Diversity of this forum

[Navidad]

On 3/24/2023 at 8:27 AM, Grug the Neanderthal said:

He was just some fair and opened minded individual open to all kinds of viewpoints and teachings?

At one point of time in this conversation you asked what could be learned from non-LDS Christians that could not also be learned from within Scriptures and the LDS-Christian faith. Of course the intended answer from a question like that is probably "nothing." 

I have thought about it for a few days and would like to offer you an answer, drawing from my own experience of spending six years in an LDS ward and community and years before that around Mormon historians. It might be a confusing answer because it is filled with yes's and no's. I would suggest that the two are complementary, not oppositional in any way. I have also spent some considerable time with Mormon fundamentalists-members of several non-LDS Mormon groups and those who are not particularly religious (by their own admission) within those communities. I also speak regularly about Mormon, Mennonite, Catholic, and Pentecostal history here in Mexico. In so doing I regularly interact with them to learn as much as I can in order to speak about them accurately.

I speak to those who want to learn more about each and to those who have to learn more about each in order to pass a class and obtain a credential here in Mexico. Add in tourist groups (both LDS, Mennonite, and not) and family reunions (LDS) and I have a busy schedule. Of course I also spend hours suffering  err. . . . enjoying and learning on this forum. I guess in that sense, I am part of its diversity. Bottom line, I spend the vast majority of time with those of a faith expression that is not my own. Sometimes very close . . . sometimes different . . . but rarely quite exactly the same. For all of this:

Is my personal faith stronger?  No, not in the sense of more certain.

Is my personal faith weaker? No, not in the sense of less certain (I have never really valued certainty as a gift or fruit of the spirit).

Is my personal faith richer? Yes.

Has my personal faith been challenged? Not in any ways, except where it should have been!

Do I now see other faiths, especially the LDS and Mormon fundamentalists differently? Yes! Radically different.

Is that good? Yes. Radically good.

Have I learned more about the other faiths? Yes, much much more.

Is my personal faith richer, for that? Yes.

Is my personal faith stronger? Yes, especially as a result of having to study why I believe what I believe. I would differentiate that from "certain."

Have I enriched my circle of Christian friends? Yes. Yes. Yes.

Is that a good thing? Yes. Yes. Yes.

Do I often feel like an outsider? Yes.

Is that good? I am not sure. I struggle with being constantly on the edge of inside. That is why I love being home.

Would I do it all over again? Yes, but I would react differently to some of the stresses that end up being lessons.

Am I more certain about the validity of the Christianity of Catholics, Pentecostals, LDS members? Yes because I am more aware that each comes to Christ as an individual and is a Christian by virtue of their personal faith and commitment.

Am I more certain that adherence to a specific church is not what makes or maintains someone's Christianity? Yes

I don't want to go on. It's past time to hit Submit Reply. Are there things that can be learned from other forms, expressions, and systems of belief within Christianity? Yes

Does that make me lukewarm, wishy-washy, or post-modern? No.

Does that make me a better Christian? Amen and Amen! Might it make you, or any of us here on this forum a better and more complete Christian? Amen and Amen again!
 

 

 

Edited March 26, 2023 by Navidad

[Okrahomer]

9 hours ago, Navidad said:

I once heard a sacrament talk about humility using quotes from him on the subject.

It might have been this talk talk from the Priesthood Session of the 2010 October General Conference.  He made the following comment which drew a huge laugh:

”Every mortal has at least a casual if not intimate relationship with the sin of pride. No one has avoided it; few overcome it. When I told my wife that this would be the topic of my talk, she smiled and said, “It is so good that you talk about things you know so much about.”

And thank you for sharing the Mennonite hymn.  While I am no expert, I love opportunities to speak or read German.  I served a mission to North Germany…”back when dinosaurs ruled the earth”.  

I have always appreciated how the German language sometimes creates meaningful relationships between words like “Demut” (humility); “Hochmut” (pride); and “Entmut” (discouragement).  The meaning of the root (“Mut”) is Courage.  

I’ve long thought there is a lesson in the lexical interplay.  I haven’t been able to work it out yet, but I think it has to do with having Courage to choose one feeling over another.  Thank you, Brother Navidad, for the enlightening things you always share with us here!

