Diversity of this forum

[Orthodox Christian]

Good morning to you all. Well the OP brought to mind an event from my childhood. Our headmaster was a very moral and upstanding man who would not let any form of anti social behaviour go unaddressed. There had been a spate of minor thefts in the school, so the head responded by bringing the school into assembly and condemned theft however great or small. He invited the guilty person(s) to own up or at least return the items by leaving them somewhere anonymously or else he would call in the police. Whilst being shamed and terrorised by this, my thought was that I hoped no one thought it was me, and I cautiously cast my eyes around looking for anyone who looked guilty, or at least uncomfortable and red in the face. This kind of oblique post took me straight back to that moment. So, if I have offended or hurt anyone,I sincerely apologise and beg your pardon and ask for forgiveness as it was never my intention. 

[InCognitus]

14 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

Good morning to you all. Well the OP brought to mind an event from my childhood. Our headmaster was a very moral and upstanding man who would not let any form of anti social behaviour go unaddressed. There had been a spate of minor thefts in the school, so the head responded by bringing the school into assembly and condemned theft however great or small. He invited the guilty person(s) to own up or at least return the items by leaving them somewhere anonymously or else he would call in the police. Whilst being shamed and terrorised by this, my thought was that I hoped no one thought it was me, and I cautiously cast my eyes around looking for anyone who looked guilty, or at least uncomfortable and red in the face. This kind of oblique post took me straight back to that moment. So, if I have offended or hurt anyone,I sincerely apologise and beg your pardon and ask for forgiveness as it was never my intention. 

You have offended me, because you didn't finish the story! .  (I'm kidding of course).  You can't tell a story like that without revealing the outcome.  Who did it?  Or did anyone put up the stolen items?  How did it turn out?

[Orthodox Christian]

6 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

You have offended me, because you didn't finish the story! .  (I'm kidding of course).  You can't tell a story like that without revealing the outcome.  Who did it?  Or did anyone put up the stolen items?  How did it turn out?

Ha ha, well  the headmaster was a kind man, so if anyone did come forward and confess it was kept confidential, there was no public shaming. I never knew if the items were returned either. So the ending is a bit of a disappointment except to say that we had an excellent head teacher under whose guidance our school was excellent. We all respected him because basically he was kind but had strong values. We were lucky. 

[InCognitus]

22 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

It depends on what he means by the gathering of Israel being now and being real. If he is referring to the preliminary gathering of the tribe of Ephraim, a sizable portion of Manasseh, and a few members of other tribes to stakes throughout the world, then I agree with him. 

If he is referring to the literal gathering of Israel and the restoration of the lost 10 tribes from the North, then no I don’t agree with this. But since he hasn’t specifically said that this is what he means, I don’t think he does.

He does say specifically in the link I provided previously.  This one:  President Russell M. Nelson and Sister Wendy Nelson speak at the Worldwide Devotional for Youth on June 3rd, 2018 (be sure to expand the "Transcript" portion immediately below the video to see the full text in that link).  President Nelson said:

Quote

My dear young brothers and sisters, these surely are the latter days, and the Lord is hastening His work to gather Israel. That gathering is the most important thing taking place on earth today. Nothing else compares in magnitude, nothing else compares in importance, nothing else compares in majesty. And if you choose to, if you want to, you can be a big part of it. You can be a big part of something big, something grand, something majestic! When we speak of the gathering, we are simply saying this fundamental truth: Every one of our Heavenly Father's children, on both sides of the veil, deserves to hear the message of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. They decide for themselves if they want to know more. Those whose lineage is from the various tribes of Israel are those whose hearts will most likely be turned to the Lord. He said, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me." Those who are of the house of Israel will most easily recognize the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior and will desire to be gathered into His fold. They will want to become members of His Church, make covenants with Him and Heavenly Father, and receive their essential ordinances. 

That he is talking about all twelve tribes is evident in the context (which I will quote in a moment).

22 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Another question is about what lineage those who are currently being gathered to various stakes around the world actually come from. Are they mostly literal descendants of Ephraim, Manasseh, and a few from the other tribes? Or are they mostly literal gentiles who are being adopted into the house of Israel?

No, they aren't only descendants of Ephraim, Manasseh, and a few others.  They are from all the tribes of Israel, including the so called "lost" 10 tribes.  This is also evident from the context of the 2018 devotional I posted previously, specifically when Wendy Nelson spoke as follows:

Quote

We often talk about living in the latter days. We are, after all, Latter-day Saints. But perhaps these days are more "latter" than we have ever imagined. This truth became a reality for me because of what I experienced during one 24-hour period of time that commenced on June 15, 2013. My husband and I were in Moscow, Russia. While President Nelson met with priesthood leaders, I had the privilege of meeting with nearly 100 of our sisters. I love our Russian sisters. They are spectacular! When I stepped to the pulpit to speak, I found myself saying something I'd never anticipated. I said to the women, "I'd like to get to know you by lineage. Please stand as the tribe of Israel that represents the lineage declared in your patriarchal blessing is spoken. Benjamin." A couple of women stood. "Dan." A couple more. "Reuben." A few more stood. "Naphtali." More stood. As the names of the twelve tribes of Israel were announced--from Asher to Zebulun--and as the women stood, we were all amazed with what we were witnessing, feeling, and learning. How many of the twelve tribes of Israel do you think were represented in that small gathering of fewer than 100 women on that Saturday in Moscow? Eleven! Eleven of the twelve tribes of Israel were represented in that one room! The only tribe missing was that of Levi. I was astonished. It was a spiritually moving moment for me. Immediately after those meetings, my husband and I went directly to Yerevan, Armenia. The first people we met as we got off the plane were the mission president and his wife. Somehow she had heard about this experience in Moscow, and with great delight, she said, "I've got Levi!"

Just imagine our thrill when my husband and I met their missionaries the next day, including an elder from the tribe of Levi who just happened to be from Gilbert, Arizona. Now, when I was a little girl attending Primary in Raymond, Alberta, Canada, I learned that in the last days--before the Second Coming of the Savior--the twelve tribes of Israel would be gathered. That truth was thrilling to me and, at the same time, quite overwhelming to wrap my mind around. So imagine what it was like for me to be with members of all twelve tribes of Israel within one 24-hour period of time!

The quote I provided from President Nelson, above, followed this talk from Sister Nelson.  So when President Nelson said, "Those whose lineage is from the various tribes of Israel are those whose hearts will most likely be turned to the Lord", he had that context in mind.  And when he said "I testify that the gathering is now, and it is real", he also had Sister Nelson's comments in mind.

And right here in this very forum we have seen evidence of this recently.  About two months ago now, we had a new member post a topic in the Social Hall, with the title:  Patriarchal Blessing - Tribe Designation has very little information?.  The person was a recently baptized member, and had just received their patriarchal blessing and was from the tribe of Simeon (a lost tribe).

So yes, the twelve tribes are being gathered now.  

But there is a distinction between the tribes being "gathered" and their being returned to their own lands.  They are "gathered" now when they are baptized and make covenants with God.  But their return to their lands is a separate and partially a future event.

23 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

On 3/27/2023 at 2:01 PM, InCognitus said:

The discovery of the "lost" tribes and gathering of those tribes is happening now, and it has been happening since the coming forth of the Book of Mormon and the restoration of the keys of the gathering of Israel when Moses appeared and gave those keys to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery on April 3, 1836 (D&C 110), and of Orson Hyde's dedication of the Holy Land for the gathering of Israel on October 24, 1941.  

I just perused his entire dedicatory prayer and I didn’t see any mention of the return of the lost tribes from the North. 

The gathering of Israel encompasses all the tribes, and their return to their lands is a future event (for the most part).  The return from the "north countries" of the ten tribes is simply the reversal of the northern tribes being carried into the north by Assyria:  "In the days of Pekah king of Israel came Tiglath-pileser king of Assyria, and took Ijon, and Abel-beth-maachah, and Janoah, and Kedesh, and Hazor, and Gilead, and Galilee, all the land of Naphtali, and carried them captive to Assyria."  (2 Kings 15:29).  From Assyria they were dispersed and scattered into "all nations".  And it is from all nations that they are being gathered:

"Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be said, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;  But, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers.  Behold, I will send for many fishers, saith the LORD, and they shall fish them; and after will I send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain, and from every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks."  (Jer 16:14-16)

[Grug the Neanderthal]

9 hours ago, InCognitus said:

My dear young brothers and sisters, these surely are the latter days, and the Lord is hastening His work to gather Israel. That gathering is the most important thing taking place on earth today. Nothing else compares in magnitude, nothing else compares in importance, nothing else compares in majesty. And if you choose to, if you want to, you can be a big part of it. You can be a big part of something big, something grand, something majestic! When we speak of the gathering, we are simply saying this fundamental truth: Every one of our Heavenly Father's children, on both sides of the veil, deserves to hear the message of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. They decide for themselves if they want to know more. Those whose lineage is from the various tribes of Israel are those whose hearts will most likely be turned to the Lord. He said, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me." Those who are of the house of Israel will most easily recognize the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior and will desire to be gathered into His fold. They will want to become members of His Church, make covenants with Him and Heavenly Father, and receive their essential ordinances. 

