Addiction is offensive to God?

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Accountability and agency go hand in hand so that "all people are responsible for their own motives, attitudes, desires, and actions."

Wait……what?

[kllindley]

8 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Wait……what?

Hard, but I believe it. Elder Maxwell taught beautifully about "educating our desires." In this sense, I differentiate desire from urge or craving. Desire is something we can shape. Much the same way thoughts can be both automatic and intentional. The fact that some thoughts occur automatically doesn't absolve us of responsibility for those thought we consciously cultivate or choose. 

Edited October 7, 2023 by kllindley

[pogi]

23 minutes ago, JAHS said:

The addiction offends God, but not the person who is addicted. God will always have perfect and complete love for the sinner.

I tried to convince myself that is what he meant, but then he explained “why” it is offensive to God:

“Why? Because your obsession becomes your god. You look to it, rather than to Him, for solace.”

There is so much wrong with that!  

Edited October 7, 2023 by pogi

[Tacenda]

6 minutes ago, pogi said:

I tried to convince myself that is what he meant, but then he explained “why” it is offensive to God:

“Why? Because your obsession becomes your god. You look to it, rather than to Him, for solace.”

There is so much wrong with that!  

Yes and I'm pretty sure they're pouring their hearts out and praying their knees off in order to stop the addiction, and constantly have God/Jesus on the minds.

[carbon dioxide]

For me I don't believe God is offended by our addictions but he is saddened by them.   Anything that prevents us from receiving blessings hurts us in the end.  God is going to remain God regardless of what happens to us. He does not need us.  We need him. He wants to join him in exaltation but if we choose to remain in a pointless addiction that risks everything we have worked and hoped for in the billions of years in the premortal world, its a real tragedy. 

Edited October 7, 2023 by carbon dioxide

[Jehosephat]

Hello. Longtime lurker. I appreciate this forum and the many voices here. I struggle contributing to forums and getting my thoughts across so instead just read and learn from others, but this topic has saddened me so immensely that I‘m leaving the comfort of being an observer to being a contributor. 
 

I’m actually quite shaken to the core that our prophet has this mindset about addiction and teachers it from the pulpit. it saddens me that such stigma is preached from the pulpit and knowing that messages preached by leaders become adopted by members of the church as a cultural belief or norm. It worries me for the marginalized and suffering who may be harmed by these words. 
 

here is the message I would like (and expect) to hear from my leaders and wish it went more like this (bolded words are my substitutions for what Pres. Nelson actually said):
 

Any addiction — be it gaming, gambling, debt, drugs, alcohol, anger, pornography, sex or even food — saddens God. Why? Because He knows it means you are suffering. Often, it is suffering that leads to addiction, and addiction which leads to more suffering. Through the Atonement of Jesus  Christ, God stands ready to help.  So look to … Him, for solace.  Find hope and strength in His grace.  If you struggle with an addiction, seek the spiritual and professional help you need.  

To me, a loving parent would be saddened, not offended, when their child participates in a maladaptive coping strategy to try to mitigate pain or suffering. 
 

thanks  

 

 

 

[Smiley McGee]

44 minutes ago, JAHS said:

The addiction offends God, but not the person who is addicted. God will always have perfect and complete love for the sinner.

Therefore what? And how would you know God is offended if He continues to respond with perfect love? 

[Rain]

9 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

For me I don't believe God is offended by our addictions but he is saddened by them.   Anything that prevents us from receiving blessings hurts us in the end.  God is going to remain God regardless of what happens to us. He does not need us.  We need him. He wants to join him in exaltation but if we choose to remain in a pointless addiction that risks everything we have worked and hoped for in the billions of years in the premortal world, its a real tragedy. 

I also think it saddens him.

I'm not sure if he doesn't need us though. I've always thought he doesn't "need" us, but lately I've begun to wonder.

With family history we always talk about how we need our ancestors and they need us.  I don't think that is just talking about is doing the work for them.  I think it has something to do with the sealing. We don't really talk about being sealed to God, but if we are his children it seems there must be some kind of sealing there as well. 

