2 BYU-I Professors fired, even though their Bishops claim to have endorsed them

[Snodgrassian]

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2022/11/28/byu-i-instructors-fired-failing/

I wonder if there are different standards at BYU-I or if other CES employees will lose their endorsements as well. I can't imagine these are the only 2 (from the same University) that had their Bishop's endorsement overruled. 

Quote

Lindsay Larson Call, a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, had just wrapped up a contract with Brigham Young University-Idaho evaluating potential hires for its online program when she got the call. After 10 years working herself as an online instructor for the Rexburg-based school, she was out of a job.

“The [BYU-I employee] who called me wasn’t anyone I had ever had contact with before,” the Bakersfield, Calif., resident said. “He said he had nothing to do with the decision, that he doesn’t even work with online programs.”

Instead, the caller said, he’d received a list of names from the Ecclesiastical Clearance Office (ECO) of individuals who had failed to obtain “ecclesiastical clearance.” As a result, they were no longer eligible to work at BYU-I.

...

Ben Buswell, a Houston resident with a background in business and entrepreneurship, was another. Together they represent just two Church Educational System employees to see their careers cut short due to failure to meet what appears to be new criteria established by the ECO of demonstrated loyalty to the Utah-based church.

I do not envy the Universities/CES in trying to determine where the line is. Academics is a place to challenge ideas/thoughts/status quo, but at some institutions, the boundaries of the discourse are narrower than others, and schools like BYU have the right to dictate that as long as students continue to enroll.

[Rain]

14 minutes ago, Snodgrassian said:

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2022/11/28/byu-i-instructors-fired-failing/

I wonder if there are different standards at BYU-I or if other CES employees will lose their endorsements as well.

No clue, but I know a few years back BYU-I was stricter on dress standards, even just for education week than BYU-Provo.  Whether it is still that way now or not I don't know.

14 minutes ago, Snodgrassian said:

I can't imagine these are the only 2 (from the same University) that had their Bishop's endorsement overruled. 

I do not envy the Universities/CES in trying to determine where the line is. Academics is a place to challenge ideas/thoughts/status quo, but at some institutions, the boundaries of the discourse are narrower than others, and schools like BYU have the right to dictate that as long as students continue to enroll.

 

[Craig Speechly]

7 minutes ago, Snodgrassian said:

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2022/11/28/byu-i-instructors-fired-failing/

I wonder if there are different standards at BYU-I or if other CES employees will lose their endorsements as well. I can't imagine these are the only 2 (from the same University) that had their Bishop's endorsement overruled. 

I do not envy the Universities/CES in trying to determine where the line is. Academics is a place to challenge ideas/thoughts/status quo, but at some institutions, the boundaries of the discourse are narrower than others, and schools like BYU have the right to dictate that as long as students continue to enroll.

As a religion, the church has constitutional rights that non-church owned universities do not enjoy.  They can set religions standards other employers can not use.

What could be disturbing here is despite meeting the stated hurdles set by the church for university employment, there seems to be an additional set of expectations that remain nebulous, murky and unstated.

It is speculated that the church has a team that monitors BYU & BYU-I professor's online social media posts.  If true, that is just too "Big Brotherish" for my tastes but certainly not outside of the churches right to do.

 

[Snodgrassian]

4 minutes ago, Craig Speechly said:

As a religion, the church has constitutional rights that non-church owned universities do not enjoy.  They can set religions standards other employers can not use.

What could be disturbing here is despite meeting the stated hurdles set by the church for university employment, there seems to be an additional set of expectations that remain nebulous, murky and unstated.

It is speculated that the church has a team that monitors BYU & BYU-I professor's online social media posts.  If true, that is just too "Big Brotherish" for my tastes but certainly not outside of the churches right to do.

 

Totally agree. I don't remember ever hearing about a Bishop's endorsement being overturned, but I also do not actively follow this. Nothing drove me more nuts at BYU than seeing students blatantly and seriously breaking the honor code. It is the Church's University, they make the rules, you signed up. That is a black and white view, and reality isn't so easy.

