Taking a break from Church.

[SkyRock]

The church is so much less of a commitment than in years past.  Only 2 hours a week, ministering isn't home teaching, church sports mostly done, church cultural events mostly gone, and even activities mostly gone.

My stake growing up had softball and basketball for everyone (deacons, priests, yw, elders,  high priests, women), monthly youth dances,  roadshows, monthly stake firesides , monthly stake dances, monthly ward activities, etc.   It was very busy.   

Even my singles ward often had activities on 5 nights besides Sunday  meetings.

We have a decent amount of activities for our ward and stake now but it is nothing like when I was a youth.   

One problem we have is families putting elementary and middle school kids into club sports which usually have lots of time commitments and games on Sundays.  I know that has evolved a bit, but it would have been unheard of when I was a kid.

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

This is so true. I skipped a few weeks to move and now it's been years. We still believe and tithe but it's hard to go back. We have moved through 4 zones since then.

If you need support, contact your bishop. Every bishop I know would do handsprings to have someone return to activity. 

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, SkyRock said:

The church is so much less of a commitment than in years past.  Only 2 hours a week, ministering isn't home teaching, church sports mostly done, church cultural events mostly gone, and even activities mostly gone.

My stake growing up had softball and basketball for everyone (deacons, priests, yw, elders,  high priests, women), monthly youth dances,  roadshows, monthly stake firesides , monthly stake dances, monthly ward activities, etc.   It was very busy.   

Even my singles ward often had activities on 5 nights besides Sunday  meetings.

We have a decent amount of activities for our ward and stake now but it is nothing like when I was a youth.   

One problem we have is families putting elementary and middle school kids into club sports which usually have lots of time commitments and games on Sundays.  I know that has evolved a bit, but it would have been unheard of when I was a kid.

Community activities were far less common in the past. In a very real way, the ward WAS the community in areas of high-density membership. Church activities filled a vacuum. Not anymore. 
 

Sometimes I feel nostalgic for those days, but I don’t think the customs fit our contemporary times. 

[pogi]

8 hours ago, Thinking said:

I recently found out that a nephew of mine and his wife are "taking a break from Church." As I understand it, they want to see what their lives are like without the Church. Both were raised by very active parents and they have known nothing but life in the Church. I don't know if this is a cover for "we don't believe anymore."

Do any of you know somebody who "took a break from the Church?" Did they come back or stay away?

They will be 10% richer and 100% regretful at some point.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Community activities were far less common in the past. In a very real way, the ward WAS the community in areas of high-density membership. Church activities filled a vacuum. Not anymore. 
 

Sometimes I feel nostalgic for those days, but I don’t think the customs fit our contemporary times. 

It also made the “every member a missionary” thing a little difficult when church lifestyle basically asked you to spend a substantial amount of your free time with other members.

[SkyRock]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

It also made the “every member a missionary” thing a little difficult when church lifestyle basically asked you to spend a substantial amount of your free time with other members.

It seemed easier in some ways.  We always had non members in scouting, sports, at dances, and other activities.   It kept one of my childhood friends active, per his words, as a teen.   He left the church as an adult. 

Activities are not a substitute for a testimony, but they sure seemed to help build a ward community. 

[MorningStar]

If covid lockdown wasn't enough of a break, sounds like they're leaving. We didn't go to church for a year with our lockdown.  

[Hamba Tuhan]

10 hours ago, rongo said:

The sad thing is that being engaged bears self-perpetuating fruit. When people aren't feeling that, I understand not wanting to put in the time and effort. I wouldn't if it didn't bear fruit.

Exactly.

What I have observed in the past is that people who 'take a break' have already been taking a break in most ways outside of actual attendance. As a consequence, they don't notice much if any difference because formal attendance without being engaged is a recipe for burnout, not blessings.

For such an experiment to work, people have to be fully engaged first. In such cases, the contrast is immediate and unmistakable.

As a full-time missionary, I taught a young investment banker who became as fully engaged as a non-member can but just couldn't decide that any of what we had taught him was true. He faithfully attended church on Sundays and always read in the scriptures in preparation for classes. He prayed and fasted and even paid fast offerings. He attended Institute, participated in elders quorum and ward service projects, and attended family home evening. And so forth.

