Addiction is offensive to God?

[MustardSeed]

Gods grace is bigger than even the prophets can comprehend.  
 

After all we CAN do- He will step in.  But justice also has a significant part in the plan. 
 

I have to remind myself constantly about the Grace part because the justice part was kneeded in so constantly in my developmental years. 

Edited October 7, 2023 by MustardSeed

[Pyreaux]

11 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Gods grace is bigger than even the prophets can comprehend.  
 

After all we CAN do- He will step in.  But justice also has a significant part in the plan. 
 

I have to remind myself constantly about the Grace part because the justice part was kneeded in so constantly in my developmental years. 

Profound. We do often skip over Jonah's fit that Ninevah wasn't destroyed. God's grace can outshine the Prophet's.

[Chum]

21 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

After all we CAN do- He will step in.  But justice also has a significant part in the plan. 
I have to remind myself constantly about the Grace part because the justice part was kneeded in so constantly in my developmental years. 

I think by justice you mean consequences.

I only bring it up because justice is a contrived thing and fairly sucks as a teaching tool. Consequences, on the other hand, can be awesome and incalculably helpful. Especially failure - without which I would know little.

[Teancum]

18 hours ago, CV75 said:

Can you pick out which phrases in your post are strawmen, which are false, and which are ignorant?

None of the above.

[Jehosephat]

6 hours ago, bluebell said:

Ok.  I'm sorry the prophet's language on the topic of addiction has caused you hurt.

Before responding more though, I want to ask, what are you hoping to get out of our conversation?  I've explained to you my perspective and some ways and reasons that it differs from yours, but I'm not looking for you to agree with me.  Are you doing the same or is your purpose in this discussion to convince people that your perspective on this topic is the correct one?

I don't want to reply before knowing what kind of discussion you are aiming for here.   

This wasn’t directed at me, but I’d like to share my reasons for feeling passionate about this topic and sharing my viewpoints.  There is a lot of misinformation within society, our faith community, and from our leadership about addiction (and mental health challenges).  I believe becoming more informed on this topic can change hearts and minds to better support people who are suffering. 
 

Several people in this thread stated that addiction starts with a bad choice (sin). I’d like to refute this idea. 

Here are some facts: In some cases, the addiction pathway begins with a bad choice (sin)(e.g. social experimentation).  In many cases, however, it is a result of people having inadequate resources (brain structures, coping skills, support systems, etc) to cope with distressing life circumstances and chronic stress. In fact, when children experience adverse childhood experiences (ACEs) during critical phases of their development, their prefrontal cortex (the part of the brain the brain responsible for emotional regulation and impulse control (among other things)) becomes underdeveloped, and other brain areas that respond to stressful situations (I.e amygdala, limbic system) become overdeveloped. This leaves a person with greater reactivity to stressful situations with reduced capacity to manage them. As a result people can be 700-1000% more likely to turn to substances or behavioural addictions. Trauma, chronic stress, mental health challenges, genetics, epigenetics can all be at play here. So with these factors at play, is it bad choice or sin when someone seeks relief from distress in the only way they know how? This is why in my last post I said that suffering is what leads to addiction, not bad choices. To learn more about this, see here and here.  

Here are my opinions: When we view it as someone’s fault for falling into addiction, by making bad/sinful choices, it impacts our compassion. We see it as an individual person’s problem, rather than a  community problem. We fail to see the role of the institution (church) and how it could be contributing to the problem. We think that if bad choice got someone into the situation, then good choice has to get them out. We fail to see that agency is a sliding scale, and not all people have the same capacity (agency) to make ‘good’ choices.  The Saviour left the 99 to go after the one. What do we do? All too often, we condemn the one. We tell them they offend God. We don’t let them get baptized into our church. We don’t make them feel accepted and welcome in our community if they don’t meet the ideals we put on a pedestal. Speaking for myself, there are few marginalized or vulnerable people in my ward, because in my opinion, we don’t support them to feel a sense of community and belonging with us. All too often, people feel ‘less than’ and shamed by our zeal to uphold the ideal, while ignoring the human and spiritual needs of the one. 
 