Edited March 26, 2023 by Okrahomer

[Smiley McGee]

2 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I think he was just trying to be snarky

It’s an invitation for some banter, Grug. Nothing I wouldn’t say to my brother or friends when they say something dumb. We all have at least a mild social media addiction to this forum; best not to exacerbate the problem by taking ourselves too seriously. 

[california boy]

14 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Traditionally the vast majority of Christians accepted pretty much all Catholics, Protestants, and Eastern Orthodox to be Christians and part of the church or body of Christ, while rejecting Mormons as Christians. They reject the Book of Mormon, the revelations in the D&C, and the ordinances of the temple. 

Within the United States the Holy Trinity is almost universally accepted and the idea of faith without works is extremely popular among Christians.

And of course the United States and the rest of the once predominantly Christian world has become largely secular. Most people, including a large number of so-called Christians believe that it’s okay to do all sorts of things that are contrary to the gospel of Jesus Christ, like watching worldly tv shows and movies or listening to worldly music that depicts immoral and sinful lifestyles as normal and acceptable, partying, getting drunk or doing drugs, dressing immodestly, wearing costly apparel, engaging in premarital sex, and having elective abortions. Support for LGBTQ lifestyles, including sex is also rapidly growing and at an all time high. 

Is all you did is list several religion, NONE of which fit what you were talking about.  This is actually what you said

Quote

 

If people are being upheld by the majority as have the true and correct teachings or views, then the odds are extremely high that they are in error, and those who are unwavering in proclaiming or defending the truth will almost always be rejected and disdained by the majority. 

 

Which one of those religions do the majority of people believe have the true and correct teachings???  

[Teancum]

12 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

But you say there is a chance.

Sure.  About as much chance as leprechauns being real.

[InCognitus]

5 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I asked you this question earlier, but you didn’t give a clear answer: 

As for sectarian Christianity, what truths do you expect to find from then that you can’t find in the standard works or the restored gospel from the true and living church?

I thought I did answer this.  Specifically to what I "expect to find" in other denominations that I can't find in the standard works or the restored gospel, I can't really answer that because I don't know what we may find.  But I do know that Joseph Smith didn't limit his scope to truths found only within the standard works or the restored gospel, and he specifically said it is more than what is found in the Bible (i.e. "anywhere else").  If we are closed minded about limiting truths to those found in the standard works or the restored gospel, we will not be prepared to recognize the new truths when they are made evident. 

But I will speculate a bit.  At some point we expect to find records from the tribes of Israel that were scattered abroad.  What if those are recovered and come to us by way of other Christian denominations?  

Also, the question of there being truths outside the restored gospel is circular reasoning to some extent, since Joseph Smith defined "Mormonism" as embracing all truth wherever it is found.  So by definition the restored gospel encompasses all truth, but it may not originate from within our organization.

[Pyreaux]

*cough*Book of Tobit*cough*Book of Enoch*cough*Joseph & Aseneth*cough*Gospel of James*cough*Gospel of Philip*cough*

Edited March 26, 2023 by Pyreaux

[Grug the Neanderthal]

4 hours ago, Smiley McGee said:

It’s an invitation for some banter, Grug. Nothing I wouldn’t say to my brother or friends when they say something dumb. We all have at least a mild social media addiction to this forum; best not to exacerbate the problem by taking ourselves too seriously. 

Fair enough. I didn’t realize you just wanted to banter. In that case, can you please recommend a tiny fundamentalist group that you believe has the truth that I should investigate?

[Grug the Neanderthal]

5 hours ago, Navidad said:

At one point of time in this conversation you asked what could be learned from non-LDS Christians that could not also be learned from within Scriptures and the LDS-Christian faith. Of course the intended answer from a question like that is probably "nothing." 