9 hours ago, InCognitus said:

We often talk about living in the latter days. We are, after all, Latter-day Saints. But perhaps these days are more "latter" than we have ever imagined. This truth became a reality for me because of what I experienced during one 24-hour period of time that commenced on June 15, 2013. My husband and I were in Moscow, Russia. While President Nelson met with priesthood leaders, I had the privilege of meeting with nearly 100 of our sisters. I love our Russian sisters. They are spectacular! When I stepped to the pulpit to speak, I found myself saying something I'd never anticipated. I said to the women, "I'd like to get to know you by lineage. Please stand as the tribe of Israel that represents the lineage declared in your patriarchal blessing is spoken. Benjamin." A couple of women stood. "Dan." A couple more. "Reuben." A few more stood. "Naphtali." More stood. As the names of the twelve tribes of Israel were announced--from Asher to Zebulun--and as the women stood, we were all amazed with what we were witnessing, feeling, and learning. How many of the twelve tribes of Israel do you think were represented in that small gathering of fewer than 100 women on that Saturday in Moscow? Eleven! Eleven of the twelve tribes of Israel were represented in that one room! The only tribe missing was that of Levi. I was astonished. It was a spiritually moving moment for me. Immediately after those meetings, my husband and I went directly to Yerevan, Armenia. The first people we met as we got off the plane were the mission president and his wife. Somehow she had heard about this experience in Moscow, and with great delight, she said, "I've got Levi!"

Just imagine our thrill when my husband and I met their missionaries the next day, including an elder from the tribe of Levi who just happened to be from Gilbert, Arizona. Now, when I was a little girl attending Primary in Raymond, Alberta, Canada, I learned that in the last days--before the Second Coming of the Savior--the twelve tribes of Israel would be gathered. That truth was thrilling to me and, at the same time, quite overwhelming to wrap my mind around. So imagine what it was like for me to be with members of all twelve tribes of Israel within one 24-hour period of time!

Neither of these two statements say that the "literal" gathering of Israel and the restoration of the lost 10 tribes from the north is happening right now, versus the tribe of Ephraim, a large portion of Manasseh, and a few members of the other 12 tribes here and there joining the church and being gathered to stakes around the world in preparation for the literal gathering of Israel and the restoration of the lost 10 tribes from the north in the future. 

Nor does either statement say whether those individuals whose patriarchal blessings identify them with a tribe are primarily literal descendants of Israel or primarily gentiles who are being adopted into the house of Israel. 
 

9 hours ago, InCognitus said:

"Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be said, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;  But, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers.  Behold, I will send for many fishers, saith the LORD, and they shall fish them; and after will I send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain, and from every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks."  (Jer 16:14-16)

This is a great scripture about the gathering of Israel. Please note where it says "The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers.” 

Please see D&C 133 for when the lost 10 tribes are gathered to the land of their inheritance from the north countries. 

I’m not contending that what the church is doing today and since 1830 isn’t part of the gathering of Israel, it most certainly is. However, I believe that the scriptures are clear that the “literal” gathering of Israel and the restoration of the lost 10 tribes from the north, is a future event. I believe that currently mostly Ephraim is being found and identified by joining the church in preparation for the tribe of Ephraim to literally gather the lost 10 tribes in the future. I do acknowledge that a few members of all the other tribes are being identified right now, too. 

Edited March 31, 2023 by Grug the Neanderthal

[Hamilton Porter]

On 3/30/2023 at 7:01 AM, Orthodox Christian said:

Good morning to you all. Well the OP brought to mind an event from my childhood. Our headmaster was a very moral and upstanding man who would not let any form of anti social behaviour go unaddressed. There had been a spate of minor thefts in the school, so the head responded by bringing the school into assembly and condemned theft however great or small. He invited the guilty person(s) to own up or at least return the items by leaving them somewhere anonymously or else he would call in the police. Whilst being shamed and terrorised by this, my thought was that I hoped no one thought it was me, and I cautiously cast my eyes around looking for anyone who looked guilty, or at least uncomfortable and red in the face. This kind of oblique post took me straight back to that moment. So, if I have offended or hurt anyone,I sincerely apologise and beg your pardon and ask for forgiveness as it was never my intention. 

I don't understand the point or relevance of your post, but you should contribute more.

[InCognitus]

10 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Neither of these two statements say that the "literal" gathering of Israel and the restoration of the lost 10 tribes from the north is happening right now, versus the tribe of Ephraim, a large portion of Manasseh, and a few members of the other 12 tribes here and there joining the church and being gathered to stakes around the world in preparation for the literal gathering of Israel and the restoration of the lost 10 tribes from the north in the future. 

Nor does either statement say whether those individuals whose patriarchal blessings identify them with a tribe are primarily literal descendants of Israel or primarily gentiles who are being adopted into the house of Israel. 

Have you ever seen a patriarchal blessing that distinguishes between being a literal descendant of a tribe compared to being adopted into a tribe?  Otherwise, how would you know the difference?  And why make the distinction?  (The Lord doesn't make that distinction).  Also, why would anyone be adopted into one of the lost tribes?  And given that Sister Nelson's experience took place in one of the "north" countries (she was in Russia), why are you discounting the possibility that they would be literal descendants of those lost tribes?

Furthermore, in the 2018 devotional for youth, President Nelson said:  

"Every one of our Heavenly Father's children, on both sides of the veil, deserves to hear the message of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. They decide for themselves if they want to know more. Those whose lineage is from the various tribes of Israel are those whose hearts will most likely be turned to the Lord. He said, 'My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.' Those who are of the house of Israel will most easily recognize the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior and will desire to be gathered into His fold."

If President Nelson was talking about Gentiles who are adopted into the House of Israel, then why would he specifically say "Those whose lineage is from the various tribes of Israel are those whose hearts will most likely be turned to the Lord"?  So what is he saying? The missionaries come to the door of a Gentile, and upon seeing the missionaries the Gentile is instantly adopted into the house of Israel and they are therefore more likely to be turned to the Lord?  Of course not.  The "adoption" comes after joining the Church and making covenants with the Lord.  But President Nelson is saying those whose "lineage" is from the various tribes are most likely to be turned to the Lord and will most easily recognize the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior.  There's simply no possible way that I can see that he could be talking about adoption.

10 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I’m not contending that what the church is doing today and since 1830 isn’t part of the gathering of Israel, it most certainly is.

It sounded like you were, previously (or at least I got that impression).

10 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

However, I believe that the scriptures are clear that the “literal” gathering of Israel and the restoration of the lost 10 tribes from the north, is a future event.

And I said the same thing (there will be a literal gathering to their lands that is a future event).  But the gathering of the people into the covenant is happening now (as President Nelson said).

10 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I believe that currently mostly Ephraim is being found and identified by joining the church in preparation for the tribe of Ephraim to literally gather the lost 10 tribes in the future.

The gathering of the tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh was phase 1 in the process.  They were (and are being) gathered first since they are the ones to direct the other tribes in their gathering by taking the gospel to them (i.e. Deuteronomy 33:16-17).  They are "for an ensign, and for the gathering of my people in the last days" (D&C 113:6).  We are taking the gospel to the nations and gathering the tribes of Israel when they enter into the covenants of the Lord.  They are "gathered" into the stakes of Zion when the join the church.  But the return to their lands of inheritance will be at a future date.

[Grug the Neanderthal]

1 hour ago, InCognitus said:

Have you ever seen a patriarchal blessing that distinguishes between being a literal descendant of a tribe compared to being adopted into a tribe?

I don’t go around asking to read people’s patriarchal blessings, so I haven’t seen many. 

1 hour ago, InCognitus said:

And why make the distinction?  (The Lord doesn't make that distinction).

Does the Lord not make this distinction? I would suggest that the allegory of the Olive trees in Jacob 5 shows that he does make a distinction between those who are literally of the house of Israel by lineage and non-Israelite gentiles who are grafted in. 

In this case, understanding whether most members of the church are literally Israelites by blood and or adopted gentiles is important in understanding where we are at and what our role is when it comes to the events of the last days prophesied in the scriptures.

1 hour ago, InCognitus said:

why are you discounting the possibility that they would be literal descendants of those lost tribes?

I’m not discounting this possibility. They could be literal descendants of these tribes, partially descended from these tribes with mixed blood, or non-Israelites who have been adopted into the house of Israel.

1 hour ago, InCognitus said:

But President Nelson is saying those whose "lineage" is from the various tribes are most likely to be turned to the Lord and will most easily recognize the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior.  There's simply no possible way that I can see that he could be talking about adoption.

I think you are making more out of what President Nelson said than what’s there. He did not say that most of the members of the church, let alone those from tribes other than Ephraim and Manasseh, are literal descendants of Israel rather than being adopted.

Could go either way or be some combination of the two scenarios. I think it’s very unlikely that most are pure blooded Israelites. I think it’s much more likely that most are predominantly non-Israelites with differing amounts of Israelite blood mixed in. 

1 hour ago, InCognitus said:

And I said the same thing (there will be a literal gathering to their lands that is a future event).  But the gathering of the people into the covenant is happening now

Yes, people are currently being gathered into the covenant, but this isn’t the literal gathering of Israel. What’s happening now is in preparation of the literal gathering and the return of the lost 10 tribes from the north.

1 hour ago, InCognitus said:

The gathering of the tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh was phase 1 in the process.  They were (and are being) gathered first since they are the ones to direct the other tribes in their gathering by taking the gospel to them

Agreed.

