Diversity of this forum

[Orthodox Christian]

1 hour ago, Hamilton Porter said:

I was talking about evangelical Christians. Overwhelming majority of them online aren't interesting people to talk to.

I'd rather talk to Catholics, Orthodox, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Zoroastrians, Confucianists, black Protestants, mainline Protestants, and dogs.

 

I think dogs are the most interesting choice😚 sorry about the emoji I cant get rid of it! Anyhow happy Easter to you, its not Orthodox Pascha until next Sunday. So tomorrow is Palm Sunday for us. 

Edited April 8, 2023 by Orthodox Christian

[InCognitus]

On 4/4/2023 at 8:11 AM, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Sure, but the point is that he specifically identified the wild branches (gentiles) who had been grafted in as the problem. If the moment they had been grafted in and brought forth good fruit there was no longer any distinction between them and literal descendants of Israel, then the Lord would not have referred to them as the "wild branches" once they became wicked. He would have referred to them as the "natural branches" having become bad, like he had done earlier when the literal house of Israel had become wicked. 

They are distinguished as wild and natural for the illustrative purposes of the parable.  But that's not how the Lord personally views the faithful who turn to him and produce the fruit of gospel.

On 4/4/2023 at 8:11 AM, Grug the Neanderthal said:

So you don't believe that the gentiles received the fulness of the gospel in the meridian of time and rejected it? The Great Apostasy was not a rejection of the fulness of the gospel? 

I believe it says exactly who these gentiles are in the context of 3 Nephi 16, in verse 8 specifically:

“But wo, saith the Father, unto the unbelieving of the Gentiles—for notwithstanding they have come forth upon the face of this land, and have scattered my people who are of the house of Israel; and my people who are of the house of Israel have been cast out from among them, and have been trodden under feet by them…”  (etc.)

These are the same group of Gentiles that were depicted in the vision given to Nephi, as described in 1 Nephi 13-15, the Gentiles that came upon the land of promise.  Nephi said “I beheld the Spirit of God, that it wrought upon other Gentiles; and they went forth out of captivity, upon the many waters.  And it came to pass that I beheld many multitudes of the Gentiles upon the land of promise; and I beheld the wrath of God, that it was upon the seed of my brethren; and they were scattered before the Gentiles and were smitten.” (1 Nephi 13:13-14).

On 4/4/2023 at 8:11 AM, Grug the Neanderthal said:

While it's true that this scripture can have more than one application. Let's look very closely at how the Lord defines those who were the salt of the earth and lost their savor and were then good for nothing only to be trodden under the foot of man.

39 When men are called unto mine everlasting gospel, and covenant with an everlasting covenant, they are accounted as the salt of the earth and the savor of men;
40 They are called to be the savor of men; therefore, if that salt of the earth lose its savor, behold, it is thenceforth good for nothing only to be cast out and trodden under the feet of men.

Which gentiles in the latter days does this apply to? Which gentiles in the last days were "called to the Lord's everlasting gospel and covenanted with an everlasting covenant?" Those gentiles who accepted the the restored gospel when it was preached to them and made covenants with God through baptism, receiving the oath and covenant of the priesthood, and through the ordinances of the temple? Or those gentiles who were never at any point called to the fulness of the gospel or covenanted with an everlasting covenant? 

I’ve already addressed these questions.  You’re just asking the same thing, over and over.

And I think you are misappropriating the verses in the Doctrine and Covenants to try to make them applicable to the context of the verses of the Book of Mormon.  Why not quote what Jesus said to the Nephites on this topic just a couple of chapters earlier?  “Verily, verily, I say unto you, I give unto you to be the salt of the earth; but if the salt shall lose its savor wherewith shall the earth be salted? The salt shall be thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out and to be trodden under foot of men.”  (3 Nephi 12:13)

Do you think Jesus means something different in the context of these verses than he did in 3 Nephi 16:15 or even Doctrine and Covenants section 101:39-40 or section 103:10, where Jesus says that the saints are called to be “saviors of men”?

On 4/4/2023 at 8:11 AM, Grug the Neanderthal said:

That's not how this is going to work. I'm not interested in debating who this is.

That’s really good to know, because it sounded to me like that’s what you wanted to do.  

On 4/4/2023 at 8:11 AM, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I only brought this up because you quoted D&C 113:6 completely out of context and misapplied it. Then when I asked you about it, you have deflected multiple times. That's not acting in good faith. 

“Deflecting” is when someone changes the subject in the middle of an argument.  That’s obviously not what I was doing.  I made it very clear that I was not interested in debating the identity of that person, and I viewed it as irrelevant to the topic, another diversion if you will.  But I can see now why you think it is relevant.  

