War in Israel, fall of Syria, Russia and Iran etc.

[Autonomous]

Reading the news this morning - Netanyahu has orchestrated the fall of the Syrian regime. (The Assad regime was a central link to Iran, Israel's war with Iran and Hezbollah, the main supporters of the Assad regime, made possible the fall of Syrian government last night.  The Syrian side of Mount Hermon is now occupied by the Israeli Air Force, they walked in, no resistance.)

I am curious why there are no threads in this forum about the Israeli war. 

Other Christian groups, such as evangelical Christians and the various dispensationalist communities, view the current conflict as the beginning of Armageddon, in line with biblical prophecies. In this forum, I see frequent references to Hebrew scriptures and attempts to discuss translations and use the occasional Hebrew word, yet there seems to be no commentary on the Israeli war in this forum. Why is that?  That other Christian groups have meetings and study so much about biblical prophecies - but not so much here?

 

Examples of what many other Christian groups are saying right now –

“The Bible tells us in the end times that Israel would be scattered and regathered. This has happened, and this really was the sign that set the prophetic clock ticking. On the heels of the Holocaust, who would have ever thought that these Jewish people who lost six million lives to the Nazis would somehow regather in their homeland, but it happened, against all odds. And on May 14, 1948, Israel became a nation. I’m proud to say the United States was the first nation to acknowledge that. But after Israel was regathered, the Lord said she would come under attack. Specifically in Ezekiel 37 and 38, the Bible speaks of the regathering of Israel, and then it speaks of a large force from her north attacking her. That force is identified as Magog...Russia...Iran... - https://harvest.org/resources/gregs-blog/post/war-in-israel-a-fulfillment-of-bible-prophecy/

Or https://cbn.com/news/world/are-we-end-times-biblical-prophecies-involving-israel-fears-annihilation-and-more

https://allisrael.com/bible-prophecy-says-the-world-will-turn-against-israel-in-the-last-days-is-it-happening-now

https://youtu.be/E50M4AAl2eI?si=9EW9GimO9Wb3i5Q1  Israel-Hamas War: Bible Prophecy and God's Plan For Israel

etc. etc. etc.... everyone else is glued to the news, but LDS folks seem apathetic to it all, just ignore it all?  Does no one in the LDs church see 1948 as the clear fulfillment of prophecies from the Bible? or what is happening now as fulfilling prophecies?  For a group claiming to have a prophet, others seem to be much better at understanding current events, and having actually predicted current events, and understanding them, and talking about them in light of prophecies.  

This map - 

Other people had it figured out, predicted, before it happened

https://biblestudentarchives.com/israel.html#reload

Edited December 8, 2024 by Autonomous

[telnetd]

2 hours ago, Autonomous said:

I am curious why there are no threads in this forum about the Israeli war. 

You may find out very soon.

Edited December 8, 2024 by telnetd

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Autonomous said:

am curious why there are no threads in this forum about the Israeli war.

Have you noticed the red banner at the top of the page?

Sich threads may start out religiously themed, inevitably someone takes it political 

Edited December 8, 2024 by Calm

[Autonomous]

37 minutes ago, Calm said:

Have you noticed the red banner at the top of the page?

Sich threads may start out religiously themed, inevitably someone takes it political 

 

The old testament, and book of Mormon  - filled with wars, and prophecies of war....  

As an athiest, it is impressive that some groups were able to predict, using the Bible, what is happening now.  

 

LDS folks do not rely on prophets or prophecies to understand current events?

[Tony uk]

I think maybe when people talk about current events,such as this. A topic may become distracted, because of the nature of events, and the emotions of people may become distracted, from the actual topic.

[Pyreaux]

5 hours ago, Autonomous said:

Reading the news this morning - Netanyahu has orchestrated the fall of the Syrian regime. (The Assad regime was a central link to Iran, Israel's war with Iran and Hezbollah, the main supporters of the Assad regime, made possible the fall of Syrian government last night.  The Syrian side of Mount Hermon is now occupied by the Israeli Air Force, they walked in, no resistance.)

I am curious why there are no threads in this forum about the Israeli war. 

Other Christian groups, such as evangelical Christians and the various dispensationalist communities, view the current conflict as the beginning of Armageddon, in line with biblical prophecies. In this forum, I see frequent references to Hebrew scriptures and attempts to discuss translations and use the occasional Hebrew word, yet there seems to be no commentary on the Israeli war in this forum. Why is that?  That other Christian groups have meetings and study so much about biblical prophecies - but not so much here?

