Autonomous Posted December 9, 2024 Author Posted December 9, 2024 our holocaust class was canceled.... no protests at my school.... keep your head low, don't say anything, except I do have students from all the different countries.... the road to Damascus.... Isaiah 7:8 For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people. → doesn't LDS claim some ties to Ephraim? Isaiah 17:1 ...Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap. Zechariah 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. - interesting to see UN support for Israel vanish. Revelation 11:8 “And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city .... where also our Lord was crucified. ... everyone agrees on what city this is. It is a religious war going on right now, many taking sides according to their various beliefs. Self-fulfilling prophecies, like Koresh bringing his own personal apocalypse on himself. Everyone claiming divine favoritism, claiming divine guidance. I wonder, for all the groups, what would convince them their side isn't divine... Japan no longer believes their emperor is divine. Perhaps after a few years, other religious beliefs will change too.
Autonomous Posted December 9, 2024 Author Posted December 9, 2024 3 hours ago, Calm said: https://www.deseret.com/faith/2024/11/12/nazis-disliked-latter-day-saints/ https://bhroberts.org/projects/gestapo Latter-day Saint historian Roger P. Minert has written extensively on Latter-day Saints in Germany before and during WW2. He estimates that "perhaps as many as 1,800 Latter-day Saints in Germany and Austria performed active military service between 1939 and 1945 . Record of 1 person who opposed. Around 1800 joined Hitler's army. About 2,800 Jehovah's Witnesses were imprisoned in concentration camps for their opposition.
blackstrap Posted December 9, 2024 Posted December 9, 2024 I know that I am not the only one praying for peace in the area and hoping people will find a way to forgive others . It cannot be that hate , war , and destruction are looked upon as good because it signals the Second Coming. Count down to thread closing in 10,9,8, ... 3
Pyreaux Posted December 9, 2024 Posted December 9, 2024 6 hours ago, Autonomous said: So the LDS "prophet" is different from the prophets of old - the prophets in the stories of the OT and NT, in that the LDS prophet does not provide any information on actual wars (such as Ezekiel warning of the actual downfall of Jerusalem, or Jeremiah - Babylonians etc.), or any actual "tangible" prophecies - not like Elijah actually predicting the drought, or Elisha raising someone from the dead, or Daniel interpreting the King's dream, or Moses parting the red sea etc. etc. The evasive vague approach is a diplomatic one. Interesting, to see how the LDS church handled WW2. While others went to concentration camps defending the Jewish people against Hitler (the JW's come to mind), the LDS church had kids in Hitler's youth group... believe in being subject to, what was that again? follow which leader? I suppose the diplomatic circumspect approach does keep one's children alive longer. Thank you for the tangential questions. True that LDS prophets might not focus on public miracles or prophetic warnings as those in the Bible (I do believe they happen, even uncirculated), they certainly offer inspired counsel that addresses global issues to nations, often through revelation and guidance that might not always be as publicly visible or sensationalized. Joseph Smith predicted the Civil War and made proposals to prevent it, President Heber J. Grant warned against the financial practices that led to the Great Depression, and more recently, LDS leaders have spoken out on issues like the sanctity of life, immigration, and peace. There are accounts like President Russel M. Nelson's sister who was raised from the dead, etc. As for World War II, I won't judge those who were concerned with their safety and preservation of their lives in a complex time, and I also don't discount the many LDS members who actively participated in humanitarian efforts and serving in the military on the side of the Allied Nations during that time. 3
Calm Posted December 9, 2024 Posted December 9, 2024 (edited) 5 hours ago, Calm said: Does Nelson’s book make use of the archives now available to all through the BH Roberts Foundation? See link in above post. @Autonomous, do you plan on answering this question? Edited December 9, 2024 by Calm 1
Calm Posted December 9, 2024 Posted December 9, 2024 (edited) 2 hours ago, Autonomous said: Latter-day Saint historian Roger P. Minert has written extensively on Latter-day Saints in Germany before and during WW2. He estimates that "perhaps as many as 1,800 Latter-day Saints in Germany and Austria performed active military service between 1939 and 1945 . Record of 1 person who opposed. Around 1800 joined Hitler's army. About 2,800 Jehovah's Witnesses were imprisoned in concentration camps for their opposition. when you quote, you need to provide a link…one reason being to keep posters’ claims accurate. As in look what you left out… Quote Latter-day Saint historian Roger P. Minert has written extensively on Latter-day Saints in Germany before and during WW2. He estimates that "perhaps as many as 1,800 Latter-day Saints in Germany and Austria performed active military service between 1939 and 1945 (but few ever volunteered). Many more served in reserve units, including hundreds who had served in the German army during World War I." https://mormonr.org/qnas/aA2rfb/latter_day_saints_and_nazi_germany Your “around 1800 joined Hitler’s army” suggests they volunteered. Edited December 9, 2024 by Calm 4