On 4/4/2023 at 8:11 AM, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I gave you my answer about who I have concluded that this is referring to.

You said all your answers refer to the same person.  You didn’t really provide the identity of the person (which is how you phrased the question and what I understood you to be asking).

On 4/4/2023 at 8:11 AM, Grug the Neanderthal said:

If you are familiar with the scriptures about Elias who will restore all things, the Davidic Servant/King/Prince, and the One Mighty and Strong, then I think you understand why I have reached this conclusion. If not I can provide you with some references to study further, but that's all I'm going to give you if you aren't willing to share any of your own thoughts.

I think it’s best that you start a new thread on this topic, or on the topic of the Gathering of Israel.  This thread is about the diversity of this forum.  We went off on this topic when I was trying to explore your understanding of what it means to be “lukewarm” and what it means to be “open minded”.  Now we’re talking about something completely different, and it has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

If you start a new thread, I will likely participate in it, but I need to get my taxes done first!  

I am interested in the further references, and I’d also like you to elaborate on your views about who is responsible for finding the lost tribes and restoring them to the house of Israel, and your belief that the lost 10 tribes are currently together in one location hidden from the world.

As for who I think is being referred to in Doctrine and Covenants 113:5-6, I’m going to quote what I said previously (because what I said hasn’t changed): “I have my own opinion similar to what other church leaders have said on that topic, but it is only an opinion”.  

But I think this lesson makes it pretty clear that the "rod" and "root" is referring to Joseph Smith, and I tend to agree for the reasons spelled out in the lesson:

Quote

D&C 113:3–6. Who Are the “Rod” and the “Root” Spoken of by Isaiah?

One might assume “that the ‘rod’ was Joseph Smith, believing that the Prophet, out of modesty, hesitated to name himself directly. None of us would question that Joseph was destined to become a great ‘servant in the hands of Christ’. Moreover, if we assume that he was the ‘rod’ or ‘servant’, observe how very well such an identification fits in with Moroni’s mission of explaining to the latter-day Prophet his part in Isaiah’s great vision of the future. As the ‘rod’ or ‘servant in the hands of Christ’, Joseph Smith fits naturally into Isaiah’s prophecy, and it is easy to understand why Moroni quoted and explained Isaiah 11 to him. [See JS—H 1:40.]

“Despite this reasoning, we still have the uneasy feeling that better proof of Joseph Smith’s being the ‘rod’ should be available. I believe there is better proof and that it is found in Doctrine and Covenants 113:5–6. …

“In order to assess this explanation intelligently, let us turn to Isaiah 11:10: [quoted].

“A closer translation of the original may be given here:

“‘And it shall come to pass in that day, that the root of Jesse, that standeth for an ensign [sign, signal] of the peoples, unto him shall the nations seek; and his resting place [refuge, residence] shall be glorious.’

“Quite obviously the ‘root of Jesse’ is a man, a descendant of Jesse and Joseph (as the Lord explains), who seems to have a great mission to perform in connection with gathering the remnant of Israel, as explained in Isaiah 11:11–16. [Most likely] the ‘rod’ of verse 1 and the ‘root of Jesse’ of verse 10 refer to the same man, Joseph Smith. If the ‘rod’ in D&C 113:4 is the ‘servant in the hands of Christ, who is partly a descendant of Jesse as well as of Ephraim, or of the house of Joseph,’ note that in verse 6 he seems to be more closely defined as a ‘descendant of Jesse, as well as of Joseph, unto whom rightly belongs the priesthood, and the keys of the kingdom, for an ensign, and for the gathering of my people in the last days.’ (Italics added.) Who better fits the description of the words in italics than Joseph Smith (see D&C 27:12–13; 86:8–11; 110:1–16; 115:18–19). He rightly holds the priesthood and its keys by lineage, and surely no one disputes the fact that the keys of the ‘gathering of my people’ were conferred on him by Moses in the Kirtland Temple, April 3, 1836.” (Sperry, “The Problem of the ‘Rod’ and the ‘Root of Jesse’ in Isaiah 11,” Improvement Era, Oct. 1966, pp. 869, 914–15.)

In certain scriptures Christ is referred to as the “Root of David” (Revelation 5:5; 22:16). According to Elder Bruce R. McConkie, “This designation signifies that he who was the Son of David was also before David, was pre-eminent above him, and was the root or source from which the great king in Israel gained his kingdom and power” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 657; see also Matthew 22:44–45).

