Warming center denied by folks in Kaysville Utah

[Tacenda]

This happened recently in my neck of the woods. In fact one of the ladies I play pickleball with was at this meeting and after watching it on the news it made me sick. And sad that my friend was part of the group at the meeting. Pretty sure they were nearly all LDS members since Kaysville is probably 98 percent LDS. 

https://www.ksl.com/article/51188954/kaysville-homeowners-show-up-in-large-numbers-to-oppose-warming-center

Also, in Utah there are homeless people freezing to death, literally because of the Utah law stating the homeless can be in the cold at 18 degrees until Code Blue is in effect. The surrounding states are at much higher degrees. 

https://www.fox13now.com/news/fox-13-investigates/fox-13-investigates-for-utahs-homeless-code-blue-is-colder-than-neighboring-states?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR0nwpLJ5wqVEpSIR503BIKrakL4mOhGjmkskQl6MJo2txzT4gNk2Rr4Bss_aem_3RGQWOkAIy5FVYAtdli1XQ

Makes me wonder why the church won't just open the doors for them to be warm in the empty churches which are nearly on every corner in Utah. Slight exaggeration. 

[Tacenda]

I understand that there are youth events at the churches so that wouldn't be advisable to have homeless at the churches at that time. So it's a difficult situation for sure.

[Calm]

31 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

This happened recently in my neck of the woods. In fact one of the ladies I play pickleball with was at this meeting and after watching it on the news it made me sick. And sad that my friend was part of the group at the meeting. Pretty sure they were nearly all LDS members since Kaysville is probably 98 percent LDS. 

https://www.ksl.com/article/51188954/kaysville-homeowners-show-up-in-large-numbers-to-oppose-warming-center

Also, in Utah there are homeless people freezing to death, literally because of the Utah law stating the homeless can be in the cold at 18 degrees until Code Blue is in effect. The surrounding states are at much higher degrees. 

https://www.fox13now.com/news/fox-13-investigates/fox-13-investigates-for-utahs-homeless-code-blue-is-colder-than-neighboring-states?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR0nwpLJ5wqVEpSIR503BIKrakL4mOhGjmkskQl6MJo2txzT4gNk2Rr4Bss_aem_3RGQWOkAIy5FVYAtdli1XQ

Makes me wonder why the church won't just open the doors for them to be warm in the empty churches which are nearly on every corner in Utah. Slight exaggeration. 

Churches are not designed to safely house people.  Not enough bathrooms for one thing.  In an emergency sure, but on an ongoing basis, you are going to have problems.   It would be a very hard place to supervise to be sure everyone is safe since there are many small rooms where people can’t be watched if they are drifting in and out. You can’t close off part of the building.  Plus too many doors to keep an eye on. 
 

From what I am reading, warming centers are generally in public areas which makes better sense than churches imo.  Better to build buildings made for the task where they can be accessed easily and help staffed as needed with our volunteers.

Edited December 27, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

The Seventh Day Adventist church in Provo is being used as a warming centers, it is close to downtown Provo iirc.  I wonder how they are handling the bathroom situation.

https://www.abc4.com/news/wasatch-front/utah-county-will-open-3-warming-centers-during-the-winter-season/

I would like to hear their setup to see if our churches could be adapted to serve.

Added:  Looks like they can shut off (with doors) the gym, kitchen, and bathrooms from the rest of the building, assuming they use the gym as the warming center.

https://seventhdayadventistprovo.org/facility-map/

We could typically add some doors to the hallway to isolate the gym except for the hallway with the bathrooms….except most chapels have the gym off the chapel with probably a pretty easy to damage dividers.  That and the stage leading potentially to accidents from kids playing on them (as Ihave seen happen before with kids playing in the curtains and stepping off the stage unknowingly, one kid breaking their arm).  I don’t think it would be too easy to adapt very many chapels, but some probably could.  You would still want it limited to highly trafficked areas because they need to be able to get there, then get to where they eat and get to where they sleep.