I have thought about it for a few days and would like to offer you an answer, drawing from my own experience of spending six years in an LDS ward and community and years before that around Mormon historians. It might be a confusing answer because it is filled with yes's and no's. I would suggest that the two are complementary, not oppositional in any way. I have also spent some considerable time with Mormon fundamentalists-members of several non-LDS Mormon groups and those who are not particularly religious (by their own admission) within those communities. I also speak regularly about Mormon, Mennonite, Catholic, and Pentecostal history here in Mexico. In so doing I regularly interact with them to learn as much as I can in order to speak about them accurately.

I speak to those who want to learn more about each and to those who have to learn more about each in order to pass a class and obtain a credential here in Mexico. Add in tourist groups (both LDS, Mennonite, and not) and family reunions (LDS) and I have a busy schedule. Of course I also spend hours suffering  err. . . . enjoying and learning on this forum. I guess in that sense, I am part of its diversity. Bottom line, I spend the vast majority of time with those of a faith expression that is not my own. Sometimes very close . . . sometimes different . . . but rarely quite exactly the same. For all of this:

Is my personal faith stronger?  No, not in the sense of more certain.

Is my personal faith weaker? No, not in the sense of less certain (I have never really valued certainty as a gift or fruit of the spirit).

Is my personal faith richer? Yes.

Has my personal faith been challenged? Not in any ways, except where it should have been!

Do I now see other faiths, especially the LDS and Mormon fundamentalists differently? Yes! Radically different.

Is that good? Yes. Radically good.

Have I learned more about the other faiths? Yes, much much more.

Is my personal faith richer, for that? Yes.

Is my personal faith stronger? Yes, especially as a result of having to study why I believe what I believe. I would differentiate that from "certain."

Have I enriched my circle of Christian friends? Yes. Yes. Yes.

Is that a good thing? Yes. Yes. Yes.

Do I often feel like an outsider? Yes.

Is that good? I am not sure. I struggle with being constantly on the edge of inside. That is why I love being home.

Would I do it all over again? Yes, but I would react differently to some of the stresses that end up being lessons.

Am I more certain about the validity of the Christianity of Catholics, Pentecostals, LDS members? Yes because I am more aware that each comes to Christ as an individual and is a Christian by virtue of their personal faith and commitment.

Am I more certain that adherence to a specific church is not what makes or maintains someone's Christianity? Yes

I don't want to go on. It's past time to hit Submit Reply. Are there things that can be learned from other forms, expressions, and systems of belief within Christianity? Yes

Does that make me lukewarm, wishy-washy, or post-modern? No.

Does that make me a better Christian? Amen and Amen! Might it make you, or any of us here on this forum a better and more complete Christian? Amen and Amen again!

I agree that we can find goodness in other Christians and even non-Christians and that this might give us perspective and make us better followers of Christ ourselves. 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

39 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

I will speculate a bit.  At some point we expect to find records from the tribes of Israel that were scattered abroad.  What if those are recovered and come to us by way of other Christian denominations?

I consider this to be highly unlikely, considering who is responsible for finding the lost tribes and restoring them to the house of Israel. 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

3 hours ago, california boy said:

Is all you did is list several religion, NONE of which fit what you were talking about.  This is actually what you said

Which one of those religions do the majority of people believe have the true and correct teachings???  

I suggest you read my response again. The answer is there.

[InCognitus]

1 hour ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I consider this to be highly unlikely, considering who is responsible for finding the lost tribes and restoring them to the house of Israel. 

But this is the whole point.  Where are we finding the lost tribes?  They are being recovered from the nations, which also includes the Christian denominations of the world.  Are we going to say, "Yes, you can join our church, but forget those weird records that you have.  We don't need those because truth only comes from the restored gospel".  That would be a really dumb attitude, especially given where Joseph Smith said we should be looking for truth.

Edited March 26, 2023 by InCognitus

[Grug the Neanderthal]

1 hour ago, InCognitus said:

But this is the whole point.  Where are we finding the lost tribes?  They are being recovered from the nations, which also includes the Christian denominations of the world.  Are we going to say, "Yes, you can join our church, but forget those weird records that you have.  We don't need those because truth only comes from the restored gospel".  That would be a really dumb attitude, especially given where Joseph Smith said we should be looking for truth.

I think that your understanding of the gathering of the lost 10 tribes is not completely accurate. I think that the majority of the lost 10 tribes are currently together in one location hidden from the world and that in a future day they will all be gathered at once with their records.