 

Examples of what many other Christian groups are saying right now –

“The Bible tells us in the end times that Israel would be scattered and regathered. This has happened, and this really was the sign that set the prophetic clock ticking. On the heels of the Holocaust, who would have ever thought that these Jewish people who lost six million lives to the Nazis would somehow regather in their homeland, but it happened, against all odds. And on May 14, 1948, Israel became a nation. I’m proud to say the United States was the first nation to acknowledge that. But after Israel was regathered, the Lord said she would come under attack. Specifically in Ezekiel 37 and 38, the Bible speaks of the regathering of Israel, and then it speaks of a large force from her north attacking her. That force is identified as Magog...Russia...Iran... - https://harvest.org/resources/gregs-blog/post/war-in-israel-a-fulfillment-of-bible-prophecy/

Or https://cbn.com/news/world/are-we-end-times-biblical-prophecies-involving-israel-fears-annihilation-and-more

https://allisrael.com/bible-prophecy-says-the-world-will-turn-against-israel-in-the-last-days-is-it-happening-now

https://youtu.be/E50M4AAl2eI?si=9EW9GimO9Wb3i5Q1  Israel-Hamas War: Bible Prophecy and God's Plan For Israel

etc. etc. etc.... everyone else is glued to the news, but LDS folks seem apathetic to it all, just ignore it all?  Does no one in the LDs church see 1948 as the clear fulfillment of prophecies from the Bible? or what is happening now as fulfilling prophecies?  For a group claiming to have a prophet, others seem to be much better at understanding current events, and having actually predicted current events, and understanding them, and talking about them in light of prophecies.  

This map - 

Other people had it figured out, predicted, before it happened

https://biblestudentarchives.com/israel.html#reload

Latter-day Saints generally do not focus as heavily on Armageddon in the same way that many Evangelical groups do, and there are several reasons for this. Here's a breakdown of some of the potential explanations, including the historical context, doctrinal differences, and strategic considerations:

1. No New Doctrine

A Lack of Modern Revelation on Armageddon: While the LDS Church has detailed teachings about the "Second Coming of Christ" and the events that precede it, it doesn’t have as much emphasis on a specific "Armageddon" in the traditional sense that Evangelicals often discuss. For example, the term "Armageddon" itself is only briefly mentioned in LDS scripture, such as in Doctrine and Covenants (D&C 45:45-47), but it's framed more within the broader context of the Second Coming rather than as a specific, catastrophic event.

A Focus on the Millennial Era: The LDS Church tends to emphasize the belief in the establishment of Christ’s Millennial reign, a time of peace and righteousness that will follow the Second Coming. While some events, like wars or turmoil, are predicted to precede this, the focus is more on the hope for peace and restoration rather than apocalyptic destruction.

2. Cultural Context

Protestant Influence on Early Converts: Early converts to the LDS Church were often from Protestant backgrounds where discussions about Armageddon were prevalent, especially in the 19th century when many evangelical groups were predicting the imminent return of Christ. LDS converts likely already had a basic understanding of the traditional Protestant views on Armageddon, and the Church may have found little to add in this regard. Instead, the LDS Church focused more on its unique teachings, such as the restoration of the gospel, priesthood authority, and the establishment of the kingdom of God on earth.

Caution of Apocalyptic Predictions: The LDS Church historically has been cautious about apocalyptic predictions and sensationalism. For example, while there are teachings on the signs of the times and the Second Coming, the LDS Church is generally careful not to make specific predictions or overly speculate on when or how these events will unfold. This stands in contrast to many Evangelical groups, which sometimes get caught up in political and geopolitical speculations, labeling contemporary figures as the Antichrist or predicting specific dates for the end of the world. They are constantly in error.

3. Theological Implications

A Different Emphasis: The LDS Church does not reject the concept of a coming "apocalypse" or a period of tribulation but integrates it into a broader, hopeful narrative. The focus tends to be on the restoration era, the building of Zion, and the eventual return of Jesus Christ to reign for a thousand years, rather than on destruction or a dramatic "end of the world" scenario. Thus, the church's teachings on these matters tend to emphasize preparation and righteousness rather than obsessing over global crises or speculative political situations.

What Armageddon is: For many Evangelicals, Armageddon represents a final, violent showdown between good and evil, often framed in a literal, geographic sense. The LDS Church, however, may interpret the "war" of Armageddon, like the Great Apostasy, not necessarily as a violent one-time event, but a more aethereal force, a spiritual battle between righteousness and wickedness, which could be manifest in a variety of ways and forms.

