7 Reasons Why Mormonism and Christianity Are Not the Same

[Stormin' Mormon]

6 hours ago, Sara H said:

 If we go around proclaiming that we are the only Christians in the world who have the priestly power and authority that God has given us, then we are never going to be fully accepted because that is not how the world operates. 

Teaching of the Church #1: The LDS Church is the sole institution authorized by Christ to conduct salvific ordinances. 

Teaching of the Church #2: We are to be meek, humble, lowly of heart, to love others as purely and as unconditionally as Christ has loved us.

If the problem with Teaching #1 only becomes apparent when Teaching #2 is ignored, I'm not sure that the fault lies with Teaching #1.

[Buckwheat]

On 6/9/2023 at 6:54 PM, Calm said:

That is assurance they are going to end up there, not that they are ready…unless Joseph Smith was very, very wrong

They never saw God during the ceremony. The promise to enter the celestial kingdom was made by a man during the ceremony,  seems sketchy to me.

[Buckwheat]

On 6/9/2023 at 8:39 AM, pogi said:

Are you talking about Hans and Birgitta Mattsson from Sweden?

 

Probably 

[Damien the Leper]

12 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Unless it works.

Except it didn't in the first century. Whatever happens at the COB today has nothing to do with the original 12 or first century Christianities.

[Teancum]

On 6/9/2023 at 4:17 PM, bluebell said:

Why is it you feel justified in pointing the finger at others but bristle if someone responds to you the same?  I wasn’t trying to be insulting, just pointing out a perceived double standard.

Ok.

On 6/9/2023 at 4:17 PM, bluebell said:

What is the result if we reject Christafter we know His will?  We don’t receive the blessings we otherwise could have received. That’s true for all of us. 

My main point is you and others here, to put it bluntly, speak out of both side of your mouths. On the one hand you want to give @Navidadrecognition as fully Christian.  On the other hand he won't be in the best place in the after life, nor is he a true follower of Christ, unless he ultimately, somewhere along the way, accepts the LDS gospel and ordinances.  You can't have it both ways. 

There was a time that the church actually took a stand on such things and was not and kind and did not play as nice about such things.  But know it seems playing nice is better. But the doctrine of the church is one must accept The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Church of Jesus Christ, acknowledge its authority, receive its ordinances or they have less of a rewards and are thus inferior.

[mfbukowski]

On 6/9/2023 at 3:54 PM, Calm said:

How can we truly accept and live something we don’t comprehend?

Become LDS "at birth".

Then they end up here, full of confusion so we get to fix it.  😱

Aren't we wonderful?  🥺

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Buckwheat said:

They never saw God during the ceremony. The promise to enter the celestial kingdom was made by a man during the ceremony,  seems sketchy to me.

Why would it need to be any different from any of the other ordinances we undergo for the promise of eternal life?

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, Teancum said:

You can't have it both ways. 

That is like saying we can’t have it both ways because we call someone a student, but insist if they want to graduate they have to take certain required courses, that somehow because this individual decides not to graduate, but just take the courses they want, they are not a true student in our eyes.

You are insisting we are using a definition for Christian that we are not.

[mfbukowski]

20 minutes ago, Teancum said:

There was a time that the church actually took a stand on such things and was not and kind and did not play as nice about such things.  But know it seems playing nice is better. But the doctrine of the church is one must accept The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Church of Jesus Christ, acknowledge its authority, receive its ordinances or they have less of a rewards and are thus inferior.

It is best for us as humans to eat our vegetables.

But kids don't like vegetables.  They want nothing but candy and ice cream.

We warn them they are not getting full nutrition but they don't believe it or want to believe it.  

Without vegetables for a lifetime, eating nothing but sugar, they end up obese, with diabetes, heart failure etc.  That is not the path of happiness, their bodies become "inferior" to those who exercised and ate well.

But mommy was nice and gave us what we liked, right?

So was mommy on the right track, or did we need to learn some tough love?