I've been reading how when we really are there with our fellow man, when we really listen and try to understand it changes the neuron pathways of both the one listening and the one talking. Could that be the case with God as well?

I obviously don't know if God needs us or not, but now I'm open to the idea he might, not in a needy way, but in a family way. 

Edited October 7, 2023 by Rain

[Kevin Christensen]

The Twelve Steps in the Book of Mormon.

1: We admitted that we were powerless over lust, that our lives had become unmanageable.
Even so, I would that ye should remember, and always retain in remembrance…your own nothingness…and humble yourselves in the depths of humility. (Mosiah 4:11)

2: Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
And this is the means by which salvation cometh. And there is none other salvation save this… Believe in God; believe that he is, and that he created all things…believe that he has all wisdom and all power…believe that man doth not comprehend all the things the Lord can comprehend. (Mosiah 4:8-9)

3: Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood him.
But if ye will turn to the Lord with full purpose of heart, and put your trust in him,… he will, according to his own will and pleasure, deliver you out of bondage. (Mos. 7:33)

4: Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
Yeah, and I did remember all my sins and iniquities…yeah, I saw that I had rebelled against my God (Alma 36:13)
I am encompassed about because the of the temptations and sins which do easily beset me. And when I desire to rejoice, my heart groaneth because of my sins. (2 Nephi 4:18-19)

(Notice that the reason Alma repents after seeing the angel, and that Laman and Lemuel do not, is that Alma goes through a searching and fearless moral inventory, and Laman and Lemuel offer up fear, resentment, and grievance, blaming everyone but themselves.  Zeezrom, without the angel, performs a "searching fearless moral inventory."  It is not the angel, but the fourth step that is decisive.)

5: Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being, the exact nature of our wrongs.
And whosoever transgresseth against me, him shall ye judge according to the sins which he hath committed; and if he confess his sins before thee and me, and repenteth in the sincerity of his heart, him he shall forgive, and I will forgive him also. (Mosiah 26:29)

[Notice that the point of confession is not to inflict shame, but to remove it.  There is a recovery book called Healing the Shame that Binds You by John Bradshaw, showing that shame is an active component in addiction.  He distinguishes between toxic shame that says, " I am defective," and healthy shame that says, " I am human, am prone to make mistakes, and need boundaries."  Addicts have a core belief that if anyone saw who they really are, they would be rejected.  And there are valid grounds for that fear.  12 Step groups, and ideally, the Gospel, provides a social environment in which confession occurs in a setting that reduces shame.)

6: Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
“Oh God, Aaron hath told me that there is a God;…wilt thou make thyself known unto me, and I will give away all my sins to know thee…” (Alma 22:18)

7: Humbly asked God to remove our shortcomings.
Oh Lord wilt thou redeem my soul?... Wilt thou make me that I shake at the appearance of sin? (2 Nephi 4:31)
I give unto men weakness that they may humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves… and have faith in me…I will make weak things become strong unto them. (Ether 12:27)

8: Made a list of all the persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
“And they traveled throughout all the land of Zarahemla… zealously striving to repair all the injury they had done to the church, confessing all their sins…” (Mosiah 27:35)

9: Made direct amends to such people whenever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
“return unto them and acknowledge your faults and the wrong which ye have done.” (Alma 39:13)

10: Continued to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.
And now, my beloved brethren, seeing that our merciful God has given us so great knowledge concerning these things, let us remember him, and lay aside our sins, and not hang down our heads, for we are not cast off. (2 Nephi 10:20)

11: Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for his will for us and the power to carry it out.
But this was not all; they had given themselves to much prayer, and fasting; therefore they had the spirit of prophecy, and the spirit of revelation and when they taught, they taught with power and authority of God. (Alma 17:3)