My opinions might be hard for some to hear. I hope you won’t dismiss my whole post because of them. I hope that the factual info I shared about addiction is something we can consider in our mindset and approach towards people suffering in this life. 
 

Thanks kindly. 

 

 

[JAHS]

2 minutes ago, Jehosephat said:

This wasn’t directed at me, but I’d like to share my reasons for feeling passionate about this topic and sharing my viewpoints.  There is a lot of misinformation within society, our faith community, and from our leadership about addiction (and mental health challenges).  I believe becoming more informed on this topic can change hearts and minds to better support people who are suffering. 
 

Several people in this thread stated that addiction starts with a bad choice (sin). I’d like to refute this idea. 

Here are some facts: In some cases, the addiction pathway begins with a bad choice (sin)(e.g. social experimentation).  In many cases, however, it is a result of people having inadequate resources (brain structures, coping skills, support systems, etc) to cope with distressing life circumstances and chronic stress. In fact, when children experience adverse childhood experiences (ACEs) during critical phases of their development, their prefrontal cortex (the part of the brain the brain responsible for emotional regulation and impulse control (among other things)) becomes underdeveloped, and other brain areas that respond to stressful situations (I.e amygdala, limbic system) become overdeveloped. This leaves a person with greater reactivity to stressful situations with reduced capacity to manage them. As a result people can be 700-1000% more likely to turn to substances or behavioural addictions. Trauma, chronic stress, mental health challenges, genetics, epigenetics can all be at play here. So with these factors at play, is it bad choice or sin when someone seeks relief from distress in the only way they know how? This is why in my last post I said that suffering is what leads to addiction, not bad choices. To learn more about this, see here and here.  

Here are my opinions: When we view it as someone’s fault for falling into addiction, by making bad/sinful choices, it impacts our compassion. We see it as an individual person’s problem, rather than a  community problem. We fail to see the role of the institution (church) and how it could be contributing to the problem. We think that if bad choice got someone into the situation, then good choice has to get them out. We fail to see that agency is a sliding scale, and not all people have the same capacity (agency) to make ‘good’ choices.  The Saviour left the 99 to go after the one. What do we do? All too often, we condemn the one. We tell them they offend God. We don’t let them get baptized into our church. We don’t make them feel accepted and welcome in our community if they don’t meet the ideals we put on a pedestal. Speaking for myself, there are few marginalized or vulnerable people in my ward, because in my opinion, we don’t support them to feel a sense of community and belonging with us. All too often, people feel ‘less than’ and shamed by our zeal to uphold the ideal, while ignoring the human and spiritual needs of the one. 
 

My opinions might be hard for some to hear. I hope you won’t dismiss my whole post because of them. I hope that the factual info I shared about addiction is something we can consider in our mindset and approach towards people suffering in this life. 
 

Thanks kindly. 

This is especially true with young people whose brains haven't really completely developed, which doesn't happen until they are around 25. They are sometimes not able to comprehend the harmful consequences of their actions enough to prevent them from doing the harmful things. Harmful experiences they may have during childhood that are out of their control may also contribute.

Teen Brain: Behavior, Problem Solving, and Decision Making

Also alcoholics may have a genetic predisposition for alcoholism but don't know it till they start drinking and it becomes an addiction. 
 

[Amulek]

20 minutes ago, Jehosephat said:

Several people in this thread stated that addiction starts with a bad choice (sin). I’d like to refute this idea. 

So, maybe I'm an alcoholic. I mean, I don't know that I'm not an alcoholic. I've never had a drink before, so (like Shrodinger's cat) I guess we can't say for sure one way or the other.

