What is a commandment that doesn't fall under Love God or neighbor?

[Rain]

I want to discuss in Sunday School commandments that fall under these two - love God and neighbor, but I want to be aware of things that may come up that don't seem to fall under one of both of those so that I can think of what I might say about them.  So...can you think of a commandment that doesn't fall under one of them?  Or can you think of one that doesn't seem to fall under one of them, but you have some insight into where it actually does?  

[InCognitus]

2 hours ago, Rain said:

I want to discuss in Sunday School commandments that fall under these two - love God and neighbor, but I want to be aware of things that may come up that don't seem to fall under one of both of those so that I can think of what I might say about them.  So...can you think of a commandment that doesn't fall under one of them?  Or can you think of one that doesn't seem to fall under one of them, but you have some insight into where it actually does?  

Do you have any reason to think that there are any commandments that don't fall under one or the other?   "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."  (Matthew 22:40)

I think they all fall into one or the other in some way.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Rain said:

I want to discuss in Sunday School commandments that fall under these two - love God and neighbor, but I want to be aware of things that may come up that don't seem to fall under one of both of those so that I can think of what I might say about them.  So...can you think of a commandment that doesn't fall under one of them?  Or can you think of one that doesn't seem to fall under one of them, but you have some insight into where it actually does?  

I would say none of them. “God’s commandments are a manifestation of His love for us, and obedience to His commandments is an expression of our love for Him.” (Carole M. Stephens, first counselor in the Relief Society general presidency, Oct. 2015 general conference.)

I think God always pairs love with action, and that a fulness of this pairing is established by a covenant relationship. This allows us to use our agency outside of commandments to show our love for God (D&C 58: 26 - 28).

26 For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is ^acompelled in all things, the same is a ^bslothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.

27 Verily I say, men should be ^aanxiously engaged in a good cause, and do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness;

28 For the power is in them, wherein they are ^aagents unto themselves. And inasmuch as men do good they shall in nowise lose their ^breward.

 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

It seems to me that any “commandment” can fit under the “Love God” mantra. All we have to do is assume God has our best interest at heart, and further assume that we humans know God’s will. Wipe out a rival tribe including men, women, children and animals? God, who sees the beginning and the end commanded it out of love. He knows how wicked they were and it was merciful to kill them to prevent further condemnation. God’s gives life and he can take it away. 

Edited May 19, 2023 by SeekingUnderstanding

[MrShorty]

In the spirit of brainstorming ideas, this comes to mind.

Speaking of the "Love God" command, @CV75 mentions that obedience is how we show our love for God. As LDS, we tend to believe that obedience is one of the highest virtues. In the spirit of brainstorming and playing devil's advocate, can we think of any scenario where disobedience would be more expressive of our love for God than obedience?

1) It's not a common interpretation, but I have seen an interpretation of Abraham's test to sacrifice Isaac that suggests that Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son was actually the wrong thing to do and a failure of his test. Is it possible that God wanted Abraham to look Him in the eye and say something like, "You've taught me that killing is wrong, so I refuse to sacrifice my son?" A similar thought could be directed at Nephi vis-a-vis Laban.

2) For whatever reason, this last time through the OT as we came to the famous scripture in 1 Sam about obedience (to obey is better than to sacrifice), I was acutely aware of the genocidal context for Samuel's condemnation of Saul. I recognize that Saul disobeyed for selfish reasons, but would it ever be appropriate to tell Samuel (and God through Samuel) that you refuse to slaughter your enemies indiscriminately because you find such a practice morally repugnant?

3) Or how about something lighter, but another case of conflicting commandments. The story in 1 Kings 13 comes to mind. As a quick refresher, a prophet from Juday is sent to deliver a message to Jereboam. God instructs him to not eat or drink until he returns to his home. He delivers his message and, while returning home, encounters another prophet who, having been instructed by God (according to the JST) to invite the Judahite prophet into his home for dinner, persuades him to disobey his first commandment in favor of this second commandment. He never makes it home as a result of his "disobedience." When faced with conflicting commandments, how do we show our love for God if we show our love by obedience?

Some possible discussion could be had around these kinds of moral conundrums that would allow us to think carefully about the idea that obedience is how we show our love for God.

[Rain]

1 hour ago, InCognitus said:

Do you have any reason to think that there are any commandments that don't fall under one or the other?   "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."  (Matthew 22:40)

I think they all fall into one or the other in some way.

I figured that if I didn't prepare that someone would probably throw me with their answer so I'm seeing what people come up with here.

I do think all of his commandments come under those 2, but personally don't believe that he gave some commandments the scriptures might talk about.