Calm Posted December 9, 2024 Posted December 9, 2024 (edited) 2 hours ago, Autonomous said: Record of 1 person who opposed. If you are referring to Huebener, again you aren’t that accurate nor respectful to those who deserve to be celebrated for their bravery. Two of his friends worked with him and were also imprisoned: Quote The only instance in which Church members offered active resistance to the German government occurred in Hamburg in 1941–1942, when teenagers Helmut Huebener, Karl-Heinz Schnibbe and Ruddi Wobbe decided to print and distribute anti-Hitler literature. As a result of their capture and prosecution, Helmut was executed and the other two imprisoned. https://bhroberts.org/records/BpdSBj-SbNmqg/roger_p_minert_calculates_german_latter_day_saint_war_losses_and_casualties But perhaps you are referring to this man: Quote The concept of “conscientious objector” did not exist in Germany’s Third Reich. Only one LDS man is known to have refused to serve in the army—Helmut Radack of the Kiel Branch (West German Mission) did so, was arrested and died in a concentration camp a year later. There was apparently one other who kept declining the request to join rather than outright refusal. His sons apparently were not as successful and died in the war. For those who did join, according to Minert, it appears serving in noncombatant roles such as medics was preferred while some of those with guns had a different way of not helping the Nazi cause, intentionally missing the target. Quote Many Saints perhaps believed that Hitler and his ruthless government would not last long in Germany. Some felt that it would be better to simply go along (despite the loss of life and property) and thus not bring upon the Church the wrath of the government. Many LDS soldiers were fortunate to serve in noncombat roles, while those in battle often sought assignments as medics or communication specialists where they would not be required to carry a weapon. Many eyewitnesses confessed to having had “a very poor aim” when firing at enemy soldiers. Acts of passive resistance were common among German and Austrian Latter-day Saints. It would be nice to point to massive resistance among the Saints from our comfy positions 90 years later. I am not going to pretend German Saints single-handedly drove Hitler from power, but making it sound like Saints were typically collaborating or supportive of the regime isn’t accurate either. Edited December 9, 2024 by Calm 4
Autonomous Posted December 9, 2024 Author Posted December 9, 2024 4 hours ago, Calm said: @Autonomous, do you plan on answering this question? It's been years since reading that book, I just ordered myself another copy as my previous copy mysteriously disappeared lol. I can post the sources used after it comes in the mail. There is an interview on tangents, "We both know why Mormons do genealogy and that’s to research and eventually baptize ancestors who have passed away so they can receive temple ordinances and they can receive eternal exaltation. We all know why the Germans did genealogy. They did genealogy to identify anybody with Jewish blood so that the Jews could eventually be eliminated from the face of the earth. … It was just one of these things where the desires and needs of the church coincided with the desires and needs of the Nazi government. The Mormons were not afraid to shout from the rooftops and put articles in the Deseret News back home with how wonderful it has become for the church now that the genealogy archives, doors have swung open, “so that everyone can prove their grandmother was not a Jewess.”... -1
bluebell Posted December 9, 2024 Posted December 9, 2024 3 hours ago, Autonomous said: It was just one of these things where the desires and needs of the church coincided with the desires and needs of the Nazi government. The Mormons were not afraid to shout from the rooftops and put articles in the Deseret News back home with how wonderful it has become for the church now that the genealogy archives, doors have swung open, “so that everyone can prove their grandmother was not a Jewess.”... Do you have a reference for this claim? An old Deseret News article? It doesn't match the Nazi records of the time. Below is a great resource for reading primary sources (sources from the actual time and people) on the topic. https://bhroberts.org/projects/gestapo Here's a Deseret News article (since you seem to trust it as an accurate source) that sums up some of the biggest findings of those records, but I included the access to the records themselves so you can go right to the source rather than depending on someone's interpretation of them. https://www.deseret.com/faith/2024/11/12/nazis-disliked-latter-day-saints/#:~:text=While Latter-day Saint leaders,of this time as well. 4