1 hour ago, InCognitus said:

They are "for an ensign, and for the gathering of my people in the last days" (D&C 113:6)

Let’s look at D&C 113:5-6:

5 What is the root of Jesse spoken of in the 10th verse of the 11th chapter?
6 Behold, thus saith the Lord, it is a descendant of Jesse, as well as of Joseph, unto whom rightly belongs the priesthood, and the keys of the kingdom, for an ensign, and for the gathering of my people in the last days.

Verse 6 is referring to a specific last day’s servant, he is the Ensign in this context. He holds the keys of the literal gathering of Israel in the last days and will lead the effort. 

1 hour ago, InCognitus said:

We are taking the gospel to the nations and gathering the tribes of Israel when they enter into the covenants of the Lord.  They are "gathered" into the stakes of Zion when the join the church.

It’s true that we are taking the gospel to the nations and gathering people to stakes around the world, but I don’t believe that this is the main event or that this is the fulfillment of the restoration of the lost 10 tribes from the north. I think this is still coming, per D&C 133 and other scriptures. 

Edited April 1, 2023 by Grug the Neanderthal

[InCognitus]

12 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Does the Lord not make this distinction?

President Nelson from the October 2011 General Conference:  "Some of us are the literal seed of Abraham; others are gathered into his family by adoption. The Lord makes no distinction."  The footnote to that comment is to Acts 10:34-35:

"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:  But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."

14 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I would suggest that the allegory of the Olive trees in Jacob 5 shows that he does make a distinction between those who are literally of the house of Israel by lineage and non-Israelite gentiles who are grafted in. 

In Jacob 5, the Lord of the vineyard grafts in the "wild olive branches" (the Gentiles) to keep the tame olive tree (Israel) from perishing, and I think Jacob 5 proves that the Lord doesn't make the distinction once they are grafted in.  Look at verses 17-18:

"And it came to pass that the Lord of the vineyard looked and beheld the tree in the which the wild olive branches had been grafted; and it had sprung forth and begun to bear fruit. And he beheld that it was good; and the fruit thereof was like unto the natural fruit.  18 And he said unto the servant: Behold, the branches of the wild tree have taken hold of the moisture of the root thereof, that the root thereof hath brought forth much strength; and because of the much strength of the root thereof the wild branches have brought forth tame fruit. Now, if we had not grafted in these branches, the tree thereof would have perished. And now, behold, I shall lay up much fruit, which the tree thereof hath brought forth; and the fruit thereof I shall lay up against the season, unto mine own self."

They are the same, all bringing forth the same fruit.

24 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

In this case, understanding whether most members of the church are literally Israelites by blood and or adopted gentiles is important in understanding where we are at and what our role is when it comes to the events of the last days prophecies in the scriptures.

I'm not sure why you are shifting this conversation to talk about "most members of the church are literally Israelites by blood or adopted gentiles".  I have never said anything about "most members of the church".  I was specifically talking about members of the lost tribes of Israel being "gathered" into the stakes of Zion in preparation for the time when they will return to their own lands.  There's no question that many members of the church become part of Ephraim or Manasseh by adoption, especially since those tribes are the ones who facilitate the gathering of all the other tribes by taking the gospel to the world.   My point is that Israel is being gathered, and it's not only Ephraim and Manasseh.

31 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

1 hour ago, InCognitus said:

But President Nelson is saying those whose "lineage" is from the various tribes are most likely to be turned to the Lord and will most easily recognize the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior.  There's simply no possible way that I can see that he could be talking about adoption.

I think you are making more out of what President Nelson said than what’s there. He did not say that most of the members of the church, let alone those from tribes other than Ephraim and Manasseh, are literal descendants of Israel rather than being adopted.

This goes back to your prior comment.  Why are you shifting this conversation to talk about "most members of the church", or to turn around what President Nelson was saying to be about "most members of the church"?  

President Nelson was talking about gathering Israel now, by having the youth and members of the church doing missionary work to convert those whose lineage is of the tribes of Israel, or by doing work for the dead (to gather those on the other side of the veil).  He said, "Every one of our Heavenly Father's children, on both sides of the veil, deserves to hear the message of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ".  He's talking about taking the gospel to them.  And he says "Those whose lineage is from the various tribes of Israel are those whose hearts will most likely be turned to the Lord".  Why would he say that if he isn't talking about literal descendants of the House of Israel, including those of the lost tribes (related to Sister Nelson's comments)?  How could he possibly be talking about Gentiles who are being adopted there? 

46 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Let’s look at D&C 113:5-6:

5 What is the root of Jesse spoken of in the 10th verse of the 11th chapter?
6 Behold, thus saith the Lord, it is a descendant of Jesse, as well as of Joseph, unto whom rightly belongs the priesthood, and the keys of the kingdom, for an ensign, and for the gathering of my people in the last days.

Verse 6 is referring to a specific last day’s servant, he is the Ensign in this context. He holds the keys of the literal gathering of Israel in the last days and will lead the effort.

And who holds those keys now, and what is he saying about the gathering of Israel?

46 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

It’s true that we are taking the gospel to the nations and gathering people to stakes around the world, but I don’t believe that this is the main event or that this fulfillment of the restoration of the lost 10 tribes from the north. I think this is still coming, per D&C 133 and other scriptures. 

I believe we are in phase 2, when all the tribes of Israel are being gathered out of every nation into the stakes of Zion around the world (not just Ephraim and Manasseh and not only by adoption).  Phase 3 will be when the tribes will be restored to the lands of their inheritance, but that comes after the second coming of Christ when "the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

[Grug the Neanderthal]

57 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

President Nelson from the October 2011 General Conference:  "Some of us are the literal seed of Abraham; others are gathered into his family by adoption. The Lord makes no distinction."  The footnote to that comment is to Acts 10:34-35:

"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:  But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."

The literal seed of Israel and those who are adopted in are equally accepted of God so long as they are righteous, but this does not mean that the Lord makes no distinction between them whatsoever. Clearly he does, which is why he refers to different groups of people as Israelites, Jews, gentiles, etc. in the scriptures. 

57 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

In Jacob 5, the Lord of the vineyard grafts in the "wild olive branches" (the Gentiles) to keep the tame olive tree (Israel) from perishing, and I think Jacob 5 proves that the Lord doesn't make the distinction once they are grafted in.  Look at verses 17-18:

"And it came to pass that the Lord of the vineyard looked and beheld the tree in the which the wild olive branches had been grafted; and it had sprung forth and begun to bear fruit. And he beheld that it was good; and the fruit thereof was like unto the natural fruit.  18 And he said unto the servant: Behold, the branches of the wild tree have taken hold of the moisture of the root thereof, that the root thereof hath brought forth much strength; and because of the much strength of the root thereof the wild branches have brought forth tame fruit. Now, if we had not grafted in these branches, the tree thereof would have perished. And now, behold, I shall lay up much fruit, which the tree thereof hath brought forth; and the fruit thereof I shall lay up against the season, unto mine own self."

They are the same, all bringing forth the same fruit.

They bring forth the same fruit for a season (both good and bad), but they are not completely the same. God still made a distinction between the wild branches who had been grafted in (adopted gentiles) and the natural branches (literal seed of Israel). We see this once the entire tree became corrupted later:

30 And it came to pass that the Lord of the vineyard and the servant went down into the vineyard; and they came to the tree whose natural branches had been broken off, and the wild branches had been grafted in; and behold all sorts of fruit did cumber the tree.
31 And it came to pass that the Lord of the vineyard did taste of the fruit, every sort according to its number. And the Lord of the vineyard said: Behold, this long time have we nourished this tree, and I have laid up unto myself against the season much fruit.
32 But behold, this time it hath brought forth much fruit, and there is none of it which is good. And behold, there are all kinds of bad fruit; and it profiteth me nothing, notwithstanding all our labor; and now it grieveth me that I should lose this tree.
33 And the Lord of the vineyard said unto the servant: What shall we do unto the tree, that I may preserve again good fruit thereof unto mine own self?
34 And the servant said unto his master: Behold, because thou didst graft in the branches of the wild olive tree they have nourished the roots, that they are alive and they have not perished; wherefore thou beholdest that they are yet good.
35 And it came to pass that the Lord of the vineyard said unto his servant: The tree profiteth me nothing, and the roots thereof profit me nothing so long as it shall bring forth evil fruit.
36 Nevertheless, I know that the roots are good, and for mine own purpose I have preserved them; and because of their much strength they have hitherto brought forth, from the wild branches, good fruit.
37 But behold, the wild branches have grown and have overrun the roots thereof; and because that the wild branches have overcome the roots thereof it hath brought forth much evil fruit; and because that it hath brought forth so much evil fruit thou beholdest that it beginneth to perish; and it will soon become ripened, that it may be cast into the fire, except we should do something for it to preserve it.

57 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

I'm not sure why you are shifting this conversation to talk about "most members of the church are literally Israelites by blood or adopted gentiles".

I’m not shifting the conversation. We had already been discussing this point previously. Whether or not most members, and more particularly those who are identified with tribes other than Ephraim and Manasseh, are adopted gentiles or literal Israel is relevant to this discussion. 

57 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

And who holds those keys now, and what is he saying about the gathering of Israel?

That depends on who the servant in those verses is referring to doesn’t it? Any ideas on who he is? Davidic Servant? One Mighty and Strong? Joseph Smith? All of the above? 

57 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

I believe we are in phase 2, when all the tribes of Israel are being gathered out of every nation into the stakes of Zion around the world (not just Ephraim and Manasseh and not only by adoption). 

