7 Reasons Why Mormonism and Christianity Are Not the Same

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

Sure there is. THere is a baptism that us by the priesthood authority of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This is what I meant. But my guess is you knew that.

Did the fact that I said right in the post that I knew what you meant tip you off?   

Edited June 9, 2023 by bluebell

[Stormin' Mormon]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

Sure there is. THere is a baptism that us by the priesthood authority of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This is what I meant. But my guess is you knew that.

This puts the cart before the horse.  It's NOT the authority of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  It is God's authority, which happens to be administered (in this time and place) by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  Millions of people will be saved without ever having received an LDS-branded baptism--residents of the City of Enoch, those baptized under prophetic authority during the Mosaic dispensation, the tens of thousands baptized in the days of Peter and Paul, just to name a few.  

From the perspective of a believing Latter-day Saint, the institution administering the baptism is rather irrelevant.  What counts is the authority behind the baptism, and throughout history, that authority has been administered by a number of different institutions. Other Christians may see little difference between an LDS-branded baptism and a baptism performed with authority that has been delegated to the LDS Church for the time being.  But from our viewpoint, there is a world of difference between the two ideas.

The authority that cleanses, sanctifies, and exalts us in the eternities will not be the authority of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The door to celestial glory is in Christ Jesus, and can be found in no other name or power.   

Edited June 9, 2023 by Stormin' Mormon

[bluebell]

12 minutes ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

This puts the cart before the horse.  It's NOT the authority of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  It is God's authority, which happens to be administered (in this time and place) by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  Millions of people will be saved without ever having received an LDS-branded baptism--residents of the City of Enoch, those baptized under prophetic authority during the Mosaic dispensation, the tens of thousands baptized in the days of Peter and Paul, just to name a few.  

From the perspective of a believing Latter-day Saint, the institution administering the baptism is rather irrelevant.  What counts is the authority behind the baptism, and throughout history, that authority has been administered by a number of different institutions. Other Christians may see little difference between an LDS-branded baptism and a baptism performed with authority that has been delegated to the LDS Church for the time being.  But from our viewpoint, there is a world of difference between the two ideas.

The authority that cleanses, sanctifies, and exalts us in the eternities will not be the authority of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The door to celestial glory is in Christ Jesus, and can be found in no other name or power.   

Perfectly said. 

[Calm]

13 hours ago, Buckwheat said:

I watch a video few months back about a couple from Finland or maybe Switzerland and they claim they have been accepted into the highest kingdom of heaven already so I think some of us mormons have already proven to HF we are ready for CK. Can't remember the name of the ordinance or maybe it was a ceremony but I'm pretty sure they were guaranteed a spot in the CK. If true does that make them gods already I don't know I'm new at this.

That is assurance they are going to end up there, not that they are ready…unless Joseph Smith was very, very wrong.  No one is capable of dying, learning nothing more, repenting no more and walking as is spiritually into the Celestial Kingdom.  At the very least, we cannot repent until we recognize our sins and errors and I have almost 100% certainty that no mortal has ever been aware of all their mistakes that have harmed others, put distance between them and the Lord.  Improved self awareness is one of the steps between death and the CK, I bet.

Quote

Wilford Woodruff summarized one of Brigham Young's addresses in his journal which is cited in History of the Church (Vol. 5 p. 527):

He also remarked that if any in the Church had the fullness of the Melchisedec Priesthood, he did not know it. For any person to have the fullness of that priesthood, he must be a king and priest. A person may have a portion of that priesthood, the same as governors or judges of England have power from the king to transact business; but that does not make them kings of England. A person may be anointed king and priest long before he receives his kingdom.

My bold.

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Question:_What_is_the_"second_anointing"%3F

A lot of people equate eligibility with belonging when they are not the same.

According to Joseph Smith it will take a long time after death to comprehend all the principles of exaltation.  How can we truly accept and live something we don’t comprehend?

How is that going to work with those who come forth in the first resurrection?  Don’t have a clue, but am guessing time actually doesn’t work in such a linear way as it appears it does to us.