Pyreaux Posted December 9, 2024 Posted December 9, 2024 I wonder how my LDS grandfather in WWII felt about Hitler when he blew up his house in Austria (Spoiler: Hilter wasn't home at the time). I had a photo of him taken by the rubble somewhere. 4
Calm Posted December 9, 2024 Posted December 9, 2024 6 hours ago, Autonomous said: been years since reading that book, I just ordered myself another copy as my previous copy mysteriously disappeared lol. I can post the sources used after it comes in the mail. Great. Can you explain why you mysteriously disappeared the “but few volunteered” from the quote? 3
Autonomous Posted December 9, 2024 Author Posted December 9, 2024 (edited) 3 hours ago, bluebell said: Do you have a reference for this claim? An old Deseret News article? It doesn't match the Nazi records of the time. Below is a great resource for reading primary sources (sources from the actual time and people) on the topic. https://bhroberts.org/projects/gestapo Here's a Deseret News article (since you seem to trust it as an accurate source) that sums up some of the biggest findings of those records, but I included the access to the records themselves so you can go right to the source rather than depending on someone's interpretation of them. https://www.deseret.com/faith/2024/11/12/nazis-disliked-latter-day-saints/#:~:text=While Latter-day Saint leaders,of this time as well. It was from: https://gospeltangents.com/people/david-conley-nelson/ I'll get the article when the book comes in. To me, it is very simple, # of Mormons in concentration campus compared to # serving in Hitler's army, to current policies - temple work for Hitler has been done, but no temple work for holocaust victims... There's a reason Mormons were not persecuted as other religious groups were in WW2. "When the Nazi head of Hübener’s congregation found out about the arrest, he excommunicated the boy from the Mormon Church." - https://www.history.com/news/meet-the-youngest-person-executed-for-defying-the-nazis Current and past.... those who are choosing different sides in history. Edited December 9, 2024 by Autonomous -2
Autonomous Posted December 9, 2024 Author Posted December 9, 2024 58 minutes ago, Calm said: Great. Can you explain why you mysteriously disappeared the “but few volunteered” from the quote? I'm not sure about quote? Mormon relatives tend to take things from my home.... it's part of my ongoing fun for the holidays around here.
Rain Posted December 9, 2024 Posted December 9, 2024 1 hour ago, Autonomous said: It was from: https://gospeltangents.com/people/david-conley-nelson/ I'll get the article when the book comes in. To me, it is very simple, # of Mormons in concentration campus compared to # serving in Hitler's army, to current policies - temple work for Hitler has been done, but no temple work for holocaust victims... The church made an agreement with Jewish leaders to no longer do proxy work for those in the holocaust unless direct family members are doing it. LOTS of temple work has been done for them, but at least 380,000 names were removed per the agreement. This has been asked for by the Jews, not some connection between Hitler and the Mormons. I'm actually surprised you have not heard all of the controversy when members have gone in and done work despite knowing of the agreement and those names were found - not just once, but a number of times. You've made your assumption too simple. 1 hour ago, Autonomous said: There's a reason Mormons were not persecuted as other religious groups were in WW2. 1 hour ago, Autonomous said: "When the Nazi head of Hübener’s congregation found out about the arrest, he excommunicated the boy from the Mormon Church." - https://www.history.com/news/meet-the-youngest-person-executed-for-defying-the-nazis Current and past.... those who are choosing different sides in history. 3
Calm Posted December 9, 2024 Posted December 9, 2024 (edited) 1 hour ago, Autonomous said: I'm not sure about quote? Mormon relatives tend to take things from my home.... it's part of my ongoing fun for the holidays around here. Huh? You mean the book? If so, where did you get the quote to put it online in this thread? I am amazed you even let those dang Mormons in the house! Edited December 9, 2024 by Calm 1
Calm Posted December 9, 2024 Posted December 9, 2024 (edited) 2 hours ago, Autonomous said: but no temple work for holocaust victims... You are seriously comparing temple work done for Hitler by random members most likely (does he have any living relatives?) in I assume the hope that he will repent and the removal of temple ordinances of Holocaust victims out of respect for the wishes of Holocaust survivors and Jewish leaders and others? Temple work was being done the same way for Holocaust victims as it was for Hitler, without permission from families. That has been stopped (random members still attempt it, but I understand they get their privileges pulled if it continues after warning, but I have no first or secondhand knowledge that this is accurate). I think it is a good thing that respect for both the living and the dead is practiced by the Church because it is understandable that proxy temple work by the extraction program or random people who feel the need to track famous names and do the work for them for whatever reason comes across too much like forced conversions of Jews to those who don’t understand our purpose. Holocaust victims can have their temple work done by actual family. Edited December 9, 2024 by Calm 1