4. Strategic Considerations

Avoiding Unnecessary Speculation: The church is more prudent than some Evangelical groups, its leaders have been careful about avoiding sensationalism, especially with respect to current political events and prophecies. Given the history of failed prophecies and apocalyptic predictions made by various groups, it is perhaps wise and diplomatic for the LDS Church to refrain from tying the Second Coming too directly to current events. This contrasts with Evangelicals, some of whom have been more eager to link political situations, particularly in the Middle East, to biblical prophecies. Such predictions often result in disillusionment when they fail to materialize, which the LDS Church likely wants to avoid.

Hope Over Fear: Some Hell-fire and Doomsday Evangelical groups sometimes focus on the fear of the coming days, the LDS Church tends to emphasize preparedness and hope for what will be, no matter the signs of the times, always preparing spiritually and physically for the Second Coming without excessive focus on the fear or turmoil that may precede it. This approach helps the church maintain a hopeful and faithful perspective, rather than one of anxiety or obsession with imminent destruction.

5. Political and Cultural Sensitivity

Global Perspective: Many Evangelicals tie their views on Armageddon and the Second Coming to political events. The LDS Church, being a global faith with members from all over the world, may prefer to avoid becoming embroiled in localized political debates or assigning apocalyptic significance to contemporary political figures or events. This diplomatic distance allows them to avoid the political entanglements that some Evangelicals may engage in, which can lead to controversy or backlash when predictions turn out to be false.

The Prophecies:

Many Christian groups, particularly those influenced by dispensationalism, interpret events like Israel's regathering and current Middle Eastern tensions as directly fulfilling prophecies from books like Ezekiel, Daniel, and Revelation. They see Israel’s establishment in 1948 as a key prophetic milestone that sets the "clock" ticking toward Armageddon, where major global powers, such as Russia (Magog) and Iran, will attack Israel in the final days.

However, whether specific regional wars (like those involving Israel) is fulfilling prophecy depends on the subjectivity of prophecy interpretation. Prophecies in scriptures such as Ezekiel 37-38, Daniel, and Revelation are open to a wide range of interpretations. 

For example, Ezekiel’s prophecy about the attack from "Gog and Magog" from the "north" has been interpreted as referring to various countries, from ancient enemies of Israel to modern powers like Russia and Iran. This interpretation is far from universally agreed upon, and many scholars and religious leaders argue that these prophecies could be symbolic of larger spiritual battles, rather than specific geopolitical events.

Falsely Identified Candidates from the Past:

The Roman Empire (Early Christian Interpretations)

Early Christian interpreters, particularly during the first few centuries, often viewed the Gog and Magog prophecy in the context of the Roman Empire. Some believed that the Roman Empire's eventual fall (in the 5th century AD) was a fulfillment of this prophecy, interpreting it as an apocalyptic struggle between Christianity and the Roman state, which was seen as a persecutor of Christians.

The Huns (4th–5th centuries AD)

During the time of the Huns' invasions in Europe, some Christian theologians, particularly in the 4th and 5th centuries, saw the Huns under Attila as the fulfillment of Ezekiel's prophecy. They were seen as a barbarian nation coming from the "north" that threatened the Christian world. Attila's invasions were seen as a potential sign of the impending end times.

The Mongols (13th–14th centuries AD)

In the 13th and 14th centuries, as the Mongol Empire expanded under Genghis Khan and his successors, many Christian scholars and apocalyptic thinkers pointed to the Mongols as the fulfillment of Ezekiel’s prophecy about Gog and Magog. Their conquests, particularly across Europe and Asia, seemed to fulfill the idea of a great northern power threatening Israel.

The Ottoman Empire (16th–19th centuries)

During the height of the Ottoman Empire, particularly in the 16th and 17th centuries, some Christian groups believed the Ottomans could represent Gog and Magog. They saw the Ottoman invasions and their eventual siege of Christian cities like Vienna as signs that the empire was the northern invader prophesied in Ezekiel.

Napoleon Bonaparte (Early 19th century)

In the early 19th century, during Napoleon’s conquests across Europe, some Bible interpreters saw Napoleon’s rise as fulfilling the role of Gog, with France as the invading force from the north. Napoleon's eventual defeat and the failure of his empire to bring about the predicted end times led to the abandonment of this interpretation.

Edited December 8, 2024 by Pyreaux

[Calm]

22 minutes ago, Autonomous said:

LDS folks do not rely on prophets or prophecies to understand current events?