Another option is the Spirit World and the Kingdoms are really all one in terms of location… (we are taught after all the Spirit world exists round us) and we are in the same place at the beginning as we are at the end, the difference is our awareness expands so we become more and more aware…like a big dark space where lights are slowly raised to bright enough to see everything in perfect detail.  Those who are exalted eventually comprehend the darkness as well as Christ through the Atonement, so in essence they are living in the CK, it just takes time for them to see it around them….whatever “it” is.

BTW, if someone has made a video about the Second Anointing, I have my doubts they actually understood what was happening to them unfortunately. 

Quote

When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel--you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave. 

HC 6:306-307

 

Edited June 10, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Teancum said:

Well mostly by various LDS persons on various discussion boards and FB groups. I don't agree with them.  But if I recall an old poster who went by BCspace held this opinion for LDS apostates.

Oh yes.  I disagree with several things that BCSpace produced, but I loved his penguin avatar (if I am remembering correctly as it isn’t his current one)…which is odd because I am not much into slapstick humor.

[pogi]

21 minutes ago, Calm said:

BTW, if someone has made a video about the Second Anointing, I have my doubts they actually understood what was happening to them unfortunately. 

I wonder if he is talking about the Mormon Stories video interview of the Mattsson’s.  There is also the Tom Phillips interview.  I think those are very credible sources and corroborate each others description of events in the second anointing. 

[Calm]

49 minutes ago, pogi said:

I wonder if he is talking about the Mormon Stories video interview of the Mattsson’s.  There is also the Tom Phillips interview.  I think those are very credible sources and corroborate each others description of events in the second anointing. 

There is what is done and there is what it means.  To be blunt, I am more interested in what God intends the Second Anointing to mean in our lives than in how the Mattsons and Phillips understand their experience. 
 

From everything I have studied, it is not the Celestial equivalent of a get out of jail free card.  

Edited June 10, 2023 by Calm

[InCognitus]

I was reminded of this thread when reviewing this week's Come Follow Me lesson for individuals and families, particularly of this quote:

Quote

John 17:11, 21–23

Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ are perfectly united.

In His prayer in John 17, Jesus emphasized His unity with the Father. In what ways are the Father and the Son “one”? (John 17:11, 21–23). Note that the Savior prayed that His disciples may be one “even as”—or in the same way that—He and His Father are one (John 17:22). What does that mean for you? Think about your relationships—for example, with your spouse or other family members, with ward members, and with fellow Christians. How can you work toward the kind of unity that Jesus has with the Father?

(Emphasis mine).

We are to strive to be united in Christ and fulfill the will of the Father, to become a Zion people, and this also helps explain why the Book of Mormon indicates that all who fight against Zion are building up the church of the devil.

[Sara H]

On 6/8/2023 at 8:57 PM, manol said:

If you are comfortable elaborating, I'm interested in hearing about it

I guess that when I say "spiritual awakening," what I'm referring to is a complete shift in perspective regarding the manner in which the brethren direct what I do with my life.I had no trouble getting into the Celestial kingdom as long as I followed everything they preached from the pulpit up until this point because I knew deep down in my heart that if I listened to them, I would not have any problems getting there. That is no longer something I believe. It's as if a veil were pulled back from my eyes, and now I have an entirely new perspective on both the world and religion. 

 

Because of the emotional upheaval I've been going through, the past several months have presented me with challenges that have been fairly difficult to surmount. I would say that in the past three months I have developed and learned more than I have in the previous half century combined, but that's only because I've matured so much in the past few months. What I believe to be the most important thing that I have picked up over the past several months is that the LDS religion is designed to lure people into accepting its doctrines so that they can spend the rest of their lives in a state of covert narcissism until they die. I believe that I have finally come to see the teachings of the LDS church as a highly deceptive and sneaky technique to appeal to one's pride and arrogance. Consider the implications of the statement before passing judgement. Once an individual has fully accepted the doctrines of the LDS church, they are propelled to the pinnacle of spiritual awareness, the highest of highs. A believer in the Latter Day Saints church is more knowledgeable than anyone else on the planet regarding the purpose of our existence. The entire message of the gospel is organised in a way that gives you the impression that you are a spiritual colossus. And all of this is done so that after the teachings have been put to use in a person's life, there is really no good reason to doubt the teachings. This is because doubting the teachings and not living the teachings anymore would mean dropping back to a lower status, and by nature, humans do not prefer to return to a former or less developed state. 