We CAN be taught, but it's hard to get the mix right

Edited June 12, 2023 by mfbukowski

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Ok.

My main point is you and others here, to put it bluntly, speak out of both side of your mouths. On the one hand you want to give @Navidadrecognition as fully Christian.  On the other hand he won't be in the best place in the after life, nor is he a true follower of Christ, unless he ultimately, somewhere along the way, accepts the LDS gospel and ordinances.  You can't have it both ways. 

There was a time that the church actually took a stand on such things and was not and kind and did not play as nice about such things.  But know it seems playing nice is better. But the doctrine of the church is one must accept The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Church of Jesus Christ, acknowledge its authority, receive its ordinances or they have less of a rewards and are thus inferior.

I think Cal addressed your point well.

I also hope that you noted Stormin' Mormon's post concerning your use of "LDS" to describe baptism and gospel and ordinances, and why it's not an accurate way to describe such things. 

[Sara H]

45 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I think Cal addressed your point well.

I also hope that you noted Stormin' Mormon's post concerning your use of "LDS" to describe baptism and gospel and ordinances, and why it's not an accurate way to describe such things. 

Is the LDS church or Christianity God's church? Because I have always believed it to be LDS doctrine that if you wish to join the LDS church, which we believe to be God's church, the first ordinance you must perform is baptism, and not just a Christian baptism, but an LDS baptism. Only a man with the appropriate priesthood authority may baptise a person into the church of God. Therefore, when someone refers to an LDS baptism, they mean a valid baptism that God accepts, not an apostate baptism that God rejects. Am I correct in my evaluation? 

 

How many of the approximately one billion Christians who have been baptised on earth today, according to LDS doctrine, would be considered valid baptisms? The answer consists of only LDS baptisms? 

 

 

 

[bluebell]

29 minutes ago, Sara H said:

Is the LDS church or Christianity God's church? Because I have always believed it to be LDS doctrine that if you wish to join the LDS church, which we believe to be God's church, the first ordinance you must perform is baptism, and not just a Christian baptism, but an LDS baptism. Only a man with the appropriate priesthood authority may baptise a person into the church of God. Therefore, when someone refers to an LDS baptism, they mean a valid baptism that God accepts, not an apostate baptism that God rejects. Am I correct in my evaluation? 

 

How many of the approximately one billion Christians who have been baptised on earth today, according to LDS doctrine, would be considered valid baptisms? The answer consists of only LDS baptisms? 

 

 

 

As I mentioned to Teancum, Stormin' Mormon has an excellent post addressing this issue.  The answer does not consist only of "LDS" baptism.  

[Stormin' Mormon]

1 hour ago, Sara H said:

Is the LDS church or Christianity God's church? Because I have always believed it to be LDS doctrine that if you wish to join the LDS church, which we believe to be God's church, the first ordinance you must perform is baptism, and not just a Christian baptism, but an LDS baptism. Only a man with the appropriate priesthood authority may baptise a person into the church of God. Therefore, when someone refers to an LDS baptism, they mean a valid baptism that God accepts, not an apostate baptism that God rejects. Am I correct in my evaluation? 

How many of the approximately one billion Christians who have been baptised on earth today, according to LDS doctrine, would be considered valid baptisms? The answer consists of only LDS baptisms? 

I believe you are conflating two concepts: a definition of "Disciple of Christ," and the act of making covenants.  Many Christian traditions see no difference between the two concepts, positing that a sincere commitment to discipleship is the functional equivalent to establishing a covenantal relationship. 

It can therefore be a little baffling to some when the LDS paradigm separates out the two concepts and treats them separately and distinctly. But in the LDS paradigm, one can make covenants without being a disciple, just as one can be a disciple without having made covenants.  A disciple without covenants is, in our eyes, still a disciple of Christ.  

Edited June 12, 2023 by Stormin' Mormon

[Teancum]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

It is best for us as humans to eat our vegetables.

But kids don't like vegetables.  They want nothing but candy and ice cream.

