Birth control

[telnetd]

The church's topic of birth control says "The decision of how many children to have and 
when to have them is a private matter for the husband and wife ... Those who are physically 
able have the blessing, joy, and obligation to bear children and to raise a family ... 
Decisions about birth control and the consequences of those decisions rest solely with 
each married couple".

If it's a private matter between husband and wife on the number of children to have, then
what negative consequences are there if a husband (with the consent of his wife) chooses
to use condoms to reduce the chance of pregnancy after they mutually agree to have only 2
children?

[MrShorty]

I'm not sure I see what "negative consequences" the essay gives for a scenario like you describe. What are the negative consequences you are inferring from the essay?

Personally, I think the essay is a a careful but necessary conglomeration of a long and sometimes convoluted history with the topic. Any "negative consequences" one might read into the essay are either leftovers from past, more negative beliefs about birth control (either on the part of the essay writers or on the part of the reader) or difficulties parsing language that necessarily must navigate past beliefs with current beliefs.

[telnetd]

6 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

What are the negative consequences you are inferring from the essay?

That's what I'm asking.  When I saw the term "consequence", it implied something negative.

[MustardSeed]

None. 

[MrShorty]

22 minutes ago, telnetd said:

When I saw the term "consequence", it implied something negative.

Perhaps the first step in thinking through this is to not assume that all consequences of family planning are negative? A couple who is more careful in considering the resources they can and will be able to bring to children may be able to offer a better life to the children they bear than the couple who refuses all birth control and brings more children into the world than they have mental, spiritual, and material resources. A couple who chooses to not have natural children (perhaps due to genetic risks or something else) may then have resources to foster or adopt others' children who are struggling.

The hardest part in my opinion about the "consequences" is that we so often must make a decision and accept the consequences about that decision without knowing for sure what the consequences are. It can be difficult to predict ahead of time just how many children a couple can handle. IMO, only God can provide the foresight needed to make good guesses, and those things require faith and courage to seek and accept.

Inevitably, I think there will be regrets. Some will wish they had more children than they chose during childbearing years. Some will feel they had overextended themselves. I think the church generally assumes the former regrets will happen but never addresses the latter set of regrets. I think we need to extend ourselves and others grace that they did the best they could with what they knew when they were making choices.

In the end, I agree with the essay that family planning choices carry consequences. I'm asking that we consider that not all consequences to using birth control to limit family size are negative. These consequences are a mix of positive and negative. IMO, our goal (like our main goal in life overall) is to learn to recognize the good and bad in those consequences and learn to choose the good.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, telnetd said:

what negative consequences are there if a husband (with the consent of his wife) chooses
to use condoms to reduce the chance of pregnancy after they mutually agree to have only 2
children?

You mean, besides the fact that condoms suck!?

[CV75]

1 hour ago, telnetd said:

The church's topic of birth control says "The decision of how many children to have and 
when to have them is a private matter for the husband and wife ... Those who are physically 
able have the blessing, joy, and obligation to bear children and to raise a family ... 
Decisions about birth control and the consequences of those decisions rest solely with 
each married couple".

If it's a private matter between husband and wife on the number of children to have, then
what negative consequences are there if a husband (with the consent of his wife) chooses
to use condoms to reduce the chance of pregnancy after they mutually agree to have only 2
children?

The full last paragraph, from my online access, reads: Birth Control (churchofjesuschrist.org)

"Decisions about birth control and the consequences of those decisions rest solely with each married couple. Elective abortion as a method of birth control, however, is contrary to the commandments of God."

I think any warning tone in the mention of "consequences" refers to waffling on the doctrine shared in the first two paragraphs, which refer to birth into loving families in relation to God's purposes and plan, as "central," and the couple's "responsibility" and "obligation." This waffling can involve selfishness (as mentioned), overriding philosophical and broader population concerns, overriding political concerns concerning abortion, etc. Or downplaying the Issues of physical and mental health and capacity to provide the basic necessities.

Edited December 29, 2022 by CV75

[blackstrap]

Condoms are about 80 - 85 % effective. If the man really does not want any more children, then he should get snipped. Then again ,they may be using condoms in order to set the timing between pregnancies. Good luck with that. 

[LoudmouthMormon]

1 hour ago, telnetd said:

When I saw the term "consequence", it implied something negative.

A very common mistake that lots and lots of people make.  It's ok to not make that mistake just because everyone else does.

[smac97]

2 hours ago, telnetd said:

The church's topic of birth control says "The decision of how many children to have and when to have them is a private matter for the husband and wife ... Those who are physically able have the blessing, joy, and obligation to bear children and to raise a family ... Decisions about birth control and the consequences of those decisions rest solely with each married couple".

If it's a private matter between husband and wife on the number of children to have, then what negative consequences are there if a husband (with the consent of his wife) chooses to use condoms to reduce the chance of pregnancy after they mutually agree to have only 2 children?

If this happens, there ought no be any "negative consequences" from the Church.

Thanks,

-Smac

[JAHS]

3 hours ago, blackstrap said:

Condoms are about 80 - 85 % effective. If the man really does not want any more children, then he should get snipped. Then again ,they may be using condoms in order to set the timing between pregnancies. Good luck with that. 

You know what they call couples who try to use any kind of timing method? Let's see who knows the answer. 😉

[Calm]

3 hours ago, blackstrap said:

Condoms are about 80 - 85 % effective. If the man really does not want any more children, then he should get snipped. Then again ,they may be using condoms in order to set the timing between pregnancies. Good luck with that. 

Condoms and diaphragms with spermicide (88-94% effective by itself) is a good solution if pills and iuds are not an option and you want as effective as you can get from a temporary contraceptive.  80% plus 88% has to be pretty close to 100%, I am guessing (it is of course not a mathematical combination as there may be interactions that increase or decrease effectiveness when used together).

