War in Israel, fall of Syria, Russia and Iran etc.

[Calm]

38 minutes ago, Autonomous said:

In the text/transcript, first line under interview link.  The other link has text, and copies of the news article discussed.  

I would like to know where your specific quote of Minert was from that left out “but few ever voluteered”.

Quote

perhaps as many as 1,800 Latter-day Saints in Germany and Austria performed active military service between 1939 and 1945

If it is sometime in the interview, still need time stamp.

Edited December 9, 2024 by Calm

[bluebell]

4 hours ago, Autonomous said:

 

It was from: https://gospeltangents.com/people/david-conley-nelson/   I'll get the article when the book comes in.

To me, it is very simple, # of Mormons in concentration campus compared to # serving in Hitler's army, to current policies - temple work for Hitler has been done, but no temple work for holocaust victims...   There's a reason Mormons were not persecuted as other religious groups were in WW2.  

 

"When the Nazi head of Hübener’s congregation found out about the arrest, he excommunicated the boy from the Mormon Church." - https://www.history.com/news/meet-the-youngest-person-executed-for-defying-the-nazis

 

Current and past.... those who are choosing different sides in history.

The church actually got in "trouble" by the Jewish people for doing the work for Holocaust victims quite a few years ago, so they had to change their policy on them (though occasionally some still get through somehow).  It's a pretty well known topic.  And yes, Hubener was excommunicated by his bishop (this is widely known knowledge), but church leadership in Utah did not agree with it and all of his blessings were reinstated.

(Some of this is really basic to the topic, it's hard to understand how you are unaware of it if you've been doing research).

Jehovah's Witnesses, as one example, were placed in concentration camps because they refused to fight in the war.  But that has nothing to do with Nazi's and Germany specifically.  They are passivists and always refuse to fight in wars, regardless of what the war is about or what country they live in.  

 

[webbles]

2 hours ago, Autonomous said:

It was quote from podcast, tangents interview.  

https://gospeltangents.com/2017/12/how-lds-basketball-genealogy-found-synergy-with-hitler/

Here is News article:

https://vozesmormons.org/mormon-newspaper-praises-nazi-germany/

Thanks for linking to the Deseret News article.  Here's the relevant paragraph:

Quote

Many of those who felt the greatest anxiety about being able to carry on their religious activities are finding that at least one branch of their church work has received its greatest boon since Germany’s adoption of Hitlerism. It was always difficult for genealogical workers to get into the archives of the recognized church to trace back family records. When the pastor learned of the intention access to the records was often denied. Now due to the importance given to the racial question, and the almost necessity of proving that one’s grandmother was not a Jewess, the old record books have been dusted off and stand ready and waiting for you. No questions are asked. In fact, some of the Saints instead of being refused by the pastors now have received letters of encouragement complementing them for their patriotism.

I'm not seeing a problem here.  The German churches used to not let anyone see their records so it was difficult to do geneology.  But now, the churches opened up their books and it was easier.  Why not take advantage of the situation?  Also, you'll notice that the first line of the paragraph shows that many of the members had anxiety about their beliefs.  This just happened to be one area that they didn't have to worry about as much.

[Autonomous]

Please provide the name of a Mormon leader on the list of the Righteous Among the Nations. 

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Autonomous said:

Please provide the name of a Mormon leader on the list of the Righteous Among the Nations. 

How about you answer the questions asked of you first…

Edited December 10, 2024 by Calm

[Autonomous]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

How about you answer the questions asked of you first…

From appointing Nazis to leadership positions to appointing pedophiles to leadership. Not just leaders, but all the members who excuse, minimize, downplay, or rationalize the actions of those in power, as has been evident in this thread.

Some groups focus on protecting vulnerable members and marginalized individuals, while others prioritize the protection of their leaders and the organization’s reputation - hide records, shield leaders from accountability, and enable harmful behavior to continue.

It is deeply concerning when family members, including parents and grandparents, continue to support such groups and leaders, placing loyalty to the organization above the well-being of their own children and grandchildren. This pattern often repeats itself, with each generation continuing the same destructive behavior.