12:  Having had a spiritual awakening because of these Steps, we tried to carry this message to addicts, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
And we have suffered all manner of afflictions, and all this, that perhaps we might be the means of saving some soul, and we supposed that our joy would be full if perhaps we could be the means of saving some. (Alma 26:30)

While I have run across claims that 12 step recovery is not effective, having actually done it, and also seen the effects of recovery in lives of many other people, and how recovery also affected the lives of their loves ones, I have a more positive outlook.  Plus, having been to many recovery meetings over many years, I have also noticed that the difference between those who struggle and stumble and those who succeed is very clear.  12 Step Recovery is not a pill you take that happens to you as a passive recipient, but a deliberate journey on which one must embark.  Those who do not make the personal effort required do not make progress.

Addiction is a disease, not a moral failing.  But recognizing the disease as such requires taking the responsibility for appropriate action, rather than denying responsibility on grounds that "this is just the way I am."  The disease consists of brain damage that causes increased craving, and ways of impaired thinking in service of addiction that cause impeded judgement.  Twelve step recovery addresses both aspects of the disease with appropriate actions.  The boundaries and accountability, if embraced, lead to sobriety, which gives the body a chance to heal from the chemical dependencies, whether injected or generated internally through behavior.  The stories shared, the study of addiction and recovery and conceptual reframing, the personal models of "if they can do it, I can do it," which gives alternatives to "I've tried to quit and can't, this is just the way I am" and dismantling grievance narratives, all lead to improved thinking. This healing causes real changes in the neural pathways in the brain.  Because the disease involves both thinking and feeling, it is appropriate that addiction recovery quite literally involves the sacrifice of a broken heart and a contrite spirit.

The brain operates with natural chemicals that are similar in nature and effects to morphine and other opiates.  So calling out behavioral addictions, including grievance addiction and perfectionism,  is not just a metaphor, or label but apt diagnosis calling for appropriate response, rather than self-justification, grievance, and enabling.   Because addiction is a disease, it no more appropriate to treat it with shaming or imprisonment than it would be to insult or ostrisize a broken leg or a case of COVID.

FWIW,

 

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

Edited October 8, 2023 by Kevin Christensen
typos

[bluebell]

10 hours ago, pogi said:

Framing it in such a way is precisely the problem for me.  It implies that we choose it over God for solace.  It is not a choice.  It is a disease.   He clearly states that God is offended at this.   Why would he be offended at something we don't even choose?   Framing it in such a way shows a significant misunderstanding of what this mental illness is all about.  Addiction commonly starts with toxic shame that is often generationally inherited and passed on.  That is the core.  It is not a choice.  It alters ones perspective and core beliefs about self worth/value. The pain that this shame generates becomes unbearable without learning healthy coping mechanism, which kids who are born to shame based parents never learned in childhood.  It is not taught in school.  Most kids don't have therapists to teach these healthy coping mechanism.  Addicts are usually predisposed to be addicts before they ever take their first drug - alcohol, porn, you name it.  Often, the drug finds them first, and not the other way around.   Calls and pleading to God don't take the pain away.  "There must be something wrong with me!" "I must not be righteous enough for God to answer my prayers and remove this pain".  Striving for perfection, and religious devoutness must be the answer.    It doesn't work.  No solace to be found from the pain.  It is not God's fault though.  God is faithful.  I am not. I am the problem.  Must be better!  Repent daily.  Fast.  Pray.  Cry.  Plead.  Beg.  What is wrong with me?  Then suddenly you are exposed to a new experience.  The pain is numbed.  Gone!  Then guilt creeps in.  Then the core shame that one was raised in kicks in.  Then pain.   Pray to God...pain still there.   Pray some more, repent, fast, cry to God for help.  Pain still there.  It's unbearable.  God isn't helping.  The kid doesn't know any healthy coping mechanisms.  There's that drug again - numb.  Then guilt/shame/pain... and on and on.    

I was predisposed to be an addict before I was of the age of accountability.  I was exposed to my drug before the age of accountability.  I had a reliable drug peddler before the age of accountability.  I was numbing before the age of accountability.  That kid had no chance but to become an addict!  I was that kid. 

