7 Reasons Why Mormonism and Christianity Are Not the Same

[pogi]

10 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Most Catholics or the official position of the Catholic Church?

I am aware of their position about baptism, I wasn’t aware of any official position as to our standing as Christians.

Do you know something that I don’t know?

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Sara H said:

the only Christians who have any actual power from God are members of the LDS church.

Baloney 

Do we not believe Mark 9:38-40/ Luke 9:49-50?

Edited June 8, 2023 by Calm

[Teancum]

3 minutes ago, pogi said:

I am aware of their position about baptism, I wasn’t aware of any official position as to our standing as Christians.

Do you know something that I don’t know?

Nope.  I did some searching and found some comments in some news article that the Catholic Church does not consider Mormonism Christian but nothing authoritative that I could rely on.  Do you perhaps know of something authoritative where the Catholic Church recognizes Mormonism as Christian?

[Teancum]

8 minutes ago, pogi said:

I am aware of their position about baptism, I wasn’t aware of any official position as to our standing as Christians.

Do you know something that I don’t know?

I did just find this but it does not look like an official source:

https://www.catholic.com/qa/what-does-the-catholic-church-say-about-the-practices-and-beliefs-of-mormonism

 

Here is their "About" Section of their website:

https://www.catholic.com/about

Answer:

Quote

 

While individual Mormons may be persons of good conscience, Mormonism itself is a belief system that would reduce the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit from being the three Persons of the one, true, and infinite God to being three limited, finite deities among an uncounted multitude of deities, all of whom merely reshaped small parts of a preexisting cosmos.

Mormonism teaches that human beings may, by practicing the tenets of its faith, become gods and goddesses themselves, with their own planets full of people worshiping them.

While the Catholic Church would reject nothing that is true or good in Mormonism or any other world religion, Catholic theology would have to note that there is a tremendous amount in Mormonism that is neither true nor good. Further, because Mormonism presents itself as a form of Christianity yet is incompatible with the historic Christian faith, sound pastoral practice would need to warn the Christian faithful: Mormon theology is blasphemous, polytheistic, and cannot be considered on par with the theology of other Christian groups.

 

 

 

[CV75]

I think the main reason “Mormonism” (Articles of Faith #5)) is not the same as “Christianity” (conciliar catholic doctrine per the OP article) is that God restored “the fulness of the gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles bear record; and they bear record according to the truth which is in the Lamb of God,” through the activities of Joseph Smith. The seven "views" are only appendages to that  .

[pogi]

8 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Nope.  I did some searching and found some comments in some news article that the Catholic Church does not consider Mormonism Christian but nothing authoritative that I could rely on.  Do you perhaps know of something authoritative where the Catholic Church recognizes Mormonism as Christian?

I guess I don’t need to ask for a CFR as to your claim that the Catholic Church doesn’t accept us as Christians - you don’t have one.

In other words, it was a baseless claim. 

My assumption is based on the idea that most Catholics would agree with the official position if there was one.  And those Catholics who argue that we are not Christians would reference that official position to convince other Catholics they are right.  That is surprisingly lacking - leading me to believe they don’t have any official position since Catholics seem to disagree, but with the seeming majority accepting us as Christian.

 

[Sara H]

31 minutes ago, Calm said:

If one is asking about this moment in time, of course.  We do temple work for everyone based on this doctrine

If I have understood you correctly, you feel that Navidad, a devout Christian who loves God and has given his mortal life to him, will need to adopt the LDS doctrine at some point, even after death, in order to be able to return to Heavenly Father? Am I correct in my interpretation of what you are saying? And he'll be able to do this because someone who practises our religion took care of his temple obligations? Because I had always held that conception of the world. 