 

Not valiant.  Not thy brothers keeper.  Not included in the "righteous among nations.   

Joined Hitler's army,  sent kids to the youth programs, appointed Nazi church leaders, posted "Jews not welcome" signs on church buildings, and ousted Jewish converts.  Swastika printed on church programs.  Excommunicated the one poor kid who did not support Hitler.  ... Blacks not allowed to hold the priesthood.  Women not allowed to hold the priesthood.  Pedophiles are given the priesthood though, pedophiles and Nazi's.

 

Cognitive dissonance.  Those outside the church clearly see it.

 

 

"Now, due to the importance given to the racial question, and the almost necessity of proving that one’s grandmother was not a Jewess, the old record books have been dusted off and stand ready and waiting for use. No questions are asked. In fact some of the Saints instead of being refused by the pastors now have received letters of encouragement complimenting them for their patriotism.” - https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=Aul-kAQHnToC&dat=19331209&printsec=frontpage

Edited December 10, 2024 by Autonomous

[bluebell]

36 minutes ago, Autonomous said:

From appointing Nazis to leadership positions to appointing pedophiles to leadership. Not just leaders, but all the members who excuse, minimize, downplay, or rationalize the actions of those in power, as has been evident in this thread.

Some groups focus on protecting vulnerable members and marginalized individuals, while others prioritize the protection of their leaders and the organization’s reputation - hide records, shield leaders from accountability, and enable harmful behavior to continue.

It is deeply concerning when family members, including parents and grandparents, continue to support such groups and leaders, placing loyalty to the organization above the well-being of their own children and grandchildren. This pattern often repeats itself, with each generation continuing the same destructive behavior.

 

Not valiant.  Not thy brothers keeper.  Not included in the "righteous among nations.   

Joined Hitler's army,  sent kids to the youth programs, appointed Nazi church leaders, posted "Jews not welcome" signs on church buildings, and ousted Jewish converts.  Swastika printed on church programs.  Excommunicated the one poor kid who did not support Hitler.  ... Blacks not allowed to hold the priesthood.  Women not allowed to hold the priesthood.  Pedophiles are given the priesthood though, pedophiles and Nazi's.

 

Cognitive dissonance.  Those outside the church clearly see it.

 

 

"Now, due to the importance given to the racial question, and the almost necessity of proving that one’s grandmother was not a Jewess, the old record books have been dusted off and stand ready and waiting for use. No questions are asked. In fact some of the Saints instead of being refused by the pastors now have received letters of encouragement complimenting them for their patriotism.” - https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=Aul-kAQHnToC&dat=19331209&printsec=frontpage

I think we've been patient and respectful in attempting to answer your questions/accusations, but it's become apparent that you aren't interested in any of that.  It seems like you are very angry, are invested in that anger, and are mostly interested in continuing to justify it by ignoring any references and sources that would undermine it.

With all due respect, this is a discussion board.  If you aren't interested in genuine discussion and just want to be angry, then that's fine, no hard feelings.  We all have our stuff.  Just be honest about it so that we aren't wasting our energy attempting a sincere conversation.

[Tony uk]

Since I arrived on the Mormon Dialogue, a number of weeks ago. I have kept my posts, simple, and relevant my learning. As a non LDS, The welcome, and support that I have received has been better than I expected to be. 

 I hope that non LDS are permitted to continue, in a respectful manner, to continue to contribute to this dialogue.

[Raingirl]

2 hours ago, Autonomous said:

From appointing Nazis to leadership positions to appointing pedophiles to leadership. Not just leaders, but all the members who excuse, minimize, downplay, or rationalize the actions of those in power, as has been evident in this thread.

Some groups focus on protecting vulnerable members and marginalized individuals, while others prioritize the protection of their leaders and the organization’s reputation - hide records, shield leaders from accountability, and enable harmful behavior to continue.

It is deeply concerning when family members, including parents and grandparents, continue to support such groups and leaders, placing loyalty to the organization above the well-being of their own children and grandchildren. This pattern often repeats itself, with each generation continuing the same destructive behavior.

 

Not valiant.  Not thy brothers keeper.  Not included in the "righteous among nations.   