Yes, but there are debates and very strong opinions about politics that lead to contentious and useless arguments…the board’s owner has decided even if relevant to the board’s topics, politics needs to be avoided.  If a political thread gets started it may not get automatically locked these days, but when discussion turns to arguments, it will and so most board participants abide by the rules and never start such threads.  You can get banned for breaking the rules after all.

[Calm]

17 minutes ago, Tony uk said:

I think maybe when people talk about current events,such as this. A topic may become distracted, because of the nature of events, and the emotions of people may become distracted, from the actual topic.

They tend to quickly become personal.

[bluebell]

44 minutes ago, Autonomous said:

 

The old testament, and book of Mormon  - filled with wars, and prophecies of war....  

As an athiest, it is impressive that some groups were able to predict, using the Bible, what is happening now.  

 

LDS folks do not rely on prophets or prophecies to understand current events?

I actually wouldn't be surprised if a thread like that shows up on the main board.  It's an acceptable topic, if people can stay away from politics. 

But I'm with the others on this thread, chances of that happening are pretty slim. Politics always finds a way in and then it devolves into personal insults and both sides calling the other side immoral.  You deal with a few dozen or so of those kinds of conversations over the years and it begins to be obvious why Nemesis decided politics were forbidden. 

It's like me with my kids' playstation.  If you can't stop fighting with each other while you're on it then you can't play it at all.   

[Autonomous]

Here's just a couple scriptures:

 

Zechariah 14:2-3
"For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle... Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle."

 

Do LDS believe Jews/Israel is being talked about here?  Or do they believe themselves to be "Jerusalem",  in which case, ignore the OT, and explain history of God fighting great battles for LDS folks (as opposed to this scripture talking about OT battles)

Amos 9:14-15
"And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof."

 

How do lds interpret the above?  Who is "Israel" in your eyes?  What / where is the waste city?

Or lds do not understand/explain/talk about anything like this??  I thought you used Bible?  Claimed to understand bible?

 

[Calm]

Lesson 48 at the end deals with this topic if you are interested in how it’s been taught in church.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/language-materials/35570_eng.pdf

Edited December 8, 2024 by Calm

[CV75]

8 hours ago, Autonomous said:

Reading the news this morning - Netanyahu has orchestrated the fall of the Syrian regime. (The Assad regime was a central link to Iran, Israel's war with Iran and Hezbollah, the main supporters of the Assad regime, made possible the fall of Syrian government last night.  The Syrian side of Mount Hermon is now occupied by the Israeli Air Force, they walked in, no resistance.)

I am curious why there are no threads in this forum about the Israeli war. 

Other Christian groups, such as evangelical Christians and the various dispensationalist communities, view the current conflict as the beginning of Armageddon, in line with biblical prophecies. In this forum, I see frequent references to Hebrew scriptures and attempts to discuss translations and use the occasional Hebrew word, yet there seems to be no commentary on the Israeli war in this forum. Why is that?  That other Christian groups have meetings and study so much about biblical prophecies - but not so much here?

 

Examples of what many other Christian groups are saying right now –

“The Bible tells us in the end times that Israel would be scattered and regathered. This has happened, and this really was the sign that set the prophetic clock ticking. On the heels of the Holocaust, who would have ever thought that these Jewish people who lost six million lives to the Nazis would somehow regather in their homeland, but it happened, against all odds. And on May 14, 1948, Israel became a nation. I’m proud to say the United States was the first nation to acknowledge that. But after Israel was regathered, the Lord said she would come under attack. Specifically in Ezekiel 37 and 38, the Bible speaks of the regathering of Israel, and then it speaks of a large force from her north attacking her. That force is identified as Magog...Russia...Iran... - https://harvest.org/resources/gregs-blog/post/war-in-israel-a-fulfillment-of-bible-prophecy/

Or https://cbn.com/news/world/are-we-end-times-biblical-prophecies-involving-israel-fears-annihilation-and-more

https://allisrael.com/bible-prophecy-says-the-world-will-turn-against-israel-in-the-last-days-is-it-happening-now

https://youtu.be/E50M4AAl2eI?si=9EW9GimO9Wb3i5Q1  Israel-Hamas War: Bible Prophecy and God's Plan For Israel

etc. etc. etc.... everyone else is glued to the news, but LDS folks seem apathetic to it all, just ignore it all?  Does no one in the LDs church see 1948 as the clear fulfillment of prophecies from the Bible? or what is happening now as fulfilling prophecies?  For a group claiming to have a prophet, others seem to be much better at understanding current events, and having actually predicted current events, and understanding them, and talking about them in light of prophecies.  