 

Joseph was, in my opinion, a highly clever individual. And when he established this religion, he realised that it would be very enticing to people who wanted to know why we are here and why we are living in such anguish and pain for the most of our lives. The teachings of the LDS church provide an escape from the realities of the world and make grand promises about an eternity that includes the creation of planets and maybe universes as well as the birth of billions of children for all time. When you stop and give it some thought, Joseph was not only giving them a new identity, but he was also giving them a reason to fight for what they believed in. Someone who isn't sure what the point of living is or thinks as though they've exhausted all their options in life may find this to be an extremely enticing option. 

Through research into the doctrines of many faiths, I acquired all of this knowledge. Joseph was not the only person who had the realisation that it would be a good idea to begin a religion that appeals to the vanity and arrogance of individuals. Now, please don't misunderstand what I'm saying, and thank you in advance. Joseph Smith knew how to appeal to people's pride and arrogance in order to get them to at least listen to what he was selling at the time. I'm not claiming that all members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are blatantly proud and arrogant; in fact, that's probably the furthest thing from the truth.

There are a lot of movements going on in the world right now, and many of them are employing the same psychological ploys in order to give people a sense of identity. In addition, these organisations promise their followers a better life as long as they remain faithful to the movement. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Navidad]

19 hours ago, InCognitus said:

I was reminded of this thread when reviewing this week's Come Follow Me lesson for individuals and families, particularly of this quote:

(Emphasis mine).

We are to strive to be united in Christ and fulfill the will of the Father, to become a Zion people, and this also helps explain why the Book of Mormon indicates that all who fight against Zion are building up the church of the devil.

I think I could really enjoy being as one with my LDS friends. If only I didn't have to become one, to be at one with them. As a fellow Christian I believe we have much in common to be as one about. Methinks however those living in the Celestial Kingdom will not be as one with those living in the Terrestial or Telestial kingdom.  - In the same way, those who live outside of the membership rolls cannot be at one with those who are members. By in large, those on the rolls don't see that oneness with those off it. Certainly, there are also those off the rolls who don't wish to be one with those on them either. I find both at fault with the lack of oneness in Christianity. It seems our role (different word) in the sub-groups of Christianity is more important to us than the unity of the whole. I don't think doctrine should be allowed to create and sustain class distinctions within the body of Christ.

Edited June 11, 2023 by Navidad

[MustardSeed]

4 hours ago, Sara H said:

I guess that when I say "spiritual awakening," what I'm referring to is a complete shift in perspective regarding the manner in which the brethren direct what I do with my life.I had no trouble getting into the Celestial kingdom as long as I followed everything they preached from the pulpit up until this point because I knew deep down in my heart that if I listened to them, I would not have any problems getting there. That is no longer something I believe. It's as if a veil were pulled back from my eyes, and now I have an entirely new perspective on both the world and religion. 

 

Because of the emotional upheaval I've been going through, the past several months have presented me with challenges that have been fairly difficult to surmount. I would say that in the past three months I have developed and learned more than I have in the previous half century combined, but that's only because I've matured so much in the past few months. What I believe to be the most important thing that I have picked up over the past several months is that the LDS religion is designed to lure people into accepting its doctrines so that they can spend the rest of their lives in a state of covert narcissism until they die. I believe that I have finally come to see the teachings of the LDS church as a highly deceptive and sneaky technique to appeal to one's pride and arrogance. Consider the implications of the statement before passing judgement. Once an individual has fully accepted the doctrines of the LDS church, they are propelled to the pinnacle of spiritual awareness, the highest of highs. A believer in the Latter Day Saints church is more knowledgeable than anyone else on the planet regarding the purpose of our existence. The entire message of the gospel is organised in a way that gives you the impression that you are a spiritual colossus. And all of this is done so that after the teachings have been put to use in a person's life, there is really no good reason to doubt the teachings. This is because doubting the teachings and not living the teachings anymore would mean dropping back to a lower status, and by nature, humans do not prefer to return to a former or less developed state. 