Joined Hitler's army,  sent kids to the youth programs, appointed Nazi church leaders, posted "Jews not welcome" signs on church buildings, and ousted Jewish converts.  Swastika printed on church programs.  Excommunicated the one poor kid who did not support Hitler.  ... Blacks not allowed to hold the priesthood.  Women not allowed to hold the priesthood.  Pedophiles are given the priesthood though, pedophiles and Nazi's.

 

Cognitive dissonance.  Those outside the church clearly see it.

 

 

"Now, due to the importance given to the racial question, and the almost necessity of proving that one’s grandmother was not a Jewess, the old record books have been dusted off and stand ready and waiting for use. No questions are asked. In fact some of the Saints instead of being refused by the pastors now have received letters of encouragement complimenting them for their patriotism.” - https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=Aul-kAQHnToC&dat=19331209&printsec=frontpage

It’s clear by this and other posts you’ve made, that your only intention in joining this forum, is to tell members that they are “wrong” about various things.  I would think that you would have better things to do with your time. 

[Pyreaux]

 

7 hours ago, Tony uk said:

Since I arrived on the Mormon Dialogue, a number of weeks ago. I have kept my posts, simple, and relevant my learning. As a non LDS, The welcome, and support that I have received has been better than I expected to be. 

 I hope that non LDS are permitted to continue, in a respectful manner, to continue to contribute to this dialogue.

Fret not, as members of a Mormonism Discussion forum, some of us engage in the art of discussion. Calm is... Well, calm. There are welcome atheistic critics of Mormonism here, but we also get these hyperbolic newbies that engage in logical fallacies.

A Red Herring Fallacy is an example of a deceptive tactic that diverts attention away from the real issue at hand, steering the conversation towards a different, often unrelated, topic.

Think of it as the magician's sleight of hand but in conversation. While a magician diverts your attention to perform a trick, a red herring pulls your focus away from the main issue to something else. In debates or discussions, this tactic muddles the waters and makes it harder to get to the truth.

When being asked for sources or the sources are questioned, instead of admitting defeat or simply saying, "I don't know," they throw in a distraction to avoid appearing weak. The concern might be real but it's a red herring if it's used to dodge the actual issue at hand. Noticing it enables us to stick to the topic and avoid time-wasting detours. It's a skill that can elevate your communication prowess.

When this anti-Mormon is losing the topic he started on LDS prophets not predicting wars or Armageddon, it shifted to an accusation of supporting Nazis. When he is asked for a source, he misquotes a vital part of the source. When asked where the misquote came from (likely an unreliable websource). He claimed, "It's been years since reading that book" and when pressed again, finds a way to blame Mormons, saying "Mormon relatives tend to take things from my home." Now this.

8 hours ago, Autonomous said:

From appointing Nazis to leadership positions to appointing pedophiles to leadership. Not just leaders, but all the members who excuse, minimize, downplay, or rationalize the actions of those in power, as has been evident in this thread.

Some groups focus on protecting vulnerable members and marginalized individuals, while others prioritize the protection of their leaders and the organization’s reputation - hide records, shield leaders from accountability, and enable harmful behavior to continue.

It is deeply concerning when family members, including parents and grandparents, continue to support such groups and leaders, placing loyalty to the organization above the well-being of their own children and grandchildren. This pattern often repeats itself, with each generation continuing the same destructive behavior.

Not valiant.  Not thy brothers keeper.  Not included in the "righteous among nations.   

Joined Hitler's army,  sent kids to the youth programs, appointed Nazi church leaders, posted "Jews not welcome" signs on church buildings, and ousted Jewish converts.  Swastika printed on church programs.  Excommunicated the one poor kid who did not support Hitler.  ... Blacks not allowed to hold the priesthood.  Women not allowed to hold the priesthood.  Pedophiles are given the priesthood though, pedophiles and Nazi's.

Cognitive dissonance.  Those outside the church clearly see it.