I have no problem with the idea that some literal members (or those of mixed lineage)of all tribes are being gathered to stakes around the world. But I dispute that this is the fulfillment of the literal gathering and return of the lost 10 tribes. It’s all connected in a way of course. Ezekiel 47 describes the gathering of Israel beginning as a small trickle of water and slowly growing bigger. 

57 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

Phase 3 will be when the tribes will be restored to the lands of their inheritance, but that comes after the second coming of Christ when "the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

Do you mind sharing some scriptures you believe suggest that the literal gathering of Israel will not occur until after the Second Coming of Christ?
 

Edited April 1, 2023 by Grug the Neanderthal

[InCognitus]

24 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

The literal seed of Israel and those who are adopted in are equally accepted of God so long as they are righteous, but this does not mean that the Lord makes no distinction between them whatsoever. Clearly he does, which is why he refers to different groups of people as Israelites, Jews, gentiles, etc. in the scriptures. 

Rom 10:12  "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him."

Gal 3:28  "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

Col 3:11  "Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all."

25 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I’m not shifting the conversation. We had already been discussing this point previously.

Had we?  We got to this discussion about the tribes of Israel when I said we may see some of the writings of the lost tribes come out of the people who are being gathered from the nations, or even from other Christian denominations (and that is definitely possible).  How did that relate to the tribes of "most members of the church"?

28 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Whether or not most members, and more particularly those who are identified with tribes other than Ephraim and Manasseh, are adopted gentiles or literal Israel is relevant to this discussion. 

Since you're not willing to discuss it, I'll just assume that you get my point about what President Nelson was saying about the various tribes of Israel being more likely to join the church as an indication that they are literal descendants of Israel and not Gentiles being adopted, and I'll let this drop.

32 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

That depends on who the servant in those verses is referring to doesn’t it? Any ideas on who he is? Davidic Servant? One Mighty and Strong? Joseph Smith? All of the above? 

The prophet holds all those keys.

32 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I have no problem with the idea that some literal members (or those of mixed lineage)of all tribes are being gathered to stakes around the world. But I dispute that this is the fulfillment of the literal gathering and return of the lost 10 tribes. It’s all connected in a way of course. Ezekiel 47 describes the gathering of Israel beginning as a small trickle of water and slowly growing bigger. 

It is all connected for sure. And, I never said it was the fulfillment of the crowning glory event of the lost tribes (I always said that is future, as explained below).

33 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Do you mind sharing some scriptures you believe suggest that the literal gathering of Israel will not occur until after the Second Coming of Christ?

First, I should be clear that I was thinking of the tribes "who are in the north countries", or the lost tribes, when I was saying that they will not return to the lands of inheritance until after the Second Coming of Christ (because some of the Jews are returning now). 

I was basing my comment specifically on Doctrine and Covenants 133, because it says it is after the coming of Christ, and when all the nations become a Zion people:

Quote

17 For behold, the Lord God hath sent forth the angel crying through the midst of heaven, saying: Prepare ye the way of the Lord, and make his paths straight, for the hour of his coming is nigh—
18 When the Lamb shall stand upon Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand, having his Father’s name written on their foreheads.
19 Wherefore, prepare ye for the coming of the Bridegroom; go ye, go ye out to meet him.
20 For behold, he shall stand upon the mount of Olivet, and upon the mighty ocean, even the great deep, and upon the islands of the sea, and upon the land of Zion.
21 And he shall utter his voice out of Zion, and he shall speak from Jerusalem, and his voice shall be heard among all people;
22 And it shall be a voice as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder, which shall break down the mountains, and the valleys shall not be found.
23 He shall command the great deep, and it shall be driven back into the north countries, and the islands shall become one land;
24 And the land of Jerusalem and the land of Zion shall be turned back into their own place, and the earth shall be like as it was in the days before it was divided.
25 And the Lord, even the Savior, shall stand in the midst of his people, and shall reign over all flesh.
26 And they who are in the north countries shall come in remembrance before the Lord; and their prophets shall hear his voice, and shall no longer stay themselves; and they shall smite the rocks, and the ice shall flow down at their presence.
27 And an highway shall be cast up in the midst of the great deep.
 28 Their enemies shall become a prey unto them,
29 And in the barren deserts there shall come forth pools of living water; and the parched ground shall no longer be a thirsty land.
30 And they shall bring forth their rich treasures unto the children of Ephraim, my servants.
31 And the boundaries of the everlasting hills shall tremble at their presence.
32 And there shall they fall down and be crowned with glory, even in Zion, by the hands of the servants of the Lord, even the children of Ephraim.
33 And they shall be filled with songs of everlasting joy.
34 Behold, this is the blessing of the everlasting God upon the tribes of Israel, and the richer blessing upon the head of Ephraim and his fellows.
35 And they also of the tribe of Judah, after their pain, shall be sanctified in holiness before the Lord, to dwell in his presence day and night, forever and ever.
(Doctrine and Covenants 133:17–35)
 

Verses 23 and 24 are an indication that the people of the world have become a Zion people (at that point), since the "islands" that become "one land" are the direct undoing of what happened in Genesis 10:5:  "By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations."   In Genesis 10 the people were all scattered and confused by their different languages and different goals, and went off into their own isolated areas (islands).  The antithesis of that (as described above in D&C 133) is that we all become a Zion people, of one heart, one mind, one language, one people.  And the next verse, verse 25, seems to make this very point:  "And the Lord, even the Savior, shall stand in the midst of his people, and shall reign over all flesh". 

And they "who are in the north countries" come forth to meet the Lord and are given their blessings at the hand of Ephraim.

[Grug the Neanderthal]

3 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

Rom 10:12  "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him."

Gal 3:28  "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

Col 3:11  "Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all."

Interesting that you just ignored the verses I quoted from Jacob 5 which distinguished the wild branches and the natural branches after the wild branches had been grafted in. Guess you just don’t want to discuss it for whatever reason.

5 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

Had we? 

Yes we had.

6 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

Since you're not willing to discuss it

This is an interesting conclusion considering that I’ve literally been engaging in discussion with you over this quote. You acknowledged yourself that many have been and are being adopted in. Not sure what else you want to discuss about this. 

13 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

The prophet holds all those keys.

Maybe. Maybe not. It really depends who those verses are talking about. Got any ideas? Davidic Servant? One Mighty and Strong? Joseph Smith? All of the above? Someone else?

Please don’t dodge the question this time. It’s very relevant to understanding the gathering of Israel timeline.

19 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

1 hour ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Do you mind sharing some scriptures you believe suggest that the literal gathering of Israel will not occur until after the Second Coming of Christ?

First, I should be clear that I was thinking of the tribes "who are in the north countries", or the lost tribes, when I was saying that they will not return to the lands of inheritance until after the Second Coming of Christ (because some of the Jews are returning now). 

I was basing my comment specifically on Doctrine and Covenants 133, because it says it is after the coming of Christ, and when all the nations become a Zion people:

Quote

17 For behold, the Lord God hath sent forth the angel crying through the midst of heaven, saying: Prepare ye the way of the Lord, and make his paths straight, for the hour of his coming is nigh—
18 When the Lamb shall stand upon Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand, having his Father’s name written on their foreheads.
19 Wherefore, prepare ye for the coming of the Bridegroom; go ye, go ye out to meet him.
20 For behold, he shall stand upon the mount of Olivet, and upon the mighty ocean, even the great deep, and upon the islands of the sea, and upon the land of Zion.
21 And he shall utter his voice out of Zion, and he shall speak from Jerusalem, and his voice shall be heard among all people;
22 And it shall be a voice as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder, which shall break down the mountains, and the valleys shall not be found.
23 He shall command the great deep, and it shall be driven back into the north countries, and the islands shall become one land;
24 And the land of Jerusalem and the land of Zion shall be turned back into their own place, and the earth shall be like as it was in the days before it was divided.
25 And the Lord, even the Savior, shall stand in the midst of his people, and shall reign over all flesh.
26 And they who are in the north countries shall come in remembrance before the Lord; and their prophets shall hear his voice, and shall no longer stay themselves; and they shall smite the rocks, and the ice shall flow down at their presence.
27 And an highway shall be cast up in the midst of the great deep.
 28 Their enemies shall become a prey unto them,
29 And in the barren deserts there shall come forth pools of living water; and the parched ground shall no longer be a thirsty land.
30 And they shall bring forth their rich treasures unto the children of Ephraim, my servants.
31 And the boundaries of the everlasting hills shall tremble at their presence.
32 And there shall they fall down and be crowned with glory, even in Zion, by the hands of the servants of the Lord, even the children of Ephraim.
33 And they shall be filled with songs of everlasting joy.
34 Behold, this is the blessing of the everlasting God upon the tribes of Israel, and the richer blessing upon the head of Ephraim and his fellows.
35 And they also of the tribe of Judah, after their pain, shall be sanctified in holiness before the Lord, to dwell in his presence day and night, forever and ever.
(Doctrine and Covenants 133:17–35)
 

Verses 23 and 24 are an indication that the people of the world have become a Zion people (at that point), since the "islands" that become "one land" are the direct undoing of what happened in Genesis 10:5:  "By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations."   In Genesis 10 the people were all scattered and confused by their different languages and different goals, and went off into their own isolated areas (islands).  The antithesis of that (as described above in D&C 133) is that we all become a Zion people, of one heart, one mind, one language, one people.  And the next verse, verse 25, seems to make this very point:  "And the Lord, even the Savior, shall stand in the midst of his people, and shall reign over all flesh". 