1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

It seems to me that any “commandment” can fit under the “Love God” mantra. All we have to do is assume God has our best interest at heart, and further assume that we humans know God’s will. Wipe out a rival tribe including men, women, children and animals? God, who sees the beginning and then end commanded it out of love. He knows how wicked they were and it was merciful to kill them to prevent further condemnation. God’s gives live and he can take it away. 

And this is one commandment that I personally don't believe came from God, but I know others will feel it did so I wanted to think about things like this before teaching if I could. Thank you for bringing it up and how one might look at it.

Edited May 19, 2023 by Rain

[Rain]

44 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

In the spirit of brainstorming ideas, this comes to mind.

Speaking of the "Love God" command, @CV75 mentions that obedience is how we show our love for God. As LDS, we tend to believe that obedience is one of the highest virtues. In the spirit of brainstorming and playing devil's advocate, can we think of any scenario where disobedience would be more expressive of our love for God than obedience?

1) It's not a common interpretation, but I have seen an interpretation of Abraham's test to sacrifice Isaac that suggests that Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son was actually the wrong thing to do and a failure of his test. Is it possible that God wanted Abraham to look Him in the eye and say something like, "You've taught me that killing is wrong, so I refuse to sacrifice my son?" A similar thought could be directed at Nephi vis-a-vis Laban.

2) For whatever reason, this last time through the OT as we came to the famous scripture in 1 Sam about obedience (to obey is better than to sacrifice), I was acutely aware of the genocidal context for Samuel's condemnation of Saul. I recognize that Saul disobeyed for selfish reasons, but would it ever be appropriate to tell Samuel (and God through Samuel) that you refuse to slaughter your enemies indiscriminately because you find such a practice morally repugnant?

3) Or how about something lighter, but another case of conflicting commandments. The story in 1 Kings 13 comes to mind. As a quick refresher, a prophet from Juday is sent to deliver a message to Jereboam. God instructs him to not eat or drink until he returns to his home. He delivers his message and, while returning home, encounters another prophet who, having been instructed by God (according to the JST) to invite the Judahite prophet into his home for dinner, persuades him to disobey his first commandment in favor of this second commandment. He never makes it home as a result of his "disobedience." When faced with conflicting commandments, how do we show our love for God if we show our love by obedience?

Some possible discussion could be had around these kinds of moral conundrums that would allow us to think carefully about the idea that obedience is how we show our love for God.

Very good thoughts and questions.  Thank you.

[blackstrap]

One of the first lessons in class discipline I received was to not punish a whole class for the errors of a few. Seems like God missed that memo. Consider the story in the OT where David ,against direct command, decided the count the people of Israel. God had David choose one of 3 possible punishments , all involved punishing the innocent and not David directly. Maybe God doe not consider His children as neighbors. 

[Rain]

3 minutes ago, blackstrap said:

One of the first lessons in class discipline I received was to not punish a whole class for the errors of a few. Seems like God missed that memo. Consider the story in the OT where David ,against direct command, decided the count the people of Israel. God had David choose one of 3 possible punishments , all involved punishing the innocent and not David directly. Maybe God doe not consider His children as neighbors. 

This story is not coming to mind.  Could you share a little more about it please to help me with my memory or tell me where to find it? 

[Calm]

16 minutes ago, Rain said:

This story is not coming to mind.  Could you share a little more about it please to help me with my memory or tell me where to find it? 

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Chronicles 21&version=NCV

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2 Samuel 24&version=NCV

Edited May 19, 2023 by Calm

[JLHPROF]

7 hours ago, Rain said:

I want to discuss in Sunday School commandments that fall under these two - love God and neighbor, but I want to be aware of things that may come up that don't seem to fall under one of both of those so that I can think of what I might say about them.  So...can you think of a commandment that doesn't fall under one of them?  Or can you think of one that doesn't seem to fall under one of them, but you have some insight into where it actually does?  

Everything is tangentially related to loving God because "if you love me keep my commandments".  It's the sum of the law and commandments.  Basically if we love God we'll do whatever he commands.

But that doesn't mean every commandment can be replaced by just "loving God and your neighbor".  Some commandments are specific and while God may make them out of love for his children and we may obey them out of love in and of themselves they aren't just commanding love.

 

Matthew 28:19 ¶ Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:

D&C 93:53 And, verily I say unto you, that it is my will that you should hasten to translate my scriptures, and to obtain a knowledge of history, and of countries, and of kingdoms, of laws of God and man, and all this for the salvation of Zion. Amen.

I Nephi 4:12 And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me again: Slay him, for the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands

Genesis 6:14 ¶ Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.