 

It's possible that I'm completely off base because I haven't had much interaction with Navidad, but I think what he's trying to figure out is whether or not we feel that his Christianity, his beliefs, and his dedication to God are sufficient to lead him back to the heavenly kingdom where God resides, according to what we believe on a day-to-day basis. He wants to know if we believe this. I believe he is wondering whether or not we as Latter-day Saints feel that what he is doing on a daily basis is sufficient to get him into the kingdom where God lives, as opposed to just heaven. According to my interpretation of his question, he wants to know why, if he commits his life to God, we believe it is impossible for him to enter heaven unless he embraces the gospel preached by the Latter-day Saints either in this life or the life to come. Before I had my awakening, I didn't understand why Christians viewed us as being on the outside of the Christian faith, but now I'm beginning to see why they felt that way. And I believe the most important problem is the way that we understand God's authority and the fact that we are the only Christian faith on the entire planet that functions under that authority. 

 

 

[Calm]

7 hours ago, Teancum said:

Can Navidad enter the highest heaven without an LDS baptism?  Will he be with the Father?  If not then I think he has it pretty accurately.  Oh sure you may grant him the title of Christian but in the after life he is no fully rewarded at all.

It is not an LDS baptism in our doctrine.  It is Christ’s baptism.  If we are right and Navidad learns that truth eventually from the Spirit or through another means after death, will he refuse to be baptized if directed by Christ?  Will Saints have eternal life if we refuse the further ordinances and teachings that we will be given in the next life before we fully comprehend all that we will need for exaltation?

We mortals are in the university of discipleship of Christ (actually, maybe kindergarten or elementary if I give us the benefit of the doubt)..  There are a variety of classes, including some on priesthood and ordinances and others on charity, hearing the Spirit, Faith, Hope, Repentance, Baptism, etc.  Some Saints may excel in Priesthood related classes and bomb the Charity, Repentance, and Listening to the Spirit.  Some nonLDS Christians may excel at everything save priesthood authority and certain ordinances currently only performed with authority under the guidance of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  But in mortal terms, these latter individuals may be seniors with just a few classes to take when they cross the veil while maybe many Saints are more like sophomores or even freshmen even if we get passing grades in the priesthood and ordinances track of classes.

Only God really knows where we stand in comparison to each other when it comes to readiness for exaltation/eternal life….and my guess is those comparisons are irrelevant to him.  Where we have enough and can therefore share with and even teach others and where we lack and must be learned to be prepared for all his gifts are what only matters to him I believe.

I believe we are doing ourselves and each other a disservice if we start judging who is the most “saved”.  That is God’s job, not ours.

Edited June 9, 2023 by Calm

[Teancum]

3 minutes ago, pogi said:

I guess I don’t need to ask for a CFR as to your claim that the Catholic Church doesn’t accept us as Christians - you don’t have one.

Ok.  I did just post something that strongly indicates that stating it may not be authoritative.

 

3 minutes ago, pogi said:

In other words, it was a baseless claim. 

Apparently so.🙄

3 minutes ago, pogi said:

My assumption is based on the idea that most Catholics would agree with the official position if there was one.  And those Catholics who argue that we are not Christians would reference that official position to convince other Catholics they are right.  That is surprisingly lacking - leading me to believe they don’t have any official position since Catholics seem to disagree, but with the seeming majority accepting us as Christian.

 

Yet you have nothing to indicate the Catholic Church accepts Mormonism as Christian other that "Catholics."  How many Catholics do you know?  How many have to discussed this with? 

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, Sara H said:

If I have understood you correctly, you feel that Navidad, a devout Christian who loves God and has given his mortal life to him, will need to adopt the LDS doctrine at some point, even after death, in order to be able to return to Heavenly Father?

I believe he will need to learn and accept the full principles and ordinances of what God has to offer, just like all of us Saints will as well.

We do have some knowledge and ordinances he does not now accept that he will need to accept, just as we will need to accept any knowledge he has from God that we do not currently accept (I do not say ordinances in relation to Navidad because as far as I am aware he does not believe there are any required for eternal life) and likely other ordinances that God has for us.  