And they "who are in the north countries" come forth to meet the Lord and are given their blessings at the hand of Ephraim.

Thank you for explaining your reasoning based on D&C 133. I will share some more scriptures and thoughts on this soon. 

 

[Orthodox Christian]

17 hours ago, Hamilton Porter said:

I don't understand the point or relevance of your post, but you should contribute more.

Well I suppose the point is that your post prompted a memory for me due to the fact that you accused somebody but didn't  specify whom. Is it relevant, well your post prompted it, therefore I would say it is relevant to what you posted. I should contribute more? Such as? 

Edited April 1, 2023 by Orthodox Christian

[InCognitus]

15 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Interesting that you just ignored the verses I quoted from Jacob 5 which distinguished the wild branches and the natural branches after the wild branches had been grafted in. Guess you just don’t want to discuss it for whatever reason.

I didn't ignore it, you didn't ask any questions about it, and you were simply presenting the same point that had already been made.  It's about the fruit that was produced, and that was demonstrated by how it was handled later.  When they produced the same fruit, they are the same as the natural branches.  And, ultimately those who are in Christ are one and where they came from doesn't really matter.  Consequently, there is neither Jew nor Greek (in the eyes of God) when they are one in Christ.

15 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Yes we had.

Where?

15 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

This is an interesting conclusion considering that I’ve literally been engaging in discussion with you over this quote. You acknowledged yourself that many have been and are being adopted in. Not sure what else you want to discuss about this. 

You were saying that neither President Nelson's or Sister Nelson's statements say whether those individuals whose patriarchal blessings identify them with a tribe are primarily literal descendants of Israel or primarily gentiles who are being adopted into the house of Israel (you were doubting that they were literal and implying they were adopted).  My point was that he was talking about literal descendants of Israel.  I asked you several questions about how to interpret what he said in some way other than them being literal descendants of Israel, and you completely ignored all my questions related to those statements, from two separate posts.  So I assume you could see that there was no other way to interpret it and you understood the point I was making there and didn't want to discuss it.

The flow of our conversation in this thread has been about finding truth outside of the organization of the Church related to the statements by Joseph Smith about gathering truth from all places, even if it comes from another Christian denomination.  You asked me what kind of truth we might expect to find from other denominations, and that's when I speculated that we might possibly find records from the lost tribes of Israel that were scattered abroad, and those writings may come to us through the gathering of people from those tribes as they become members of the church.  And their writings might come to us through other Christian denominations.  You said this would be highly unlikely, considering who is responsible for finding the lost tribes and restoring them to the house of Israel, and that the lost 10 tribes are currently together in one location hidden from the world.  You said that the gathering that has been going on thus far is the gathering of the remnant of Joseph, which is the tribe of Ephraim, who was scattered among the nations, and some of Manasseh, who are descendants of the Lamanites, but you also acknowledged that rarely a few members of other tribes are occasionally also found mixed among the nations.  

That's when I quoted President Nelson's statement about the gathering of Israel happening "now", and in response you quoted from D&C 133 from the verses that occur after the second coming of Christ.  You also questioned what lineage are those who are currently being gathered to various stakes around the world, and asked if they are mostly literal descendants of Ephraim, Manasseh, and a few from the other tribes, or are they mostly literal gentiles who are being adopted into the house of Israel.  That's when I quoted from Sister Nelson's talk and from President Nelson's statement, where he said those whose lineage is from the various tribes of Israel are those whose hearts will most likely be turned to the Lord.  

And I've always made it clear that there is a distinction between the tribes being "gathered" and their being returned to their own lands.  They are "gathered" now when they are baptized and make covenants with God.  But their return to their lands is a separate and partially a future event.

But I can see that if you believe that the lost 10 tribes are currently together in one location hidden from the world (rather than scattered throughout the nations), then the things that President and Sister Nelson said might be a challenge to your belief on that.  Perhaps you could explain why you believe that to be the case.  

16 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Maybe. Maybe not. It really depends who those verses are talking about. Got any ideas? Davidic Servant? One Mighty and Strong? Joseph Smith? All of the above? Someone else?

Please don’t dodge the question this time. It’s very relevant to understanding the gathering of Israel timeline.

I have my own opinion similar to what other church leaders have said on that topic, but it is only an opinion, and I'm not interested in debating that topic (it has been hashed out on this board before).  My opinions aren't hard set (which is also why I have no interest in debating it), so maybe you can enlighten me.  What do you have in mind here?

16 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Thank you for explaining your reasoning based on D&C 133. I will share some more scriptures and thoughts on this soon. 

Please do.

[Grug the Neanderthal]

10 hours ago, InCognitus said:

I didn't ignore it, you didn't ask any questions about it, and you were simply presenting the same point that had already been made.

I was responding to your point and the verses you had quoted in Jacob 5 to support your point. The verses I quoted clearly show that even though the gentiles were adopted into the house of Israel, produced the same good fruit, etc., that God still made a distinction. And this distinction does matter. And here’s an example for why it matters:

6 And blessed are the Gentiles, because of their belief in me, in and of the Holy Ghost, which witnesses unto them of me and of the Father.
 7 Behold, because of their belief in me, saith the Father, and because of the unbelief of you, O house of Israel, in the latter day shall the truth come unto the Gentiles, that the fulness of these things shall be made known unto them.
8 But wo, saith the Father, unto the unbelieving of the Gentiles—for notwithstanding they have come forth upon the face of this land, and have scattered my people who are of the house of Israel; and my people who are of the house of Israel have been cast out from among them, and have been trodden under feet by them;
9 And because of the mercies of the Father unto the Gentiles, and also the judgments of the Father upon my people who are of the house of Israel, verily, verily, I say unto you, that after all this, and I have caused my people who are of the house of Israel to be smitten, and to be afflicted, and to be slain, and to be cast out from among them, and to become hated by them, and to become a hiss and a byword among them—
10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.
11 And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel, and I will bring my gospel unto them.
12 And I will show unto thee, O house of Israel, that the Gentiles shall not have power over you; but I will remember my covenant unto you, O house of Israel, and ye shall come unto the knowledge of the fulness of my gospel.
13 But if the Gentiles will repent and return unto me, saith the Father, behold they shall be numbered among my people, O house of Israel.
14 And I will not suffer my people, who are of the house of Israel, to go through among them, and tread them down, saith the Father.
15 But if they will not turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, I will suffer them, yea, I will suffer my people, O house of Israel, that they shall go through among them, and shall tread them down, and they shall be as salt that hath lost its savor, which is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of my people, O house of Israel. (3 Nephi 16)

The chapter heading states: In the latter days the gospel will go to the Gentiles and then to the house of Israel

Notice the distinction between the gentiles and the house of Israel made in these verses.

In the latter days the fullness of the gospel goes first to the gentiles, who eventually reject it and sin against it. Then the fullness of the gospel is taken from the gentiles and given back to the house of Israel and those gentiles who repent will be numbered among the house of Israel, while the rest of the gentiles are destroyed because the have become as salt that has lost its savor. 

No, let’s look at a few more scriptures:

62 Wherefore, let us go to and labor with our might this last time, for behold the end draweth nigh, and this is for the last time that I shall prune my vineyard.
63 Graft in the branches; begin at the last that they may be first, and that the first may be last, and dig about the trees, both old and young, the first and the last; and the last and the first, that all may be nourished once again for the last time. (Jacob 5) 

42 And the time cometh that he shall manifest himself unto all nations, both unto the Jews and also unto the Gentiles; and after he has manifested himself unto the Jews and also unto the Gentiles, then he shall manifest himself unto the Gentiles and also unto the Jews, and the last shall be first, and the first shall be last. (1 Nephi 13)

In the meridian of time the gospel went first to the house Israel (Jews), who rejected it, and then it was taken from them and given to the gentiles. Then in the latter days the gospel is first given to the gentiles who reject it, and then it is given back to the house of Israel. 

This is the meaning of the "last shall be first and the first shall be last."

Furthermore, notice how in 3 Nephi 16:15 it says that the gentiles who rejected the fullness of the gospel and would be trodden down as salt that has lost its savor. 

Now let’s compare that to these scriptures:

60 Now these words, O Lord, we have spoken before thee, concerning the revelations and commandments which thou hast given unto us, who are identified with the Gentiles. (D&C 109)

39 When men are called unto mine everlasting gospel, and covenant with an everlasting covenant, they are accounted as the salt of the earth and the savor of men;

40 They are called to be the savor of men; therefore, if that salt of the earth lose its savor, behold, it is thenceforth good for nothing only to be cast out and trodden under the feet of men. (D&C 101)

So who are the gentiles who receive the fullness of the gospel first in the latter days only to eventually sin against it and reject it? And who are the members of the house of Israel who receive the fullness of the gospel in the latter days after it is taken from the gentiles who rejected it?

 

(I’m not ignoring everything else you said, but I think it’s easier to tackle one issue at a time.)

 

 

[InCognitus]

10 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

The chapter heading states: In the latter days the gospel will go to the Gentiles and then to the house of Israel

Notice the distinction between the gentiles and the house of Israel made in these verses.

In the latter days the fullness of the gospel goes first to the gentiles, who eventually reject it and sin against it. Then the fullness of the gospel is taken from the gentiles and given back to the house of Israel and those gentiles who repent will be numbered among the house of Israel, while the rest of the gentiles are destroyed because the have become as salt that has lost its savor. 

