Warming center denied by folks in Kaysville Utah

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Agreed. The paid positions aspect of mainline Christian denominations make it easier for them to do the things we are discussing. That is why I believe we should make an even greater effort to work with existing efforts- particularly Catholic Charities.

Which is exactly what the Church is doing now. 
 

Quote

Humanitarian Efforts of the Church

The Church is involved in many efforts that range from employment to mental health to emergency relief. These efforts are intended to provide immediate relief to those in need while building self-reliance so those individuals can serve their communities.

Clean Water and Sanitation

 

 

Improved access to water, sanitation, and hygiene are essential for human health and well-being.

 

 

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Education

 

 

Read about how the Church helps others to have access to quality education and essential learning resources.

 

 

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Emergency Relief

 

 

As individuals receive aid and learn principles of self-reliance, they are better able to feel the love of God and provide for their families.

 

 

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Employment

 

 

See how the Church helps individuals to become self-reliant through employment support.

 

 

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Feeding the Hungry

 

 

Read how the Church strives to emulate the Savior’s example of feeding the hungry by addressing hunger throughout the world.

 

 

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Healthcare and Disability

 

 

We strive to follow Christ’s example of caring for people with health challenges through healthcare and disability efforts.

 

 

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Housing

 

 

Whether homelessness is due to an emergency, a sudden change in circumstances, or a more long-term challenge, the Lord cares for His children—and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints strives to help.

 

 

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Mental Health

 

 

Providing effective care and resources to people in need is essential in helping God’s children become more resilient and more self-reliant.

 

 

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Offering Refuge

 

 

See how the Church supports those who have been displaced through humanitarian projects and through the service and compassion of members.

 

 

Self-Reliance

 

 

Self-reliance allows us to better focus on the Savior’s two great commandments to love God and to love

 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/serve/caring?lang=eng&cid=rdb_v_caring

https://philanthropies.churchofjesuschrist.org/humanitarian-services/

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/topics/humanitarian-service/church?lang=eng

Edited December 28, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Quoting myself, because it's not just homeless that would use the warming centers. It could be someone whose furnace is on the brink or it could be someone who couldn't afford their heating bill. 

Also those experiencing power outages and people traveling that can’t find lodging.

[Bernard Gui]

22 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I can assure you this is precisely how social media reacted to this a month ago when it poured through.  Fair or not, people were disgusted with the “Mormon” vitriol displayed in that gathering.  

I don’t care a bit about social media.

There are people of all persuasions that spew vitriol, especially on social media. Having lived in the utopian state of Washington for three decades I heard a lot of disgusting “non-Mormon” vitriol spewed at public gatherings. Judging a group or a community by the actions of a few is indeed unfair. 

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

For the richest church in America and probably the world, there are a lot of reasons here about not doing things in order to save money. 

The world???

In my experience the Church has been and is very prudent when it comes to investing and spending money. I’m so very glad that by doing so it now has the resources to make significant contributions, enough apparently even to play among the heavy hitters like the Catholics and Baptists. It is astonishing that it could accumulate such resources in a relatively short time and gratifying that it shares them generously and wisely. If everyone  observed just the LDS practice of giving fast offerings (the Lord’s welfare system) and the Perpetual Education Fund there would be no poverty. 

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, Rain said:

That brought something to mind. With the charity work I do I learned that the church was paying the salary of a different church's charitable worker here in Arizona. If the church can pay for other churches to have charitable workers I'm not sure why it can't hire their own workers for the things we are talking about in this thread.

Why duplicate services when it is more efficient to support those that already exist? Is it better to support successful local efforts or to create another one?

Edited December 28, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[Rain]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I thought that at first too, but then after the America part he says "and probably the world".

Edit to add:  it's not really relevant to the topic being discussed, it was just a surprising comment if I was understanding it correctly as I thought it was always assumed by Catholics (and everyone else) that the Catholic church was richer.  It's been amassing wealth for over a thousand years and all (which is not a judgment against them, just a statement of fact).

Ahh. Got stuck on Amerrica and didn't catch the world part.  Glad you did.  Good question.

[Dario_M]

3 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

For the richest church in America and probably the world, there are a lot of reasons here about not doing things in order to save money. 

