Diversity of this forum

[manol]

14 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I read Dewey's paper about what led to him leaving the church and some stuff from his website several years ago and found it interesting. 

I highly recommend "The Molecular Relationship".  Here's why: 

The final verse of Section 132 says that there is another revelation yet to come, which (to the best of my knowledge) we have no record of.  However imo we DO see evidence of a subsequent paradigm shift (if not a subsequent revelation) in the way Joseph Smith's focus evolved:  During the last year of his life (based on my amateur investigation of such), his focus apparently shifted from plural marriages to the Quorum of the Anointed, which functioned as the highest Quorum in the church, and which included both men and women.  The Quorum of the Anointed may have been an attempt at something similar to what JJ Dewey describes as a "Molecular Relationship."

14 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I believe that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord’s one true and living church upon the earth, even though I have concerns over the church abandoning or changing previous teachings, changing the ordinances...

The issue which loomed large for me was, women giving blessings.  Women blessing and healing the sick was a common practice in the Nauvoo and early Utah Valley eras, and it did not (and does not) make sense to me that it be discontinued.  My understanding is that the practice was discontinued largely because the Church wanted to emphasize the primacy of priesthood lines of authority in its competition with early fundamentalist (polygamist) off-shoot groups over legitimacy claims.  Women giving blessings could be cited as evidence of God approving of and working through non-priesthood-line channels, which undermined the LDS Church's position that all legitimate lines of authority go through the President of the Church. 

I respect your conclusion that the LDS Church is the correct one despite the concerns you have. 

Edited March 27, 2023 by manol

[InCognitus]

13 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Verse 8-16 don’t say anything about the Lost 10 tribes being gathered at this time. This happens beginning in verse 26. Which is after the following events happen:

20 For behold, [Jesus Christ] shall stand upon the mount of Olivet, and upon the mighty ocean, even the great deep, and upon the islands of the sea, and upon the land of Zion.
21 And he shall utter his voice out of Zion, and he shall speak from Jerusalem, and his voice shall be heard among all people;
22 And it shall be a voice as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder, which shall break down the mountains, and the valleys shall not be found.
23 He shall command the great deep, and it shall be driven back into the north countries, and the islands shall become one land;
24 And the land of Jerusalem and the land of Zion shall be turned back into their own place, and the earth shall be like as it was in the days before it was divided.
25 And the Lord, even the Savior, shall stand in the midst of his people, and shall reign over all flesh.

Then the lost the 10 tribes will return:

26 And they who are in the north countries shall come in remembrance before the Lord; and their prophets shall hear his voice, and shall no longer stay themselves; and they shall smite the rocks, and the ice shall flow down at their presence.
27 And an highway shall be cast up in the midst of the great deep.
28 Their enemies shall become a prey unto them,
29 And in the barren deserts there shall come forth pools of living water; and the parched ground shall no longer be a thirsty land.
30 And they shall bring forth their rich treasures unto the children of Ephraim, my servants.
31 And the boundaries of the everlasting hills shall tremble at their presence.
32 And there shall they fall down and be crowned with glory, even in Zion, by the hands of the servants of the Lord, even the children of Ephraim.
33 And they shall be filled with songs of everlasting joy.
34 Behold, this is the blessing of the everlasting God upon the tribes of Israel, and the richer blessing upon the head of Ephraim and his fellows.

 

I think President Nelson is correct where he says,  "I testify that the gathering is now, and it is real", don't you?  (Or do you disagree with him?)

As for your interpretation of D&C 133, you're assuming that the events described in verses 26-34 are everything to do with the gathering of Israel, which is clearly not the case (see my prior post to Navidad and President Nelson's statement).  Those verses (26-34) have to do with the second coming when several events take place when Jesus returns, which includes the tribes of Israel being "crowned with glory" and they will have blessings pronounced upon them (verse 32 and 34-35).  This doesn't describe the discovery of those tribes, but it is their crowning glory (in a literal sense).  

The discovery of the "lost" tribes and gathering of those tribes is happening now, and it has been happening since the coming forth of the Book of Mormon and the restoration of the keys of the gathering of Israel when Moses appeared and gave those keys to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery on April 3, 1836 (D&C 110), and of Orson Hyde's dedication of the Holy Land for the gathering of Israel on October 24, 1941.  

