minute ago, Doctor Steuss said:

I would say that it was 99.99% me just following my parents' example, and being alongside them.  It's still the example they set.  I went over to drop some stuff off to my mom the other day, and my 76 year old father (bishopric member) with a heart condition was off helping a ward member clear a tree that had fallen, while she was baking cookies for a wedding reception.  It blows my mind.  As I've gradually lost the drive to serve at all, even with non-profits I had been involved with for a long time, but they just keep going, and going, and going...

That reminds me of my good friend, who has been extremely busy in the church and continues on. She's currently the Primary President, takes care of her elderly parents, and her grandson from her son and grandson and granddaughter from her daughter each once a week. She has always had leadership callings in all the organizations. This is years and years of busy callings. She's killing herself because the level of members accepting callings in her ward is dismal I'm thinking. Members like your folks I hope aren't sacrificing too much of their well being or health too much. Maybe it keeps them young? Or not. Sounds like they have a great son!!

[Calm]

18 minutes ago, Rain said:

Maybe it's because it wasn't a rule for everyone?

I am thinking that way myself because online was saying late 90s and I know that we were not allowed to cook Thanksgiving at our church building up in Calgary when several expat families in the ward would get together on American Thanksgiving evening to have a dinner.  We did that for several years when we first moved up there in 1990.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Doctor Steuss said:

ble (if you think men have bad aim in general, wait until you have to clean restrooms at a center for the blind

Men should just learn to sit for everything….exceptions for when not having a toilet available in the great outdoors, of course.  

Edited December 28, 2024 by Calm