The explanation of Isaiah 11:10 given in Doctrine and Covenants 113 implies that while Christ is the root of David, he is not the root of Jesse mentioned by Isaiah. There are two reasons for this conclusion. First, the Lord through the Prophet Joseph Smith in verse 2 identifies Christ as the stem of Jesse; he does not identify Christ as the root of Jesse. Second, verse 6 indicates that the root of Jesse is a servant of Christ to whom keys are given “in the last days” to gather Christ’s people.

I think it's evident that Joseph Smith understood this to be him and recognized his role in the gathering of Israel as well.  I quoted from a letter of Joseph Smith to Noah C. Saxton, 4 January 1833 in a thread about the apostasy earlier this year (in this post here), and it gives his description of the Gentiles in his day.  The letter can be found on the Joseph Smith Papers site here, but it's also found in Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section One 1830–34, p.14.  I'm quoting from Teachings to simplify the text editing:  

Quote

The Covenant with Israel
The time has at last arrived when the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, has set his hand again the second time to recover the remnants of his people, which have been left from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea, and with them to bring in the fulness of the Gentiles, and establish that covenant with them, which was promised when their sins should be taken away. See Isaiah 11; Romans 11:25, 26 and 27, and also Jeremiah 31:31, 32 and 33. This covenant has never been established with the house of Israel, nor with the house of Judah, for it requires two parties to make a covenant, and those two parties must be agreed, or no covenant can be made.

Christ, in the days of His flesh, proposed to make a covenant with them, but they rejected Him and His proposals, and  in consequence thereof, they were broken off, and no covenant was made with them at that time. But their unbelief has not rendered the promise of God of none effect: no, for there was another day limited in David, which was the day of His power; and then His people, Israel, should be a willing people;—and He would write His law in their hearts, and print it in their thoughts; their sins and their iniquities He would remember no more.

The Covenant to the Gentiles
Thus after this chosen family had rejected Christ and His proposals, the heralds of salvation said to them, “Lo we turn unto the Gentiles;” and the Gentiles received the covenant, and were grafted in from whence the chosen family were broken off; but the Gentiles have not continued in the goodness of God, but have departed from the faith that was once delivered to the Saints, and have broken the covenant in which their fathers were established (see Isaiah 24:5); and have become high-minded, and have not feared; therefore, but few of them will be gathered with the chosen family. Have not the pride, high-mindedness, and unbelief of the Gentiles, provoked the Holy One of Israel to withdraw His Holy Spirit from them, and send forth His judgments to scourge them for their wickedness? This is certainly the case.

The Earth Defiled
Christ said to His disciples (Mark 16:17 and 18), that these signs should follow them that believe:—“In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover;” and also, in connection with this, read 1st Corinthians, 12th chapter. By the foregoing testimonies we may look at the Christian world and see the apostasy there has been from the apostolic platform; and who can look at this and not exclaim, in the language of Isaiah, “The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinances, and broken the everlasting covenant?”

The plain fact is this, the power of God begins to fall  upon the nations, and the light of the latter-day glory begins to break forth through the dark atmosphere of sectarian wickedness, and their iniquity rolls up into view, and the nations of the Gentiles are like the waves of the sea, casting up mire and dirt, or all in commotion, and they are hastily preparing to act the part allotted them, when the Lord rebukes the nations, when He shall rule them with a rod of iron, and break them in pieces like a potter’s vessel. The Lord declared to His servants, some eighteen months since, that He was then withdrawing His Spirit from the earth; and we can see that such is the fact, for not only the churches are dwindling away, but there are no conversions, or but very few: and this is not all, the governments of the earth are thrown into confusion and division; and Destruction, to the eye of the spiritual beholder, seems to be written by the finger of an invisible hand, in large capitals, upon almost every thing we behold.
 

So apparently Joseph Smith viewed the "gathering of Israel" and the events of 3 Nephi 16:10 all happening in his own day.  And it's clear that President Nelson holds the same view.

On 4/4/2023 at 8:11 AM, Grug the Neanderthal said:

In any event, I think the point has been made. I'm left to conclude that you either don't know who the servant in D&C 113:5-6 is referring to or you have a good pretty good idea, but don't want to acknowledge it because you believe that to do so would weaken your position about the current gathering of Israel and the role of the church in it. 

I'm not sure what point you think has been made.  And as you can see, my response to your question greatly strengthens my view that the gathering of Israel is happening now by their conversion and gathering into the stakes of Zion and not some time in the future, although their returning to their own lands will come at a future date (some of which will be after the second coming).  So I'm not sure what you mean.

I encourage you to start a new thread on this topic, and I'll be happy to participate as my time allows.  I want to respect the topic of this current thread, and this other topic we are on is cluttering up the discussion.