We warn them they are not getting full nutrition but they don't believe it or want to believe it.  

Without vegetables for a lifetime, eating nothing but sugar, they end up obese, with diabetes, heart failure etc.  That is not the path of happiness, their bodies become "inferior" to those who exercised and ate well.

But mommy was nice and gave us what we liked, right?

So was mommy on the right track, or did we need to learn some tough love?

We CAN be taught, but it's hard to get the mix right

I may be stupid but I have no idea what you are trying to get at by this post. But it really does seem that for you nothing really matters because you think God has told you the LDs paradigms is the best of all bests.

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I think Cal addressed your point well.

I also hope that you noted Stormin' Mormon's post concerning your use of "LDS" to describe baptism and gospel and ordinances, and why it's not an accurate way to describe such things. 

Yea i don't agree with@Stormin' Mormonapproach.  Nor yours.

[Navidad]

16 hours ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

Teaching of the Church #1: The LDS Church is the sole institution authorized by Christ to conduct salvific ordinances. 

Teaching of the Church #2: We are to be meek, humble, lowly of heart, to love others as purely and as unconditionally as Christ has loved us.

If the problem with Teaching #1 only becomes apparent when Teaching #2 is ignored, I'm not sure that the fault lies with Teaching #1.

I wish the order was reversed. I am going to start a new thread to further delve into this. I have been thinking about doing so for a few days now. Thanks.

[Navidad]

On 6/9/2023 at 2:04 PM, Stormin' Mormon said:

that authority has been administered by a number of different institutions

The authority is Christ-Holy Spirit-Person not Christ-Institution-Person. Can you provide a Biblical reference to your point of view? Where in the New Testament was any individual church granted any authority? It was always to invidiuals, was it not? Why would it be different today, especially when Hebrews clearly states He is High Priest and we are all the priests.

[Stormin' Mormon]

7 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I wish the order was reversed. I am going to start a new thread to further delve into this. I have been thinking about doing so for a few days now. Thanks.

My apologies.  Teaching #1 was placed as Teaching #1 only because that was the topic of this discussion. No implication of priority was intended.    

 

[Navidad]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

That is like saying we can’t have it both ways because we call someone a student, but insist if they want to graduate they have to take certain required courses, that somehow because this individual decides not to graduate, but just take the courses they want, they are not a true student in our eyes.

You are insisting we are using a definition for Christian that we are not.

In your example, who sets the graduation requirements and who is "we" in your example? What if the student is a student in a different university? Can university x deny graduation to student in university y because their (university x's graduation) requirements are different? The LDS church is setting the graduation requirements for every church on earth. That makes no sense to me. Do BYU's graduation requirements apply at every other university on earth? Don't their students have to take a religion course of some type? The "individual" you are talking about is going to Utah State. They aren't a true student who will graduate at BYU, but they sure are at Utah State, even without a religion course that BYU offers.

Edited June 12, 2023 by Navidad

[Navidad]

4 minutes ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

My apologies.  Teaching #1 was placed as Teaching #1 only because that was the topic of this discussion. No implication of priority was intended.    

 

Priority is exactly what I am getting at. Priority is what it is all about. Different faith groups establish different priorities for the attributes of Christianity and the doctrine of the specific church. That is what I would like to start a thread about. Oops. I need to start that thread as soon as I can get out of this one! Best!

[Navidad]

On 6/11/2023 at 12:22 PM, pogi said:

What do you mean by “oneness” and “unity of the whole”?  In what way?  How do you perceive such oneness and unity throughout Christianity happening while maintaining our doctrines and beliefs that cause distinction and division in views of salvation etc.?   Aren’t you asking people to abandon their doctrines and beliefs that might prohibit perfect balanced unity with the larger Christian community in order to assimilate into the vision of Christianity that you have?  It is almost as if you are asking us to abandon our beliefs so that we can be one with you.  It seems to be exactly the same thing you take issue with us trying to do in converting others in order to build unity.