Addiction is not a God, it is a curse.  It is what happens when one doesn't have any other healthy tools/copping mechanisms and there is no solace from the pain despite your best efforts with God.  

I don't know if you have ever experienced chronic insomnia.  The desperate need for sleep of a chronic insomniac is probably one of the closest things I have experienced to the need to numb from the pain of isolation/shame.  It is one of the most terrible things I have ever experienced.   God doesn't always just fix that for people because they righteously seek for solace in Him.  Sometimes we have to learn the hard way.   Framing this as a choice between God and addiction is like framing an insomniacs choice between God and a sleep medicine.   Without help from sleep specialists who teach healthy mechanisms, or without treating root causes of insomnia like sleep apnea, God isn't just going to give you solace in sleep.  Drugs help one sleep.  They help relieve the unbearable pain of sleeplessness where God doesn't.   It is understandable why someone who never learned healthy mechanisms or received professional help might become addicted to sleep medicines and dependent on them.  That doesn't make them their God!   It is a terrible and shaming way to frame it.  It totally mischaracterizes what addiction is.   

To say that it offends God is shaming language and is not true of the God I experience.  I used to think/feel that way.  That is partly what kept me in my shame and addiction, honestly.  Then I changed that belief.  That's when the healing began.    Framing it as a consequence of unwise use of agency is not usually true, nor is it helpful.  

I would have recommended that he approach addicts from a place of compassion rather than suggesting that they are offending God by their actions of turning to a false God.  Something like this:

"For those who are victims of the terrible grasp and disease of addiction.  My heart goes out to you in your suffering, your pain, and your righteous desires to overcome as you turn to God.  For reasons I don't fully understand, sometimes we are made to go through pain, struggle, sorrow, and addiction in life.  It is not always a choice.  But what we do with those struggles is a choice.   While it may sometimes feel like there is no balm in Gilead as we turn to God in prayer, sometimes God uses these pains of life for our benefit in the end.   Don't give up hope and please don't try to go this alone.  It is not possible without support, without coaching from professionals, without processing and healing from core issues that plague us.   Please reach out for help.  Celestial thinking alone is not a cure for addiction.  You need outside help and support.  

Ok.  I'm sorry the prophet's language on the topic of addiction has caused you hurt.

Before responding more though, I want to ask, what are you hoping to get out of our conversation?  I've explained to you my perspective and some ways and reasons that it differs from yours, but I'm not looking for you to agree with me.  Are you doing the same or is your purpose in this discussion to convince people that your perspective on this topic is the correct one?

I don't want to reply before knowing what kind of discussion you are aiming for here.   

[Nevo]

10 hours ago, Jehosephat said:

To me, a loving parent would be saddened, not offended, when their child participates in a maladaptive coping strategy to try to mitigate pain or suffering. 

Well said. I agree completely.

I think President Nelson got this one wrong. I'm inclined to give him a pass, though, because he's given so many wonderful conference talks over the past five years, and I don't expect anyone—even a prophet—to bat a thousand all the time.

If we're going to classify addiction as a moral failure, then I think Elder Lynn G. Robbins provides a surer foundation for thinking about God's response to this "failure":

Quote

While we are grateful for second chances following mistakes, or failures of the mind, we stand all amazed at the Savior’s grace in giving us second chances in overcoming sin, or failures of the heart.

No one is more on our side than the Savior. He allows us to take and keep retaking His exams. To become like Him will require countless second chances in our day-to-day struggles with the natural man, such as controlling appetites, learning patience and forgiveness, overcoming slothfulness, and avoiding sins of omission, just to name a few. If to err is human nature, how many failures will it take us until our nature is no longer human but divine? Thousands? More likely a million.