The coming forth of their records isn't described as happening at any particular point of time.  It could be sooner or it could be later, and it certainly could be at the time we are recovering them from the nations (like right now):

Quote

11 For I command all men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them; for out of the books which shall be written I will judge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written.
12 For behold, I shall speak unto the Jews and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the Nephites and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the other tribes of the house of Israel, which I have led away, and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto all nations of the earth and they shall write it.
13 And it shall come to pass that the Jews shall have the words of the Nephites, and the Nephites shall have the words of the Jews; and the Nephites and the Jews shall have the words of the lost tribes of Israel; and the lost tribes of Israel shall have the words of the Nephites and the Jews.
14 And it shall come to pass that my people, which are of the house of Israel, shall be gathered home unto the lands of their possessions; and my word also shall be gathered in one. And I will show unto them that fight against my word and against my people, who are of the house of Israel, that I am God, and that I covenanted with Abraham that I would remember his seed forever.
(2 Nephi 29:11–14)

This is why I say we could possibly see some of these records come to light from time to time. 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, CA Steve said:

The Book of Mormon itself was written to the Lamanites who are part of the Lost Ten Tribes.

No, they are not, except those that joined the Lamanites later on, being scattered among the nations and all.  So no more Lost Tribes than the rest of the world.  Lamanites are seen as Jews as were the Nephites.  https://bookofmormonevidence.org/lamanites-remnants-of-the-jews/

Nephi even refers to that event, which happened prior to the Book of Mormon’s beginning, the destruction of Israel, the northern kingdom of ten tribes that were deported by Assyrian conquerors.  Lehites were, of course, from Judah and thus Jews.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/1-ne/22?lang=eng&id=4#4

Jesus also refers to visiting them.

Quote

4 But now I go unto the Father, and also to show myself unto the lost tribes of Israel, for they are not lost unto the Father, for he knoweth whither he hath taken them.

 

Edited March 27, 2023 by Calm

[MiserereNobis]

7 hours ago, Navidad said:

The Catholic Church was sometimes presented as the arch epitome of Babylon, but yet it (Babylon) was much more at the same time.

Hold up. We’re not Babylon; we’re the whore of Babylon. Get it straight! 😁😉

[CA Steve]

49 minutes ago, Calm said:

No, they are not, except those that joined the Lamanites later on, being scattered among the nations and all.  So no more Lost Tribes than the rest of the world.  Lamanites are seen as Jews as were the Nephites.  https://bookofmormonevidence.org/lamanites-remnants-of-the-jews/

Nephi even refers to that event, which happened prior to the Book of Mormon’s beginning, the destruction of Israel, the northern kingdom of ten tribes that were deported by Assyrian conquerors.  Lehites were, of course, from Judah and thus Jews.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/1-ne/22?lang=eng&id=4#4

Jesus also refers to visiting them.

 

You are correct, I should have said they are part of Israel. I will edit my response accordingly.

[MustardSeed]

24 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Hold up. We’re not Babylon; we’re the whore of Babylon. Get it straight! 😁😉

Oh boy.  Not to most of us you’re not. ❤️

[Navidad]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

Hold up. We’re not Babylon; we’re the whore of Babylon. Get it straight! 😁😉

We were young very conservative folks. We wouldn't have used the w word! 😀  BTW, my older sister voted for Kennedy for president. That drove my dad nuts!

[InCognitus]

On 3/27/2023 at 8:01 AM, Navidad said:

I must admit that this whole LDS concept of the gathering of the Lost tribes of Israel is new to me. I have look all over online, including LDS official sites and find nothing that helps me understand it. Can anyone recommend an article, monograph, or book that explains the LDS concept of their relationship with the lost tribes of Israel. Is it a form or precursor of Armstrongism, another restorationist movement? At any rate, I want to learn more. I need sources! Thanks.

I have another article (a transcript of a talk, actually) I wanted to recommend yesterday, but I couldn't put my fingers on it at the time.  It's one I listened to when I was on one of my road trips between Arizona and Utah.  It's a presentation given by Joseph F. McConkie on August 18, 2008 at BYU Education Week, "The Gathering of Israel".   It's on Youtube here.  But the full transcript can be found here.  

He presents his information in a question and answer format, and deals with several common questions about the gathering of Israel. 

For example, to the specific question:  "Have the ten tribes been scattered throughout all the nations of the earth or have they remained together as a people?"  He gives this answer:

Quote

Answer: We have a host of scriptural texts that tell us that all twelve of the tribes of Israel have been scattered among all the nations of the earth. Mormon stated the matter thus:

And as surely as the Lord liveth, will he gather in from the four quarters of the earth all the remnant of the seed of Jacob, who are scattered abroad upon all the face of the earth.