Edited December 27, 2024 by Calm

[ZealouslyStriving]

7 hours ago, Tacenda said:

This happened recently in my neck of the woods. In fact one of the ladies I play pickleball with was at this meeting and after watching it on the news it made me sick. And sad that my friend was part of the group at the meeting. Pretty sure they were nearly all LDS members since Kaysville is probably 98 percent LDS. 

https://www.ksl.com/article/51188954/kaysville-homeowners-show-up-in-large-numbers-to-oppose-warming-center

Also, in Utah there are homeless people freezing to death, literally because of the Utah law stating the homeless can be in the cold at 18 degrees until Code Blue is in effect. The surrounding states are at much higher degrees. 

https://www.fox13now.com/news/fox-13-investigates/fox-13-investigates-for-utahs-homeless-code-blue-is-colder-than-neighboring-states?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR0nwpLJ5wqVEpSIR503BIKrakL4mOhGjmkskQl6MJo2txzT4gNk2Rr4Bss_aem_3RGQWOkAIy5FVYAtdli1XQ

Makes me wonder why the church won't just open the doors for them to be warm in the empty churches which are nearly on every corner in Utah. Slight exaggeration. 

From  the article:

"The people that are coming to these homeless shelters do not want help," she yelled. "They're drug addicts. They do horrific things. I have small children. This is not why we elected you.""

Mosiah 4:

"16 And also, ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish.

17 Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just—

18 But I say unto you, O man, whosoever doeth this the same hath great cause to repent; and except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perisheth forever, and hath no interest in the kingdom of God."

** Apparently this years study of the Book of Mormon had little affect [for a portion of] Kaysville.

😢

Edited December 27, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving

[Dario_M]

I tought that there where not so much homeless people in Utah. I always read those stories about city's like Chicago or so. Or New York. I tought that the church always helps these group of people in difficuld times. Btw here in the Netherlands i've never heart about homeless people freezing to death. We have a really good helping system. 

[Mfbnew]

Do what they do in other states- a bad policy too, but a well known fact- give them all a bus ticket to Los Angeles.

Nobody's going to die at least of the cold around here. 

But perhaps the worst problems of the "unhoused"- supposedly a more politically correct term hereabouts,-  leading to many deaths is crime and violence.   You cannot believe the sheer volume of folks hereabouts without places to live until you see literal MILES of one tent or RV after another covering the downtown area. 

Our problem is housing those who come from other states to avoid the exact problem you are discussing - but I certainly admit that if I were in the same position as those folks are- I would be here myself.

And then we have the poor folks who make it across the border who are not threatened by weather- just the cartels.  The choice is literally the devil or if not the "deep blue sea"- then the choice is the devil or the devil.

What a wonderful world we have created for ourselves!  

And then you see the sweet children playing among the tents....   😥

 

 

 

Edited December 27, 2024 by Mfbnew

[Calm]

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

* Apparently this years study of the Book of Mormon had little affect in Kaysville

Just remember it is a small group that showed up to complain.  There were others who were supporting the city in what they were doing as reported.  Perhaps they would have attended if they knew the naysayers would be vocal.  Plus it sounds like many of them weren’t unhappy about the idea, they just wanted to be included in the planning.  Maybe that means they wanted to say “no, not in my backyard”, but maybe they would have been supportive and had some good ideas.

I don’t think Kaysville should be judged as a whole based on a small percentage of the population.

[ZealouslyStriving]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

Just remember it is a small group that showed up to complain.  There were others who were supporting the city in what they were doing as reported.  Perhaps they would have attended if they knew the naysayers would be vocal.  Plus it sounds like many of them weren’t unhappy about the idea, they just wanted to be included in the planning.  Maybe that means they wanted to say “no, not in my backyard”, but maybe they would have been supportive and had some good ideas.

I don’t think Kaysville should be judged as a whole based on a small percentage of the population.

👍🏻 I have amended my post.

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

Just remember it is a small group that showed up to complain.  There were others who were supporting the city in what they were doing as reported.  Perhaps they would have attended if they knew the naysayers would be vocal.  Plus it sounds like many of them weren’t unhappy about the idea, they just wanted to be included in the planning.  Maybe that means they wanted to say “no, not in my backyard”, but maybe they would have been supportive and had some good ideas.

I don’t think Kaysville should be judged as a whole based on a small percentage of the population.