Joseph Smith taught there is much more learning about the principles of exaltation after life and it would take a long time to learn it all.  There has to be something new we must have to comprehend as I doubt it would take that long if taught the gospel as we now have it by heavenly teachers, even with correcting the nuances we get wrong.

[Sara H]

24 minutes ago, Calm said:

Baloney 

Do we not believe Mark 9:38-40/ Luke 9:49-50?

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/video/2012-01-0001-power-of-god?lang=eng

 

The priesthood is the power of God, and as far as I'm aware, only men who are members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints can exercise that ability. Unless you've learned something that I'm not aware of, which is quite unlikely. 

 

Does a Christian man who is not a member of the LDS Church have the power and authority of God to baptise another Christian?

 

[Teancum]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

It is not an LDS baptism in our doctrine.  It is Christ’s baptism.

Oh my.  Ok.  That helps Navidad exactly how?

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

 

 If we are right and Navidad learns that truth eventually from the Spirit or through another means after death, will he refuse to be baptized if directed by Christ?  Will Saints have eternal life if we refuse the further ordinances and teachings that we will be given in the next life before we fully comprehend all that we will need for exaltation?

So like Bluebell you agree that wonderful Christian Navidad is a nice guy and a Christian but not Christian enough unless at some point he accepts the LDS gospel and ordinances.  Don't you see how someone like Navidad would think this position is full of a lot of hubris and arrogance?  

 

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

We mortals in the university of discipleship of Christ.  There are a variety of classes, including some on priesthood and ordinances and others on charity, hearing the Spirit, Faith, Hope, Repentance, Baptism, etc.  Some Saints may excel in Priesthood related classes and bomb the Charity, Repentance, and Listening to the Spirit.  Some nonLDS Christians may excel at everything save priesthood authority and certain ordinances currently only performed with authority under the guidance of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  But in mortal terms, these latter individuals may be seniors with just a few classes to take when they cross the view while maybe many Saints are more like sophomores or even freshmen even if we get passing grades in the priesthood and ordinances track of classes.

Only God really knows where we stand in comparison to each other when it comes to readiness for exaltation/eternal life….and my guess is those comparisons are irrelevant to him.  Where we have enough and can therefore share with and even teach others and where we lack and must be learn to be prepared for his gifts are what only matters to him I believe.

I believe we are doing ourselves and each other a disservice if we start judging who is the most “saved”.  That is God’s job, not ours.

Well you are judging are you not?  @Navidadaccording to you and @bluebellwill eventually accept the LDS gospel and ordinances (Which you call Christ's gospel and ordinances-which begs the question of how Christian are the tenants, beliefs and ordinances, for those that have them, of other Christian sects).  If he doesn't well he is not with the Father in the Celestial kingdom. So you may state he is a Christian but not fully rewarded by God as a Christian until he accepts Mormonism.

[Calm]

There is an official Catholic position about who belongs to the Body of Christ.  My memory is it those who have been properly baptized and that this is the definition of Christian for the Catholic Church (Christians are those who belong to the Body of Christ).

These are quotes from the Catechism, which is official doctrine of the Catholic Church.

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p2.htm

Quote

One becomes a member of this people not by a physical birth, but by being "born anew," a birth "of water and the Spirit,"²⁰³ that is, by faith in Christ, and Baptism.

Also:

Quote

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers .... All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church." [UR 3 § 1][1271]

https://www.catholicdoors.com/catechis/cat0781.htm#:~:text=805 The Church is the,diversity of members and functions.

As I understand them, there are Catholics on this board who are open to LDS as Christians for a couple of reasons, but don’t believe I should speak for them as I may get it wrong plus it should be their choice to share their ideas when they want.

 

Edited June 9, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, Sara H said:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/video/2012-01-0001-power-of-god?lang=eng

 

The priesthood is the power of God, and as far as I'm aware, only men who are members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints can exercise that ability. Unless you've learned something that I'm not aware of, which is quite unlikely. 