This map - 

Other people had it figured out, predicted, before it happened

https://biblestudentarchives.com/israel.html#reload

Speaking to our general character (there are exceptions), because no one knows the day or the time of the Second Coming, which is the primary event to remember, there is no sense in getting all "het" up about it. Some have a keen interest in this topic for personal reasons. We have been preparing as a people for 200 years. The preparation is fundamentally spiritual, so that helps with addressing the expediencies that arise, individually and collectively, sooner or later (in the Lord's time).

[Pyreaux]

1 hour ago, Autonomous said:

Here's just a couple scriptures:

 

Zechariah 14:2-3
"For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle... Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle."

 

Do LDS believe Jews/Israel is being talked about here?  Or do they believe themselves to be "Jerusalem",  in which case, ignore the OT, and explain history of God fighting great battles for LDS folks (as opposed to this scripture talking about OT battles)

Amos 9:14-15
"And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof."

 

How do lds interpret the above?  Who is "Israel" in your eyes?  What / where is the waste city?

Or lds do not understand/explain/talk about anything like this??  I thought you used Bible?  Claimed to understand bible?

 

In Zechariah 14, the prophecy refers to a future gathering of nations against Jerusalem, followed by divine intervention where the Lord fights on behalf of His people. For LDS members, this prophecy is generally seen in the context of the latter days, specifically the Second Coming of Christ.

LDS View of Jerusalem: Latter-day Saints typically believe that the literal Jerusalem will play a significant role in the events leading up to the Second Coming. However, they do not necessarily view this as an exclusive reference to the modern geopolitical state of Israel. The idea is that the prophecy could involve a dual nature, both literal Jerusalem and symbolic elements. For instance, the gathering of nations against Jerusalem could involve a physical conflict in the Middle East and spiritual battles related to the gathering of Israel.

Jerusalem and LDS Identity: While Latter-day Saints do not identify themselves as Jerusalem in this specific sense, they do believe that the gathering of Israel, mentioned in the scriptures, involves the LDS people as part of the broader gathering of the lost ten tribes. The LDS Church teaches that members of the Church are part of Israel in a spiritual sense through covenantal promises made to Abraham and his descendants. This doesn't negate the importance of literal Israel but emphasizes that all righteous people who follow Christ are part of the house of Israel, regardless of their ethnic background.

The Battle and the Second Coming: Regarding the idea of the Lord fighting against nations, Latter-day Saints believe that these prophecies are ultimately about the Second Coming of Christ. LDS doctrine holds that Jesus Christ will return to defeat the forces of evil and establish peace, but they also understand the events described in Zechariah and other prophetic texts as potentially symbolic or metaphorical in some ways, rather than being purely literal military battles.

Amos 9:14-15 speaks about the restoration of Israel, where God's people will rebuild cities and prosper. This, too, has significance in LDS theology.

Israel in LDS Belief: Latter-day Saints believe that they are part of the gathering of Israel, which includes both the literal descendants of Israel and those who are spiritually adopted into the house of Israel (including Gentiles who join the Church). The “waste cities” described in Amos could be interpreted as places that will be spiritually revived, either literally or figuratively, through the Restoration of the Gospel.

The Waste City: The “waste cities” could refer to places that have experienced spiritual decay or destruction due to sin or neglect. For example, the LDS interpretation of the gathering of Israel is not just about physical return to a land but about spiritual rebirth through faith in Christ and the rebuilding of God's covenant people. So, the waste cities could refer to nations or peoples who have been spiritually lost or fallen away, only to be restored when they embrace the gospel message.

Where is Israel?: In the LDS view, Israel is not only a geographic place but also a covenantal people. The LDS Church teaches that the Restoration of Israel is not confined to the literal land of Israel but involves the spiritual gathering of Israel, including the establishment of Zion (a place of unity and peace, which can be a spiritual and literal community). Thus, Israel today can be understood as a people who follow the gospel and are gathered from all over the world. The gathering includes both the literal descendants of Israel and those of all nations who accept the gospel.

As per your demands, it's important to understand that silence or not giving a definitive interpretation on specific prophecies is not equivalent to ignorance. The LDS Church teaches that many prophecies are still unfolding, and some aspects of these prophecies may not be fully understood until they come to pass. We study of the scriptures with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, but certain aspects of prophecy may remain mysterious until they are revealed in God's time.