There was supposed to be one in a non LDS church in the next neighborhood on the hill but the surrounding neighborhood did the same thing these people in the Kaysville neighborhood did and succeeded to put a stop to it. But apparently the Kaysville one is going to be a warming center. I looked into the volunteering of it so may be able to do that possibly. I guess we'd go around to find those homeless on the street and give them rides to the places in busses or shuttles. One thing that is really coming to fruition is the actual people that aren't homeless because of drugs or being mentally ill, there are people that literally are homeless because of funds. I'm sure the church helps a lot of people with their rents. But people slip through the cracks. Utah is now a state that people cannot afford to own a house and the rent has skyrocketed. Housing is one of the highest in the nation, as you probably already knew.

[Doctor Steuss]

9 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

From  the article:

"The people that are coming to these homeless shelters do not want help," she yelled. "They're drug addicts. They do horrific things. I have small children. This is not why we elected you.""

 

When I used to volunteer downtown at a feeding/clothing outreach site for those with housing and food insecurity, the drug addicts were generally in the minority.  They were definitely there, and it was always an adventure when a couple of them had been up for a few days and were in the agitated hallucination stage of the bender, but they weren't in the majority.  A good amount of people I talked to had jobs, but were underemployed.  A few I talked to had multiple parttime jobs.  There just wasn't enough money for rent.  Even if there was enough money for rent, how do you get approved when you have no credit, or bad credit, and no current address?  How do you build credit with no current address? 

Speaking of children... there were always children there.

The stories of how they became homeless are just as varied as the human experience itself.  Quit work to take care of a dyeing parent, and then couldn't find work after that because of the lapse in employment.  Lost their home to medical debt.  Went into a temporary deep depression after losing a child.  Sold what they had and moved to the city/state for a promised job opportunity that didn't pan out.  Victim of a scam.  And so on.

I don't think people realize that once you no longer have a physical address, regular access to a shower, ability to do laundry, etc., just how much opportunity in the world is closed off to you.  The greatest desire, motivation, and drive can't overcome social stigmas.

One of the non-profits I worked for was run by a pathological entrepreneur (I'm sure we've all experienced that type of person, that sees opportunity in everything around them).  He had owned multiple businesses, some of which he started as a teen.  The great recession wiped him out.  He had no family, ended up losing everything trying to keep his businesses afloat, and wound up homeless.  He eventually found someone who let him sleep/shower at their business, and use it as an address, in exchange for him basically being overnight security.  That's all he needed.  He once again has several businesses, and runs a non-profit for people on the streets because he knows firsthand that it isn't just about wanting help, or whatever heartless "othering" people use to feel better about their lack of basic empathy.

One thing I do know from my time in the Church, and coordinating with my old ward and LDS friends for homeless outreach, is that like the drug addicts who do horrific things, the vocal people of Kaysville are also in the minority.

[ZealouslyStriving]

11 minutes ago, Doctor Steuss said:

When I used to volunteer downtown at a feeding/clothing outreach site for those with housing and food insecurity, the drug addicts were generally in the minority.  They were definitely there, and it was always an adventure when a couple of them had been up for a few days and were in the agitated hallucination stage of the bender, but they weren't in the majority.  A good amount of people I talked to had jobs, but were underemployed.  A few I talked to had multiple parttime jobs.  There just wasn't enough money for rent.  Even if there was enough money for rent, how do you get approved when you have no credit, or bad credit, and no current address?  How do you build credit with no current address? 

Speaking of children... there were always children there.

The stories of how they became homeless are just as varied as the human experience itself.  Quit work to take care of a dyeing parent, and then couldn't find work after that because of the lapse in employment.  Lost their home to medical debt.  Went into a temporary deep depression after losing a child.  Sold what they had and moved to the city/state for a promised job opportunity that didn't pan out.  Victim of a scam.  And so on.

I don't think people realize that once you no longer have a physical address, regular access to a shower, ability to do laundry, etc., just how much opportunity in the world is closed off to you.  The greatest desire, motivation, and drive can't overcome social stigmas.

One of the non-profits I worked for was run by a pathological entrepreneur (I'm sure we've all experienced that type of person, that sees opportunity in everything around them).  He had owned multiple businesses, some of which he started as a teen.  The great recession wiped him out.  He had no family, ended up losing everything trying to keep his businesses afloat, and wound up homeless.  He eventually found someone who let him sleep/shower at their business, and use it as an address, in exchange for him basically being overnight security.  That's all he needed.  He once again has several businesses, and runs a non-profit for people on the streets because he knows firsthand that it isn't just about wanting help, or whatever heartless "othering" people use to feel better about their lack of basic empathy.