Knowing that the strait and narrow path would be strewn with trials and that failures would be a daily occurrence for us, the Savior paid an infinite price to give us as many chances as it would take to successfully pass our mortal probation. The opposition which He allows can often seem insurmountable and almost impossible to bear, yet He doesn’t leave us without hope.

To keep our hope resilient as we face life’s trials, the Savior’s grace is ever ready and ever present…. His grace and His loving eye are upon us throughout our entire journey as He inspires, lightens burdens, strengthens, delivers, protects, heals, and otherwise 'succor[s] his people,' even as they stumble along the strait and narrow path.

Repentance is God’s ever-accessible gift that allows and enables us to go from failure to failure without any loss of enthusiasm. Repentance isn’t His backup plan in the event we might fail. Repentance is His plan, knowing that we will."

— Elder Lynn G. Robbins, "Until Seventy Times Seven," https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2018/04/until-seventy-times-seven?lang=eng

 

 

Edited October 7, 2023 by Nevo

[CV75]

11 hours ago, Smiley McGee said:

So it doesn’t change God’s love or His willingness to help, he just wants us to know He’s offended?

I wouldn't put it that way; you are missing the "in our behalf / for our sake" piece, which is key. God wants to maintain a positive relationship with us, and to do that, He has shown us how to understand each other's feelings, attitudes, viewpoints, positions, etc. and communicate them with an eye toward the atoning power of His Son. We communicate with through prayer, thoughts, deeds, scripture, the Spirit, prophets, music (I could go on and on), verbally, non-verbally, etc.  I hope this helps.

[CV75]

11 hours ago, Calm said:

So how does that modify the “all are responsible…” in your view?

It may not, because in the long run, when all have an opportunity to be healed, hear the Gospel, make choices as to where they want to live, with whom, in what kind of body, etc., "all are responsible." I think if you are looking at a week in the life of a six-year-old or a week of rainy, hot weather in yours, you are not responsible; if you are looking at choices from the pre-existence through the spirit world prior to the resurrection, you are responsible. That is my view; in the end God judges these matters and our hindsight is perfect.

[MiserereNobis]

We haven't heard from him in awhile (which saddens me), but @Bernard Gui has experience with this as I remember. He had a family member that dealt with addiction and then was involved in LDS 12 step programs. Maybe he'll pop over and chime in.

Catholicism has a reputation for guilt and shame. I think I missed that because I came to it as an adult and was able to see things more clearly than if I had been a child. Thomas Merton, in his autobiography Seven Story Mountain, points out that the Sacrament of Confession is a great exemplar of God's perfect love. I know and totally see how people can view confession as a way to sin, go to the priest, say a Hail Mary and all is good and then go sin again, and how that cycle just seems wrong. But if one goes to confession with true intention, the instant absolution can be a way to be freed from shame. God forgives instantly, and will forgive again instantly, no strings attached, no punishment attached, as long as we keep coming to Him. To me, that is perfect love and forgiveness. The penance prescribed by the priest after confession, such as prayers, acts of charity, etc., are not necessary for forgiveness. Our actions do not gain forgiveness -- forgiveness is freely given by God. Penance is a way to help reorient our life. To me, this is sooo important to keep in mind. The penance does not grant us forgiveness. God grants us forgiveness, and He does so willingly, fully, and perfectly. There is nothing we can do to remove sin, except the simple yet powerful act of confession. This truth should keep us from having a "check the boxes I'll be forgiven" mentality. There are no boxes to check, there is only God's infinite love, infinite atonement, and infinite capacity to forgive as often as we confess.

A confessor (the priest who hears your confession) can be different from a spiritual director (the priest who helps guide your spiritual life). I like this. When I go to confession, it's not to have an hour long discussion about my sin. It is to confess and gain absolution and forgiveness. That's the purpose -- there's a line of people behind me also needing to confess, so we ain't spending time hashing out the minute details. At a different point in time, I can go and receive spiritual direction. This separates sin/forgiveness from ways to improve my spiritual life. I mean, obviously the two are connected, but having them separated in a practical sense really helps relieve any shame cycles. It is also helpful that I can choose my confessor and choose my spiritual director. I'm able to find a priest who works well with my spiritual path rather than having to rely solely on whatever priest happens to be assigned to my parish.