[mfbukowski]

15 hours ago, MrShorty said:

In the spirit of brainstorming and playing devil's advocate, can we think of any scenario where disobedience would be more expressive of our love for God than obedience?

The "Fortunate Fall."

No agency= useless commandments.

The very ability to follow the commandments suggests that we have an option not to.

[Jaydes]

"If ye love me ye will keep my commandments."

I would argue that all commandments fall under "Love God" at bare minimum.

[CV75]

17 hours ago, MrShorty said:

In the spirit of brainstorming ideas, this comes to mind.

Speaking of the "Love God" command, @CV75 mentions that obedience is how we show our love for God. As LDS, we tend to believe that obedience is one of the highest virtues. In the spirit of brainstorming and playing devil's advocate, can we think of any scenario where disobedience would be more expressive of our love for God than obedience?

1) It's not a common interpretation, but I have seen an interpretation of Abraham's test to sacrifice Isaac that suggests that Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son was actually the wrong thing to do and a failure of his test. Is it possible that God wanted Abraham to look Him in the eye and say something like, "You've taught me that killing is wrong, so I refuse to sacrifice my son?" A similar thought could be directed at Nephi vis-a-vis Laban.

2) For whatever reason, this last time through the OT as we came to the famous scripture in 1 Sam about obedience (to obey is better than to sacrifice), I was acutely aware of the genocidal context for Samuel's condemnation of Saul. I recognize that Saul disobeyed for selfish reasons, but would it ever be appropriate to tell Samuel (and God through Samuel) that you refuse to slaughter your enemies indiscriminately because you find such a practice morally repugnant?

3) Or how about something lighter, but another case of conflicting commandments. The story in 1 Kings 13 comes to mind. As a quick refresher, a prophet from Juday is sent to deliver a message to Jereboam. God instructs him to not eat or drink until he returns to his home. He delivers his message and, while returning home, encounters another prophet who, having been instructed by God (according to the JST) to invite the Judahite prophet into his home for dinner, persuades him to disobey his first commandment in favor of this second commandment. He never makes it home as a result of his "disobedience." When faced with conflicting commandments, how do we show our love for God if we show our love by obedience?

Some possible discussion could be had around these kinds of moral conundrums that would allow us to think carefully about the idea that obedience is how we show our love for God.

I think that obedience without an eye toward the godly attributes it is designed to cultivate, primarily charity, is not a good thing.

RE: 31, God explained to Nephi the sense of obeying; I assume it was established that he and God loved each other.

RE: #2, Nephi’s conversation with God differs only as a matter of scale (and perhaps accuracy in storytelling).

RE: #3, we have the gift and companionship of eh Holy Ghost.

Sometimes we may make an honest mistake, but when we act in good faith, we will eventually develop the godlier attributes by God's grace.

[CV75]

17 hours ago, Rain said:

I figured that if I didn't prepare that someone would probably throw me with their answer so I'm seeing what people come up with here.

I do think all of his commandments come under those 2, but personally don't believe that he gave some commandments the scriptures might talk about.

And this is one commandment that I personally don't believe came from God, but I know others will feel it did so I wanted to think about things like this before teaching if I could. Thank you for bringing it up and how one might look at it.

I think this is where the Holy Ghost and conscience, good faith and honest effort come in handy. There are lots of gray areas to navigate in life, such as serving in the military and killing in war; political expediencies for a free and orderly pluralistic society; etc., and how God's commandments apply. Our covenant relationship with God, as an expression of the love between us and toward all His children, however, is quite simple: keep the specific covenants we enter into ("all we can do") and receive divine grace.

[manol]

@Rain, this is just my opinion:  On one level “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength” and “Love your neighbor as yourself” are commandments, indeed the two most fundamental commandments.

On another level, imo these are two of the greatest TEACHINGS we have been given.  Imo they are well worth pondering, inclusive of the oft-overlooked phrase which connects them: "And the second is like unto [the first]." 

 

On 5/19/2023 at 6:02 PM, Rain said:

And this is one commandment that I personally don't believe came from God...

Good for you for thinking outside the box on the subject of alleged commandments to commit genocide!  

The phrase which unifies the First and Second Great commandments is: “And the second is like unto [the first]”.  So they are alike, not different.  That which is of God is not merely consistent with either the one or the other; rather, that which is of God is consistent with BOTH of these greatest of commandments (and imo greatest of teachings).  Genocide is clearly not consistent with both, and imo therefore is not consistent with either. 

 

 

Edited May 20, 2023 by manol

[The Nehor]

“Thou shalt hate God.”

[Eschaton]

I think you could compress it further down even into just "love thy neighbor." The way to serve God is to serve your neighbor. 