A Red Herring fallacy is evident as a diversion from the original topic to generally making sweeping and unsubstantiated claims about the Church. Other fallacies are now at play, such as Ad Hominem attacks (attacking the character of LDS believers instead of addressing the beliefs or practices) and Straw Man Fallacy (misrepresenting the LDS community's actions or beliefs in an exaggerated way to make them easier to criticize). There are also Appeals to Emotion as they describe situations with charged language ("deeply concerning," "cognitive dissonance") to provoke an emotional response rather than engaging with evidence.

Then is the False Dilemma. He presents the situation as if there are only two options: either support the Church or align with its alleged abuses and harmful actions. This ignores nuance and historical context that might explain certain aspects of history.

There is no credible evidence that the LDS Church supported Nazi ideology. While some members of the Church in Germany may have had affiliations with the Nazi regime, I see no record of official Church leaders supporting or appointing Nazis. There is no clear evidence that the Church excommunicated members for opposing Hitler. Rather for breaking laws and capital offenses when it could lead to political instability. Hübener's excommunication was later reversed and his actions were recognized as courageous and noble.

The LDS Church, like many other large organizations, simply because of its size, there is the statistical possibility that a small percentage of these members and leaders could associate with a negative group or even engage in crime.

The Church is distinct in that it calls so many, and cycles through several, local leaders so often, drawn from the community, all are laypeople who volunteer for leadership positions and generally have little to no formal training in governance or child protection. This can increase the likelihood of individuals being in positions of authority without proper oversight or understanding of how to handle sensitive issues like abuse. It has worked to improve safeguards, such as requiring background checks for leaders and implementing stricter policies about reporting abuse.

It cannot be conflated with other infamous Church's scandals, where abusive clergy were reassigned to different parishes, the LDS Church does not have any widespread patterns of covering up or moving known abusers. The church has faced criticism regarding the internal processes for reporting or dealing with accusations of abuse, it’s a completely different situation. In comparison to other secular organizations, schools, sports teams, and businesses that have also been caught up in scandals stand in stark contrast to the LDS Church, where there hasn't been any known pattern to any abuse or a systemic cover-up.

Edited December 10, 2024 by Pyreaux

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

Calm is... Well, calm

There is a reason I chose that name. It’s great at triggering enough embarrassment when I get tempted to get too invested in chewing someone out, lol

”When asking for sources or questioning the sources, instead of admitting defeat or simply saying, "I don't know,"”

I always admire posters who say “I don’t know, can you help me change that” even when I know I am not going to change their mindset.  I am here to learn and like helping others do the same.  It’s much more fun when everyone is focused on this even if they are also here to do a bit of debating as well as discussing.  I do admit to being a bit annoyed with myself when someone beats me to a good source, but no way would I be able to find everything that has been collected on the board over the years on my own. It wouldn’t occur to me to look in certain places for one thing.

Edited December 10, 2024 by Calm

[MiserereNobis]

18 hours ago, Calm said:

There is a reason I chose that name. It’s great at triggering enough embarrassment when I get tempted to get too invested in chewing someone out, lol

”When asking for sources or questioning the sources, instead of admitting defeat or simply saying, "I don't know,"”

I always admire posters who say “I don’t know, can you help me change that” even when I know I am not going to change their mindset.  I am here to learn and like helping others do the same.  It’s much more fun when everyone is focused on this even if they are also here to do a bit of debating as well as discussing.  I do admit to being a bit annoyed with myself when someone beats me to a good source, but no way would I be able to find everything that has been collected on the board over the years on my own. It wouldn’t occur to me to look in certain places for one thing.

I thought you were all drugged up when you changed it from Calmoriah  

[The Nehor]

On 12/8/2024 at 7:13 PM, rpn said:

After reading the Left Behind series 10-15 years ago, I know that the leadership of the way at least baptist/evangelical leaders is insufficient to comfort and guide during times of great trouble.   The faithful god loving people in those books were always seeking what we have in prophets called of God.

The “heroes” in those books were selfish and sorely lacking in virtue. They are what you get when someone lacking any understanding of what virtue is tries to write a heroic character.