 

Joseph was, in my opinion, a highly clever individual. And when he established this religion, he realised that it would be very enticing to people who wanted to know why we are here and why we are living in such anguish and pain for the most of our lives. The teachings of the LDS church provide an escape from the realities of the world and make grand promises about an eternity that includes the creation of planets and maybe universes as well as the birth of billions of children for all time. When you stop and give it some thought, Joseph was not only giving them a new identity, but he was also giving them a reason to fight for what they believed in. Someone who isn't sure what the point of living is or thinks as though they've exhausted all their options in life may find this to be an extremely enticing option. 

Through research into the doctrines of many faiths, I acquired all of this knowledge. Joseph was not the only person who had the realisation that it would be a good idea to begin a religion that appeals to the vanity and arrogance of individuals. Now, please don't misunderstand what I'm saying, and thank you in advance. Joseph Smith knew how to appeal to people's pride and arrogance in order to get them to at least listen to what he was selling at the time. I'm not claiming that all members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are blatantly proud and arrogant; in fact, that's probably the furthest thing from the truth.

There are a lot of movements going on in the world right now, and many of them are employing the same psychological ploys in order to give people a sense of identity. In addition, these organisations promise their followers a better life as long as they remain faithful to the movement. 

 

 

 

 

 

Interesting!  Thank you for taking time and sharing your journey with us.  You’ll get argument because that’s what we do but I’m sure your conclusions are hard won.  I appreciate the statement at the end that we are not all prideful per se.  I can see where you’re coming from. 

[JLHPROF]

4 hours ago, Navidad said:

I think I could really enjoy being as one with my LDS friends. If only I didn't have to become one, to be at one with them. As a fellow Christian I believe we have much in common to be as one about. Methinks however those living in the Celestial Kingdom will not be as one with those living in the Terrestial or Telestial kingdom.  - In the same way, those who live outside of the membership rolls cannot be at one with those who are members. By in large, those on the rolls don't see that oneness with those off it. Certainly, there are also those off the rolls who don't wish to be one with those on them either. I find both at fault with the lack of oneness in Christianity. It seems our role (different word) in the sub-groups of Christianity is more important to us than the unity of the whole. I don't think doctrine should be allowed to create and sustain class distinctions within the body of Christ.

We can all be Christians together.  We have Christ in common.

To me it's less about our differences of belief about Christ's nature and more about what Christ expects his followers to do to return to his Father in Heaven.

We can be one in our acceptance of Christ as Lord and Savior.  That is what unites us.  What we do after accepting Christ is the difference.

[pogi]

6 hours ago, Navidad said:

I think I could really enjoy being as one with my LDS friends. If only I didn't have to become one, to be at one with them. As a fellow Christian I believe we have much in common to be as one about. Methinks however those living in the Celestial Kingdom will not be as one with those living in the Terrestial or Telestial kingdom.  - In the same way, those who live outside of the membership rolls cannot be at one with those who are members. By and large, those on the rolls don't see that oneness with those of it. Certainly, there are also those off the rolls who don't wish to be one with those on them either. I find both at fault with the lack of oneness in Christianity. It seems our role (different word) in the sub-groups of Christianity is more important to us than the unity of the whole. I don't think doctrine should be allowed to create and sustain class distinctions within the body of Christ.

What do you mean by “oneness” and “unity of the whole”?  In what way?  How do you perceive such oneness and unity throughout Christianity happening while maintaining our doctrines and beliefs that cause distinction and division in views of salvation etc.?   Aren’t you asking people to abandon their doctrines and beliefs that might prohibit perfect balanced unity with the larger Christian community in order to assimilate into the vision of Christianity that you have?  It is almost as if you are asking us to abandon our beliefs so that we can be one with you.  It seems to be exactly the same thing you take issue with us trying to do in converting others in order to build unity.

If I am way off in my perception of your vision of unity, help me understand what you mean.  How could it be possible given our doctrines of priesthood authority, etc?  Wouldn’t the unity you envision require us abandoning our priesthood doctrines and an opting your priesthood of the believer doctrine?    