The gathering that has been going on thus far is the gathering of the remnant of Joseph, which is the tribe of Ephraim, who was scattered among the nations, and some of Manasseh, who are descendants of the Lamanites. While a few members of other tribes are occasionally also found mixed among the nations, this is rare. The main body of these other 10 tribes has yet to be found or gathered. They remain hidden from the world and the church for now. 

Please see D&C 133 to start. I can share more references, too. 

[Rain]

4 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I think that your understanding of the gathering of the lost 10 tribes is not completely accurate. I think that the majority of the lost 10 tribes are currently together in one location hidden from the world and that in a future day they will all be gathered at once with their records.

The gathering that has been going on thus far is the gathering of the remnant of Joseph, which is the tribe of Ephraim, who was scattered among the nations, and some of Manasseh, who are descendants of the Lamanites. While a few members of other tribes are occasionally also found mixed among the nations, this is rare. The main body of these other 10 tribes has yet to be found or gathered. They remain hidden from the world and the church for now. 

Please see D&C 133 to start. I can share more references, too. 

My work in refugee work and the attention that the church is giving to it makes me think this isn't true. Especially when you start looking at history of Israel and surrounding areas and see how often people were taken away from there and scattered. 

[The Nehor]

32 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I think that your understanding of the gathering of the lost 10 tribes is not completely accurate. I think that the majority of the lost 10 tribes are currently together in one location hidden from the world and that in a future day they will all be gathered at once with their records.

The gathering that has been going on thus far is the gathering of the remnant of Joseph, which is the tribe of Ephraim, who was scattered among the nations, and some of Manasseh, who are descendants of the Lamanites. While a few members of other tribes are occasionally also found mixed among the nations, this is rare. The main body of these other 10 tribes has yet to be found or gathered. They remain hidden from the world and the church for now. 

Please see D&C 133 to start. I can share more references, too. 

Is this some of that old-timey “they are hiding underground” thing?

[InCognitus]

21 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I think that your understanding of the gathering of the lost 10 tribes is not completely accurate. I think that the majority of the lost 10 tribes are currently together in one location hidden from the world and that in a future day they will all be gathered at once with their records.

The gathering that has been going on thus far is the gathering of the remnant of Joseph, which is the tribe of Ephraim, who was scattered among the nations, and some of Manasseh, who are descendants of the Lamanites. While a few members of other tribes are occasionally also found mixed among the nations, this is rare. The main body of these other 10 tribes has yet to be found or gathered. They remain hidden from the world and the church for now. 

Please see D&C 133 to start. I can share more references, too. 

Doctrine and Covenants section 133 is why I was saying it is happening now and in the way I described, and no, it's not just the remnant of Joseph which is the tribe of Ephraim.   Verses 8-16 (of section 133) describe the gathering process that is happening right now.  And verses 17-35 describe the events that occur when Jesus returns and all the nations of the earth become one.

Did you happen to watch or read the 2018 Worldwide Devotional for Youth, where President Nelson and his wife, Wendy, spoke to the youth?  There's a full transcript at this site.   

Sister Nelson recounted an experience she had on June 15, 2013, when she and President Nelson were in meetings at Moscow, Russia.  In that little gathering of Saints she said there were representatives from every tribe of Israel in attendance. 

And President Nelson said:  

Quote

Just think of the excitement and urgency of it all: Every prophet commencing with Adam has seen our day. And every prophet has talked about our day, when Israel would be gathered and the world would be prepared for the Second Coming of the Savior. Think of it! Of all the people who have ever lived on planet earth, we are the ones who get to participate in this final, great gathering event. How exciting is that!

Our Heavenly Father has reserved many of His most noble spirits--perhaps, I might say, His finest team--for this final phase. Those noble spirits--those finest players, those heroes--are you!

I testify that the gathering is now, and it is real.

This is happening here and now, we need to participate and be prepared for what will be made known.  

[california boy]

3 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I suggest you read my response again. The answer is there.

Ah no it is not.  You made this claim.