The LDS Church does use the Bible and claims to have a deeper understanding of it, but the LDS perspective often focuses on understanding the spiritual significance of scriptures and how they relate to God's eternal plan rather than making specific geopolitical predictions. Prophecies about Israel, Jerusalem, and Armageddon are complex, silence on it is not a denial it could be as you say, it is an acknowledgment that prophecy may unfold in ways not yet fully understood. Isaiah's Immanuel Prophesy concerned the contemporary birth of a royal son Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz and yet is hailed by Christians much later as about the birth of Jesus Christ.

[rpn]

Other Christian Faiths don't  have prophets.   We can make our own guesses about the state of the political or geographical affairs.   But members of our faith don't need to speculate, but rather just do our best to continue becoming like Them and promoting peace.   

I'm not one to think that anything we've seen recently suggest this is the Second Coming prep.   I do know that that has been speculate every once in a while for millennia because war, after tends to unsettle us all.

(Which isn't to say that I think our country is well prepared to encourage and live peacefully with out neighbors or even among ourselves.)

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Autonomous said:

lds do not understand/explain/talk about anything like this??

Btw, there are plenty of Saints who are interested in such things.  Some are even obsessed with it, which makes them susceptible to those with less than pure motives.  Quite a few have lost their homes and savings investing in emergency supplies for the upcoming earthquakes and invasions it turns out they do not actually need.  There have been some very tragic outcomes to these stories, including but not limited to unfortunately apostasy.

[Autonomous]

Thank you for another AI generated response... 

So the LDS "prophet" is different from the prophets of old - the prophets in the stories of the OT and NT, in that the LDS prophet does not provide any information on actual wars (such as Ezekiel warning of the actual downfall of Jerusalem, or Jeremiah - Babylonians etc.), or any actual "tangible" prophecies - not like Elijah actually predicting the drought, or Elisha raising someone from the dead, or Daniel interpreting the King's dream, or Moses parting the red sea etc. etc. 

 

The evasive vague approach is a diplomatic one.  

 

Interesting, to see how the LDS church handled WW2.  While others went to concentration camps defending the Jewish people against Hitler (the JW's come to mind), the LDS church had kids in Hitler's youth group... believe in being subject to, what was that again? follow which leader?  I suppose the diplomatic circumspect approach does keep one's children alive longer.

[Autonomous]

19 minutes ago, rpn said:

Other Christian Faiths don't  have prophets.   We can make our own guesses about the state of the political or geographical affairs.   But members of our faith don't need to speculate, but rather just do our best to continue becoming like Them and promoting peace.   

I'm not one to think that anything we've seen recently suggest this is the Second Coming prep.   I do know that that has been speculate every once in a while for millennia because war, after tends to unsettle us all.

(Which isn't to say that I think our country is well prepared to encourage and live peacefully with out neighbors or even among ourselves.)

 

Other Christian faiths do have prophets - the prophets of the Bible to teach them things. 

Perhaps if you lived in one of the regions currently going through all of this stuff, but...  

Does the LDS church prevent members from joining the armed forces in their various country, any conscientious objectors? or how is peace defined?

 

16 minutes ago, Calm said:

Btw, there are plenty of Saints who are interested in such things.  Some are even obsessed with it, which makes them susceptible to those with less than pure motives.  Quite a few have lost their homes and savings investing in emergency supplies for the upcoming earthquakes and invasions it turns out they do not actually need.  There have been some very tragic outcomes to these stories, including but not limited to unfortunately apostasy.

 

Yes, I had such a family member.  Quite a mess to clean up their house after they passed away (never using any of their Armageddon supplies).  It seems older LDS prophets did request members to stockpile things... perhaps the newer prophets are a little more careful.

 

I do appreciate all the organizations in our area who run family shelters, homeless shelters, who help with medical bills - the Catholics actually run entire hospitals.  Very impressive when organizations are willing to help the permanently disabled etc.  Salvation Army is the most impressive, no great and spacious buildings for them.

 

 

 

[bluebell]

27 minutes ago, Autonomous said:

 

Other Christian faiths do have prophets - the prophets of the Bible to teach them things. 

Perhaps if you lived in one of the regions currently going through all of this stuff, but...  

Does the LDS church prevent members from joining the armed forces in their various country, any conscientious objectors? or how is peace defined?

 

 

Yes, I had such a family member.  Quite a mess to clean up their house after they passed away (never using any of their Armageddon supplies).  It seems older LDS prophets did request members to stockpile things... perhaps the newer prophets are a little more careful.