After six months he decided to take a two-week 'break' from Church to see what happened. The Elders serving in his ward at the time told him it was a bad idea, but when he asked me, I told him enthusiastically to go for it. I then warned him that his spiritual life was about to go down the toilet.

'What if it doesn't?' he asked.

'Well, then at least you'll know that what we taught you isn't true'.

He made it one week. The following Sunday, I was back in the ward to baptise him.

In contrast, we had an American PhD student in our ward a few years ago. He faded away at church over the course of many months. He was there in person, but he spent sacrament meeting on his phone. He was called as an Aaronic priesthood quorum adviser but did almost nothing in his calling, ignoring the boys and eventually becoming unreliable at attending activities. Unsurprisingly, when he decided to take a 'break' away from Church, he couldn't discern any impact, and so he stayed away. (He also bombed out of his PhD, went back to America with a 'courtesy master's degree', and got a high-paying job anyway, which just confirmed him in his apostasy.)

[Rain]

13 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

I've taken small breaks. Skip a day, and in the blink of an eye it unintentionally becomes 3 or 4. Pure laziness on my part, inactivity can be tempting. But I'll go back, get back in the groove and it becomes refreshing. I can usually appreciate the advice that each Member needs a friend and a calling to stay active. You need reason to show up, you start thinking no one is going to miss me, surely they'll find a way to get by. They probably won't even notice.

I've felt the opposite myself.   It is irritating to be stuck there with a calling.  I can and do find friends in other ways.  I'm just done doing things because I'm supposed to. It wears me out.  If I'm going to be anywhere now it is only because it feels right between God and me. That doesn't mean I won't have callings.  It means that if nothing is there than a calling isn't going to stop me from leaving.

13 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

Anyways, no worries, they'll never escape our tentacles. We're following them in the street. We're listening to their phone calls. We're watching them while they sleep. Once we catch them alone, it will be time for another round of rehabilitation treatment in the temple basement. You'll be re-assimilated into the morgbot collective. You will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile.

 

Edited June 14, 2022 by Rain

[Rain]

11 hours ago, smac97 said:

Back in 2015 Jana Riess did this: A year off from Mormonism

We talked about the above article on this board: Taking A "sabbatical" From Activity In The Church

For myself, I find the notion of "taking a break" from one's covenants to be inherently problematic.  I could no more blow off my obligations to God than I could blow off my obligations to my wife and children.

I don't think people who are "taking a break" are necessarily "blowing off covenants".  There's a whole range of what it can mean and for many it will be after much serious prayer and study.  It's really going to be a case by case basis.

11 hours ago, smac97 said:

  I mean, I guess I could do that, but that would materially diminish me, particularly if I were to do so in a calculated way.  In the immortal words of Marilla Cuthbert (of Anne of Green Gables fame) : "God does not want you for a fair-weather friend."  We are, instead, commanded to be vigilant and constant in our devotions:

• "And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not."  (Galatians 6:9)
• "Wherefore, be not weary in well-doing, for ye are laying the foundation of a great work. And out of small things proceedeth that which is great.  Behold, the Lord requireth the heart and a willing mind; and the willing and obedient shall eat the good of the land of Zion in these last days."  (D&C 6433-34).
• "Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy."  (James 5:11)
• "And blessed are they who shall seek to bring forth my Zion at that day, for they shall have the gift and the power of the Holy Ghost; and if they endure unto the end they shall be lifted up at the last day, and shall be saved in the everlasting kingdom of the Lamb."  (1 Nephi 13:37)
• "Behold, I am the law, and the light. Look unto me, and endure to the end, and ye shall live; for unto him that endureth to the end will I give eternal life."  (3 Nephi 15:9)
• "And, if you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God."  (D&C 14:7)
• "And as many as repent and are baptized in my name, which is Jesus Christ, and endure to the end, the same shall be saved."  (D&C 18:22)
• "But blessed are they who are faithful and endure, whether in life or in death, for they shall inherit eternal life."  (D&C 50:5)
• "Now this was a great trial to those that did stand fast in the faith; nevertheless, they were steadfast and immovable in keeping the commandments of God."  (Alma 1:25)
• "And he also spake unto Lemuel: O that thou mightest be like unto this valley, firm and steadfast, and immovable in keeping the commandments of the Lord!"  (1 Nephi 2:10)
• "And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint."  (Luke 18:1)
• "To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life."  (Romans 2:7)
• "If thou wilt do good, yea, and hold out faithful to the end, thou shalt be saved in the kingdom of God, which is the greatest of all the gifts of God; for there is no gift greater than the gift of salvation."  (D&C 6:13)
• "And that thou mayest more fully keep thyself unspotted from the world, thou shalt go to the house of prayer and offer up thy sacraments upon my holy day; For verily this is a day appointed unto you to rest from your labors, and to pay thy devotions unto the Most High; Nevertheless thy vows shall be offered up in righteousness on all days and at all times; But remember that on this, the Lord’s day, thou shalt offer thine oblations and thy sacraments unto the Most High, confessing thy sins unto thy brethren, and before the Lord."  (D&C 59:9-12)
• "And behold, I tell you these things that ye may learn wisdom; that ye may learn that when ye are in the service of your fellow beings ye are only in the service of your God."  (Mosiah 2:17)
• "So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth."  (Revelation 3:16)

We can't really assume the couple is drinking luke warm water.  It’s possible that after study and prayer they decide it would be a good time to take a break from the hot water and try the cold water.  

 

11 hours ago, smac97 said:

I have known many people who have returned from inactivity, but I have known many more who have not.

Thanks,

-Smac

 

[carbon dioxide]

Some people choose to take a break from the Church to see what wonders in Babylon will bring them.  But as we slowly inch towards the second coming and peace is more and more withdrawn from the world, these breaks may become shorter for both spiritual and temporal salvation.  Unfortunately for some, they think they found freedom and reason.  When in reality they like a man resting on railroad tracks, all is quiet,  thinking everything is fine while a 200 mph bullet train  is speeding towards them and this train is stopping for nobody.  Maybe they will get off the tracks in time and maybe they will not.

[Scott Lloyd]

49 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

Some people choose to take a break from the Church to see what wonders in Babylon will bring them.  But as we slowly inch towards the second coming and peace is more and more withdrawn from the world, these breaks may become shorter for both spiritual and temporal salvation.  Unfortunately for some, they think they found freedom and reason.  When in reality they like a man resting on railroad tracks, all is quiet,  thinking everything is fine while a 200 mph bullet train  is speeding towards them and this train is stopping for nobody.  Maybe they will get off the tracks in time and maybe they will not.

I view it terms of Nephi’s vision of the great and spacious building with that vision’s timeless application. Whatever the motivation might be — the allure of the building itself, curiosity about what’s inside, embarrassment over being mocked and jeered at for clinging to the iron rod — they make their way inside that colossal structure and become comfortable therein, little realizing the spectacular fall and destruction that await it and its inhabitants. 

[Ipod Touch]

I took a break from Church and never returned.  I don't regret this choice.

Since leaving the LDS Church:

* My income has more than doubled

* I have gotten married and have had several beautiful children

* I finally completed my masters degree by taking an accelerated weekend program on Saturday and Sunday

* I have lost over 80 lbs and my bloodwork has never been better

Are these things due to leaving the LDS Church?  No.  Claiming that would be stupid.

But what I have learned is that "blessings" are not constrained to being faithful to the LDS Church.  Since losing my testimony and leaving the Church, my life has improved in almost every respect.  If there is a downside to "abandoning my covenants" I have yet to see it.

[SkyRock]

5 hours ago, Ipod Touch said:

I took a break from Church and never returned.  I don't regret this choice.

Since leaving the LDS Church:

* My income has more than doubled

* I have gotten married and have had several beautiful children

* I finally completed my masters degree by taking an accelerated weekend program on Saturday and Sunday

* I have lost over 80 lbs and my bloodwork has never been better

Are these things due to leaving the LDS Church?  No.  Claiming that would be stupid.