And as he hath covenanted with all the house of Jacob, even so shall the covenant wherewith he hath covenanted with the house of Jacob be fulfilled in his own due time, unto the restoring all the house of Jacob unto the knowledge of the covenant that he hath covenanted with them.

And then shall they know their Redeemer, who is Jesus Christ, the Son of God; and then shall they be gathered in from the four quarters of the earth unto their own lands, from whence they have been dispersed; yea, as the Lord liveth so shall it be. Amen. (3 Nephi 5:24–26)

Scriptural language cannot be more emphatic than this. As both an introduction and a conclusion, Mormon states that if God lives, what he has said must be true. He tells us that all the tribes have been scattered among all nations and that they are to come to a knowledge of the covenant that God made with their fathers and to a knowledge of Christ before they can be returned to their lands of inheritance. It appears that the ten tribes were together in various groups and were visited by Christ after he visited the Nephites; but like the Nephites, they became “a lost and fallen people” and were scattered.

There are a lot of biblical texts that address these same questions as well.

Edited March 28, 2023 by InCognitus

[jkwilliams]

19 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Hold up. We’re not Babylon; we’re the whore of Babylon. Get it straight! 😁😉

Close, but not quite. "It is also to the Book of Mormon to which we turn for the plainest description of the Catholic Church as the great and abominable church." -- Bruce McConkie

[InCognitus]

26 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Close, but not quite. "It is also to the Book of Mormon to which we turn for the plainest description of the Catholic Church as the great and abominable church." -- Bruce McConkie

That's not so bad.

[bluebell]

45 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Close, but not quite. "It is also to the Book of Mormon to which we turn for the plainest description of the Catholic Church as the great and abominable church." -- Bruce McConkie

I’m so grateful that the prophet made elder McConkie remove that part from his Mormon Doctrine book.  And I’m also very annoyed that he ever said it and so many people just ran with it.

[jkwilliams]

13 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I’m so grateful that the prophet made elder McConkie remove that part from his Mormon Doctrine book.  And I’m also very annoyed that he ever said it and so many people just ran with it.

Well, I just quoted it in the joking spirit of the previous posts. In my mission, we called McConkie’s book “Bruce’s Believe It or Not.” I never believed that part. Although once, a companion pointed to the Cathedral of San Bernardo and asked me if I knew what it was called. “La iglesia grande y abominable.” We had a good laugh about it. 

Edited March 28, 2023 by jkwilliams

[CA Steve]

2 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

Well, I just quoted it in the joking spirit of the previous posts. In my mission, we called McConkie’s book “Bruce’s Believe It or Not.” I never believed that part. Although once, a companion pointed to the Cathedral of San Bernardo and asked me if I knew what it was called. “La iglesia grande y abominable.” We had a good laugh about it. 

Being older and wiser than you, I referred to Elder McConkie's work as the black bible and had a copy of it on my mission, where, I can assure you, we spoke reverently of him and took everything he said seriously. I was working in the mission home when he visited our mission, and I got the chance to drive him around a bit. Serious guy but interesting. I still have a 1st edition copy of his book. I swear the kids in your ward needed a lot better parenting.

[The Nehor]

22 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Hold up. We’re not Babylon; we’re the whore of Babylon. Get it straight! 😁😉

I refuse to do anything in a straight fashion.

[jkwilliams]

54 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

Being older and wiser than you, I referred to Elder McConkie's work as the black bible and had a copy of it on my mission, where, I can assure you, we spoke reverently of him and took everything he said seriously. I was working in the mission home when he visited our mission, and I got the chance to drive him around a bit. Serious guy but interesting. I still have a 1st edition copy of his book. I swear the kids in your ward needed a lot better parenting.

Nah, Third Ward was always the best. 

[Nemesis]

Do we count for being diversified?  I mean we are legion.  
 

Nemesis

[mfbukowski]

6 minutes ago, Nemesis said:

Do we count for being diversified?  I mean we are legion.  
 

Nemesis

+1.

Diversity is a good thing IF you are open to it.

THAT is the problem.

Fundamentalist literalism. Diversity not allowed.

[Nemesis]

22 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

+1.

Diversity is a good thing IF you are open to it.

THAT is the problem.