One thing I do know from my time in the Church, and coordinating with my old ward and LDS friends for homeless outreach, is that like the drug addicts who do horrific things, the vocal people of Kaysville are also in the minority.

The main part of my employment is cleaning up homeless encampments for the county and cities in the area. It saddens me to see the condition that they are living in and I can't help but wonder how that got into that position. If people took two seconds to ponder that question the world would be much kinder.

[Tacenda]

45 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

The main part of my employment is cleaning up homeless encampments for the county and cities in the area. It saddens me to see the condition that they are living in and I can't help but wonder how that got into that position. If people took two seconds to ponder that question the world would be much kinder.

There was a homeless man on a corner near a Walmart that I wished I had done something. He had his belongings and was trying to feed his dog or something, very intent on taking care of it. I drove on past and feeling like I should have offered him some help. You could tell he wasn't coming from a home and trying to look homeless like I've seen sometimes. Where it's an operation. This guy hadn't bathed, his hands were black and he wasn't holding a sign that I know of because I had done my shopping and seen a while later that he wasn't. I've spoken about handing out a Ziploc bag with certain items, but never followed through. I really need to get to it and do something. Many of those on the brink of homelessness like the guy @Doctor Steussmentioned just need a little hand up to be able to survive.  

[ZealouslyStriving]

45 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

There was a homeless man on a corner near a Walmart that I wished I had done something. He had his belongings and was trying to feed his dog or something, very intent on taking care of it. I drove on past and feeling like I should have offered him some help. You could tell he wasn't coming from a home and trying to look homeless like I've seen sometimes. Where it's an operation. This guy hadn't bathed, his hands were black and he wasn't holding a sign that I know of because I had done my shopping and seen a while later that he wasn't. I've spoken about handing out a Ziploc bag with certain items, but never followed through. I really need to get to it and do something. Many of those on the brink of homelessness like the guy @Doctor Steussmentioned just need a little hand up to be able to survive.  

Our Elder's Quorum just assembled a bunch of "kits" for Ward members to hand out.

[bluebell]

Homelessness is such a hard problem to solve.  It's horrible for those dealing with it, and it's genuinely difficult for communities.  If anyone has spent any time on Wall Ave in Ogden, or downtown in SLC, they know what the areas look like around homeless shelters and it's not something that anyone would want in their neighborhood by their homes.  The areas (I'm just speaking about the ones in these spots in Utah, there are probably areas in other places that are not like this) are filthy, hazmat-type situations.  There is a lot of crime.  Property values go down significantly.  It's not an insignificant issue for citizens.

At the same time, people need help!  Especially in winter, you can't just leave people outside as collateral damage.  There have to be places for people to go that are safe and warm.  It's our responsibility to help.  I don't know what the answers are but we have to find some.  No one wants homeless shelters (as they currently present themselves) in their backyards but that can't be the end of the discussion.  Saying "no" shouldn't be the last part of the equation.  

[Rain]

1 hour ago, Doctor Steuss said:

When I used to volunteer downtown at a feeding/clothing outreach site for those with housing and food insecurity, the drug addicts were generally in the minority.  They were definitely there, and it was always an adventure when a couple of them had been up for a few days and were in the agitated hallucination stage of the bender, but they weren't in the majority.  A good amount of people I talked to had jobs, but were underemployed.  A few I talked to had multiple parttime jobs.  There just wasn't enough money for rent.  Even if there was enough money for rent, how do you get approved when you have no credit, or bad credit, and no current address?  How do you build credit with no current address? 

Speaking of children... there were always children there.

The stories of how they became homeless are just as varied as the human experience itself.  Quit work to take care of a dyeing parent, and then couldn't find work after that because of the lapse in employment.  Lost their home to medical debt.  Went into a temporary deep depression after losing a child.  Sold what they had and moved to the city/state for a promised job opportunity that didn't pan out.  Victim of a scam.  And so on.