Edited June 11, 2023 by pogi

[CV75]

5 hours ago, Navidad said:

I think I could really enjoy being as one with my LDS friends. If only I didn't have to become one, to be at one with them. As a fellow Christian I believe we have much in common to be as one about. Methinks however those living in the Celestial Kingdom will not be as one with those living in the Terrestial or Telestial kingdom.  - In the same way, those who live outside of the membership rolls cannot be at one with those who are members. By in large, those on the rolls don't see that oneness with those off it. Certainly, there are also those off the rolls who don't wish to be one with those on them either. I find both at fault with the lack of oneness in Christianity. It seems our role (different word) in the sub-groups of Christianity is more important to us than the unity of the whole. I don't think doctrine should be allowed to create and sustain class distinctions within the body of Christ.

I think, because Christian subgroups and nonconformists alike are the result of personal preference and choice, the body of Christ, the vehicle for expressing the Lord's sentiments in John 17, is a matter of discipleship, submitting our wills to His. Given the principle of grace, Christ will help everyone of good faith to attain the fulness of His offerings. I think this harmonization, as a gift from Him and as a capacity and an aim within ourselves, occurs by steps and degrees, "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. "(Ephesians 4: 13 – 16).                                                                                                          

[Sara H]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

We can all be Christians together.  We have Christ in common.

To me it's less about our differences of belief about Christ's nature and more about what Christ expects his followers to do to return to his Father in Heaven.

We can be one in our acceptance of Christ as Lord and Savior.  That is what unites us.  What we do after accepting Christ is the difference.

Is it not true that the gospel according to the LDS church was restored in order to proclaim the distinctions and demonstrate to other Christian religions that the gospel they follow is an apostate gospel that has eliminated many simple and plain truths? Do you not believe that God would have permitted at least a few Christian denominations to exercise priesthood power and authority if he had approved of their teachings and the doctrines that they taught? It seems as though you're trying to have your cake and eat it too, but I don't believe you can accomplish that, at least not in a peaceful way. If we go around proclaiming that we are the only Christians in the world who have the priestly power and authority that God has given us, then we are never going to be fully accepted because that is not how the world operates. 

 

  A few nights ago, my husband and I were discussing this topic, and he brought up a very valid point in our conversation. Let's pretend that one representative from 12 different Christian denominations is going to meet together at a restaurant to talk about the power and authority of the Gods  priesthood. How would the representative of the LDS church explain to the other 11 Christians that until they accept the LDS gospel, none of them are qualified to exercise the authority that comes with becoming a representative in God's church? That wouldn't just be his individual LDS viewpoint; rather, it would be something that is taught by the church in every single teaching. That a Christian who is not a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS) will never be good enough, knowledgeable enough, or worthy enough to possess God's heavenly priesthood, regardless of how much he or she devotes their life to following Christ. Isn't that what we teach in our church? And if it is our doctrine, can you not see why Christians who follow a version of Christianity that we regard to be apostate would be a little unhappy if they wanted to embrace us as "equals" when as soon as we step in the room our teaching declares that we're the only doctrine that is genuine and complete? 

Because of our insistence on being the only Christians to have God's priestly power and authority, we will always be able to tell ourselves apart from the family of Christian religions that are able to coexist peacefully without declaring any one of them to be the one and only true church. Not only do we keep a healthy distance from other Christians, but we also refuse to acknowledge the legitimacy of any other LDS movements. Do you believe there is another Christian faith that possesses and utilises God's heavenly priesthood? How about a different offshoot of the LDS church? 

 

   

 

[Calm]

7 hours ago, Sara H said:

Through research into the doctrines of many faiths, I acquired all of this knowledge. Joseph was not the only person who had the realisation that it would be a good idea to begin a religion that appeals to the vanity and arrogance of individuals. Now, please don't misunderstand what I'm saying, and thank you in advance. Joseph Smith knew how to appeal to people's pride and arrogance in order to get them to at least listen to what he was selling at the time. I'm not claiming that all members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are blatantly proud and arrogant; in fact, that's probably the furthest thing from the truth.

So what is your faith position now?  Are you still a Christian, have you dropped religions in general for something else that fulfills you?