But what I have learned is that "blessings" are not constrained to being faithful to the LDS Church.  Since losing my testimony and leaving the Church, my life has improved in almost every respect.  If there is a downside to "abandoning my covenants" I have yet to see it.

If you have left the church, why are you posting on an LDS blog?  

[CA Steve]

1 hour ago, SkyRock said:

If you have left the church, why are you posting on an LDS blog?  

I didn't realize this forum was intended to have posts only from active LDS.

Edited June 14, 2022 by CA Steve

[smac97]

9 hours ago, Rain said:

Quote

Back in 2015 Jana Riess did this: A year off from Mormonism

We talked about the above article on this board: Taking A "sabbatical" From Activity In The Church

For myself, I find the notion of "taking a break" from one's covenants to be inherently problematic.  I could no more blow off my obligations to God than I could blow off my obligations to my wife and children.

I don't think people who are "taking a break" are necessarily "blowing off covenants".  There's a whole range of what it can mean and for many it will be after much serious prayer and study.  It's really going to be a case by case basis.

I dunno.  I think it's fairly reasonable to surmise that "taking a break" means things like

A) not attending Church services / keeping the Sabbath (D&C 59:9, D&C 20:75, Moroni 6:5-6),

B) not partaking of the Sacrament (D&C 20:75),

C) not serving in a calling in the Church (Psalm 100:2; Mosiah 2:18, Ephesians 4:16),

D) not paying tithes and offerings (Gen. 28:22, Malachi 3:8-11, D&C 119:3–4),

E) not attending the temple and maintaining the covenants we make there, 

F) not "stand{ing} as witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death" (Mosiah 18:9), and so on.

Some or all of the constraints in the Word of Wisdom are also often disregarded (virtually all of my friends and family who have left activity/observance behind have left the WoW partly or entirely behind as well).

"Taking a break" seems to necessarily require abandonment of some, and likely many, of the covenants we have made.

Of course, many who leave activity/observance continue to carry on with maintaining some elements of the "weightier matters of the law," such as taking care of family, serving others, living honestly, working hard, etc.  I am certainly glad of that. 

That said, the exhortation about weightier matters carries within it a rebuttal of the "taking a break" philosophy: 

Quote

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

"If ye love me, keep my commandments" (John 14:15) has great significance to me.  Covenants are not intended to be matters of convenience, to be set aside or disregarded at the personal preference of the individual. 

Again, a comparison to my obligations to my wife and children is, for me, apt.  Is there any circumstance under which I could justify "taking a break" from the covenants I have made to my wife?  From the obligations I owe to her?  And to our children?  I just can't wrap my head around that.  Similarly, I cannot conceptualize "taking a break" from the covenants I have made to God.  Nor can I equivocate and rationalize such "taking a break" behavior as being within - as you put it - "a whole range of what it can mean" to keep covenants.  I retain my agency, but I don't have the ability to re-define the commandments to suit my personal preferences.  So I can't donate money to a political or charitable organization of my choosing and call it "tithing."  I cannot let my eye wander and call it fidelity to my wife.  I cannot ignore my duties to my children and still say I am a good father.  I cannot abuse harmful/addictive substances and call it keeping the Word of Wisdom.  I can replace Sabbath observances with my preferred relaxation methods and call it keeping the Sabbath day holy.

In short, I cannot pick and choose.  I certainly need to focus on the "weightier matters of the law," but I cannot do so at the expense of the day-to-day observances and obligations that are also a part of my covenant relationship with God.  "And not to leave the other undone..."

9 hours ago, Rain said:

Quote

I mean, I guess I could do that, but that would materially diminish me, particularly if I were to do so in a calculated way.  In the immortal words of Marilla Cuthbert (of Anne of Green Gables fame) : "God does not want you for a fair-weather friend."  We are, instead, commanded to be vigilant and constant in our devotions:

We can't really assume the couple is drinking luke warm water.  It’s possible that after study and prayer they decide it would be a good time to take a break from the hot water and try the cold water.  