I don't think people realize that once you no longer have a physical address, regular access to a shower, ability to do laundry, etc., just how much opportunity in the world is closed off to you.  The greatest desire, motivation, and drive can't overcome social stigmas.

One of the non-profits I worked for was run by a pathological entrepreneur (I'm sure we've all experienced that type of person, that sees opportunity in everything around them).  He had owned multiple businesses, some of which he started as a teen.  The great recession wiped him out.  He had no family, ended up losing everything trying to keep his businesses afloat, and wound up homeless.  He eventually found someone who let him sleep/shower at their business, and use it as an address, in exchange for him basically being overnight security.  That's all he needed.  He once again has several businesses, and runs a non-profit for people on the streets because he knows firsthand that it isn't just about wanting help, or whatever heartless "othering" people use to feel better about their lack of basic empathy.

One thing I do know from my time in the Church, and coordinating with my old ward and LDS friends for homeless outreach, is that like the drug addicts who do horrific things, the vocal people of Kaysville are also in the minority.

My brother was an addict and alcoholic. Rather than any sort of violence he was much more inclined to sleep it off.  

He was always helping people. Once he almost lost his apartment because instead of paying his rent he gave it to his roommate so he could get food. He especially felt inclined to help children.  

He also had Schizoaffective Disorder. He was so much more inclined to think the jacket he just found on the sidewalk was put their by his imagined fiance for him than cause harm to anyone. He was just a gentle soul.

[smac97]

13 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I understand that there are youth events at the churches so that wouldn't be advisable to have homeless at the churches at that time. So it's a difficult situation for sure.

In Matthew 10:16, the Savior said: "Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves."  The "harmless as doves" part seems more or less self-explanatory, but the "wise as serpents" part is often overlooked.  For my part, I think it emphasizes the need for prudence, wisdom, discernment, and awareness in implementing the Restored Gospel in our lives.

We have extensive scriptural exhortations to help those in need, the hungry, the homeless, and so on.  We can and should do this with prudence, wisdom, discernment and awareness. 

For example, a few years back I was serving as my ward's bishop, the responsibilities of which included monitoring the condition of the building and making sure any issues were reported for maintenance/repair.  Our building has an "inside corner" that virtually nobody used.  it had a rack for parking bikes, and also a large condenser unit for the buildings AC system, but that's it.  One day I discovered that a homeless man had set up a camp for himself behind the condenser unit.  Nobody could see him, and at first he seemed to make it work.  He apparently panhandled by day, and slept there by night.  He also had a cheap tablet which he used to tap into the building's Wifi to connect to the Internet. 

I was initially inclined to let him alone for the time being, but I saw almost immediately that this was going to be difficult.  He was sneaking into the building to use the bathroom, and when the building was locked he was urinating/defecating in the shrubs. 

Also, small children often go running around outside the church building before and after (and during) activities held inside the building.  I was concerned what might happen if they encountered this man and his encampment.  I was also concerned about how parents would feel.  I did not know this man's name or anything about him.

Also, our ward building also houses a YSA ward, and the bishop of that ward reported to me that the man - apparently in an inebriated/stoned state, had approached some of the young women in that ward as they exited the building and said some things to them that were offensive and made them concerned for their safety (this was in the evening after ward activity).

Also, the encampment, when seen, was unsightly.  Garbage strewn about, bad smells, etc.

Also, the church building did not belong to me, so I did not feel like I could tacitly authorize this man to live there.

Also, city ordinances prohibited the building to be used as a residence.

And so on.

So shortly after I discovered the man living there, I walked by to confirm that he was still there.  He was.  I drove home, made two large breakfast burritos, wrapped them in tinfoil, and drove back to the Church.  I approached the man, gave him the burritos, and told him that I hope things work out for him, but that he could no longer stay in his encampment.  I gave him directions to the city's homeless shelter.  He said he would leave, and he did.

I could envision the Church using its buildings as a "soup kitchen," if there were a need for such.  But housing is an entirely different animal.  The practical, legal, logistical, etc. considerations are essentially prohibitive for such uses.

I could also envision the Church helping with homeless facilities, but these bring their own slate of problems to the area.  Homelessness is, unfortunately, often heavily associated with substance abuse, mental illness and criminality. 