If I go out to a bar tonight and start drinking - only to discover, regretfully, that I can't stop drinking - then, sure, in some sense it's probably true that my addiction didn't technically 'start with a bad choice (sin)' but in another sense it kind of did.

 

[Jehosephat]

12 minutes ago, Amulek said:

So, maybe I'm an alcoholic. I mean, I don't know that I'm not an alcoholic. I've never had a drink before, so (like Shrodinger's cat) I guess we can't say for sure one way or the other.

If I go out to a bar tonight and start drinking - only to discover, regretfully, that I can't stop drinking - then, sure, in some sense it's probably true that my addiction didn't technically 'start with a bad choice (sin)' but in another sense it kind of did.

 

Hence me saying: 

58 minutes ago, Jehosephat said:

In some cases, the addiction pathway begins with a bad choice (sin)(e.g. social experimentation)

 

[Jehosephat]

20 minutes ago, Amulek said:

So, maybe I'm an alcoholic. I mean, I don't know that I'm not an alcoholic. I've never had a drink before, so (like Shrodinger's cat) I guess we can't say for sure one way or the other.

If I go out to a bar tonight and start drinking - only to discover, regretfully, that I can't stop drinking - then, sure, in some sense it's probably true that my addiction didn't technically 'start with a bad choice (sin)' but in another sense it kind of did.

 

Hence me also saying: 

1 hour ago, Jehosephat said:

 In many cases, however, it is a result of people having inadequate resources (brain structures, coping skills, support systems, etc) to cope with distressing life circumstances and chronic stress. In fact, when children experience adverse childhood experiences (ACEs) during critical phases of their development, their prefrontal cortex (the part of the brain the brain responsible for emotional regulation and impulse control (among other things)) becomes underdeveloped, and other brain areas that respond to stressful situations (I.e amygdala, limbic system) become overdeveloped. This leaves a person with greater reactivity to stressful situations with reduced capacity to manage them. As a result people can be 700-1000% more likely to turn to substances or behavioural addictions. Trauma, chronic stress, mental health challenges, genetics, epigenetics can all be at play here. So with these factors at play, is it bad choice or sin when someone seeks relief from distress in the only way they know how? This is why in my last post I said that suffering is what leads to addiction, not bad choices. To learn more about this, see here and here.  

 

[MustardSeed]

1 minute ago, Jehosephat said:

Hence me also saying: 

 

This is why truly only God can fairly judge.  Why do we waste our time trying out for the job? Maybe we do it to place distance between ourselves and the fate of others. 

[Amulek]

I'm confused. If you admit that it sometimes does work that way, then what exactly were you "refuting?"

 

[Calm]

5 hours ago, filovirus said:

I see a difference between addiction and dependency. I believe we have the choice to work on breaking our addictions. This is part of putting off the natural man. But we do need to get God involved, and many times we need professional help as well.

Dependency is totally different and almost always requires some type of professional help.

You have the words reversed according to clinical use.  I am technically physically dependent and not addicted because I have self control.  Been taking the same dose for about 20 years and I often forget to take it until my body lets me know it needs it.  And prior to the addition of fibromyalgia, I white knuckled getting off of it a couple of times to try new drugs (that didn’t work, so back to to the one that does).  If I was addicted, the drug would be the center of my life and insurance would be willing to pay for me to switch to a better drug, where instead they are “tough, you are doing good enough, you don’t need the help”.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Jehosephat said:

Here are some facts:

Welcome to the board and thank you for putting up this important info.

[Calm]

41 minutes ago, Amulek said:

If I go out to a bar tonight and start drinking - only to discover, regretfully, that I can't stop drinking - then, sure, in some sense it's probably true that my addiction didn't technically 'start with a bad choice (sin)' but in another sense it kind of did.

But you have made a commitment not to drink.  What of those who take their first drink at the family dinner table or those who are taken after work by friends to celebrate a promotion and it’s their first drink because they wisely waited until they thought their brain wouldn’t be impacted significantly, having waited till it was fully developed and they were planning on having only a small drink?  How are either of those a bad choice?