[Calm]

8 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

I thought you were all drugged up when you changed it from Calmoriah  

I was…it was after surgery in the hospital.  My first reason was it took way too long to type in Calmoriah, like eons, so of course that had to change.  And since I didn’t want to confuse people, shortening it rather than changing it seemed like a good idea.  The other reasonable option is Cal which I like written, but for some reason don’t like the sound of it much, so I wanted to avoid having to hear it all the time I was reading (as I vocalize words).  I was thinking Moriah as I love that name even though it wasn’t as short as I wanted (four letters or less makes for the best nicknames in my view) until Calm struck me like a bolt out of the blue.

The fact that I could shortened it to Calm was a sign it was meant to be as that would be a brilliant reminder in helping me stay civil when I struggled with it.

I completely missed (due to the drugs no doubt) how embarrassed I would be if someone actually called me that, how arrogant it sounded to label myself that.  Took me forever to get used to and still get the burn if called that face to face.

Edited December 12, 2024 by Calm

[Robert F. Smith]

On 12/8/2024 at 8:14 AM, Autonomous said:

.........................

I am curious why there are no threads in this forum about the Israeli war. 

Other Christian groups, such as evangelical Christians and the various dispensationalist communities, view the current conflict as the beginning of Armageddon, in line with biblical prophecies. In this forum, I see frequent references to Hebrew scriptures and attempts to discuss translations and use the occasional Hebrew word, yet there seems to be no commentary on the Israeli war in this forum. Why is that?  That other Christian groups have meetings and study so much about biblical prophecies - but not so much here?

This board (MDDB) tends to dislike politics.  In addition, we Latter-day Saints have a living Prophet assisted by a council of prophets.  Other groups are constantly announcing "Armageddon," only to turn out to be false prophets.

On 12/8/2024 at 8:14 AM, Autonomous said:

Examples of what many other Christian groups are saying right now –

....................................

............. everyone else is glued to the news, but LDS folks seem apathetic to it all, just ignore it all?  Does no one in the LDs church see 1948 as the clear fulfillment of prophecies from the Bible? or what is happening now as fulfilling prophecies?  For a group claiming to have a prophet, others seem to be much better at understanding current events, and having actually predicted current events, and understanding them, and talking about them in light of prophecies.  ................................

Other people had it figured out, predicted, before it happened...............

LDS folks are simply more responsible, not apathetic.

Those other groups did not predict the 1967 Six Day War, which ended with Israeli possession of Jerusalem for the first time in 2,000 years.[1]  I saw Jews break down and cry when that happened.  I put my rifle, bandolier of ammo, and my steel helmet aside, and cried with them.  One Israeli even said to me in Hebrew, "We didn't think there was a God.  Maybe we were wrong."

[1] However, Adam Clarke's Commentary (1830), did predict this based on Alexander’s conquest of Persia in June of 334 BC (Daniel 8:5,14, 2300 days/years = 1967), https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/acc/daniel-8.html .

[Stargazer]

On 12/9/2024 at 4:40 AM, Autonomous said:

Latter-day Saint historian Roger P. Minert has written extensively on Latter-day Saints in Germany before and during WW2. He estimates that "perhaps as many as 1,800 Latter-day Saints in Germany and Austria performed active military service between 1939 and 1945 .

I served my mission in Germany from 1972-74. My mission president had served in the German army during WW2, as a fairly new convert. He didn't volunteer, but was drafted, and served as a medic, mostly on the Eastern front. Immediately after the war, he was called to serve as a full-time missionary in the Soviet zone, and while doing so was imprisoned at least once by the Soviet occupiers.

One of my fathers-in-law (not LDS) served in the German army during the pre-WW2 years, and after his term worked as a machinist in a arms factory. He died in Soviet forced labor after the war.

I suppose you wish to express deep horror or condemnation upon men caught up in the war on the wrong side? 

 

[sunstoned]

The Stake janitor (back when they paid members to do this) in one of my mission areas in Illinois was drafted into the German Army in WW2 and sent to the Eastern Front.  He was captured by the Russians and was a prisoner of war for two years.  When you are drafted, you go.  There is really not much of a choice.