I don't think I'm expressing myself very well, here, but hopefully you get the gist of how this works in my spiritual life and why I love confession, especially traditional confession in darkened wooden confessionals.

Edited October 7, 2023 by MiserereNobis

[Chum]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I want to ask, what are you hoping to get out of our conversation? 

I'll put myself in Pogi's place and speculate: I have an understanding of humanity, repentance and of God's view of us. It's built, in no small part, from Church and prophetic teachings - particularly on later teachings. Core to my understanding is that God's view of me will never be one that causes me to hesitate to repent. Were I to know how he sees me, any worry about approaching him will evaporate.

Now we introduce the word offend into that.  Offense is the word we use to indicate love is replaced with hostility. Welcome is now rejection.

This next bit is not God's fault but it is reality and is part of this equation.  For most believers - for most Christians - for most Saints, being rejected by God makes me eligible for negative labels along with varying degrees of scorn, demonization and ostracizing. That degree ranges from unimportant to prominent to justification for passing a law that targets me.

So now I have a discontinuity. On one hand I have God's permanent state of welcoming. On the other I have God's (hopefully transient) state of rejection - and along with that, humanity's hazing campaign (often not very transient).

I think what Pogi wants is an reexamination of God's expectations of us, in the light of these non-harmonious facets. It may need to include whether some of these facets are reasonably discouraging to repentance.

.

(Maybe Pogi, probably me) It would be sweet if we wound up with some new understanding that sort of defused the whole thing - in a way that was persistently beneficial.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Chum

[CV75]

11 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Wait……what?

The presence of accountability allows for the opposite, and we know there are circumstances for which we are not accountable. But the article I linked, and the quote is only about accountability.  We know there some temporary/temporal things some people are not accountable for, and little children and those without law get a pass as well. But as I note in my response above, if you are looking at all choices from the pre-existence through the spirit world prior to the resurrection, we are in the end accountable because we have all the opportunities, including the benefit of Christ's atonement, before us.

[Smiley McGee]

36 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I wouldn't put it that way; you are missing the "in our behalf / for our sake" piece, which is key. God wants to maintain a positive relationship with us, and to do that, He has shown us how to understand each other's feelings, attitudes, viewpoints, positions, etc. and communicate them with an eye toward the atoning power of His Son. We communicate with through prayer, thoughts, deeds, scripture, the Spirit, prophets, music (I could go on and on), verbally, non-verbally, etc.  I hope this helps.

God is offended “on our behalf?” Is that what you mean?

Edited October 7, 2023 by Smiley McGee

[Meadowchik]

14 hours ago, Teancum said:

I can certainly judge whether or not his words are helpful or useful and clearly they are not. And I would guess ( though I may be wrong) that you have little experience or knowledge in dealing with people that have substance abuse disorders.  If you are interested I recommend you start with the Book In the Realm of the Hungry Ghosts:

It certainly changed my opinion on addiction and the nature of addiction as well as how poorly we treat those with addictions.  President Nelson's comment incorporate one of most worst approaches. As for a prophet, no I don't believe he or anyone is a prophet.  For someone who believes he is you should expect better. Try to take your "use of certain substances is a sin" glasses off for a bit on this one.

As for being a theist, I don't know.  But I am fairly certain that if there is such a being and that being was able to create the universe we dwell in that that being is not concerned much about what we eat and drink and certainly does not support the nonsense President Nelson stated. And keep in mind there are other things a member of the church can do that is not considered a "sin" that can lead to addictive behavior that is detrimental.

Yes and when there are people who are vulnerable or suffering it's more important to care about helping them. Seek to protect them from additional harm rather than defend those doing that harm.