Quote

 

If people are being upheld by the majority as have the true and correct teachings or views, then the odds are extremely high that they are in error, and those who are unwavering in proclaiming or defending the truth will almost always be rejected and disdained by the majority.

None of those religions you mentioned do the majority of the world believe have true and correct teachings of God.  There is not a single religion that fits your description.  They all think they have the truth of God, just like the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints claims.  Instead you give a weasel answer that does not fit what you claimed.  

And then you whine while people give you a downvote.  Perhaps it is because you are not honest in being able to back up some of the BS that you just throw out there.

 

[manol]

On 3/26/2023 at 3:03 PM, InCognitus said:

Also, the question of there being truths outside the restored gospel is circular reasoning to some extent, since Joseph Smith defined "Mormonism" as embracing all truth wherever it is found.  So by definition the restored gospel encompasses all truth, but it may not originate from within our organization. [emphasis Manol's]

Yes!!

Imo the popularity or unpopularity of a teaching is neither a reliable nor useful metric for judging its value. Imo a vastly better metric would be our soul's reaction to the teaching once we've given it a fair chance, as indicated in Alma Chapter 32.

@Grug the Neanderthal, you asked about small fundamentalist groups.  One fundamentalist group you might resonate with is the True and Living Church of Jesus Christ of Saints of the Last Days. My perception is that a lot of their beliefs trace back to Brigham Young and the early Utah Valley era. They believe in the Adam-God theory, among other things. They gained some notoriety a few years back by engaging in prayer circles in their homes. They have a website that is easy to find.

The most interesting “offshoot” I have encountered is the writings of Joseph John (“JJ”) Dewey, who has new teachings which do not trace back to Joseph Smith or Brigham Young. His book “The Molecular Relationship” comes to mind: Following the pattern of atoms combining to form a molecule whose characteristics far transcend those of the individual atoms, he proposes that our next evolutionary stage will be individuals uniting as a group-entity whose characteristics likewise far transcend their individual selves. His book analyzing the Book of Revelation, entitled “The Unveiling”, is the best I have read on the subject. Briefly, he shows how the Book of Revelation is a description and explanation of the developmental path of the sincere disciple of Christ.

It has been too many years (and too many paradigm shifts) since I read a translation of the Nag Hamadi scrolls, but such might contain valuable teachings. Imo the Tao te Ching is good stuff. But I must confess that I'm more interested in recent transformational books, such as "A Course in Miracles", than in ancient ones.

Imo one of the greatest modern sources of “greater light and knowledge” is the virtual deluge of near-death experience accounts made possible largely by modern medicine. No previous generation had access to remotely near as much information about “the other side”, especially now with YouTube offering free access to first-person narratives.  Here is a YouTube channel with many NDE compilation videos arranged by topic:  NDE Compilations - YouTube 

Edit:  Many additional compilations on this YouTube channel:  NDEs - Near Death Experiences - YouTube

And here's a single video with 150 short clips from a wide range of near-death experiences:  NDE COMPILATION - 150 QUOTES FROM HEAVEN - YouTube

And if you want to watch just one person's complete experience instead of short clips in compilations there are hundreds such out there, here's one that spoke to me:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8lQs1MccoU&t=145s

 

Edited March 27, 2023 by manol

[Grug the Neanderthal]

11 hours ago, california boy said:

This is actually what you said

Quote

 

If people are being upheld by the majority as have the true and correct teachings or views, then the odds are extremely high that they are in error, and those who are unwavering in proclaiming or defending the truth will almost always be rejected and disdained by the majority. 

 

Which one of those religions do the majority of people believe have the true and correct teachings???

4 hours ago, california boy said:

None of those religions you mentioned do the majority of the world believe have true and correct teachings of God.  There is not a single religion that fits your description.

4 hours ago, california boy said:

Instead you give a weasel answer that does not fit what you claimed.  

4 hours ago, california boy said:

you are not honest in being able to back up some of the BS that you just throw out there.

You’re funny California Boy. You twist my words and set up a straw man argument. You claimed that I said that there was a single religious denomination that the majority of the world believes has the true and correct teachings. I never claimed anything even remotely like this.