 

Does a Christian man who is not a member of the LDS Church have the power and authority of God to baptise another Christian?

 

How does healing occur outside the priesthood?  How did Joseph receive revelation without the Priesthood?

Faith is also an expression of God’s power.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2017/04/the-power-of-god?lang=eng

Quote

Faith and priesthood go hand in hand. Faith is power and power is priesthood. After we gain faith, we receive the priesthood. Then, through the priesthood, we grow in faith until, having all power, we become like our Lord.

The Priesthood is the authorized use of God’s power on earth, his power of government, but that doesn’t prevent God sharing his power in other ways with those who have faith through his Spirit.

Quote

On June 9, the Prophet “said he was going to preach mercy[.] Supposing that Jesus Christ and [the] angels should object to us on frivolous things, what would become of us? We must be merciful and overlook small things.” President Smith continued, “It grieves me that there is no fuller fellowship—if one member suffer all feel it—by union of feeling we obtain pow’r with God.”1

That small sentence struck me like lightning. By union of feeling we obtain power with God…

I offer this invitation: be part of a collective force that changes the world for good. Our covenantal assignment is to minister, to lift up the hands that hang down, to put struggling people on our backs or in our arms and carry them. It isn’t complicated to know what to do, but it often goes against our selfish interests, and we have to try. The women of this Church have unlimited potential to change society. I have full spiritual confidence that, as we seek union of feeling, we will call down the power of God to make our efforts whole.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2020/10/31eubank?lang=eng

Edited June 9, 2023 by Calm

[Navidad]

22 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I guess I am not that interested in chasing this a whole lot further. I think your comments are tainted heavily by your personal view.  It certainly was not the view of the earlies LDS leaders.  And it certainly was not the majority of the view I grew up with under the likes of McConkie and JFS.   Nobody really knows in the LDS view how much of chance that someone who has heard the LDS gospel has had to accept it.  So maybe the sky is the limit.  Perhaps even an evil LDS apostate like me will get another chance if the LDS doctrine of the after life it correct.  On the other hand I have been told I may be a Son of Perdition. And I think about D&C 84 and The Oath and Covenant of the priesthood.  I am happy that the Mormonism seems more accepting of Apostate Christianity.  😀

The only thing I will leave is what I said. @Navidadseems like one of the most believing and faithful Christians I have run across. He almost persuade me to check out his type of Christianity.  Where I live there are a lot of Mennonites.  I don't know any personally though.  But one thing is certain in LDS doctrine.  If he does not receive and LDS baptism and the LDS temple ordinances he will not be in the Celestial Kingdom with the Father.  Do you dispute that?  That is LDS doctrine.  @bluebellwhen I stated this essentially said:

 

  Yet he seems delighted in his faith life. Why wouldn't God accept him to the highest reward based on his faith and devotion now? And Bluebell states that "if he really is a true follow of Christ he will accept those things he did not accept or understand in this life. thus receiving the same reward" But still he has to have the LDS ordinances or the best he can hope for is the terrestrial kingdom.  So he is Christian but without LDS ordinances he is a less than Christian at least based on what his eternal reward will be. So from Bluebells point of view if Navidad does not accept the LDS ordinances and gospel either in this life or the next he must not be a true follower of Christ? So he is Christian but not Christian enough unless he accept the LDS gospel at some point.  I wonder what @Navidadthinks of that?  

Well, once again I have to make this short because I have to make the drive to the US and back tomorrow. Lots to do to get ready. It is quite a journey through the Chihuahua desert. Teancum, it is very hard for me to get my head around the idea of having a second chance to be LDS on the other side of the veil. I have a form of provisional certainty that there will be no earthly denominations, groups, churches or institutions represented in the after-mortal-life. I see no Biblical evidence for that. I can't imagine a bazaar where each earthly faith has a booth to convince our spirits (souls?) that their faith is the correct one prior to judgement day. At the same time, I cannot conceive that of all Christianity the LDS will be the only group in the afterlife to have missionaries to proclaim only their gospel with the blessing of the Godhead.