There is a distinction between them when they behave differently, but just as you say above, "But if the Gentiles will repent and return unto me, saith the Father, behold they shall be numbered among my people, O house of Israel." (3 Nephi 16:13)  They become one with the House of Israel.

10 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

So who are the gentiles who receive the fullness of the gospel first in the latter days only to eventually sin against it and reject it? 

I think you are not looking at it in the big picture.  Jacob 5 encompasses the Old Testament scattering of Israel, the taking the gospel to the Jews at the time of Christ, and the period of great apostasy immediately after that, and finally the restoration of the gospel and millennial reign.  In the period of great apostasy (verses 29-49) the Gentiles produce all kinds of wild fruit.  They are those who were the "salt" but they became corrupt.  But there is wisdom in the Lord's plan, because even though the wild branches start producing bad fruit, they at least had nourished the roots and the roots of the olive tree remained alive (they did not perish) and "they [the roots] are yet good" (see verse 34).  And it's in the period of restoration and the gathering of Israel (verses 50-76ish) when all of that mess is straightened out, where the vineyard is nurtured again and the the branches with bitter fruit are plucked out of the tree.   

As it says in verses 74-75 of Jacob 5:

Quote

74 And thus they labored, with all diligence, according to the commandments of the Lord of the vineyard, even until the bad had been cast away out of the vineyard, and the Lord had preserved unto himself that the trees had become again the natural fruit; and they became like unto one body; and the fruits were equal; and the Lord of the vineyard had preserved unto himself the natural fruit, which was most precious unto him from the beginning.

75 And it came to pass that when the Lord of the vineyard saw that his fruit was good, and that his vineyard was no more corrupt, he called up his servants, and said unto them: Behold, for this last time have we nourished my vineyard; and thou beholdest that I have done according to my will; and I have preserved the natural fruit, that it is good, even like as it was in the beginning. And blessed art thou; for because ye have been diligent in laboring with me in my vineyard, and have kept my commandments, and have brought unto me again the natural fruit, that my vineyard is no more corrupted, and the bad is cast away, behold ye shall have joy with me because of the fruit of my vineyard.

So, the Gentiles who reject the gospel in the latter days are those who don't receive it when the restored gospel is preached to them.  There are many Gentiles today who sin against the gospel and reject the fulness of the gospel because of their pride and all of their worldly desires.

10 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

And who are the members of the house of Israel who receive the fullness of the gospel in the latter days after it is taken from the gentiles who rejected it?

Gentiles who have accepted the gospel will be numbered with Israel and escape the judgments that are to come upon the wicked (3 Nephi 16:13-14).  As Jacob 5:74-75 says as quoted above, "they became like unto one body; and the fruits were equal".  And after the Gentiles have a good chance to receive the gospel then literal Israel is gathered into the stakes of Zion (which is what is going on now).  But the Jews (not of the lost tribes) don't receive the gospel until the very end, even some after the second coming of Christ.

Edited April 3, 2023 by InCognitus

[Hamilton Porter]

Geographical diversity: anyone from outside North America here?

[InCognitus]

53 minutes ago, Hamilton Porter said:

Geographical diversity: anyone from outside North America here?

I think there are a few people in that category on the board, @JustAnAustralian and @Stargazer

And also @Hamba Tuhan 

Speaking of which, I haven't seen him for a while.  

 

[sheilauk]

I’m British, living in the UK.  Orthodox Christian is in the UK.  Dario is Dutch, living in Portugal. And there’s Duncan, in Canada.

Edited April 3, 2023 by sheilauk

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, sheilauk said:

I’m British, living in the UK.  Orthodox Christian is in the UK.  Dario is Dutch, living in Portugal. And there’s Duncan, in Canada.

There are several other Canadians too, I believe, quite a few more if you include those who occasionally post.

[Grug the Neanderthal]

4 hours ago, InCognitus said:

There is a distinction between them when they behave differently, but just as you say above, "But if the Gentiles will repent and return unto me, saith the Father, behold they shall be numbered among my people, O house of Israel." (3 Nephi 16:13)  They become one with the House of Israel.

No, the distinction is not only when they behave differently. For example in the verses from Jacob 5 I quoted about the great apostasy when the entire tree (house of Israel) had become corrupted, the Lord specifically states that it was because of the wild branches (gentiles) had overcome the roots. We also see this in 3 Nephi 16, where it says that because of the unbelief of the house of Israel in the latter days, the gospel would first be given to the gentiles, then once the gentiles rejected it, it would go to the house of Israel again. There is a clear distinction being made between those gentiles in the latter days who receive the gospel first, are adopted into the house of Israel, but then sin against and reject it and have it taken away from them, and the house of Israel who the gospel then goes to. 

4 hours ago, InCognitus said:

Jacob 5 encompasses the Old Testament scattering of Israel, the taking the gospel to the Jews at the time of Christ, and the period of great apostasy immediately after that, and finally the restoration of the gospel and millennial reign.

Jacob does encompass the creation of the house of Israel, the scattering of Israel, the taking of the gospel to the Israelites living in Palestine during the time of Christ, their rejection of the gospel, the gospel being take from them and given to the gentiles, the gentiles who had been adopted into the house of Israel lapsing into complete apostasy, and then the restoration, gathering of Israel, and millennial reign. But as it says in Jacob 5 and 1 Nephi 13:42 the gospel goes first to the gentiles, who accept it and are nourished for a season only to ultimately reject it and have it taken from them and given back to the literal house of Israel.  

4 hours ago, InCognitus said:

In the period of great apostasy (verses 29-49) the Gentiles produce all kinds of wild fruit.  They are those who were the "salt" but they became corrupt.

4 hours ago, InCognitus said:

So, the Gentiles who reject the gospel in the latter days are those who don't receive it when the restored gospel is preached to them.  There are many Gentiles today who sin against the gospel and reject the fulness of the gospel because of their pride and all of their worldly desires.

Maybe. Or could it be the gentiles who are actually given the gospel first in the latter days and accept it, but then sin against it and reject it? 

Who are the gentiles referred to in these verses:

39 For it shall come to pass, that which I spake by the mouths of my prophets shall be fulfilled; for I will consecrate of the riches of those who embrace my gospel among the Gentiles unto the poor of my people who are of the house of Israel. (D&C 42)

8 That thereby they may be perfected in their ministry for the salvation of Zion, and of the nations of Israel, and of the Gentiles, as many as will believe;
9 That through your administration they may receive the word, and through their administration the word may go forth unto the ends of the earth, unto the Gentiles first, and then, behold, and lo, they shall turn unto the Jews. (D&C 90)

34 The Seventy are to act in the name of the Lord, under the direction of the Twelve or the traveling high council, in building up the church and regulating all the affairs of the same in all nations, first unto the Gentiles and then to the Jews—
35 The Twelve being sent out, holding the keys, to open the door by the proclamation of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and first unto the Gentiles and then unto the Jews. (D&C 107)

60 Now these words, O Lord, we have spoken before thee, concerning the revelations and commandments which thou hast given unto us, who are identified with the Gentiles. (D&C 109)

8 Send forth the elders of my church unto the nations which are afar off; unto the islands of the sea; send forth unto foreign lands; call upon all nations, first upon the Gentiles, and then upon the Jews. (D&C 133)

Who is being referred to as the salt that has lost its savor in these verses:

1 Verily I say unto you, concerning your brethren who have been afflicted, and persecuted, and cast out from the land of their inheritance—
2 I, the Lord, have suffered the affliction to come upon them, wherewith they have been afflicted, in consequence of their transgressions;
3 Yet I will own them, and they shall be mine in that day when I shall come to make up my jewels.
4 Therefore, they must needs be chastened and tried, even as Abraham, who was commanded to offer up his only son.
5 For all those who will not endure chastening, but deny me, cannot be sanctified.
6 Behold, I say unto you, there were jarrings, and contentions, and envyings, and strifes, and lustful and covetous desires among them; therefore by these things they polluted their inheritances.
39 When men are called unto mine everlasting gospel, and covenant with an everlasting covenant, they are accounted as the salt of the earth and the savor of men;
40 They are called to be the savor of men; therefore, if that salt of the earth lose its savor, behold, it is thenceforth good for nothing only to be cast out and trodden under the feet of men.
41 Behold, here is wisdom concerning the children of Zion, even many, but not all; they were found transgressors, therefore they must needs be chastened (D&C 101)

Are these verses referring to gentiles in the latter days who never accept the gospel, whose ancestors had apostatized almost 2,000 years earlier, or are they talking about those gentiles in the latter days who do embrace the gospel, make an everlasting covenant with God, but then sin against it?

I will ask these two questions again:

1) Who are the gentiles who receive the fullness of the gospel first in the latter days only to eventually sin against it and reject it? 

2) Who are the members of the house of Israel who receive the fullness of the gospel in the latter days after it is taken from the gentiles who rejected it?

And this is probably as good a time as any to circle back to the identity of last days servant spoken of in D&C 113:5-6

5 What is the root of Jesse spoken of in the 10th verse of the 11th chapter?
6 Behold, thus saith the Lord, it is a descendant of Jesse, as well as of Joseph, unto whom rightly belongs the priesthood, and the keys of the kingdom, for an ensign, and for the gathering of my people in the last days.