It is confusing because you use “we” when talking about the Church, but the above suggests you are no longer a believer in its unique claims, anything that claims to provide knowledge that other faiths don’t have.

Edited June 11, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

33 minutes ago, Sara H said:

Do you not believe that God would have permitted at least a few Christian denominations to exercise priesthood power and authority if he had approved of their teachings and the doctrines that they taught?

It makes sense to me that given the essential blessings of everyday life are available through faith and obedience to the two greatest commandments of love God and love your neighbour without the priesthood and that proxy temple work is effective for acquiring necessary salvific ordinances that are needed to be performed in a physical manner, that God might limit certain ordinances to one organization to avoid confusion since God is a God of Order.

The Eucharist/Sacrament is a good example of how multiple organizations end up understanding an ordinance in substantially different ways.  I think multiple views could have a benefit of providing a variety of insights that may lead one to a closer understanding of God’s principles, which may be why God has allowed the vast majority of people to live within a variety of faiths when taken as a whole.  If we end up sharing our experiences as we become more one in the next life, where we will find it easier I suspect to sieve out the untruths from the truths in all our faiths, the sum of our gospel knowledge may lead us more effectively to the greater whole of God’s pure knowledge.

However, if there are aspects that must performed with exactitude, multiple views—which are likely to lead to changes—are problematic.  By limiting certain ordinances’ performance to one group, there are less influences to resist to prevent unwanted changes while course corrections are easier to implement as well where needed.

[manol]

8 hours ago, Sara H said:

I guess that when I say "spiritual awakening," what I'm referring to is a complete shift in perspective regarding the manner in which the brethren direct what I do with my life.I had no trouble getting into the Celestial kingdom as long as I followed everything they preached from the pulpit up until this point because I knew deep down in my heart that if I listened to them, I would not have any problems getting there. That is no longer something I believe. It's as if a veil were pulled back from my eyes, and now I have an entirely new perspective on both the world and religion. 

 

Because of the emotional upheaval I've been going through, the past several months have presented me with challenges that have been fairly difficult to surmount. I would say that in the past three months I have developed and learned more than I have in the previous half century combined, but that's only because I've matured so much in the past few months. What I believe to be the most important thing that I have picked up over the past several months is that the LDS religion is designed to lure people into accepting its doctrines so that they can spend the rest of their lives in a state of covert narcissism until they die. I believe that I have finally come to see the teachings of the LDS church as a highly deceptive and sneaky technique to appeal to one's pride and arrogance. Consider the implications of the statement before passing judgement. Once an individual has fully accepted the doctrines of the LDS church, they are propelled to the pinnacle of spiritual awareness, the highest of highs. A believer in the Latter Day Saints church is more knowledgeable than anyone else on the planet regarding the purpose of our existence. The entire message of the gospel is organised in a way that gives you the impression that you are a spiritual colossus. And all of this is done so that after the teachings have been put to use in a person's life, there is really no good reason to doubt the teachings. This is because doubting the teachings and not living the teachings anymore would mean dropping back to a lower status, and by nature, humans do not prefer to return to a former or less developed state. 

 

Joseph was, in my opinion, a highly clever individual. And when he established this religion, he realised that it would be very enticing to people who wanted to know why we are here and why we are living in such anguish and pain for the most of our lives. The teachings of the LDS church provide an escape from the realities of the world and make grand promises about an eternity that includes the creation of planets and maybe universes as well as the birth of billions of children for all time. When you stop and give it some thought, Joseph was not only giving them a new identity, but he was also giving them a reason to fight for what they believed in. Someone who isn't sure what the point of living is or thinks as though they've exhausted all their options in life may find this to be an extremely enticing option. 

Through research into the doctrines of many faiths, I acquired all of this knowledge. Joseph was not the only person who had the realisation that it would be a good idea to begin a religion that appeals to the vanity and arrogance of individuals. Now, please don't misunderstand what I'm saying, and thank you in advance. Joseph Smith knew how to appeal to people's pride and arrogance in order to get them to at least listen to what he was selling at the time. I'm not claiming that all members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are blatantly proud and arrogant; in fact, that's probably the furthest thing from the truth.