I believe in the afterlife, the earthly institutional churches will give way to the bride of Christ, the true ekklesia, the community of Christian individuals from every group and from no group (the thief on the cross for example). Then I believe that at some point, Christ in the wideness of his mercy and balancing that with perfect righteousness will judge every human who ever lived based on criteria that He has not chosen to reveal to us. The community of Christian individuals will be judged and those who are granted access unto the Father will be joined by all those (probably a much bigger group) who Christ gives access to the Father based on His wisdom, judgment, mercy, and righteousness.

I believe the concept of The Book of Life, like much of Biblical symbolism is entirely metaphorical when corrected interpreted. I see no evidence in Scripture of ordinances (sacrament, baptism, feet washing, etc) in eternity. Bottom line, all of that is hidden from us. For me or anyone else to make broad-sweeping declarative statements about what will or will not happen at that point is an exercise in futility. I am happy to wait and learn at the appropriate time and place. Best, gotta run and pack the car. So many have written other posts. I appreciate everyone's input. I value what everyone of you have to say. I will respond as I can. Best wishes.

I believe that

[Stormin' Mormon]

15 minutes ago, Sara H said:

 

Does a Christian man who is not a member of the LDS Church have the power and authority of God to baptise another Christian?

 

Power and authority are two different things. A person can have one without the other. 

[Calm]

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/inspiration/where-we-find-the-power-of-god?locale=eng&lang=eng
 

Quote

Power. Women and men have been contending for it since the beginning of time. Strength. Might. The ability to do or act. Based on these definitions, we all have a desire for power.

In the Church, we talk a lot about the priesthood, or God’s power on the earth. From conversations that I’ve had with women and men over the years, there are some things we get wrong when it comes to understanding God’s power and who has access to it.

First, it’s important to acknowledge that there is already power in every kind, moral man and woman. When a person resists the negative influences in their surroundings and keeps the two great commandments to love God and love their neighbor—whether or not this person has made formal covenants with God to do so—there is already godly power at work in that individual’s life.

 

[Navidad]

11 minutes ago, Calm said:

How does healing occur outside the priesthood?  How did Joseph receive revelation without the Priesthood?

Calm: I appreciate you very much and I owe you a bunch of responses. I have to run to get organized to leave at 4AM for the states. It is a four hour drive each way. My wife and I enjoy the ride and talk about a host of topics on the way there and back. Thank you for not putting me on "ignore." I am a bit of a jigsaw puzzle without a picture on the lid. I might even have a few pieces missing! I can only say that you are correct, the LDS do not say I am not fully a Christian, so I will strike that from my vocabulary. What I will say is that some have quite a knack for making us feel liminal, less than. Someone who feels less than or liminal does not feel whole, I can testify to that, as can many members of the LDS church who have been confronted on street corners. I recently read a book by a religious historian who says the Saints, when they came to Mexico and ever since have been in a liminal position. I think she is correct. They are Mexican, but not Mexican enough. Those citizens who were born here were required until the 1960s to have immigration cards! To this day, using B. Carmon Hardy's term, they are cocooned, living a separate life. It is challenging position. I know the feeling, every time I see someone from the ward in the grocery store, hardware store or elsewhere. It has given me a a greater appreciation for those in life who feel liminal, betwixt and between, invisible yet present. More later. Best wishes and thanks to all of you who have been so kind to me lo these six years.

[manol]

1 hour ago, Sara H said:

Before I had an awakening to my spiritual nature...

 

50 minutes ago, Sara H said:

Before I had my awakening...

 

If you are comfortable elaborating, I'm interested in hearing about it. 

Edited June 9, 2023 by manol

[Navidad]

32 minutes ago, Sara H said:

Does a Christian man who is not a member of the LDS Church have the power and authority of God to baptise another Christian?