 

I do appreciate all the organizations in our area who run family shelters, homeless shelters, who help with medical bills - the Catholics actually run entire hospitals.  Very impressive when organizations are willing to help the permanently disabled etc.  Salvation Army is the most impressive, no great and spacious buildings for them.

 

 

 

I'm glad that the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints works with those organizations.  I know the Bishop's storehouse in Layton Utah gave food to the Catholic pantry weekly.  The church's mantra has always been to support (through money, food, and sometimes logistics) those organizations which are already on the ground because it would be wasteful to create two organizations doing the same things.

[bluebell]

39 minutes ago, Autonomous said:

Interesting, to see how the LDS church handled WW2.  While others went to concentration camps defending the Jewish people against Hitler (the JW's come to mind), the LDS church had kids in Hitler's youth group... believe in being subject to, what was that again? follow which leader?  I suppose the diplomatic circumspect approach does keep one's children alive longer.

There are a lot of accusations in this paragraph.  Are you meaning to come off so hostile or am I reading your tone wrong?

Most Christians in Germany during that time "supported" the nazis and most youth did end up in the Hitler Youth.  For many it was a matter of survival rather than agreement.  But not all Christians, of course, and that includes LDS Christians too. The church did try to walk a fine line between staying off the Nazi radar and living their faith.  I'm sure some did a better job than others.  I've read of some members who risked their lives to hide or save Jewish people, but I have not studied this topic very extensively. 

The Nazis were no friend to the church (believing that our religion was incompatible with their socialism and that we were too fond of "the Jews") but most members seemed to keep out of the way enough that they never got around to doing anything about it.  In the US, LDS leadership were vocally teaching that Nazi germany were criminals, but the church in Germany had little to no contact with church leadership during that time.

There were only about 15,000 saints living in Nazi germany, and only 5% of those (so around 750) joined the Nazi party.  

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Autonomous said:

It seems older LDS prophets did request members to stockpile things... perhaps the newer prophets are a little more careful.

Actually the instructions from the Church were always reasonable and thought out, the problem is many did not follow them that closely.  The idea was to not only prepare for major disasters, but for typical family crises and even daily life stuff.  I have lost track of family members and friends who have shared how their food storage has saved them in a money crunch from going into debt or how they were grateful to be able to help friends by sharing with them from their food storage.  If you do it right, you won’t have a ton of never used supplies.

Plus it can help you control your budget as  you will save quite a bit of money rotating foods you normally eat by buying in bulk when on sale or a little bit extra each time because food prices rise over time.  Where people make mistakes is buying food storage items they don’t normally eat.  If you are going to store wheat, not a bad idea to buy a grinder and bread maker as well…not for the emergency but to start eating homemade bread right now.  If you aren’t going to invest in a grinder or don’t have someone close by to borrow it from (be sure and give them some flour or some other exchange for the wear and tear), then just stick with flour.  And only buy what you will use before it goes rancid.

My mom started grinding her own wheat back in my late teens and wow, her wholewheat bread was so tasty.  Only store bought bread I like now is sourdough….and even that I am very picky on having grown up in the San Francisco area (fresh crab and fresh sourdough…what a life that was).

These days with the push for more protein, but also evidence for healthier more plant based diets, the dreaded TVP (textured vegetable protein) is even getting fans, lol.

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/what-is-tvp#benefits

Edited December 9, 2024 by Calm

[Autonomous]

6 minutes ago, bluebell said:

There are a lot of accusations in this paragraph.  Are you meaning to come off so hostile or am I reading your tone wrong?

Most Christians in Germany during that time "supported" the nazis and most youth did end up in the Hitler Youth.  For many it was a matter of survival rather than agreement.  But not all Christians, of course, and that includes LDS Christians too. The church did try to walk a fine line between staying off the Nazi radar and living their faith.  I'm sure some did a better job than others.  I've read of some members who risked their lives to hide or save Jewish people, but I have not studied this topic very extensively. 

The Nazis were no friend to the church (believing that our religion was incompatible with their socialism and that we were too fond of "the Jews") but most members seemed to keep out of the way enough that they never got around to doing anything about it.  In the US, LDS leadership were vocally teaching that Nazi germany were criminals, but the church in Germany had little to no contact with church leadership during that time.

There were only about 15,000 saints living in Nazi germany, and only 5% of those (so around 750) joined the Nazi party.  

 

Not sure if you are familiar with the book - Moroni and the Swastika: Mormons in Nazi Germany?  

Interesting to see which side of history various organizations were on in WW2, and what side they are on now.  From past civil rights to current LGBTQ... 