[rodheadlee]

On 12/8/2024 at 7:14 AM, Autonomous said:

Reading the news this morning - Netanyahu has orchestrated the fall of the Syrian regime. (The Assad regime was a central link to Iran, Israel's war with Iran and Hezbollah, the main supporters of the Assad regime, made possible the fall of Syrian government last night.  The Syrian side of Mount Hermon is now occupied by the Israeli Air Force, they walked in, no resistance.)

I am curious why there are no threads in this forum about the Israeli war. 

Other Christian groups, such as evangelical Christians and the various dispensationalist communities, view the current conflict as the beginning of Armageddon, in line with biblical prophecies. In this forum, I see frequent references to Hebrew scriptures and attempts to discuss translations and use the occasional Hebrew word, yet there seems to be no commentary on the Israeli war in this forum. Why is that?  That other Christian groups have meetings and study so much about biblical prophecies - but not so much here?

 

Examples of what many other Christian groups are saying right now –

“The Bible tells us in the end times that Israel would be scattered and regathered. This has happened, and this really was the sign that set the prophetic clock ticking. On the heels of the Holocaust, who would have ever thought that these Jewish people who lost six million lives to the Nazis would somehow regather in their homeland, but it happened, against all odds. And on May 14, 1948, Israel became a nation. I’m proud to say the United States was the first nation to acknowledge that. But after Israel was regathered, the Lord said she would come under attack. Specifically in Ezekiel 37 and 38, the Bible speaks of the regathering of Israel, and then it speaks of a large force from her north attacking her. That force is identified as Magog...Russia...Iran... - https://harvest.org/resources/gregs-blog/post/war-in-israel-a-fulfillment-of-bible-prophecy/

Or https://cbn.com/news/world/are-we-end-times-biblical-prophecies-involving-israel-fears-annihilation-and-more

https://allisrael.com/bible-prophecy-says-the-world-will-turn-against-israel-in-the-last-days-is-it-happening-now

https://youtu.be/E50M4AAl2eI?si=9EW9GimO9Wb3i5Q1  Israel-Hamas War: Bible Prophecy and God's Plan For Israel

etc. etc. etc.... everyone else is glued to the news, but LDS folks seem apathetic to it all, just ignore it all?  Does no one in the LDs church see 1948 as the clear fulfillment of prophecies from the Bible? or what is happening now as fulfilling prophecies?  For a group claiming to have a prophet, others seem to be much better at understanding current events, and having actually predicted current events, and understanding them, and talking about them in light of prophecies.  

This map - 

Other people had it figured out, predicted, before it happened

https://biblestudentarchives.com/israel.html#reload

What exactly does "end times" mean? What is it the end of?  Don't you EVs find it interesting that the US is not mentioned in the battle of Arramegedon? Do you think you'll be "caught up" before the Great Tribulation?

[InCognitus]

18 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

What exactly does "end times" mean? What is it the end of? 

I often thought that the Left Behind book series (and movies) would get the "end" times right if first sequel had been named:  Right Behind: Turning the Other Cheek

[The Nehor]

On 12/22/2024 at 11:07 PM, InCognitus said:

I often thought that the Left Behind book series (and movies) would get the "end" times right if first sequel had been named:  Right Behind: Turning the Other Cheek

I read all those books. I was rooting for the AntiChrist. Then I realized that in the series that Christ and the AntiChrist were sort of on the same side. God had a bigger body count than Satan. It is not the story of the Lamb defeating the Horny Beast of Revelation. It is more the Hornier Beast of God beating up the Horny Beast of the Dragon.

Also the misogyny and pride and arrogance and callousness of the heroes of those novels is just disgusting. Add in that no one in the novels reacts like a human. Every child on Earth and a substantial number of adults all vanish and it seems like most everyone mostly forgets about it a few weeks later. Somehow it gets a “Pacifist” into power. Wouldn’t it be more likely to lead to autocrats promising to find the missing kids or to get revenge on whoever or whatever took them? The “hero” journalist finds out about all kinds of dark dealings but makes deals with evil people to squash the stories for protection. Later he just refuses to share the truth for no good reason. Every nation on Earth suddenly surrenders their sovereignty to the UN for no reason.