Furthermore I think by this point the church leaders should be concerned and aware about the hazardous social dynamics common in the church. The ingroup/outgroup dynamic does active harm. Members are not immune to the social pressure to stay in even if the church itself doesn't work for everyone.

This creates an obvious, foreseeable problem:

People staying in an unhealthy situation in order to fit in socially. In other words it promotes a state of chronic deprivation or a chronic state of dischord. And this makes people more vulnerable to addiction.

To be fair, I will say that some people feel their church membership meets needs and creates a harmony that helps them avoid addiction.

But that's just it. It works for some and not for others.

I really wish these leaders would step up and better use the knowledge available to them.

[Chum]

56 minutes ago, Nevo said:

I think President Nelson got this one wrong. I'm inclined to give him a pass, though, because he's given so many wonderful conference talks over the past five years, and I don't expect anyone—even a prophet—to bat a thousand all the time.

I'll go one even softer than this. I'm withholding judgment on wrongness. I'll tack a note onto the disharmony and file it away for now.

Future understandings have a habit of reordering things in a way that make it all work.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Chum

[Chum]

59 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Catholicism has a reputation for guilt and shame. I think I missed that because I came to it as an adult and was able to see things more clearly than if I had been a child.

I'll add something to this. I went to a newly opened Catholic gradeschool in the late 1970s. My education was fairly devoid of guilt or shame.  Religion class included lessons of psychological types. It helped us frame human conditions; it didn't inject judgment.

It was a fairly different Catholic education than my brothers had in the 1950s.

Religions, like people, can improve. We need to recognize past mistakes and improvements since then. Forgetting either is a problem.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Chum

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Nevo said:

d I don't expect anyone—even a prophet—to bat a thousand all the time.

My guess is he is still in some pain, you don’t recover that quickly from excruciating back pain even if you aren’t 99 years old.  Chances are he was a bit distracted.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

It may not, because in the long run, when all have an opportunity to be healed, hear the Gospel, make choices as to where they want to live, with whom, in what kind of body, etc., "all are responsible." I think if you are looking at a week in the life of a six-year-old or a week of rainy, hot weather in yours, you are not responsible; if you are looking at choices from the pre-existence through the spirit world prior to the resurrection, you are responsible. That is my view; in the end God judges these matters and our hindsight is perfect.

I have no problem applying the all are responsible to the Spirit world as I believe we will be making fully informed choices eventually then.  My issue is applying it to this life.  I think our responsibility is pretty limited here though to attempt a sane society (attempt only, not much success getting one in my view), we need to see it as more than it likely is, imo.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Calm

[filovirus]

I see a difference between addiction and dependency. I believe we have the choice to work on breaking our addictions. This is part of putting off the natural man. But we do need to get God involved, and many times we need professional help as well.

Dependency is totally different and almost always requires some type of professional help.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Smiley McGee said:

God is offended “on our behalf?” Is that what you mean?

Yes, thank you for the correction. Everything He does is for our sake. 

[CV75]

23 minutes ago, Calm said:

I have no problem applying the all are responsible to the Spirit world as I believe we will be making fully informed choices eventually then.  My issue is applying it to this life.  I think our responsibility is pretty limited here though to attempt a sane society (attempt only, not much success getting one in my view), we need to see it as more than it likely is, imo.

While as you point out, our "sane" world is still telestial, I believe on the whole, we (humankind) do our best with what we've got. My mother told me as a child to let my conscience be my guide, which was reiterated by Jiminy Cricket. This simple thought has led me all my life, and it led to my discovery of Christ's love and joining the Church. The most important application of this sense of right and wrong concerns the treatment of self and others and my sense of responsibility follows.

Both innate senses are also influenced by parents and others in the world around us, and our own fallibility, and while much good is accomplished, on the whole this leads to a general corruption because everyone, everywhere, is fallen: "Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning; and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God. And that wicked one cometh and taketh away light and truth, through disobedience, from the children of men, and because of the tradition of their fathers."

The atonement of Christ of course corrects failures for which we are not responsible, and those for which we are.