I have a client whose business model involved converting motels into subsidized housing, with each room being a "studio apartment." It's a great idea, but the logistics are very challenging due to, well, the tendency for tenants to struggle with substance abuse, mental illness and criminality. 

This includes violence, threats of violence, disruptive behaviors (shouting/screaming, fights), public intoxication, sexual lewdness and misconduct, sanitary issues, littering/garbage, vandalism, graffiti, abandoned vehicles, foul odors, and so on. 

Tenants of such subsidized housing, who often have recently exited homelessness, or else are spiraling towards it, will also often invite family members and friends to move into the facility, or else are coerced into allowing this.  These non-tenants bring with them additional security and safety and other concerns.  

While my client's property managers do a pretty good job of policing behaviors on the property, they can't do much about these things when the tenants hang out on or near adjacent properties, sidewalks, parking lots, etc.  So neighbors and nearby property owners end up having to cope with these behaviors as well.

Also, concentrating that portion of the population who often have substantial substance abuse, mental illness and criminality issues into a facility that puts them in very close proximity to each other can create unhealthy synergistic behaviors (increased drug use, drug sales, sexual misconduct, violence, etc.).

These facilities are typically in "commercial" areas of town.  Church buildings are typically built in or near residential areas.  Is it appropriate to set up homeless facilities in these residential areas?  

My client recently purchased a motel in Elko, NV and intended to convert it into one such facility.  He had hoped that Elko would be receptive to the idea, as it has a substantial homelessness problem.  No such luck.  The city sued my client and levied massive fines to discourage him from moving forward with the project.  It worked.  He is selling the property and abandoning the project.  Elko will continue to have homelessness problems, but for the reasons noted above, its reaction here was not totally irrational.  The Powers-that-Be apparently anticipated that a motel-as-subsidized-housing would likely increase instances of problematic behaviors like those noted above.  And they're not wrong.

I have a friend who years ago bought a lot that is adjacent to a 5-acre wooded parcel of land by the Provo River.  The wooded parcel is in a flood plain, so it can't be developed.  It belongs to a tiny HOA with houses bordering the parcel.  My friend built his house and moved his large family there.  For the first few years, he had to keep his children out of the wooded parcel because it was occasionally used by homeless people.  He had to go out there on occasion, ask them to leave, then clean up after them.  This included garbage, pornography, feces, drug paraphernalia, and so on.  Over time, the homeless folks stopped using it, at which point my friend finally felt comfortable with letting his children go back there.  This all happened a few dozen yards from his house and other houses with small children.

As you can see, there are a lot of factors that must be taken into account when dealing with homelessness.  

Back to Kaysville, here is the location of the proposed warming center:

The folks at the warming center will be blocked off to the east by I-15, and north, south and east all involve extensive residential areas.

Also, from the article you cited:

Quote

Commissioner Bob Stevenson said plans will roll forward for the warming center inside a former emissions testing center at the corner of 600 West and Old Mill Lane. He told KSL-TV it was too late to find another location, as any new plans would have to be approved by a state board.

Homeowners like Jason Largey are asking that they somehow be allowed to take part in the process in the future.

"I feel like anything you're trying to do, you get better solutions of the more people you include, and making it public from the beginning," Largey said.

Warming centers will also be located in Layton, at the Valley View Golf Course, and inside the Clearfield Senior Center. Stevenson said the commission has had little to no pushback on those centers.

So it sounds like

A) the Powers-that-Be have managed to find several other locations for warming shelters that have not generated public opposition ("the commission has had little to no pushback on those centers"), and

B) some (many?) of the locals were upset that the Davis County Commission had not facilitated public input/involvement until after the location of this particular warming center was a fait accompli ("Homeowners like Jason Largey are asking that they somehow be allowed to take part in the process in the future").  This is a very common complaint against local government actors, who use this tactic in all sorts of situations).

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited December 27, 2024 by smac97

[smac97]

10 hours ago, Mfbnew said:

Do what they do in other states- a bad policy too, but a well known fact- give them all a bus ticket to Los Angeles.

Nobody's going to die at least of the cold around here. 

A very bad policy indeed.  We would be bad neighbors.  But this happens in Utah, with smaller counties/cities bussing their homeless to Salt Lake.