Then when I give  you an answer that ignores the straw man, but supports what I actually said you completely ignore my answer and instead accuse me of "giving a weasel answer," “being dishonest,” and “just throwing out BS that I can’t support." 

You’re too much!

 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

3 hours ago, manol said:

 

@Grug the Neanderthal, you asked about small fundamentalist groups.  One fundamentalist group you might resonate with is the True and Living Church of Jesus Christ of Saints of the Last Days. My perception is that a lot of their beliefs trace back to Brigham Young and the early Utah Valley era. They believe in the Adam-God theory, among other things. They gained some notoriety a few years back by engaging in prayer circles in their homes. They have a website that is easy to find.

The most interesting “offshoot” I have encountered is the writings of Joseph John (“JJ”) Dewey, who has new teachings which do not trace back to Joseph Smith or Brigham Young. His book “The Molecular Relationship” comes to mind: Following the pattern of atoms combining to form a molecule whose characteristics far transcend those of the individual atoms, he proposes that our next evolutionary stage will be individuals uniting as a group-entity whose characteristics likewise far transcend their individual selves. His book analyzing the Book of Revelation, entitled “The Unveiling”, is the best I have read on the subject. Briefly, he shows how the Book of Revelation is a description and explanation of the developmental path of the sincere disciple of Christ.

I read Dewey's paper about what led to him leaving the church and some stuff from his website several years ago and found it interesting. 

As far as fundamentalist groups go, I have explored quite a few of them, including the one you mentioned. Out of the groups I have looked at, I find the Peterson Group (Righteous Branch of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day  Saints) to be the most intriguing. However, I don’t believe their authority claims. 

I believe that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord’s one true and living church upon the earth, even though I have concerns over the church abandoning or changing previous teachings, changing the ordinances, and becoming too popular with Babylon. 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

6 hours ago, InCognitus said:

Doctrine and Covenants section 133 is why I was saying it is happening now and in the way I described, and no, it's not just the remnant of Joseph which is the tribe of Ephraim.   Verses 8-16 (of section 133) describe the gathering process that is happening right now.  And verses 17-35 describe the events that occur when Jesus returns and all the nations of the earth become one.

Verse 8-16 don’t say anything about the Lost 10 tribes being gathered at this time. This happens beginning in verse 26. Which is after the following events happen:

20 For behold, [Jesus Christ] shall stand upon the mount of Olivet, and upon the mighty ocean, even the great deep, and upon the islands of the sea, and upon the land of Zion.
21 And he shall utter his voice out of Zion, and he shall speak from Jerusalem, and his voice shall be heard among all people;
22 And it shall be a voice as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder, which shall break down the mountains, and the valleys shall not be found.
23 He shall command the great deep, and it shall be driven back into the north countries, and the islands shall become one land;
24 And the land of Jerusalem and the land of Zion shall be turned back into their own place, and the earth shall be like as it was in the days before it was divided.
25 And the Lord, even the Savior, shall stand in the midst of his people, and shall reign over all flesh.

Then the lost the 10 tribes will return:

26 And they who are in the north countries shall come in remembrance before the Lord; and their prophets shall hear his voice, and shall no longer stay themselves; and they shall smite the rocks, and the ice shall flow down at their presence.
27 And an highway shall be cast up in the midst of the great deep.
28 Their enemies shall become a prey unto them,
29 And in the barren deserts there shall come forth pools of living water; and the parched ground shall no longer be a thirsty land.
30 And they shall bring forth their rich treasures unto the children of Ephraim, my servants.
31 And the boundaries of the everlasting hills shall tremble at their presence.
32 And there shall they fall down and be crowned with glory, even in Zion, by the hands of the servants of the Lord, even the children of Ephraim.
33 And they shall be filled with songs of everlasting joy.
34 Behold, this is the blessing of the everlasting God upon the tribes of Israel, and the richer blessing upon the head of Ephraim and his fellows.

 

Edited March 27, 2023 by Grug the Neanderthal

[Navidad]

12 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I read Dewey's paper about what led to him leaving the church and some stuff from his website several years ago and found it interesting. 