Absolutely. Both, come to the person from God via the spiritual leadership of the group, institution, or denomination of which the person is a member. For the LDS such power and authority is given by God through the wisdom and judgment of the local leaders. It is a power and authority that is limited to being exercised in the LDS church. It can be exercised nowhere else. No LDS elder can walk into a Methodist church and demand to baptize someone based on his power and authority. It is the same with me and everyone else who has ever been "authorized" and "empowered" to administer the sacraments (ordinances) in their respective church, institution, or group. Neither could I walk into a Methodist church and baptize someone. Ministerial authority and power are in reality Christ's lent to those via the Holy Spirit and the laying on of hands by those in authority and power to do so in the particular group. Have you ever seen a Methodist baptize someone in an LDS ward, or an LDS elder baptize someone in a Methodist church? I doubt it, because that is not how the diversity of churches is set up to function in this dispensation. Ultimately all such power and authority comes from Christ via the Holy Spirit. Gotta run. Take care.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

Well you are judging are you not?  @Navidadaccording to you and @bluebellwill eventually accept the LDS gospel and ordinances (Which you call Christ's gospel and ordinances-which begs the question of how Christian are the tenants, beliefs and ordinances, for those that have them, of other Christian sects).  If he doesn't well he is not with the Father in the Celestial kingdom. So you may state he is a Christian but not fully rewarded by God as a Christian until he accepts Mormonism.

Judging in what sense?  In the sense he has to accept truth, I make that judgment of everyone, myself included. No one will be fully rewarded until they accept the Atonement fully.  I think what we are getting now (and I mean everyone, not just LDS) are baby steps and there are ordinances out there whose power and meaning exceed even baptism and I hope I am humble enough to recognize them as gifts when the Spirit choose to teach me of them rather than being offended that what I have is not enough.  I suspect there is going to be something I struggle with.  I am human after all.  Maybe it is even something Navidad has been inspired to share with me now, but in my blindness I am not recognizing it yet.

And I don’t know what accepting the Atonement fully actually means.  I don’t believe the entirety has been revealed or can be revealed to mortal men for whom eternity makes no real sense (just what is needed for this stage).  

Plus I believe Navidad likely has experience with gospel truths I need to accept as well in order to be fully rewarded.  If not him specifically, I am certain there are plenty of nonLDS Christians and nonChristians out there who have.  It only makes sense given that God is content with allowing the vast majority of humanity to be nonLDS in mortality.  He is not going to have them waste all that time by having nothing of value to teach afterwards and instead only a handful of Saints have meaningful lives in terms of gospel truths….how inefficient.  Not godly at all.  Waste of good material.

That specific belief may not be doctrinal, but it is doctrinal even Saints will need to learn a lot more before we are prepared for exaltation than what is taught as Mormonism today.  Joseph Smith’s words quoted on the Church’s website and in the Gospel Principle manual, the basic manual produced by the Church for everyone.

And I don’t believe what we will have to finally accept will be Mormonism.  Mormonism isn’t the total sum of knowledge and power of God, thank goodness.  It is probably a pretty measly fraction of it actually with a good percentage of fluff and stuff stuck in by incorrect interpretations and false traditions (the Church may have gotten its authority solely from God, but it is obvious a lot of teachings got brought in from previous faiths, some good, some not so good and there is no reason I can see to assume we have been purged of them yet).  

The knowledge of a being that can comprehend the workings of the Universe to govern it, to act against the Law of Entropy to create eternal life…..that is a mass of godly knowledge and experience way beyond our comprehension…and God apparently intends to share it with us.  The mortal Church will need to be purified, sanctified as much as the individuals in the Church because it is mortal individuals doing the teaching…or at least putting the Spirit’s teachings into a common language…with all the typical errors that creep in when e have to depend on our own limited understanding to interpret the unlimited Spirit’s teachings..  Mormonism has the errors of men in it.  It will be the pure gospel of Christ unsullied by mortal mistakes that all of us will have to accept.  If we insist on staying with Mormonism, we ain’t making it to the CK, I am guessing.