10 hours ago, Mfbnew said:

But perhaps the worst problems of the "unhoused"- supposedly a more politically correct term hereabouts,-  leading to many deaths is crime and violence.   You cannot believe the sheer volume of folks hereabouts without places to live until you see literal MILES of one tent or RV after another covering the downtown area. 

I sure would like to see public policy that makes housing more affordable.

Also, the cheap and widely-available and de facto / de jure legalized use of previously illicit drugs is making the situation even worse than it was originally.  This not only materially contributes to the creation of homelessness (because drug-addled people tend to not be dependable, ergo not work, ergo not make money, ergo not provide for themselves, ergo become homeless), it prolongs and entrenches it.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Mfbnew]

6 hours ago, Tacenda said:

There was supposed to be one in a non LDS church in the next neighborhood on the hill but the surrounding neighborhood did the same thing these people in the Kaysville neighborhood did and succeeded to put a stop to it. But apparently the Kaysville one is going to be a warming center. I looked into the volunteering of it so may be able to do that possibly. I guess we'd go around to find those homeless on the street and give them rides to the places in busses or shuttles. One thing that is really coming to fruition is the actual people that aren't homeless because of drugs or being mentally ill, there are people that literally are homeless because of funds. I'm sure the church helps a lot of people with their rents. But people slip through the cracks. Utah is now a state that people cannot afford to own a house and the rent has skyrocketed. Housing is one of the highest in the nation, as you probably already knew.

Since this is ONE problem we don't have- how does one have a "warming center" in which- if one just happens to fall asleep- does NOT become a "shelter" ?

If I were in that situation I can easily imagine myself stopping by to "get warm", and just "accidentally" take a little nap of - oh eight hours or so... 

So what's the deal?   Does that happen?

[smac97]

6 hours ago, Tacenda said:

There was supposed to be one in a non LDS church in the next neighborhood on the hill but the surrounding neighborhood did the same thing these people in the Kaysville neighborhood did and succeeded to put a stop to it. But apparently the Kaysville one is going to be a warming center. I looked into the volunteering of it so may be able to do that possibly.

Make sure they take safety and security seriously before volunteering there.

6 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I guess we'd go around to find those homeless on the street and give them rides to the places in busses or shuttles. One thing that is really coming to fruition is the actual people that aren't homeless because of drugs or being mentally ill, there are people that literally are homeless because of funds.

I would be interested in seeing statistics on this.  My sense is that people who are homeless due for reasons outside of drugs, mental illness, and/or prolonged dysfunctional behaviors/tendencies are not homeless for very long.

I have evicted large numbers of tenants from my client's motel-as-subsidized-housing facilities.  The drug-addled and mentally ill are evicted due to misbehavior (typically violence or the threat of violence) or failure to pay rent (because they can't/won't hold down a job).  People who are either not drug addled or mentally ill, or else who are but are also capable of adequately managing these conditions, seldom get evicted.  Rather than just give up and shut down, these folks work with the landlord, with state agencies, etc. and scrape together housing assistance.  Or else they get some money from family and friends.  Or they get another job.  They figure out a way to avoid homelessness.

My client has less luck with tenants who have drug and mental illness issues.  Drug addiction is the worst.  I am very grateful to have had the Word of Wisdom taught to me in my formative years, and to have had family members and friends to look up to and emulate.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited December 27, 2024 by smac97

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3 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I sure would like to see public policy that makes housing more affordable.

Seriously?  That is called "rent control" and is the best reason I know of to make housing scarce.

The stricter the control, the less investors will be motivated to build new homes or rehab old ones.  After being in the apartment real estate business for a few years (just 40 or so) I have a bit of a feel for these things.

I know of condo in MALIBU- a rather nice neighborhood - which was owned by an LDS family, who did not want to raise the rent because of the "nice" older lady who lived there.  The nice older lady had a son who moved in.

The LDS family did not know he moved in and actually put himself on the lease.  The HOA did not notify the "landlord" family, and later after the "nice older lady" passed on, the son inherited a right to stay in that condo on the beach for around $1k/mo, and has now done so for years, and the rent cannot be increased because supposedly a "handicapped" person lives there.

THAT is an example of "a public policy that makes housing more affordable".   His condo in today's market would be worth well over a million dollars- but who will plop down their million to make $1k per month- and still also have to pay HOA fees?  And property taxes???