[Arthur Vandelay]

I think an unfortunate unintended consequence of these policies is that some profs/staff may curb or eliminate free and open discussions with priesthood leaders. 

[Craig Speechly]

59 minutes ago, Arthur Vandelay said:

I think an unfortunate unintended consequence of these policies is that some profs/staff may curb or eliminate free and open discussions with priesthood leaders. 

It will definitely have a chilling effect on free speech, thought and expression.  But I believe that is exactly what the church is seeking of these employees.  Loyalty in Speech, Thought and Expression.

[Arthur Vandelay]

4 minutes ago, Craig Speechly said:

It will definitely have a chilling effect on free speech, thought and expression.  But I believe that is exactly what the church is seeking of these employees.  Loyalty in Speech, Thought and Expression.

Indeed.

I think at the very least there should be some explicit guidelines.  Is holding private thoughts that gay marriage should be legal OK?  Or should someone to pretend they oppose?  What about belief in a literal flood?  Is it acceptable to take a non-literal view?  Would Nibley be fired for his views on pre-adamites?

[The Nehor]

I do think this is just about the most cowardly way to fire someone ever. A decision is made and instead of talking to whoever is in charge of their department they get someone completely uninvolved to drop the hammer. Presumably because the people right above them on the chain might push back at someone firing their people. Then giving them the spiel to say how uninvolved they are and that they are just a disinterested messenger instead of calling them up yourself. Whoever did this is almost certainly a weenie and a complete loser.

[Amulek]

1 hour ago, Craig Speechly said:

It is speculated that the church has a team that monitors BYU & BYU-I professor's online social media posts.  If true, that is just too "Big Brotherish" for my tastes but certainly not outside of the churches right to do.

I'm doubtful the church has a team dedicated to actively monitoring the social media postings of CES employees. There's just too many people and too much information to sift through. More likely, they simply have some sort of process in place to review situations whenever they are reported to the university - same as what happens at other schools whenever students, co-workers, or others find that an employee has said something that is considered to be objectionable.

And for what it's worth, I don't personally consider it "Big Brotherish" for an employer to review the public comments of their employees. Nothing you say on the internet is private. If you don't want your spouse, neighbor, employer, local police department, etc. to know what you really think about them, then don't say it in a public forum.

Maybe it's time for my trademark advice whenever this topic comes up: NEVER put ANYTHING on the Internet that you are not okay with EVERYBODY seeing FOREVER.

Good advice that. Maybe I should consider putting it in my sig. (I've been meaning to put something in there eventually, so I can be like the cool kids.)

 

[Kenngo1969]

If ... and I admit, this is a big "if," because I have no inside information ... instructors are saying one thing to their bishops in interviews (that they agree with the standards of belief and will conform to the standards of behavior expected of those employed by educational institutions sponsored by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) and, yet, are saying things on line that are inconsistent with what they've told their bishops ... then I don't think this action by BYU - Idaho is terribly surprising.

Edited November 29, 2022 by Kenngo1969

[morgan.deane]

Posted this on facebook along with the link: I went through a bureaucratic nightmare with heaping amounts of spiritual passive aggression, constant hassling over my tps reports, entitled students, and low pay. I think that school was the reason I had such bad TMJ pain. Someone in the church or school's administration did them a favor. They should count their blessings and move on.

[bluebell]

3 hours ago, Snodgrassian said:

Totally agree. I don't remember ever hearing about a Bishop's endorsement being overturned, but I also do not actively follow this. Nothing drove me more nuts at BYU than seeing students blatantly and seriously breaking the honor code. It is the Church's University, they make the rules, you signed up. That is a black and white view, and reality isn't so easy.

I personally know of someone who was fired from BYU a few years ago (around 2019 I think)because a bishop pulled their endorsement.  When the bishop went to the university and told them it was a mistake, the person was still fired. 

I'm guessing it's because their social media presence became known to BYU in the time between the pulled endorsement and the bishop trying to mitigate their mistake.