That's not really fair to say. I think that our church does a lot more then other churches. But maybe the government can also do something about this problem at once. First of all.. if somebody is to blame for this mess in the first place it is the government. The church helps where it can but it is not the job of the church to save the whole world. 

[Rain]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Why duplicate services when it is more efficient to support those that already exist?

I wasn't talking about duplicating services and elsewhere agreed with calm that it is good not to duplicate.

I'm talking about hiring people who are needed.  In that example, the position didn't actually exist till this agreement was made. In this case it was probably a good agreement that one church hired this person and this church provided the funds for their salary, but like I said in what you quoted if the church is willing to do that then they should also be willing to hire a person for needed positions.

Edited December 28, 2024 by Rain

[Bernard Gui]

5 minutes ago, Rain said:

I wasn't talking about duplicating services and elsewhere agreed with calm that it is good not to duplicate.

I'm talking about hiring people who are needed.  In that example, the position didn't actually exist till this agreement was made. In this case it was probably a good agrrement that one church hired this person and this church provided the funds for their salary, but like I said in what you quoted if the church is willing to do that then they should also be willing to hire a person for needed positions.

Which needed positions?

[Rain]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Which needed positions?

Any needed positions.

Edit: This thread has quite a few posts from various people about these kinds of positions and how some are paid and some are not etc.  This is what I am referring to.  It's half the conversation of this thread. 

Edited December 28, 2024 by Rain

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Dario_M said:

but it is not the job of the church to save the whole world. 

Well, actually when you think about it the idea is to help do this eventually.  

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Which needed positions?

There are likely places in the US and elsewhere where there are not current warming centers or community centers such as the Seventh Day Adventist church’s CC in near central Provo.  Why not set up something in an LDS chapel for such crises if the local congregation could adapt? We might have to change the design of our buildings some as well as hire staff trained to deal with vulnerable populations, but if we can open our buildings as temporary shelters for floods, hurricanes, and earthquakes, etc., why not freezing cold?  

We do have LDS Humanitarian services which does already provide some actual services as well as partner with others, I believe, so it would be an expansion in my view rather than a new thing.  For example:

Quote

Trained professionals and volunteers deliver employment, social/emotional, and spiritual support to help disaster victims recover.

https://philanthropies.churchofjesuschrist.org/humanitarian-services/funds/emergency-response/

I wonder how visible we are in terms of ongoing projects outside the US.

Edited December 28, 2024 by Calm

[Dario_M]

40 minutes ago, Calm said:

Well, actually when you think about it the idea is to help do this eventually.  

Yeah but it is not realistic to expect from the LDS community to save every soul on the planet. That's impossible. The church doesn't have that much power. 

If Los Angeles would be cold with freezing temperatures at this time of the year 100s of people would be freezing to death there every night. Because Los Angeles has so manny homeless people. It's just so sad. The government does nothing. The police take the belongs away from the homeless people. 

What i find also sad is that in Los Angeles you have these crazy rich people with their big villas enjoying their fancy life, but 2 blocks away you have the poor people. Homeless people who've lost everything. Being outside 24/7. The rich people, and the poor people, next to each other. This contrast is so unfair and such a disgrace. I don't believe Utah is doing it so bad after all then. 😉

Edited December 28, 2024 by Dario_M

[ZealouslyStriving]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

if we can open our buildings as temporary shelters for floods, hurricanes, and earthquakes, etc., why not freezing cold?

👆🏻 This.

[Tacenda]

10 hours ago, Dario_M said:

That's not really fair to say. I think that our church does a lot more then other churches. But maybe the government can also do something about this problem at once. First of all.. if somebody is to blame for this mess in the first place it is the government. The church helps where it can but it is not the job of the church to save the whole world. 

I don't want to cause a derail but churches aren't taxed, taxes go to social causes. So I do believe if a church can do more with their massive wealth such as the LDS and Catholic church, they should. Once an account gets billions, it is compounded so much that it's nearly never ending IMO.

[MustardSeed]

11 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I don’t care a bit about social media.

There are people of all persuasions that spew vitriol, especially on social media. Having lived in the utopian state of Washington for three decades I heard a lot of disgusting “non-Mormon” vitriol spewed at public gatherings. Judging a group or a community by the actions of a few is indeed unfair. 

Ok.  