All it does is make lawyers rich.

But of course I am not going to go THERE.... 

 

 

[smac97]

Just now, Mfbnew said:

Quote

I sure would like to see public policy that makes housing more affordable.

Seriously?  That is called "rent control" and is the best reason I know of to make housing scarce.

I am not speaking of rent control.  Instead, I would like to see public policy that makes housing more affordable in other ways.

Put some limitations on what HOAs and cities and counties can do to limit the size of homes.

Let private parties enter into long-term leases for public land adjacent to economic areas, with conditions requiring that development focus on smaller and affordably-built residential structures.

Invest in newer construction methods which reduce the cost and time associated with getting new housing in.  Again, limit the amounts of red tape that local government can impose on new construction.  A friend of mine has a business selling 3-D printers for homes.  He has some interesting insights on this issue:

Notice that his comments center not on the technology (which, I think, is well on its way in development), but on local governments which do things to slow down and/or prevent the development of housing.

Just now, Mfbnew said:

The stricter the control, the less investors will be motivated to build new homes or rehab old ones.  After being in the apartment real estate business for a few years (just 40 or so) I have a bit of a feel for these things.

Having been a real estate attorney for 20 years, I too have a feel for these things.

Just now, Mfbnew said:

I know of condo in MALIBU- a rather nice neighborhood - which was owned by an LDS family, who did not want to raise the rent because of the "nice" older lady who lived there.  The nice older lady had a son who moved in.

The LDS family did not know he moved in and actually put himself on the lease. 

Typically, modifying a lease requires the consent of all parties to the lease.  So some stranger to lease lease "put{ting} himself on the lease" would have no legal effect.  I guess Malibu is different?

Also, a lease is typically for a set period of time (a "term"), generally an annual or month-to-month arrangement.  When the term ends, the parties re-negotiate and execute a new lease.  

Just now, Mfbnew said:

The HOA did not notify the "landlord" family, and later after the "nice older lady" passed on, the son inherited a right to stay in that condo on the beach for around $1k/mo, and has now done so for years, and the rent cannot be increased because supposedly a "handicapped" person lives there.

Odd.  But not at all the proposal I had in mind, which involves reducing governmental regulation/interference, not increasing it (such as through rent control laws).

Thanks,

-Smac

 

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49 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I could envision the Church using its buildings as a "soup kitchen," if there were a need for such.  But housing is an entirely different animal.  The practical, legal, logistical, etc. considerations are essentially prohibitive for such uses.

True!

Our Ward building also happens to be the Stake Center, but we do not serve steak. 

BUT the kitchen has actually had most of the cooking devices- stoves etc.- removed due to every "Tom **** and Harry" member deciding to use it with or without permission, resulting in chronic "false alarms"- which finally caused the Stake to be charged a few thousand dollars- after a few years of this going on.   

Sometimes folks with keys might forget to lock up, and "unhoused" people would end up using the facilities available.

Many of the causes of these false alarms started "legitimately" in intent but end up differently  :"Let's have a ward dinner and just use the kitchen to heat everything"- but forget to change the emergency alarm systems, etc. due to having no knowledge of the "rules" involved.

The Hook and Ladders would roll, sirens blaring, and the neighbors - for some reason-  were getting fed up too.   It was becoming a continuing problem.

Poof!  The stove disappeared from the "kitchen"!  (It was removed)

Yes indeed !

Quote

 

The practical, legal, logistical, etc. considerations are essentially prohibitive for such uses.

 

That one needed to be said twice!

[ZealouslyStriving]

Our Ward does a food handout 2x month. One they get extra product from Trader Joes and the other left over things from a local food bank after they have serviced a 55+ apartment complex.

[MiserereNobis]

13 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

From  the article:

"The people that are coming to these homeless shelters do not want help," she yelled. "They're drug addicts. They do horrific things. I have small children. This is not why we elected you.""

Mosiah 4:

"16 And also, ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish.

17 Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just—

18 But I say unto you, O man, whosoever doeth this the same hath great cause to repent; and except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perisheth forever, and hath no interest in the kingdom of God."

** Apparently this years study of the Book of Mormon had little affect [for a portion of] Kaysville.

😢

That’s a great quote from the Book of Mormon. Very Christian.