There are a lot of movements going on in the world right now, and many of them are employing the same psychological ploys in order to give people a sense of identity. In addition, these organisations promise their followers a better life as long as they remain faithful to the movement.

Thank you for responding in such detail.  A seismic shifting of one's paradigms can be, and usually is, quite rough.  My $.02 would be, keep going in whichever direction looks or feels like the highest truth and greatest light YOU know of. 

At this time what do you believe, or believe in, if you don't mind? 

[Calm]

Quote

the family of Christian religions that are able to coexist peacefully without declaring any one of them to be the one and only true church. 

This seems to ignore history, unless you are talking about a small percentage of Christian faith groups, but maybe I am misunderstanding your point.

Edited June 11, 2023 by Calm

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Sara H said:

Is it not true that the gospel according to the LDS church was restored in order to proclaim the distinctions and demonstrate to other Christian religions that the gospel they follow is an apostate gospel that has eliminated many simple and plain truths? Do you not believe that God would have permitted at least a few Christian denominations to exercise priesthood power and authority if he had approved of their teachings and the doctrines that they taught? It seems as though you're trying to have your cake and eat it too, but I don't believe you can accomplish that, at least not in a peaceful way. If we go around proclaiming that we are the only Christians in the world who have the priestly power and authority that God has given us, then we are never going to be fully accepted because that is not how the world operates. 

 

  A few nights ago, my husband and I were discussing this topic, and he brought up a very valid point in our conversation. Let's pretend that one representative from 12 different Christian denominations is going to meet together at a restaurant to talk about the power and authority of the Gods  priesthood. How would the representative of the LDS church explain to the other 11 Christians that until they accept the LDS gospel, none of them are qualified to exercise the authority that comes with becoming a representative in God's church? That wouldn't just be his individual LDS viewpoint; rather, it would be something that is taught by the church in every single teaching. That a Christian who is not a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS) will never be good enough, knowledgeable enough, or worthy enough to possess God's heavenly priesthood, regardless of how much he or she devotes their life to following Christ. Isn't that what we teach in our church? And if it is our doctrine, can you not see why Christians who follow a version of Christianity that we regard to be apostate would be a little unhappy if they wanted to embrace us as "equals" when as soon as we step in the room our teaching declares that we're the only doctrine that is genuine and complete? 

Because of our insistence on being the only Christians to have God's priestly power and authority, we will always be able to tell ourselves apart from the family of Christian religions that are able to coexist peacefully without declaring any one of them to be the one and only true church. Not only do we keep a healthy distance from other Christians, but we also refuse to acknowledge the legitimacy of any other LDS movements. Do you believe there is another Christian faith that possesses and utilises God's heavenly priesthood? How about a different offshoot of the LDS church? 

 

   

 

A couple of observations: The loss of priesthood power and authority within the Church occurred irrespective of whatever teachings, correct or not, remained among the saints, and its restoration was to solve the problem of the lost validity of covenants and ordinances irrespective of the good intentions of the saints. General apostasy is not only willful rebellion (the interference from the great and abominable church), but a natural consequence of time without apostles. This is one way the kingdom of God is not of this world and operates differently.

I don’t think a Church representative would explain the power and authority of God’s priesthood to anyone as a berating ultimatum as you suggested. This is not what we teach, and ecumenical gatherings focus on a common agenda. Interactions that involve insistence and refusal are appropriate only when good faith is abused by attempts at coercion, which I don’t see happening in such a gathering or when believers are listening to understand each other and exercising charity.

[CV75]

9 hours ago, Sara H said:

I guess that when I say "spiritual awakening," what I'm referring to is a complete shift in perspective regarding the manner in which the brethren direct what I do with my life.I had no trouble getting into the Celestial kingdom as long as I followed everything they preached from the pulpit up until this point because I knew deep down in my heart that if I listened to them, I would not have any problems getting there. That is no longer something I believe. It's as if a veil were pulled back from my eyes, and now I have an entirely new perspective on both the world and religion. 