Edited October 7, 2023 by Calm

[Teancum]

20 hours ago, bluebell said:

It's an interesting idea, that you don't know if God exists but you do know that if He does, he agrees with your take on this.  That (an unknown followed up with a statement of fact about the unknown) could be an interesting discussion in a separate thread.

I merely postured an opinion that a being powerful enough to create the universe we live in likely would not be to concerned about what we consume.   But for a being this powerful to be worried  about us eating pork or shellfish or drinking coffee, tea or alcohol on its face just seems ludicrous.  It was not a statement of fact.  I said I was fairly certain that IF such being exists.  I did not say I was certain.  I did not bear and LDS like testimpony and say I know.  I am simply using rational thinking to conclude that such a being would not likely be concerned with such petty little things. I could be wrong.

20 hours ago, bluebell said:

But as to the bold, I was meaning to suggest that asking someone to judge how a prophet could have improved when teaching a concept that the person really disagrees with is kind of like asking a PETA member how the chef could have improved in his cooking of the steak.   The answer is less likely to be relevant to people who eat steak.  The bias is too great.  

It would be like someone asking me how to improve a tomato salad.  The only honest answer I could give is "throw it away".  

Nevertheless I am free to make a suggestion.  I don't believe he is a prophet.  But he is a leader of millions of Latter-day Saints who hang on his words as if he were a prophet and what he says impacts them.  For good or ill.

[Teancum]

19 hours ago, CV75 said:

I think that when we look at addiction not as a sin but as something to be avoided because, while not a sin, still robs us of moral agency and just plain happiness and potential, the actual sins that accompany it (i.e., obsessions-as-gods) are addressed more appropriately, as are the more clinical aspects. 

How does one avoid addiction?  They may avoid certain addictive substances that are addictive both mentally and physically, substances you view as sin.  But I bet the mental health professionals would agree that the underlying problems such persons have would, unless addressed(and many are not aware of these problems until they get help) will show up another way.  Depression, anxiety, obsessive behavior, work, church devotion, strained relationships and so o.

[Teancum]

19 hours ago, JAHS said:

The addiction offends God, but not the person who is addicted. God will always have perfect and complete love for the sinner.

Addicts are not sinners in this aspect. 

[Teancum]

2 hours ago, Jehosephat said:

This wasn’t directed at me, but I’d like to share my reasons for feeling passionate about this topic and sharing my viewpoints.  There is a lot of misinformation within society, our faith community, and from our leadership about addiction (and mental health challenges).  I believe becoming more informed on this topic can change hearts and minds to better support people who are suffering. 
 

Several people in this thread stated that addiction starts with a bad choice (sin). I’d like to refute this idea. 

Here are some facts: In some cases, the addiction pathway begins with a bad choice (sin)(e.g. social experimentation).  In many cases, however, it is a result of people having inadequate resources (brain structures, coping skills, support systems, etc) to cope with distressing life circumstances and chronic stress. In fact, when children experience adverse childhood experiences (ACEs) during critical phases of their development, their prefrontal cortex (the part of the brain the brain responsible for emotional regulation and impulse control (among other things)) becomes underdeveloped, and other brain areas that respond to stressful situations (I.e amygdala, limbic system) become overdeveloped. This leaves a person with greater reactivity to stressful situations with reduced capacity to manage them. As a result people can be 700-1000% more likely to turn to substances or behavioural addictions. Trauma, chronic stress, mental health challenges, genetics, epigenetics can all be at play here. So with these factors at play, is it bad choice or sin when someone seeks relief from distress in the only way they know how? This is why in my last post I said that suffering is what leads to addiction, not bad choices. To learn more about this, see here and here.  