Since you won't give a straight answer as to who you believe this is referring to, I will offer up my conclusions. I believe that this servant is the same servant who is also referred to as the Davidic Servant/King/Prince, One Mighty and Strong, and Elias who will restore all things in the scriptures, whose mission it is to complete the gathering of Israel in the last days. See for example:

9 Q. What are we to understand by the angel ascending from the east, Revelation 7th chapter and 2nd verse?
A. We are to understand that the angel ascending from the east is he to whom is given the seal of the living God over the twelve tribes of Israel; wherefore, he crieth unto the four angels having the everlasting gospel, saying: Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And, if you will receive it, this is Elias which was to come to gather together the tribes of Israel and restore all things.

Now it's your turn. Who do you think this servant is?

 

Edited April 3, 2023 by Grug the Neanderthal

[Stargazer]

17 hours ago, InCognitus said:

I think there are a few people in that category on the board, @JustAnAustralian and @Stargazer

And also @Hamba Tuhan 

Speaking of which, I haven't seen him for a while.  

 

I'm actually from North America, a Yank, if you will, who lives in the UK.

[InCognitus]

23 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

No, the distinction is not only when they behave differently. For example in the verses from Jacob 5 I quoted about the great apostasy when the entire tree (house of Israel) had become corrupted, the Lord specifically states that it was because of the wild branches (gentiles) had overcome the roots.

The "wild branches (gentiles) had overcome the roots", in that they brought forth "evil fruit".  In other words, bad behavior.

23 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

We also see this in 3 Nephi 16, where it says that because of the unbelief of the house of Israel in the latter days, the gospel would first be given to the gentiles, then once the gentiles rejected it, it would go to the house of Israel again.

Yes, this is part of the big picture of Jacob 5 too.  

23 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

There is a clear distinction being made between those gentiles in the latter days who receive the gospel first, are adopted into the house of Israel, but then sin against and reject it and have it taken away from them, and the house of Israel who the gospel then goes to. 

The Gentiles that "receive the gospel first, are adopted into the house of Israel, but then sin against and reject it" are the wild branches grafted into the olive tree in verses 15-28 of Jacob 5, but then start to produce "wild fruit" in the great apostasy portion of Jacob 5, in verses 29-49.  They don't fully reject the gospel until the latter days when the restoration takes place and the Gentiles shall reject the fulness of the gospel.

These are the same Gentiles described in 1 Nephi 13-15, the ones that come out of "captivity" into the promise land and have the "book" of the Lamb of God that had many plain and precious things taken away from it.  And when "other books" come forth (1 Nephi 13:39) then it says "IF" the "Gentiles shall harken unto the Lamb of God in that day that he shall manifest himself unto them in word, and also in power, in very deed, unto the taking away of their stumbling blocks", and they shall be "numbered among the house of Israel' (1 Nephi 14:1-2).  And it further says "wo be unto the Gentiles if it so be that they harden their hearts against the Lamb of God" (1 Nephi 14:6).

So some Gentiles that had portions of the gospel will reject the fulness of the gospel when it is preached to them in the latter days.

23 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Jacob does encompass the creation of the house of Israel, the scattering of Israel, the taking of the gospel to the Israelites living in Palestine during the time of Christ, their rejection of the gospel, the gospel being take from them and given to the gentiles, the gentiles who had been adopted into the house of Israel lapsing into complete apostasy, and then the restoration, gathering of Israel, and millennial reign. But as it says in Jacob 5 and 1 Nephi 13:42 the gospel goes first to the gentiles, who accept it and are nourished for a season only to ultimately reject it and have it taken from them and given back to the literal house of Israel.  

The gospel went to the house of Israel first, then they rejected it and it was given to the Gentiles.  And when the Gentiles have had a good long opportunity to receive the restored gospel, many of the Gentiles in the promise land (in the Book of Mormon sense) will reject the gospel as is preached to them by the missionaries of the Church, and then literal Israel will start receiving it and eventually it will go back to the Jews (some of which will happen after the second coming). 

On 4/2/2023 at 11:32 PM, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Maybe. Or could it be the gentiles who are actually given the gospel first in the latter days and accept it, but then sin against it and reject it? 

There are definitely members of the church that leave the church and reject the gospel if that's what you mean.  But I don't think that's what it is referring to when it talks about the the Gentiles rejecting the gospel, I think that's referring to the rejection of the restored gospel being taught to them by the missionaries of the church, or they sin against the truth that they currently possess from the book of the Lamb of God.

On 4/2/2023 at 11:32 PM, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Who are the gentiles referred to in these verses:

39 For it shall come to pass, that which I spake by the mouths of my prophets shall be fulfilled; for I will consecrate of the riches of those who embrace my gospel among the Gentiles unto the poor of my people who are of the house of Israel. (D&C 42)

8 That thereby they may be perfected in their ministry for the salvation of Zion, and of the nations of Israel, and of the Gentiles, as many as will believe;
9 That through your administration they may receive the word, and through their administration the word may go forth unto the ends of the earth, unto the Gentiles first, and then, behold, and lo, they shall turn unto the Jews. (D&C 90)

34 The Seventy are to act in the name of the Lord, under the direction of the Twelve or the traveling high council, in building up the church and regulating all the affairs of the same in all nations, first unto the Gentiles and then to the Jews—
35 The Twelve being sent out, holding the keys, to open the door by the proclamation of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and first unto the Gentiles and then unto the Jews. (D&C 107)

60 Now these words, O Lord, we have spoken before thee, concerning the revelations and commandments which thou hast given unto us, who are identified with the Gentiles. (D&C 109)

8 Send forth the elders of my church unto the nations which are afar off; unto the islands of the sea; send forth unto foreign lands; call upon all nations, first upon the Gentiles, and then upon the Jews. (D&C 133)

The restored gospel was first taken to the Gentiles of course.  Many received and some are still receiving it.

On 4/2/2023 at 11:32 PM, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Who is being referred to as the salt that has lost its savor in these verses:

1 Verily I say unto you, concerning your brethren who have been afflicted, and persecuted, and cast out from the land of their inheritance—
2 I, the Lord, have suffered the affliction to come upon them, wherewith they have been afflicted, in consequence of their transgressions;
3 Yet I will own them, and they shall be mine in that day when I shall come to make up my jewels.
4 Therefore, they must needs be chastened and tried, even as Abraham, who was commanded to offer up his only son.
5 For all those who will not endure chastening, but deny me, cannot be sanctified.
6 Behold, I say unto you, there were jarrings, and contentions, and envyings, and strifes, and lustful and covetous desires among them; therefore by these things they polluted their inheritances.
39 When men are called unto mine everlasting gospel, and covenant with an everlasting covenant, they are accounted as the salt of the earth and the savor of men;
40 They are called to be the savor of men; therefore, if that salt of the earth lose its savor, behold, it is thenceforth good for nothing only to be cast out and trodden under the feet of men.
41 Behold, here is wisdom concerning the children of Zion, even many, but not all; they were found transgressors, therefore they must needs be chastened (D&C 101)

Are these verses referring to gentiles in the latter days who never accept the gospel, whose ancestors had apostatized almost 2,000 years earlier, or are they talking about those gentiles in the latter days who do embrace the gospel, make an everlasting covenant with God, but then sin against it?

This is said about ANYONE who has had the gospel and doesn't behave like a true Christian.  Jesus said this on the Sermon on the Mount as well:  "Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men."  (Matthew 5:13)

On 4/2/2023 at 11:32 PM, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I will ask these two questions again:

1) Who are the gentiles who receive the fullness of the gospel first in the latter days only to eventually sin against it and reject it? 

My answer hasn't changed.  So I'm not sure why you are asking the same question again.  But, I will say that you are reading something into the verse that it doesn't say, which is that these Gentiles are the same ones that "receive the fulness of the gospel first in the latter days".  It doesn't say that they receive the "fulness" of the gospel anywhere.  It only says that the Gentiles sin against the gospel and "reject the fulness of the gospel", and become lifted up in pride (etc. etc.) and are become as salt that has lost its savor.  This description would apply to some of the Gentiles described in 1 Nephi 13-15, and in parts of Jacob 5.  

These two types of Gentiles are explained in 1 Nephi 14:5–7 (green is good, red is bad ):

Quote

5 And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me, Nephi, saying: Thou hast beheld that if the Gentiles repent it shall be well with them; and thou also knowest concerning the covenants of the Lord unto the house of Israel; and thou also hast heard that whoso repenteth not must perish.
6 Therefore, wo be unto the Gentiles if it so be that they harden their hearts against the Lamb of God.
7 For the time cometh, saith the Lamb of God, that I will work a great and a marvelous work among the children of men; a work which shall be everlasting, either on the one hand or on the other—either to the convincing of them unto peace and life eternal, or unto the deliverance of them to the hardness of their hearts and the blindness of their minds unto their being brought down into captivity, and also into destruction, both temporally and spiritually, according to the captivity of the devil, of which I have spoken.  (1 Nephi 14:5–7)

These Gentiles that harden their hearts against the Lamb of God should know better because they were given portions of the book of the Lamb of God.  Some of them repent and live according to the truths that they've already received or they accept the restored gospel, and some don't.  

On 4/2/2023 at 11:32 PM, Grug the Neanderthal said:

2) Who are the members of the house of Israel who receive the fullness of the gospel in the latter days after it is taken from the gentiles who rejected it?

I think we are transitioning to that point now with the Gentiles in the promise land becoming more hardened, and with many literal descendants of the lost tribes joining the church, but ultimately the Jews will receive it last.  