Calm Posted December 9, 2024 Posted December 9, 2024 Thought some might find these experiences of German Saints interesting: https://www.deseret.com/2010/6/1/20118531/german-mormons-recall-living-during-world-war-ii/
The Nehor Posted December 9, 2024 Posted December 9, 2024 On 12/8/2024 at 9:14 AM, Autonomous said: Reading the news this morning - Netanyahu has orchestrated the fall of the Syrian regime. (The Assad regime was a central link to Iran, Israel's war with Iran and Hezbollah, the main supporters of the Assad regime, made possible the fall of Syrian government last night. Netanyahu has taken credit for it. He is massively exaggerating his own importance and Israel’s importance in the process of Syria’s fall. He is not some macchiavelian mastermind who orchestrated all these events to defeat Syria. He is just claiming he was critical because he is a politician and that is what politicians do. On 12/8/2024 at 9:14 AM, Autonomous said: Examples of what many other Christian groups are saying right now – “The Bible tells us in the end times that Israel would be scattered and regathered. This has happened, and this really was the sign that set the prophetic clock ticking. On the heels of the Holocaust, who would have ever thought that these Jewish people who lost six million lives to the Nazis would somehow regather in their homeland, but it happened, against all odds. And on May 14, 1948, Israel became a nation. I’m proud to say the United States was the first nation to acknowledge that. But after Israel was regathered, the Lord said she would come under attack. Specifically in Ezekiel 37 and 38, the Bible speaks of the regathering of Israel, and then it speaks of a large force from her north attacking her. That force is identified as Magog...Russia...Iran... - https://harvest.org/resources/gregs-blog/post/war-in-israel-a-fulfillment-of-bible-prophecy/ Or https://cbn.com/news/world/are-we-end-times-biblical-prophecies-involving-israel-fears-annihilation-and-more https://allisrael.com/bible-prophecy-says-the-world-will-turn-against-israel-in-the-last-days-is-it-happening-now https://youtu.be/E50M4AAl2eI?si=9EW9GimO9Wb3i5Q1 Israel-Hamas War: Bible Prophecy and God's Plan For Israel etc. etc. etc.... everyone else is glued to the news, but LDS folks seem apathetic to it all, just ignore it all? Does no one in the LDs church see 1948 as the clear fulfillment of prophecies from the Bible? or what is happening now as fulfilling prophecies? For a group claiming to have a prophet, others seem to be much better at understanding current events, and having actually predicted current events, and understanding them, and talking about them in light of prophecies. This map - Other people had it figured out, predicted, before it happened https://biblestudentarchives.com/israel.html#reload Okay, that quote is wrong. Acting shocked that the Jews would somehow regather to Israel after the holocaust is just blatant historical ignorance. After betraying their Arab allies at the end of the First World War (Britain promised them independence from the Ottoman Empire but instead kept them under British control) the British in 1917 they issued the Balfour Declaration saying they were making Palestine a refuge for Jews and encourage migration. The League of Nations backed this in 1922 with a mandate to the British to develop the area as a Jewish homeland. The existing Muslim and Christian populations in the area were not excited about this development. Then in 1936 the British Peel Commission recommended dividing the mandate into a Jewish state and an Arab state. There were protests and anger and a lot of domestic conflict over this. Following the Second World War the British withdrew and the land carved up. So no, it wasn’t surprising that this happened after the Second World War. After being wrong about that the eschatological reading of the modern state of Israel being somehow critical to Christian eschatology is a pretty recent invention. These shift regularly. End of Days types will always be seeing every event in the news somehow means the Second Coming is imminent. LDS tend to become jaded about this as groups both within and outside our ranks cry out that the Second Coming is at the doors……again. 1
Calm Posted December 9, 2024 Posted December 9, 2024 Article by Minert…haven’t read it yet, but he is used as a source on Mormonr and got an award from the MHA, so I assume he’s decent. https://ensignpeakfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/German-and-Austrian-Latter-day-Saints-in-World-War-II-An-Analysis-of-the-Casualties-and-Losses.pdf got to say the research looks impressive