Here are my opinions: When we view it as someone’s fault for falling into addiction, by making bad/sinful choices, it impacts our compassion. We see it as an individual person’s problem, rather than a  community problem. We fail to see the role of the institution (church) and how it could be contributing to the problem. We think that if bad choice got someone into the situation, then good choice has to get them out. We fail to see that agency is a sliding scale, and not all people have the same capacity (agency) to make ‘good’ choices.  The Saviour left the 99 to go after the one. What do we do? All too often, we condemn the one. We tell them they offend God. We don’t let them get baptized into our church. We don’t make them feel accepted and welcome in our community if they don’t meet the ideals we put on a pedestal. Speaking for myself, there are few marginalized or vulnerable people in my ward, because in my opinion, we don’t support them to feel a sense of community and belonging with us. All too often, people feel ‘less than’ and shamed by our zeal to uphold the ideal, while ignoring the human and spiritual needs of the one. 
 

My opinions might be hard for some to hear. I hope you won’t dismiss my whole post because of them. I hope that the factual info I shared about addiction is something we can consider in our mindset and approach towards people suffering in this life. 
 

Thanks kindly. 

 

 

I appreciate your comments.  Thank you.

[MustardSeed]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

But you have made a commitment not to drink.  What of those who take their first drink at the family dinner table or those who are taken after work by friends to celebrate a promotion and it’s their first drink because they wisely waited until they thought their brain wouldn’t be impacted significantly, having waited till it was fully developed and they were planning on having only a small drink?  How are either of those a bad choice?

Or taking a pain med post injury? 

[Calm]

25 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Or taking a pain med post injury? 

Especially if they did so when drugs were promoted as wonder drugs with addictive tendencies suppressed by the pharmacy companies making so much money off of them.  And still are.  Johnson and Johnson are paying $5 billion in settlements, but took in $95 billion in sales in 2022.

And opioids are becoming known for increasing pain long term.  I think my pain specialist doctor kind of hates them because of that, though he recognizes they are the only option in some cases…but far fewer than they are used.  The prevalence of opioid-induced hyperalgesia is currently unknown, they need robust studies on this.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9604911/

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/as-opioid-settlement-money-starts-to-flow-in-states-debate-how-best-to-use-it

 

Edited October 8, 2023 by Calm

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

How does one avoid addiction?  They may avoid certain addictive substances that are addictive both mentally and physically, substances you view as sin.  But I bet the mental health professionals would agree that the underlying problems such persons have would, unless addressed(and many are not aware of these problems until they get help) will show up another way.  Depression, anxiety, obsessive behavior, work, church devotion, strained relationships and so o.

One avoids addiction by getting help sooner than later to nip underlying or culminated problems and issues in the bud. There is a scriptural term, "quick to observe" which is a very helpful talent or gift. Not everyone has it or uses it. So, no time is too late, but earlier in and even before the addiction takes hold is better. People who don't hear this counsel or figure it out for themselves might have someone in their lives to intervene sooner than later, and like I said, it's never too late to start. Proceed with your next question about exceptions to this.

[Jehosephat]

2 hours ago, Amulek said:

I'm confused. If you admit that it sometimes does work that way, then what exactly were you "refuting?"

 

I think we tend to generalize the idea that all addiction starts with making a bad choice. I refute this. I acknowledge that this can be true in some cases, but that in many cases (the majority in my opinion) it starts with inadequate brain capacity and coping skills in the face of distress and chronic stress. 

[Jehosephat]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Welcome to the board and thank you for putting up this important info.

Thank you Calm! I really appreciate people in this forum and the diversity of opinion. 

[Smiley McGee]

23 hours ago, bluebell said:

It's an interesting idea, that you don't know if God exists but you do know that if He does, he agrees with your take on this.

😊 could be said of anyone who asserts anything about God. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Jehosephat said:

Thank you Calm! I really appreciate people in this forum and the diversity of opinion. 

Same here.  I have greatly benefitted over the years from being able to interact in ways that would never occur elsewhere.