[JAHS]

On 5/19/2023 at 11:51 AM, Rain said:

I want to discuss in Sunday School commandments that fall under these two - love God and neighbor, but I want to be aware of things that may come up that don't seem to fall under one of both of those so that I can think of what I might say about them.  So...can you think of a commandment that doesn't fall under one of them?  Or can you think of one that doesn't seem to fall under one of them, but you have some insight into where it actually does?  

I am teaching that lesson too. A side question is can anyone actually be commanded to love God or another person? Isn't that a feeling that comes from within using our agency to decide who to love?
The only answer I can come up with is that God is not commanding it because He needs our love, but because we need to love others which makes us a better person.

[manol]

1 hour ago, JAHS said:

I am teaching that lesson too. A side question is can anyone actually be commanded to love God or another person?

Yes, love IS an odd thing to command!

1 hour ago, JAHS said:

Isn't that a feeling that comes from within using our agency to decide who to love?

Perhaps it is more a state of being (or a spiritual energy level), rather than a selective decision about "who" to love.

1 hour ago, JAHS said:

The only answer I can come up with is that God is not commanding it because He needs our love, but because we need to love others which makes us a better person.

Agreed!  I'm sure these two great commandments are intended to have, and indeed DO have, the effect of elevating us.

Imo one of the teachings hidden in the commandment to love God with all our heart and all our mind and all our strength is that we actually have NO valid reason to fear God!  Let me explain:

Would Christ give us a commandment, much less a First and Great Commandment, which is impossible for us to keep?  No, that would be cruel, and Christ is not cruel.

Next question, is it possible to love that which you fear?  Well maybe kinda sorta... so let me rephrase the question:  Is it possible to love that which you fear "with all your heart and with all your mind and with all your strength"; in other words, completely and without reservation?  And the answer is, no.   We cannot love that which we fear completely and without reservation. 

So the ONLY way we can possibly obey the First and Great Commandment is, if we have NO VALID REASON to fear God! 

I am aware that in Proverbs it says "fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom."  But it is ONLY the beginning!  If we continue down the path of light at some point we arrive at "perfect love" (aka "the pure love of Christ"), and "perfect love casts out fear."   Imo this includes any and all fear we may have of God for our own soul or for anyone else's. 

Imo the Two Great Commandments also constitute Two Great (and multi-layered) Teachings, which whether obvious or not, are the core essence of the Gospel (the "good news"). 

Edited May 21, 2023 by manol

[manol]

On 5/20/2023 at 10:03 PM, Eschaton said:

I think you could compress it further down even into just "love thy neighbor." The way to serve God is to serve your neighbor. 

The "commandment" aspect could perhaps be compressed into just  "love thy neighbor", but imo the TEACHING aspect includes the phrase "as yourself" and involves a shift in perception to a higher level.   One of the teachings hidden in the Second Great Commandment is the denial of separation and the affirmation or claim of union:  "I love my neighbor AS my self." 

The Tao Te Ching articulates this same teaching, this same shift in perception to a higher level, in this way:  "Love the whole world as if it were your self."   This is probably an unfamiliar idea so you might give it a quick trial run and observe how it feels, as a miniature one-sentence Alma Chapter 32 thing:  "I love the whole world as if it were my self." 

Edited May 22, 2023 by manol

[Dario_M]

Are we talking about the 10 commandments?  

[Kenngo1969]

@Rain

I'm curious to know how your lesson went.  Did anyone ask The Dreaded Question?

Thanks,

-Ken

[Rain]

3 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

@Rain

I'm curious to know how your lesson went.  Did anyone ask The Dreaded Question?

Thanks,

-Ken

Lol They didn't.  The lesson went very well.  Thanks for asking. 

My plan was for them to write down a commandment on a post it note.  Then when everyone had done so I invited them to come put it under "love God" or "love neighbor" on the chalkboard and then discuss why some of those things are under that commandment.

I started wondering if I should even do this part - I get ideas, but then try to think "what is the purpose of doing this? Encourage someone to do something? Help them learn about something specific?".

I ended up giving a talk last week and much of what I would want to cover with this question I had already covered in the talk so I was a little worried about doing this activity. I was discussing my lesson with my husband and he said it would have people participating and so I instantly knew I should do it - if people participate on an easy thing like this then they would be much more ready to participate on my next things that were more reading scripture intense. My husband said as far as he could tell all, but 2, people participated. It actually surprised me that the percentage was so high though I did notice a few people who I would have expected not to participate were missing. 

The discussion went well with that and then continued when we went further.

Edited May 25, 2023 by Rain

[Rain]

1 hour ago, Dario_M said:

Are we talking about the 10 commandments?  

Didn't matter.  Just anything someone considered a commandment.