 

Because of the emotional upheaval I've been going through, the past several months have presented me with challenges that have been fairly difficult to surmount. I would say that in the past three months I have developed and learned more than I have in the previous half century combined, but that's only because I've matured so much in the past few months. What I believe to be the most important thing that I have picked up over the past several months is that the LDS religion is designed to lure people into accepting its doctrines so that they can spend the rest of their lives in a state of covert narcissism until they die. I believe that I have finally come to see the teachings of the LDS church as a highly deceptive and sneaky technique to appeal to one's pride and arrogance. Consider the implications of the statement before passing judgement. Once an individual has fully accepted the doctrines of the LDS church, they are propelled to the pinnacle of spiritual awareness, the highest of highs. A believer in the Latter Day Saints church is more knowledgeable than anyone else on the planet regarding the purpose of our existence. The entire message of the gospel is organised in a way that gives you the impression that you are a spiritual colossus. And all of this is done so that after the teachings have been put to use in a person's life, there is really no good reason to doubt the teachings. This is because doubting the teachings and not living the teachings anymore would mean dropping back to a lower status, and by nature, humans do not prefer to return to a former or less developed state. 

 

Joseph was, in my opinion, a highly clever individual. And when he established this religion, he realised that it would be very enticing to people who wanted to know why we are here and why we are living in such anguish and pain for the most of our lives. The teachings of the LDS church provide an escape from the realities of the world and make grand promises about an eternity that includes the creation of planets and maybe universes as well as the birth of billions of children for all time. When you stop and give it some thought, Joseph was not only giving them a new identity, but he was also giving them a reason to fight for what they believed in. Someone who isn't sure what the point of living is or thinks as though they've exhausted all their options in life may find this to be an extremely enticing option. 

Through research into the doctrines of many faiths, I acquired all of this knowledge. Joseph was not the only person who had the realisation that it would be a good idea to begin a religion that appeals to the vanity and arrogance of individuals. Now, please don't misunderstand what I'm saying, and thank you in advance. Joseph Smith knew how to appeal to people's pride and arrogance in order to get them to at least listen to what he was selling at the time. I'm not claiming that all members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are blatantly proud and arrogant; in fact, that's probably the furthest thing from the truth.

There are a lot of movements going on in the world right now, and many of them are employing the same psychological ploys in order to give people a sense of identity. In addition, these organisations promise their followers a better life as long as they remain faithful to the movement. 

 

 

 

 

 

Do you have a link to a website that guides people though this dialectic (it sounds familiar). According to the Book of Mormon, our natural state or human nature is admittedly carnal, sensual and devilish… and subject to pathology... but that does not mean the Church message only elicits a warped or hypocritical application: every converted person also has the light of Christ and other supports to counter these natural tendencies. For example, do you know any Church member who you feel is also sincerely meek, humble, charitable, etc.?

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

So what is your faith position now?  Are you still a Christian, have you dropped religions in general for something else that fulfills you?

It is confusing because you use “we” when talking about the Church, but the above suggests you are no longer a believer in its unique claims, anything that claims to provide knowledge that other faiths don’t have.

I'm not answering for Sara H, but I often say "we" because I'm still a member on record so she may be as well. Also, for me the COJCOLDS ruined me as far as joining any other religion.

Edited June 11, 2023 by Tacenda

[Calm]

34 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I'm not answering for Sara H, but I often say "we" because I'm still a member on record so she may be as well. Also, for me the COJCOLDS ruined me as far as joining any other religion.

And I don’t mind if she wants to say “we” for that or other reasons, I just don’t want to misunderstand her when she says it, so asking for clarification. 

Edited June 11, 2023 by Calm

[Damien the Leper]

I'd like to see a dialogue begin with the assertion that there is not a single "one true Christianity" of the first century. Let's also emphasize that neither God nor Jesus were/are Christians/Mormons in any sense of those definitions themselves. Let's also embrace the fact that the apostles weren't in absolute agreement on what was considered correct theology and praxis. The absurdity of a cohesive 12 person discipleship is mind numbingly naive and uninformed. Christian belief was never monolithic. Theology and "orthodoxy" are developments of people embracing some idea of the Christ cult during the life of Jesus and post-crucifixion. 

[mfbukowski]

12 minutes ago, Damien the Leper said:

The absurdity of a cohesive 12 person discipleship is mind numbingly naive and uninformed. 

Unless it works.