Calm Posted December 9, 2024 Posted December 9, 2024 (edited) 22 hours ago, Autonomous said: the JW's come to mind Your comment made me curious about what happened to Jéhovah Witnesses in the US since they refuse military service in every country. Apparently they were jailed in a number of Allied countries too. Religion declared illegal eve. Mob attacks, losing jobs, etc. I admire them for their commitment to their faith, but as far as I can tell their protests were limited to demanding the right to practice their own religion. According to wiki, disappointingly, but understandable they even tried to show they were not in conflict with the state (which seems a bit weird if all government is of Satan). Does anyone have info that the Witnesses were concerned with others in their efforts against the Nazis later on or was it primarily about their faith? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jehovah's_Witnesses_in_Nazi_Germany Quote On 25 June 1933, about 7000 Witnesses assembled at the Wilmersdorfer Tennishallen in Berlin, where a 3800-word "Declaration of Facts" was issued. The document, written by Watch Tower Society president Joseph Franklin Rutherford, asserted the group's political neutrality, appealed for the right to publicly preach, and claimed it was the victim of a misinformation campaign by other churches.[16]The Declaration also stated, "A careful examination of our books and literature will disclose the fact that the very high ideals held and promulgated by the present national government are set forth in and endorsed and strongly emphasized in our publications, and show that Jehovah God will see to it that these high ideals in due time will be attained by all persons who love righteousness."[6] Some 2.1 million copies of the declaration, reproduced as a four-page pamphlet, were distributed publicly throughout Germany, with a copy also sent to Hitler, accompanied by a seven-page cover letter assuring the Chancellor that the International Bible Students Association (IBSA) "was not in opposition to the national government of the German Reich", but that, to the contrary, "the entirely religious, nonpolitical objectives and efforts of the Bible Students" were "completely in agreement with the corresponding goals of the national government".[5] German historian Detlef Garbe described the declaration as part of the group's efforts to adapt at a time of increasing persecution, while Canadian historian Professor James Penton, a former Jehovah's Witness and critic of the denomination, claimed the declaration was a compromising document that proves "that Watch Tower leaders were attempting to pander to the Nazis"[17]—an allegation the Watch Tower Society rejected in a 1998 magazine article.[18] Quote Of the 43,000 who registered as COs, 6,000 refused to cooperate with Selective Service. Those men, over 4,400 of which were Jehovah’s Witnesses, went to jail. https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/conscientious-objectors-civilian-public-service#:~:text=Of the 43%2C000 who registered,Jehovah's Witnesses%2C went to jail. Edited December 9, 2024 by Calm 1
Autonomous Posted December 9, 2024 Author Posted December 9, 2024 1 hour ago, Calm said: Huh? You mean the book? If so, where did you get the quote to put it online in this thread? I am amazed you even let those dang Mormons in the house! It was quote from podcast, tangents interview. https://gospeltangents.com/2017/12/how-lds-basketball-genealogy-found-synergy-with-hitler/ Here is News article: https://vozesmormons.org/mormon-newspaper-praises-nazi-germany/
Calm Posted December 9, 2024 Posted December 9, 2024 5 minutes ago, Autonomous said: It was quote from podcast, tangents interview. Time stamp please. This is an official CFR. 1
Autonomous Posted December 9, 2024 Author Posted December 9, 2024 31 minutes ago, Calm said: Your comment made me curious about what happened to Jéhovah Witnesses in the US since they refuse military service in every country. Apparently they were jailed in a number of Allied countries too. Religion declared illegal eve. Mob attacks, losing jobs, etc. I admire them for their commitment to their faith, but as far as I can tell their protests were limited to demanding the right to practice their own religion. According to wiki, disappointingly, but understandable they even tried to show they were not in conflict with the state (which seems a bit weird if all government is of Satan). Does anyone have info that the Witnesses were concerned with others in their efforts against the Nazis later on or was it primarily about their faith? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jehovah's_Witnesses_in_Nazi_Germany https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/conscientious-objectors-civilian-public-service#:~:text=Of the 43%2C000 who registered,Jehovah's Witnesses%2C went to jail. Catholics: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_persecution_of_the_Catholic_Church_in_Poland#:~:text=From this number recorded as,or liquidated" during that time. I'm on phone, but many more groups than JW's.
Calm Posted December 9, 2024 Posted December 9, 2024 3 minutes ago, Autonomous said: Catholics: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_persecution_of_the_Catholic_Church_in_Poland#:~:text=From this number recorded as,or liquidated" during that time. I'm on phone, but many more groups than JW's. Not sure what your response had to do with my curiosity about Witnesses.
Autonomous Posted December 9, 2024 Author Posted December 9, 2024 4 minutes ago, Calm said: Time stamp please. This is an official CFR. In the text/transcript, first line under interview link. The other link has text, and copies of the news article discussed.
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