As far as fundamentalist groups go, I have explored quite a few of them, including the one you mentioned. Out of the groups I have looked at, I find the Peterson Group (Righteous Branch of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day  Saints) to be the most intriguing. However, I don’t believe their authority claims. 

I believe that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord’s one true and living church upon the earth, even though I have concerns over the church abandoning or changing previous teachings, changing the ordinances, and becoming too popular with Babylon. 

In the whatever it is worth category . . . I would cautiously suggest that you might consider narrowing your definition of Babylon. I grew up in a fascinating form of independent fundamentalist-Mennonite-Plymouth Brethren beliefs that was every bit as much cultural as it was doctrinal. Of course no one acknowledged the cultural part at that time. Everything was doctrinal. Everything and everyone. Our whole world view was doctrinally based. It was doctrine bordering on dogma. 

Anyone or any group who wasn't us was the world - the other - Babylon (literally). I didn't have many friends who weren't us and certainly no girlfriends who weren't us. It was a prophetic (read apocalyptic)-based doctrine focused on Darby Dispensationalism. If we had a prophet - it was John Darby. We didn't and he wasn't, but certainly it seemed that way sometimes. The Catholic Church was sometimes presented as the arch epitome of Babylon, but yet it (Babylon) was much more at the same time.

I still believe in a Babylon (metaphorically). But Babylon is no longer for me that which isn't me. Babylon isn't the world anymore. Babylon isn't the other. Catholics are no longer, and never were the residents of Babylon.

Today for me, Babylon is more an internal battle than external. Babylon is best summarized by one of my favorite words as a child. I always hoped I would get that word in a spelling bee at school and shine! It was concupiscence. It is a word used several times in the New Testament (Romans, Colossians, I Thess.) . It is a lust for something that can overcome my desire for piety, Christ-likeness, holiness, spirituality, and keeping commitments I have made to those important to me. Concupiscence is Babylon. While it has an external reality, I am driven to it by internal need. Certainty, pride, absolutism, onlyism, normalizing, generalizing, and dehumanizing those who aren't me are a form of Babylon and they are all found within me.

What I need to need is more of Christ and His Holy Spirit. I need the perfect balance of the Father - mercy and righteousness. Those are what will keep me away from Babylon which has nothing to do with those who aren't me, or who don't believe like me.

From my own experience (which it seems your concept of your own doctrine won't allow you to value because I am not from your concept of Zion) I would simply offer that bit of wisdom. Babylon is within us. It evidences itself in different ways in each of us, in our humanity. That is one of my own life's lessons. I simply share it with you, for whatever it is worth. Grace and Peace . . .

Edited March 27, 2023 by Navidad

[Navidad]

I must admit that this whole LDS concept of the gathering of the Lost tribes of Israel is new to me. I have look all over online, including LDS official sites and find nothing that helps me understand it. Can anyone recommend an article, monograph, or book that explains the LDS concept of their relationship with the lost tribes of Israel. Is it a form or precursor of Armstrongism, another restorationist movement? At any rate, I want to learn more. I need sources! Thanks.

[CA Steve]

7 hours ago, Navidad said:

I must admit that this whole LDS concept of the gathering of the Lost tribes of Israel is new to me. I have look all over online, including LDS official sites and find nothing that helps me understand it. Can anyone recommend an article, monograph, or book that explains the LDS concept of their relationship with the lost tribes of Israel. Is it a form or precursor of Armstrongism, another restorationist movement? At any rate, I want to learn more. I need sources! Thanks.

I don't have any references offhand that deal exclusively with that subject but Joseph Smith founded Mormonism as a restorationist movement.  The concept of the gathering of Israel permeates throughout Mormonism. The Book of Mormon itself was written to the Lamanites who are part of the tribes of Israel and that gathering. God commanded Nephi to kill a passed out defenseless Laben with his own sword in order to get a set of brass plates with Lehi's genealogy on them; saying "It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief." That nation would be the Lamanites and Nephites. Our 10th article of faith states:

Quote

We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

Members who receive their patriarchal blessing are told that they are from a specific Lost Tribe. Mine tells me I am from Ephraim, as do most others. Early members believed this was literal and part of the gathering. From 1947 to 2000, the church sponsored a program called the Mormon Indian Student Placement Program where native American Indian youth were placed in the homes of white LDS members to ostensibly give them greater educational opportunities. It is, in my opinion, foundational to the Book of Mormon and, by extension, to Mormonism. 