[Hamba Tuhan]

I've mentioned this before, but when I was a master's student in America, I had a flatmate during my second year whose brother was 'let go' from one of the BYUs. It was obvious from talking with A--- that his brother no longer believed and in fact harboured a good deal of animosity towards the Church. I once asked my flatmate why his family member wanted so badly to retain his position, and A--- said frankly that the brother wanted to be able to influence his students to see the Church/world in a more 'progressive' way -- i.e., he was seeking 'converts' to his personal apostasy.

Of course, in all media reports, the brother played the victim to the bullying Church, with no inkling of his apostasy or his agenda.

Edited November 29, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, Craig Speechly said:

As a religion, the church has constitutional rights that non-church owned universities do not enjoy.  They can set religions standards other employers can not use.

What could be disturbing here is despite meeting the stated hurdles set by the church for university employment, there seems to be an additional set of expectations that remain nebulous, murky and unstated.

It is speculated that the church has a team that monitors BYU & BYU-I professor's online social media posts.  If true, that is just too "Big Brotherish" for my tastes but certainly not outside of the churches right to do.

 

I think this is some musket fire going on.

[sunstoned]

If this article is to be believed, then a big take away for me is if you are a church employee, then never open up to your Bishop at all.  It seems the BYUs are promoting a snitch environment.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, sunstoned said:

If this article is to be believed, then a big take away for me is if you are a church employee, then never open up to your Bishop at all.  It seems the BYUs are promoting a snitch environment.

I doubt this is the bishop tattling in most cases. I would be more worried about a ward busybody reporting stuff to someone outside the normal chain or just calling the school ‘out of a sense of duty’ to report something. Probably something petty along those lines.

[Arthur Vandelay]

23 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

doubt this is the bishop tattling in most cases. I would be more worried about a ward busybody reporting stuff to someone outside the normal chain or just calling the school ‘out of a sense of duty’ to report something. Probably something petty along those lines.

Tell me you didn't read the article without telling me you didn't read the article.

[The Nehor]

13 minutes ago, Arthur Vandelay said:

Tell me you didn't read the article without telling me you didn't read the article.

Did you miss the “baffled bishops” section?

[mfbukowski]

None of these comments rise above hearsay at best, and evidence is not possible to obtain due to privacy concerns.

Yawn.

Hello. 

Goodbye. 😊

Edited November 29, 2022 by mfbukowski

[The Nehor]

11 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

None of these comments rise above hearsay at best, and evidence is not possible to obtain due to privacy concerns.

Yawn.

Hello. 

Goodbye. 😊

You were expecting us all to be reporters pounding the pavement and tracking down witnesses?

[blackstrap]

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

ward busybody reporting stuf

With social media , Big Brother has millions of spies working for free , looking back decades.

[The Nehor]

36 minutes ago, blackstrap said:

With social media , Big Brother has millions of spies working for free , looking back decades.

On the bright side Twitter may burn to the ground in the next few months.

[Arthur Vandelay]

14 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

On the bright side Twitter may burn to the ground in the next few months.

[Maestrophil]

I just think it is very not fair that they were never told exactly what the thing was that got them dismissed.  It seems only fair to tgive them a cahnce to claify a stance or action - otherwise, it feels like anyone can just lob an accusation and get sometone fired.  

[ksfisher]

9 minutes ago, Maestrophil said:

I just think it is very not fair that they were never told exactly what the thing was that got them dismissed.  It seems only fair to tgive them a cahnce to claify a stance or action - otherwise, it feels like anyone can just lob an accusation and get sometone fired.  

A couple things to remember.  First, we don't know that they weren't told why they were let go,  we only know what the story says.  Second, this is the Salt Lake Tribune doing the reporting.  The Tribune sells papers by painting the church in a negative light. 

I'm not saying the story is factually inaccurate, I'm saying that all that is known is what the Tribune has chosen to share and that the Tribune is historically antagonistic towards the church.