 

Here's an experiment for everyone - 

• google "Mormons and Muslims" - see what comes up.
• google "Mormons and Jews" - see what comes up.

Is it just my browser feeding me this stuff?  

[rpn]

You may want to watch the movie that came out this year called "Escape from Germany" about  the Saints and closing the German mission just before they closed the German border.  Yes there were Nazi members, and a bishop who excommunicated a young member (Helmut Huebner I think I remember his name being) who used church resources to make anti-nazi posters, who was hung by the Nazis.

 

After reading the Left Behind series 10-15 years ago, I know that the leadership of the way at least baptist/evangelical leaders is insufficient to comfort and guide during times of great trouble.   The faithful god loving people in those books were always seeking what we have in prophets called of God.

[Calm]

32 minutes ago, bluebell said:

The Nazis were no friend to the church (believing that our religion was incompatible with their socialism and that we were too fond of "the Jews") but most members seemed to keep out of the way enough that they never got around to doing anything about it.  In the US, LDS leadership were vocally teaching that Nazi germany were criminals, but the church in Germany had little to no contact with church leadership during that time.

There were only about 15,000 saints living in Nazi germany, and only 5% of those (so around 750) joined the Nazi party.  

https://www.deseret.com/faith/2024/11/12/nazis-disliked-latter-day-saints/
 

Quote

In the hushed corridors of Berlin’s Bundesarchiv lies a dossier of some 500 pages compiled by the Nazi Party’s intelligence agency — the Sicherheitsdienst, or SD — on an unlikely group: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The B. H. Roberts Foundation recently acquired and published this dossier which provides an unfiltered view into the regime’s scrutiny of the faith under the Nazi regime between 1933 and November 1939, two months after the war began. Surveillance reports, police files, confiscated literature, and internal Nazi correspondence reveal the Nazi government’s suspicion and disdain toward German Saints who, though law-abiding, most often carefully distanced themselves from Nazism.

As a small religious community in pre-war Germany, the church and its members faced a profound dilemma under Adolf Hitler’s regime. Confronted by Nazi ideology, which intruded upon every aspect of life, German Latter-day Saints sought to survive while remaining true to their beliefs. While a minority of Saints embraced Nazism, the pages within the Gestapo dossier illustrate the fine line the church had to walk, balancing cautious compliance with quiet defiance — while underscoring the moral complexities of maintaining one’s faith in an oppressive state.

https://bhroberts.org/projects/gestapo

Edited December 9, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

15 minutes ago, Autonomous said:

 

Not sure if you are familiar with the book - Moroni and the Swastika: Mormons in Nazi Germany?  

Interesting to see which side of history various organizations were on in WW2, and what side they are on now.  From past civil rights to current LGBTQ... 

 

Here's an experiment for everyone - 

• google "Mormons and Muslims" - see what comes up.
• google "Mormons and Jews" - see what comes up.

Is it just my browser feeding me this stuff?  

Does Nelson’s book make use of the archives now available to all through the BH Roberts Foundation?  See link in above post.

Edited December 9, 2024 by Calm

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Autonomous said:

 

Not sure if you are familiar with the book - Moroni and the Swastika: Mormons in Nazi Germany?  

Interesting to see which side of history various organizations were on in WW2, and what side they are on now.  From past civil rights to current LGBTQ... 

 

Here's an experiment for everyone - 

• google "Mormons and Muslims" - see what comes up.
• google "Mormons and Jews" - see what comes up.

Is it just my browser feeding me this stuff?  

I've googled it, and I'm familiar with Moroni and the swastika, but I couldn't comment on how the author is interpreting the sources he's using because I'm not that familiar with it.  It looks like an intriguing book.  Have you been able to read it?  Does he provide references?

(my degree is in history and I just can't read a historical book without references anymore.  Spent too much time having to debunk people's work that played fast and loose with the references they choose in order to support their biases that now I can't really trust much that doesn't back up their conclusions)

If he provides references then I'll have to check it out.  I've heard of it over the years but never got beyond mild curiosity. 

I took an intensive class that spent an entire semester dealing only with the holocaust (and no other part of WWII), from every angle you could think of.  I have always been drawn to understanding those events better, including how regular people could participate.  Most Germans, Christians and not, were not heroes in this saga.  Most of the men and women helping Hitler with his final solution, considered themselves "God-fearing" but they wanted to survive more than they wanted to help.  It was a unique environment that I do not at all understand and cannot comprehend. 

And I hope I never am put in a situation where I need to.