Edited March 27, 2023 by CA Steve
To clairfy that the Lamanites are not part of the "Lost Ten Tribes"

[InCognitus]

4 hours ago, Navidad said:

I must admit that this whole LDS concept of the gathering of the Lost tribes of Israel is new to me. I have look all over online, including LDS official sites and find nothing that helps me understand it. Can anyone recommend an article, monograph, or book that explains the LDS concept of their relationship with the lost tribes of Israel. Is it a form or precursor of Armstrongism, another restorationist movement? At any rate, I want to learn more. I need sources! Thanks.

This link provides verses to back up each of the portions covered:   https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/new-era/2019/07/12-facts-about-the-gathering-of-israel?lang=eng

12 Facts about the Gathering of Israel

Quote

The Covenant

1. God made a covenant with Abraham, promising him that:

   1. He would have numerous posterity (see Genesis 17:4–7).

   2. His seed would have the gospel and the priesthood (see Abraham 1:18).

   3. All the earth would be blessed through his seed (see Genesis 18:18).

2. This covenant was passed down through Abraham’s son Isaac and Isaac’s son Jacob, who was also called Israel, (see Genesis 26:3–4; 28:13–15).

   1. Israel had 12 sons: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Zebulun, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Joseph, and Benjamin (see Genesis 29–30).

   2. The 12 sons moved to Egypt where their descendants formed 12 tribes who were eventually enslaved (see Genesis 49).

   3. The 12 tribes followed Moses out of Egypt and received the Lord’s law, priesthood, covenants, and ordinances, and later inherited a promised land (see Exodus 12–13).

3. Ultimately, the Abrahamic covenant also includes temple ordinances, which allow us to inherit eternal life with Heavenly Father and be sealed to our families forever (see Abraham 2:6–11).

The Scattering

4. Ancient prophets, including Moses, foretold the scattering of Israel (see Deuteronomy 4:27; 28:64).

5. Because they were unrighteous, rebelled, and killed the prophets, the Lord punished Israel and scattered them, placing Abraham’s seed throughout the earth.

   1. Israel split into the northern and southern kingdoms (see 1 Kings 12:20–21), and in 721 BC, the 10 northern tribes of Israel were carried captive to Assyria and then were scattered and lost.

   2. The remaining Israelites, mostly from the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, swung back and forth between righteousness and wickedness.

   3. In 605 BC and again in 597 BC, Israelites were carried captive from Jerusalem to Babylon (see 2 Chronicles 36).

   4. In 537 BC, Cyrus of Persia, who had conquered Babylon, allowed them to return (see Ezra 1:2–3).

   5. In AD 70 and again in AD 135, the Romans destroyed Jerusalem, scattering the Jews among all nations.

The Gathering

6. Both ancient and modern prophets, from Enoch to Joseph Smith, have foretold that the Lord’s covenant people would be gathered again in a future day—first spiritually and then temporally (see 1 Nephi 15:12–16; 19:16).

7. The gathering is a prelude to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ (see Moses 7:61–65).

8. The gathering is part of the Restoration and has priesthood keys associated with it, which were restored when Moses delivered them to Joseph Smith (see D&C 110:11).

9. Though the Lord’s people may sometimes be asked to gather to a particular place, people today generally are gathered when they accept the gospel, receive ordinances, and make covenants (see Doctrine and Covenants 84:2).

10. All people can be gathered to Israel, either by direct descent or by adoption, which happens when they are baptized and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

11. Those who have been baptized can later receive a patriarchal blessing, which declares their lineage in a tribe of Israel.

12. The Book of Mormon is written to “the remnant of the house of Israel” and to “the Jew and Gentile” (Book of Mormon title page) and is a sign that God is fulfilling His covenant to gather Israel in the last days (see 3 Nephi 21), as well as a major instrument of that gathering.

 

Edited March 27, 2023 by InCognitus