Edited December 29, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

Just now, JAHS said:

You know what they call couples who try to use any kind of timing method? Let's see who knows the answer. 😉

Parents 

[JAHS]

Couldn't resist showing this one. 😄

[BlueDreams]

4 hours ago, blackstrap said:

Condoms are about 80 - 85 % effective. If the man really does not want any more children, then he should get snipped. Then again ,they may be using condoms in order to set the timing between pregnancies. Good luck with that. 

It's around 13-18% typical used failure rate when considering common use. Perfect use is around 2%. And as mentioned, mixing it with other methods definitely nudges it to that other end. FAM methods that track ovulation (not just via dates, but by physical shifts in body temp, fluids, etc) also have a very high effectiveness rate. For comparison the pill is somewhere around 7-9% typical use failure rate. I agree that the most effective means to assure no children if your fully certain you don't want any more is via vasectomy (1st) and/or tubal ligation (distant 2nd). Rating is more based in risks and ease of recovery moreso than effectiveness. 

 

4 hours ago, pogi said:

You mean, besides the fact that condoms suck!?

Meh! We like em and most my good friends do too generally. I would have agreed with you up until said friends started marrying and almost all of them had at least some negative side effects from the pill and other hormonal BC methods. Quickly decided that I'd rather have condoms. They don't cause episodes of depression, mood swings, weight gain, painful sex, low drive and a trove of other side effects I've been privvy to hear about over the years.

Plus not all condoms are made equal. 

 

With luv, 

BD 

[pogi]

11 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

Meh! We like em and most my good friends do too generally. I would have agreed with you up until said friends started marrying and almost all of them had at least some negative side effects from the pill and other hormonal BC methods. Quickly decided that I'd rather have condoms. They don't cause episodes of depression, mood swings, weight gain, painful sex, low drive and a trove of other side effects I've been privvy to hear about over the years.

Plus not all condoms are made equal. 

I have tried many many different ones because of all the negative side effects of everything else you mention.  They all suck in my opinion!  You are entitled to yours.  My wife agrees with me big time.  I got snipped.  Life is better now.  My wife agrees. 

[BlueDreams]

2 minutes ago, pogi said:

I have tried many many different ones because of all the negative side effects of everything else you mention.  They all suck in my opinion!  You are entitled to yours.  My wife agrees with me big time.  I got snipped.  Life is better now.  My wife agrees. 

Long term, that's probably where we'll end up as well once we're sure we're done with making kids.

[bluebell]

6 hours ago, telnetd said:

The church's topic of birth control says "The decision of how many children to have and 
when to have them is a private matter for the husband and wife ... Those who are physically 
able have the blessing, joy, and obligation to bear children and to raise a family ... 
Decisions about birth control and the consequences of those decisions rest solely with 
each married couple".

If it's a private matter between husband and wife on the number of children to have, then
what negative consequences are there if a husband (with the consent of his wife) chooses
to use condoms to reduce the chance of pregnancy after they mutually agree to have only 2
children?

I would imagine it could be the loss of the blessings that would have been theirs if they had had a child that they otherwise worked to exclude from their family (though their family could have accommodated him/her).

But only God and the spouses could ever judge such a thing. These are choices that might appear for one reason to the outside world that might actually have been made for completely different reasons. No one should ever try to judge another on this topic.

And whatever God judges, it will be as merciful as He can make it while being bound to the natural consequences of our agency.

That’s how I understand it anyway.

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, pogi said:

You mean, besides the fact that condoms suck!?

A common misconception. You have to provide your own suction through them though. They are really very lazy things.

[MustardSeed]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

A common misconception. You have to provide your own suction through them though. They are really very lazy things.

Gross. 

[bluebell]

23 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

It's around 13-18% typical used failure rate when considering common use. Perfect use is around 2%. And as mentioned, mixing it with other methods definitely nudges it to that other end. FAM methods that track ovulation (not just via dates, but by physical shifts in body temp, fluids, etc) also have a very high effectiveness rate. For comparison the pill is somewhere around 7-9% typical use failure rate. I agree that the most effective means to assure no children if your fully certain you don't want any more is via vasectomy (1st) and/or tubal ligation (distant 2nd). Rating is more based in risks and ease of recovery moreso than effectiveness. 

 

Meh! We like em and most my good friends do too generally. I would have agreed with you up until said friends started marrying and almost all of them had at least some negative side effects from the pill and other hormonal BC methods. Quickly decided that I'd rather have condoms. They don't cause episodes of depression, mood swings, weight gain, painful sex, low drive and a trove of other side effects I've been privvy to hear about over the years.

Plus not all condoms are made equal. 

 

With luv, 

BD 

Hormonal birth control can be so hard in women. We went to strictly condoms for years until I got a tubal during my last c-section (figured there were in there anyway) because I refused to deal with hormonal BC after my second. 

[The Nehor]

15 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Hormonal birth control can be so hard in women. We went to strictly condoms for years until I got a tubal during my last c-section (figured there were in there anyway) because I refused to deal with hormonal BC after my second. 

They came up with hormonal birth control for men. Men hated it so much that almost no one uses it. Go figure.

Edited December 30, 2022 by The Nehor

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

They came up with hormonal birth control for me. Men hated it so much that almost no one uses it. Go figure.

Yep. 

[rodheadlee]

5 hours ago, pogi said:

You mean, besides the fact that condoms suck!?

I hve never used one in my entire life. We have been trying to make a baby for 49 years. No joy. Paid a lot of money to some doctors too. Cherish your children. 

Edited December 30, 2022 by rodheadlee

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, pogi said:

You mean, besides the fact that condoms suck!?

Where do you put the batteries?