Edited June 9, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Calm: I appreciate you very much and I owe you a bunch of responses. I have to run to get organized to leave at 4AM for the states. It is a four hour drive each way. My wife and I enjoy the ride and talk about a host of topics on the way there and back. Thank you for not putting me on "ignore." I am a bit of a jigsaw puzzle without a picture on the lid. I might even have a few pieces missing! I can only say that you are correct, the LDS do not say I am not fully a Christian, so I will strike that from my vocabulary. What I will say is that some have quite a knack for making us feel liminal, less than. Someone who feels less than or liminal does not feel whole, I can testify to that, as can many members of the LDS church who have been confronted on street corners. I recently read a book by a religious historian who says the Saints, when they came to Mexico and ever since have been in a liminal position. I think she is correct. They are Mexican, but not Mexican enough. Those citizens who were born here were required until the 1960s to have immigration cards! To this day, using B. Carmon Hardy's term, they are cocooned, living a separate life. It is challenging position. I know the feeling, every time I see someone from the ward in the grocery store, hardware store or elsewhere. It has given me a a greater appreciation for those in life who feel liminal, betwixt and between, invisible yet present. More later. Best wishes and thanks to all of you who have been so kind to me lo these six years.

That is a very good way of expressing your feelings, imo.  What is important to me is people understanding each other and we need to work hard to get the language right because there is so much baggage attached.

Edited June 9, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

I am not reading the posts in order, I started to, but then after I posted, I have to skim backwards to find the next post to read and stuff is jumping out at me.  And with my memory I have to post immediately or I may replace that thought with another…so apologies if this is confusing.

Quote

you believe that I live in a state of spiritual darkness

All humanity lives with the veil between us and God except where the Spirit lifts it.  Which doesn’t occur only under the authority of the Church or the modern Church would never have been organized.

I do believe you live in spiritual darkness, but I know I do.  Whenever I choose to walk my own way without listening to the Spirit, that’s where I am.  There is so much I desire to know and don’t and there is so much distortion interfering with my reception of the Spirit, I have to rely on faith to walk through the darkness.  My guess is you do the same.  I don’t know if my faith is stronger than yours just because I have participated in certain ordinances and you haven’t.  Maybe it is, maybe it isn’t.  Maybe your faith burns brighter than mine. I have had a pretty non eventful life, so my faith may be rather dull and sluggish, relying on a few simple things I choose not to question anymore as I see no need to do so.  Since I can’t read minds or spirits, I have no way of knowing to compare.  What only matters to me therefore is if my faith is light enough to get me heading in the general direction of God’s full light.  I have hope that it is because God is merciful.

Edited June 9, 2023 by Calm

[BlueDreams]

3 hours ago, Sara H said:

Do you feel it is possible to be FULLY Christian without adhering to the teachings of the restored gospel? If you go to the website of the church and read an article titled "Restoration of the Gospel," the first paragraph lays everything out for you by explaining that many men and women sought the FULNESS of the gospel truth during the centuries of great apostasy, but they were unable to find it. This occurred thousands of years after the gospel was removed from the earth as a result of widespread apostasy. Even while many people talked about Jesus Christ and his teachings in an honest manner, none of them possessed the FULL truth or the priestly authority that comes from God.

I don't know what it means to be fully Christian when someone says that. When I look it up on the same website of the church I get "believers in JC" Followed up with noting that followers of christ were also called saints. That's just a basic pass/fail litmus test. You believe Jesus is your lord and savior, you're christian. You don't, you're not christian. 

If you mean "fully christian" by their discipleship, no one's got that down. We may have needed covenants going for us as Latter-day Saints, and clarity or broadening of doctrines, but another outside the church may have nailed charity. All of us, no matter how "fully" (note I cringe writing that) we've sought christ in this life will not receive a fullness until after this life is done. As I mentioned there's a difference between institutional fullness (which the article you mention is pointing) and personal development and growth as a disciple of Christ. The article did not say that the people who sought out the fullness of the gospel and couldn't find it didn't finish with "and thus they could not fully be christian." Because that's not how that works.   