On 4/2/2023 at 11:32 PM, Grug the Neanderthal said:

And this is probably as good a time as any to circle back to the identity of last days servant spoken of in D&C 113:5-6

5 What is the root of Jesse spoken of in the 10th verse of the 11th chapter?
6 Behold, thus saith the Lord, it is a descendant of Jesse, as well as of Joseph, unto whom rightly belongs the priesthood, and the keys of the kingdom, for an ensign, and for the gathering of my people in the last days.

Since you won't give a straight answer as to who you believe this is referring to, I will offer up my conclusions. I believe that this servant is the same servant who is also referred to as the Davidic Servant/King/Prince, One Mighty and Strong, and Elias who will restore all things in the scriptures, whose mission it is to complete the gathering of Israel in the last days.

Can you please elaborate on this?  Also, how are you connecting the dots here to the "Elias" in D&C 77? 

On 4/2/2023 at 11:32 PM, Grug the Neanderthal said:

See for example:

9 Q. What are we to understand by the angel ascending from the east, Revelation 7th chapter and 2nd verse?
A. We are to understand that the angel ascending from the east is he to whom is given the seal of the living God over the twelve tribes of Israel; wherefore, he crieth unto the four angels having the everlasting gospel, saying: Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And, if you will receive it, this is Elias which was to come to gather together the tribes of Israel and restore all things.

Well, the answer to that question is given in verse 14 of the same section, because it explains who the "Elias" is of verse 9:

14    Q. What are we to understand by the little book which was eaten by John, as mentioned in the 10th chapter of Revelation?
    A. We are to understand that it was a mission, and an ordinance, for him to gather the tribes of Israel; behold, this is Elias, who, as it is written, must come and restore all things.  (Doctrine and Covenants 77:14)

The verse says that John the Revelator was that "Elias".

On 4/2/2023 at 11:32 PM, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Now it's your turn. Who do you think this servant is?

I already said that I have zero interest in speculating or debating who it is, but I am interested in what you think about it.

[Grug the Neanderthal]

7 hours ago, InCognitus said:

The "wild branches (gentiles) had overcome the roots", in that they brought forth "evil fruit".  In other words, bad behavior.

Sure, but the point is that he specifically identified the wild branches (gentiles) who had been grafted in as the problem. If the moment they had been grafted in and brought forth good fruit there was no longer any distinction between them and literal descendants of Israel, then the Lord would not have referred to them as the "wild branches" once they became wicked. He would have referred to them as the "natural branches" having become bad, like he had done earlier when the literal house of Israel had become wicked. 

7 hours ago, InCognitus said:

The Gentiles that "receive the gospel first, are adopted into the house of Israel, but then sin against and reject it" are the wild branches grafted into the olive tree in verses 15-28 of Jacob 5, but then start to produce "wild fruit" in the great apostasy portion of Jacob 5, in verses 29-49.  They don't fully reject the gospel until the latter days when the restoration takes place and the Gentiles shall reject the fulness of the gospel.

So you don't believe that the gentiles received the fulness of the gospel in the meridian of time and rejected it? The Great Apostasy was not a rejection of the fulness of the gospel? 

7 hours ago, InCognitus said:

So some Gentiles that had portions of the gospel will reject the fulness of the gospel when it is preached to them in the latter days.

The reason that the gentiles only had a portion of the gospel in the latter days at the time of the restoration in the 1830s and the subsequent missionary program of the church is because their ancestors had rejected the fulness of the gospel given to them in the meridian of time. And according to Jacob 5 things had become so bad prior to the restoration that God was ready to destroy the whole world, but was persuaded by his servant to spare it a little longer and bring about the restoration of the fulness of the gospel. At which point the fulness of the gospel would go first to the last (gentiles) and then to the first (literal house of Israel). 

7 hours ago, InCognitus said:

On 4/2/2023 at 10:32 PM, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Who is being referred to as the salt that has lost its savor in these verses:

1 Verily I say unto you, concerning your brethren who have been afflicted, and persecuted, and cast out from the land of their inheritance—
2 I, the Lord, have suffered the affliction to come upon them, wherewith they have been afflicted, in consequence of their transgressions;
3 Yet I will own them, and they shall be mine in that day when I shall come to make up my jewels.
4 Therefore, they must needs be chastened and tried, even as Abraham, who was commanded to offer up his only son.
5 For all those who will not endure chastening, but deny me, cannot be sanctified.
6 Behold, I say unto you, there were jarrings, and contentions, and envyings, and strifes, and lustful and covetous desires among them; therefore by these things they polluted their inheritances.
39 When men are called unto mine everlasting gospel, and covenant with an everlasting covenant, they are accounted as the salt of the earth and the savor of men;
40 They are called to be the savor of men; therefore, if that salt of the earth lose its savor, behold, it is thenceforth good for nothing only to be cast out and trodden under the feet of men.
41 Behold, here is wisdom concerning the children of Zion, even many, but not all; they were found transgressors, therefore they must needs be chastened (D&C 101)

Are these verses referring to gentiles in the latter days who never accept the gospel, whose ancestors had apostatized almost 2,000 years earlier, or are they talking about those gentiles in the latter days who do embrace the gospel, make an everlasting covenant with God, but then sin against it?

Expand  

This is said about ANYONE who has had the gospel and doesn't behave like a true Christian.  Jesus said this on the Sermon on the Mount as well:  "Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men."  (Matthew 5:13)

7 hours ago, InCognitus said:

It only says that the Gentiles sin against the gospel and "reject the fulness of the gospel", and become lifted up in pride (etc. etc.) and are become as salt that has lost its savor.

While it's true that this scripture can have more than one application. Let's look very closely at how the Lord defines those who were the salt of the earth and lost their savor and were then good for nothing only to be trodden under the foot of man.

39 When men are called unto mine everlasting gospel, and covenant with an everlasting covenant, they are accounted as the salt of the earth and the savor of men;
40 They are called to be the savor of men; therefore, if that salt of the earth lose its savor, behold, it is thenceforth good for nothing only to be cast out and trodden under the feet of men.

Which gentiles in the latter days does this apply to? Which gentiles in the last days were "called to the Lord's everlasting gospel and covenanted with an everlasting covenant?" Those gentiles who accepted the the restored gospel when it was preached to them and made covenants with God through baptism, receiving the oath and covenant of the priesthood, and through the ordinances of the temple? Or those gentiles who were never at any point called to the fulness of the gospel or covenanted with an everlasting covenant? 

7 hours ago, InCognitus said:

how are you connecting the dots here to the "Elias" in D&C 77?

5 What is the root of Jesse spoken of in the 10th verse of the 11th chapter?
6 Behold, thus saith the Lord, it is a descendant of Jesse, as well as of Joseph, unto whom rightly belongs the priesthood, and the keys of the kingdom, for an ensign, and for the gathering of my people in the last days.

9 Q. What are we to understand by the angel ascending from the east, Revelation 7th chapter and 2nd verse?
A. We are to understand that the angel ascending from the east is he to whom is given the seal of the living God over the twelve tribes of Israel; wherefore, he crieth unto the four angels having the everlasting gospel, saying: Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And, if you will receive it, this is Elias which was to come to gather together the tribes of Israel and restore all things.

7 hours ago, InCognitus said:

Well, the answer to that question is given in verse 14 of the same section, because it explains who the "Elias" is of verse 9:

14    Q. What are we to understand by the little book which was eaten by John, as mentioned in the 10th chapter of Revelation?
    A. We are to understand that it was a mission, and an ordinance, for him to gather the tribes of Israel; behold, this is Elias, who, as it is written, must come and restore all things.  (Doctrine and Covenants 77:14)

The verse says that John the Revelator was that "Elias".

The question is about the book that John ate, not John. It could be that John is Elias who will restore all things or that he received a mission from him. In any event, if he is Elias who will restore all things and gather Israel, then this is a future mission not a past one. 

7 hours ago, InCognitus said:

On 4/2/2023 at 10:32 PM, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Now it's your turn. Who do you think this servant is?

I already said that I have zero interest in speculating or debating who it is, but I am interested in what you think about it.

That's not how this is going to work. I'm not interested in debating who this is. I only brought this up because you quoted D&C 113:6 completely out of context and misapplied it. Then when I asked you about it, you have deflected multiple times. That's not acting in good faith. 

I gave you my answer about who I have concluded that this is referring to. If you are familiar with the scriptures about Elias who will restore all things, the Davidic Servant/King/Prince, and the One Mighty and Strong, then I think you understand why I have reached this conclusion. If not I can provide you with some references to study further, but that's all I'm going to give you if you aren't willing to share any of your own thoughts.

In any event, I think the point has been made. I'm left to conclude that you either don't know who the servant in D&C 113:5-6 is referring to or you have a good pretty good idea, but don't want to acknowledge it because you believe that to do so would weaken your position about the current gathering of Israel and the role of the church in it. 

Edited April 4, 2023 by Grug the Neanderthal

[Hamilton Porter]

On 4/1/2023 at 4:33 AM, Orthodox Christian said:

Well I suppose the point is that your post prompted a memory for me due to the fact that you accused somebody but didn't  specify whom. Is it relevant, well your post prompted it, therefore I would say it is relevant to what you posted. I should contribute more? Such as? 

I was talking about evangelical Christians. Overwhelming majority of them online aren't interesting people to talk to.

I'd rather talk to Catholics, Orthodox, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Zoroastrians, Confucianists, black Protestants, mainline Protestants, and dogs.

 

Edited April 8, 2023 by Hamilton Porter