If I am way off in my perception of your vision of unity, help me understand what you mean.  How could it be possible given our doctrines of priesthood authority, etc?  Wouldn’t the unity you envision require us abandoning our priesthood doctrines and an opting your priesthood of the believer doctrine?    

Yes,  you are off from my perception. I appreciate the "if." I am asking no one to abandon their doctrines and beliefs and I don't think differing beliefs prohibit perfectly balanced unity among Christians. You are correct about your conclusion if I were doing as you suggest. I am not however. I can't reply to everyone and not hijack the thread. So I am going to figure out how to start another thread on the issue you and Stormin Mormon raise. The New Testament is full of admonitions to seek unity with others. If it weren't possible it would have been an impossible admonition. Thanks for  your reply and for offering me an "if." That means a lot to me instead of just labeling my comments through your own lens. I appreciate that.
 

[Calm]

37 minutes ago, Navidad said:

who sets the graduation requirements

You are missing the point as I was using the post not to describe Christianity, eternal life, etc, but to point to what would be a similar misunderstanding by trying to pigeonhole how Saints use language by insisting we use it in ways we don’t.  It was discussing misuse of language, not trying to teach any principle.  Any university would work that required GE courses.

But if you want it to be an analogy, it could be this…

God set up all requirements long ago and oversees it.  There is no transferring to another university.

There is only one university, Life, and graduation means eternal life with God.  The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a department in that university, though the analogy fails a bit here because the students may also faculty….let’s say the vast majority of classes are taught by teaching assistants, though some would be by angels/messengers of God, the Holy Spirit would be overseeing and participating in every class, Jesus would have prepared some of the textbooks through prophets and scribes…The Church teaches some GE courses every student has to take in order to graduate, including learning about and hands on lab work in ordinances.  It is quite likely imo that other churches/faiths teach other courses, perhaps some that we will learn our required as well.  I believe there are classes in charity, etc where we need to take multiple classes and we have many different teachers from many different sources of truth and lots of lab work.

”We” are in general believing Saints who describe others as Christian while still believing in distinct principles and ordinances as taught be the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but specifically several of us posting here on this thread like myself, bluebell, Stormin’, Mfb…etc

Edited June 12, 2023 by Calm

[Navidad]

8 minutes ago, Calm said:

God.

”We” are in general believing Saints who describe others as Christian while still believing in distinct principles and ordinances as taught be the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but specifically several of us posting here on this thread like myself, bluebell, Stormin’, Mfb…etc

I believe Christ knows the graduation requirements, but has not seen fit to disclose them with exactitude to us in this dispensation. That is why I value trust and faith above doctrine, principles, ordinances, and beliefs. All those things change over time. My provisional certitude in my ultimate graduation is based on trust and faith in the mercy and righteousness of Christ (something that never changes). I have no course list, no graduations requirements, no GPA requirements, and no final exam requirements. I do have a code of conduct - the attributes of a Christian as in the fruits of the spirit, etc. That code is how He wants me to live while in school. I have no knowledge of what is an offense worthy of expulsion besides the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Take care and best wishes.

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I believe Christ knows the graduation requirements, but has not seen fit to disclose them with exactitude to us in this dispensation. That is why I value trust and faith above doctrine, principles, ordinances, and beliefs. All those things change over time. My provisional certitude in my ultimate graduation is based on trust and faith in the mercy and righteousness of Christ (something that never changes). I have no course list, no graduations requirements, no GPA requirements, and no final exam requirements. I do have a code of conduct - the attributes of a Christian as in the fruits of the spirit, etc. That code is how He wants me to live while in school. I have no knowledge of what is an offense worthy of expulsion besides the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Take care and best wishes.

Sounds like a wonderful paradigm to live by to me.

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

Yea i don't agree with@Stormin' Mormonapproach.  Nor yours.

That’s fine, when you are speaking for yourself. It’s when you proclaim what I believe or what the church requires members to believe that you’ll get pushback.