Fundamentalist literalism. Diversity not allowed.

I mean the more we are the better we are.  We can’t be legion if we are only one! 

[jkwilliams]

3 minutes ago, Nemesis said:

I mean the more we are the better we are.  We can’t be legion if we are only one! 

Do I count the legions of voices in my head?

[InCognitus]

On 3/26/2023 at 11:29 PM, Grug the Neanderthal said:

26 And they who are in the north countries shall come in remembrance before the Lord; and their prophets shall hear his voice, and shall no longer stay themselves; and they shall smite the rocks, and the ice shall flow down at their presence.
27 And an highway shall be cast up in the midst of the great deep.
28 Their enemies shall become a prey unto them,
29 And in the barren deserts there shall come forth pools of living water; and the parched ground shall no longer be a thirsty land.
30 And they shall bring forth their rich treasures unto the children of Ephraim, my servants.

Regarding the coming forth of the records of the lost tribes, I just wanted to add that verse 30 (of your quote from D&C 133) may be an indication of their records as part of their "rich treasures".  But that could mean other things too.  I'm just trying to leave the options open.

[Grug the Neanderthal]

On 3/27/2023 at 1:01 PM, InCognitus said:

I think President Nelson is correct where he says,  "I testify that the gathering is now, and it is real", don't you?  (Or do you disagree with him?)

It depends on what he means by the gathering of Israel being now and being real. If he is referring to the preliminary gathering of the tribe of Ephraim, a sizable portion of Manasseh, and a few members of other tribes to stakes throughout the world, then I agree with him. 

If he is referring to the literal gathering of Israel and the restoration of the lost 10 tribes from the North, then no I don’t agree with this. But since he hasn’t specifically said that this is what he means, I don’t think he does.

Another question is about what lineage those who are currently being gathered to various stakes around the world actually come from. Are they mostly literal descendants of Ephraim, Manasseh, and a few from the other tribes? Or are they mostly literal gentiles who are being adopted into the house of Israel?

On 3/27/2023 at 1:01 PM, InCognitus said:

The discovery of the "lost" tribes and gathering of those tribes is happening now, and it has been happening since the coming forth of the Book of Mormon and the restoration of the keys of the gathering of Israel when Moses appeared and gave those keys to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery on April 3, 1836 (D&C 110), and of Orson Hyde's dedication of the Holy Land for the gathering of Israel on October 24, 1941.  

I just perused his entire dedicatory prayer and I didn’t see any mention of the return of the lost tribes from the North. 

2 hours ago, InCognitus said:

Regarding the coming forth of the records of the lost tribes, I just wanted to add that verse 30 (of your quote from D&C 133) may be an indication of their records as part of their "rich treasures".  But that could mean other things too.  I'm just trying to leave the options open.

I agree that the scriptures of the lost tribes is likely among the treasures spoke of here. 

[Hamilton Porter]

I'm looking forward to the day "gentiles" who took Lamanite land and don't convert are all killed and Lamanites get their land back 

https://archive.org/details/pdfy-pfKehmZYZ4d6yse1/mode/1up

https://academic.oup.com/book/38717/chapter-abstract/336896071?redirectedFrom=fulltext

Edited March 30, 2023 by Hamilton Porter

[Grug the Neanderthal]

9 minutes ago, Hamilton Porter said:

I'm looking forward to the day "gentiles" who took Lamanite land and don't convert are all killed and Lamanites get their land back 

https://archive.org/details/pdfy-pfKehmZYZ4d6yse1/mode/1up

https://academic.oup.com/book/38717/chapter-abstract/336896071?redirectedFrom=fulltext

There aren’t any “gentiles” alive today who took “Lamanite land."

[Hamilton Porter]

17 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

There aren’t any “gentiles” alive today who took “Lamanite land."

So who was Jesus talking about when he said the remnant of Jacob will go like a lion among the gentiles there could be none to deliver?

[Grug the Neanderthal]

25 minutes ago, Hamilton Porter said:

So who was Jesus talking about when he said the remnant of Jacob will go like a lion among the gentiles there could be none to deliver?

Not “Lamanites” killing "gentiles who took their land," since neither of these are alive today. 

There were descendants of Lamanites who were driven off of their land or conquered by European gentiles by the hand of God beginning in the late 1400s and ending around 1900. 

And today there are descendants of both groups of people, many of whom have since intermarried with each other, especially in South America, Central America, and the Caribbean.