3 hours ago, Sara H said:

 

People, including Christians, were living in spiritual darkness since the restored gospel was not available on earth at the time, and they were unable to participate in the light of the wonderful gospel because of this. This is basically what the article is saying. Christians were barred from receiving the blessings of the restored gospel for close to two thousand years. These blessings include the ability to obtain a worthy baptism, remission of sins, and the companionship of the Holy Ghost. If they don't accept the gospel as it has been restored, then don't Christians who live in this day and age continue to be in a state of spiritual darkness? 

Based on a later post you wrote to Navidad I get why or how you personally got to such a conclusion. I think it make sense if one has a really black and white/all-or-nothing orientation. I can picture this forming in certain communities within the church with certain cultural proclivities that fuel all-or-nothing thinking, reinforcing the assumption you're mentioning in this. But this doesn't make this universal doctrine and this was not my experience. Some of my first spiritual experiences tied to learning everyone was loved by God, everyone would have all the oppurtunities needed to receive all that God has. I went and served with the idea and message in my head that we were there to add to the goodness and truth already there in people and their lives/faiths. I didn't experience some form of dissonance when I saw others not of our church showing great spiritual wealth and depth. Also, I think there's a reason that the restoration of the gospel pamphlet states something to help reduce the likelihood of someone assuming just because something is missing in an institution doesn't mean there wasn't truth available and goodness to be found in the people. (see here, page 8 ). 

If others don't accept the fullness of the gospel in this life, they will have the opportunity to do so in the next. I don't believe they are in a state of spiritual darkness because they're missing certain truths. Well, at least no more than I have in the past when I've missed spiritual truths for myself. And not that I have now. Recently I went through an experience that expanded my capacity to have compassion towards others, to care more, to empathize more. Before this experience I wasn't meandering about in spiritual darkness just because I hadn't grown in this way. I had learned to the degree I could and in the way that I was ready for. And I'll continue to do so hopefully for the rest of my life in ways that will likely surprise me. I don't assume I know what that process will be for others. I do not feel comfortable answering that question because I think it's prideful to assume group affinity means I have arrived while others are woefully in the darkness. 

 

With luv,

BD

[Calm]

7 hours ago, Teancum said:

But what if he has been fully preached to in this life and rejects the LDS message? 

What matters in my view is if the Spirit witnesses to him.  I believe that is doctrinal.  I am trying to remember if there is a specific place that is explicit about it or how I would phrase it to eliminate general spirit references and pin it down to this.***

I don’t believe a human on their own can fully preach the gospel.  Only the Spirit can.  If he rejects the Spirit after fully understanding what the Spirit is teaching, I see that as a problem.  But that is a high bar to get over, imo, as puny mortals. When in our immortal state, otoh,  my guess is quite possible, though perhaps only because we have the time.  Depends on how we get exposed to the full truth after death.  Is it obvious as in we recognize it’s Christ teaching us or does truth slowly come to us at our own speed of acceptance/ability to see clearly and Christ sends others until we can handle his word from his mouth or is it something completely different?

***I thought maybe using “second chance” (as in “no second chance”) would pull up something, as in accepting it later got you into the Terrestrial Kingdom as there were some around in my youth that interpreted not being valiant and receiving a testimony after mortality, but not before as having been taught the basic missionary lessons and refusing baptism and they made no distinction whether the person received a spiritual witness or not.  I am guessing they figured that the Spirit shows up for every missionary lesson to give that witness no matter what.  I don’t believe that if only because there are often physical limitations for understanding and receiving the Spirit (and if physical limitations, then mental, and if mental, then emotional, and if all three, why not spiritual as well?).  But I am only coming across instances of there are second chances, so no go as a search term.

Edited June 9, 2023 by Calm