Cause and effect don’t seem to matter at all. Very badly written books written by bad people with bad ideas.

[InCognitus]

44 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I read all those books. I was rooting for the AntiChrist. Then I realized that in the series that Christ and the AntiChrist were sort of on the same side. God had a bigger body count than Satan. It is not the story of the Lamb defeating the Horny Beast of Revelation. It is more the Hornier Beast of God beating up the Horny Beast of the Dragon.

Also the misogyny and pride and arrogance and callousness of the heroes of those novels is just disgusting. Add in that no one in the novels reacts like a human. Every child on Earth and a substantial number of adults all vanish and it seems like most everyone mostly forgets about it a few weeks later. Somehow it gets a “Pacifist” into power. Wouldn’t it be more likely to lead to autocrats promising to find the missing kids or to get revenge on whoever or whatever took them? The “hero” journalist finds out about all kinds of dark dealings but makes deals with evil people to squash the stories for protection. Later he just refuses to share the truth for no good reason. Every nation on Earth suddenly surrenders their sovereignty to the UN for no reason.

Cause and effect don’t seem to matter at all. Very badly written books written by bad people with bad ideas.

And there is the reason I made that book series the butt of my end times joke.

[rodheadlee]

On 12/22/2024 at 9:07 PM, InCognitus said:

I often thought that the Left Behind book series (and movies) would get the "end" times right if first sequel had been named:  Right Behind: Turning the Other Cheek

I read the books long before I was in the church. I know they're fiction and I don't really think they fit at all. It's a very simplistic view of the time of the returning of Christ. I really hate that it's called the end times. It might be the end of evil but it's the beginning of a thousand years of Christ reining on Earth.

No I'll tell you the best prophetic book that came out in the seventies was called The Vision by David Wilkerson. That book at the nail on the head. I guess when I was about 17 it sort of scared me straight. It didn't last very long though. Funny thing I was never able to find the book in the early 2000s.

Edited December 25, 2024 by rodheadlee

[rodheadlee]

On 12/11/2024 at 7:36 AM, MiserereNobis said:

I thought you were all drugged up when you changed it from Calmoriah  

I liked Calmoriah better.

But She does Calm me down.

[Stargazer]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I read all those books. I was rooting for the AntiChrist. Then I realized that in the series that Christ and the AntiChrist were sort of on the same side. God had a bigger body count than Satan. It is not the story of the Lamb defeating the Horny Beast of Revelation. It is more the Hornier Beast of God beating up the Horny Beast of the Dragon.

Also the misogyny and pride and arrogance and callousness of the heroes of those novels is just disgusting. Add in that no one in the novels reacts like a human. Every child on Earth and a substantial number of adults all vanish and it seems like most everyone mostly forgets about it a few weeks later. Somehow it gets a “Pacifist” into power. Wouldn’t it be more likely to lead to autocrats promising to find the missing kids or to get revenge on whoever or whatever took them? The “hero” journalist finds out about all kinds of dark dealings but makes deals with evil people to squash the stories for protection. Later he just refuses to share the truth for no good reason. Every nation on Earth suddenly surrenders their sovereignty to the UN for no reason.

Cause and effect don’t seem to matter at all. Very badly written books written by bad people with bad ideas.

I didn't bother with the entire series. I don't remember now how far I got, but after awhile it got too improbable for my "willing suspension of disbelief" to suspend its disbelief. One of the so-called protagonists wanting to go scuba diving in the either the Tigris or the Euphrates river to see if the corpse of his deceased wife had the mark of the chosen on her forehead or not was one of those moments. 

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

I didn't bother with the entire series. I don't remember now how far I got, but after awhile it got too improbable for my "willing suspension of disbelief" to suspend its disbelief. One of the so-called protagonists wanting to go scuba diving in the either the Tigris or the Euphrates river to see if the corpse of his deceased wife had the mark of the chosen on her forehead or not was one of those moments. 

Yep, I remember that bit. I got frustrated by the idea that they are hiding fugitives from a global government yet the author seemed to think getting the fugitive into an airplane suddenly made them safe. WHAT???? They control all the airspace.