[Dario_M]

34 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I don't want to cause a derail but churches aren't taxed, taxes go to social causes. So I do believe if a church can do more with their massive wealth such as the LDS and Catholic church, they should. Once an account gets billions, it is compounded so much that it's nearly never ending IMO.

But this also caunts for the government. Why is the government not doing anything about this problem? 

[ZealouslyStriving]

14 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

But this also caunts for the government. Why is the government not doing anything about this problem? 

Because we have ideologues on both sides who want  to use it as a perpetual campaign issue instead of actually coming up with solutions. That is the source of most of our troubles here in the USA.

[Dario_M]

15 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Because we have ideologues on both sides who want  to use it as a perpetual campaign issue instead of actually coming up with solutions. That is the source of most of our troubles here in the USA.

So... and because of that now the LDS community needs to save the day? 🤷‍♀️

I bet that the government has way more money then our church. I find that the government may also get into action as well then. They may begin in Californie where the number of homeless people are the highest. (Just googled that information) kicking against the church (who has already a bad reputation) is really easy. 

Edited December 28, 2024 by Dario_M

[bluebell]

9 hours ago, Calm said:

if we can open our buildings as temporary shelters for floods, hurricanes, and earthquakes, etc., why not freezing cold?  

 

I think it's probably the 'temporary' part that allows our buildings to serve as emergency shelters but not warming centers.

In Wyoming, it is below 18 degrees pretty much every night from October to March (give or take a day here and there). It would also be a lot of days too during those months. In Utah, it probably wouldn't be every night, but it could be more nights than not in a winter month, depending on the year.  Our churches are used too much during the week for them to be warming centers as well, except for during emergency situations.  If a place needs regularly used warming shelters for the homeless, I don't see how the church can fill that need except under exceptional circumstances. 

It's good that Utah is trying to fill it at the state level, but citizens need to allow the state to do so within reason.  Maybe some people in Kaysville forgot their Christian mandate for a minute (or maybe they aren't Christian and don't believe they have a mandate, I don't know).  I hope the blow up on social media spurs some good conversations from people on both ends.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Once an account gets billions, it is compounded so much that it's nearly never ending IMO.

If you are talking wealth in terms of actual dollars sitting in an account somewhere, I think you are right.  It sounds like a lot of the billions the church has is in real estate or investments, so not liquid (not actual cash anywhere, but only existing on paper, ever-changing as real estate values and the stock markets go up and down).

But I agree with your point.  We have the money and need to use it for good.

[california boy]

32 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

So... and because of that now the LDS community needs to save the day? 🤷‍♀️

I bet that the government has way more money then our church. I find that the government may also get into action as well then. They may begin in Californie where the number of homeless people are the highest. (Just googled that information) kicking against the church (who has already a bad reputation) is really easy. 

When we always point to others to solve the problem, then that is when the problem is never really solved.  

Powerful people are constantly demanding less taxes for event the rich.  The mantra is, they earned the money, they should be able to keep it for themselves.  

[Dario_M]

9 minutes ago, california boy said:

When we always point to others to solve the problem, then that is when the problem is never really solved.  

Powerful people are constantly demanding less taxes for event the rich.  The mantra is, they earned the money, they should be able to keep it for themselves.  

Uh...i don't really get your point though. You find that everyone who earned their own money should keep everything to themselves? Do i understand you correctly right now? 

[Dario_M]

20 minutes ago, bluebell said:

But I agree with your point.  We have the money and need to use it for good.

Wich the church is allready doing in most cases. 

Edited December 28, 2024 by Dario_M

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Our churches are used too much during the week for them to be warming centers as well, except for during emergency situations. 

I agree that if every church was used, it wouldn’t work.  But I think with so many churches nearby each other it might be possible.  We went through a year doubling up at the stake center when they were renovating our chapel in Calgary.  There could be a fixed routine where close by wards double up, maybe use zoom for some meetings in areas where it is a relatively short time every year.  For longer periods, in many places outside of Mormondense populations it probably wouldn’t be possible, but I think it could be manageable in some areas of Utah.  There are underused chapels in Salt Lake City as I understand it.

Practically speaking it probably makes more sense for the Church to buy already available buildings and convert them where they are needed into what is exactly needed and then work with the local community to get it staffed.  It could fall into the same category as Bishops’ Storehouses, DIs, and other Welfare services.