Revelations 3:16 isn't a reference to "the couple."  it is a reference to God.  See, e.g., here:

Quote

Revelation 3:15–16. “I Would Thou Wert Cold or Hot”

Hot springs at Hierapolis, a short distance north of Laodicea, sent steaming waters into the streams that flowed southward. Those waters were still lukewarm when they reached Laodicea (see Revelation 3:15–16). Jesus Christ, who is “the faithful and true witness” (Revelation 3:14), described Church members in Laodicea as lukewarm. Lukewarm Saints can be described as “not valiant in the testimony of Jesus” (D&C 76:79). President Gordon B. Hinckley (1910–2008) taught that since the Church is either true or it is false, one cannot logically adopt a “lukewarm” position toward it:

“The book of Revelation declares: ‘I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

“‘So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth’ (Revelation 3:15–16). …

“Each of us has to face the matter—either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the Church and kingdom of God, or it is nothing” (“Loyalty,” Ensign or Liahona, May 2003, 60).

I have previously addressed this "either/or" dichotomy as some length.  See here:

Quote

I've been thinking lately about some remarks that various leaders of the Church have made that can be construed as a sort of all-or-nothing approach to the Restored Gospel.  Some of these have previously been collected by Tacenda here (emphases added):

Quote

“If we have the truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not the truth, it ought to be harmed.”
—President J. Reuben Clark

“He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no middle ground.”
—Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, Pages 188-189

“Our whole strength rests on the validity of that [first] vision. It either occurred or it did not occur. If it did not, then this work is a fraud. If it did, then it is the most important and wonderful work under the heavens.”
—President Gordon B. Hinckley

“Each of us has to face the matter — either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the church and kingdom of God, or it is nothing.”
—President Gordon B. Hinckley

“Well, it’s either true or false. If it’s false, we’re engaged in a great fraud. If it’s true, it’s the most important thing in the world. Now, that’s the whole picture. It is either right or wrong, true or false, fraudulent or true. And that’s exactly where we stand, with a conviction in our hearts that it is true: that Joseph went into the [Sacred] Grove; that he saw the Father and the Son; that he talked with them; that Moroni came; that the Book of Mormon was translated from the plates; that the priesthood was restored by those who held it anciently. That’s our claim. That’s where we stand, and that’s where we fall, if we fall. But we don’t. We just stand secure in that faith.”
—President Gordon B. Hinckley

“Let me quote a very powerful comment from President Ezra Taft Benson, who said, “The Book of Mormon is the keystone of [our] testimony. Just as the arch crumbles if the keystone is removed, so does all the Church stand or fall with the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. The enemies of the Church understand this clearly. This is why they go to such great lengths to try to disprove the Book of Mormon, for if it can be discredited, the Prophet Joseph Smith goes with it. So does our claim to priesthood keys, and revelation, and the restored Church…”

“…It sounds like a 'sudden death' proposition to me. Either the Book of Mormon is what the Prophet Joseph said it is or this Church and its founder are false, fraudulent, a deception from the first instance onward.

“Either Joseph Smith was the prophet he said he was, who, after seeing the Father and the Son, later beheld the angel Moroni, repeatedly heard counsel from his lips, eventually receiving at his hands a set of ancient gold plates which he then translated according to the gift and power of God—or else he did not. And if he did not, in the spirit of President Benson’s comment, he is not entitled to retain even the reputation of New England folk hero or well-meaning young man or writer of remarkable fiction. No, and he is not entitled to be considered a great teacher or a quintessential American prophet or the creator of great wisdom literature. If he lied about the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, he is certainly none of those.

“I am suggesting that we make exactly that same kind of do-or-die, bold assertion about the restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the divine origins of the Book of Mormon. We have to. Reason and rightness require it. Accept Joseph Smith as a prophet and the book as the miraculously revealed and revered word of the Lord it is or else consign both man and book to Hades for the devastating deception of it all, but let’s not have any bizarre middle ground about the wonderful contours of a young boy’s imagination or his remarkable facility for turning a literary phrase. That is an unacceptable position to take—morally, literarily, historically, or theologically.”
—Jeffrey R. Holland, “True or False,” Liahona, June 1996

I think I understand the sentiment underlying these statements.  They are intended to dissuade us from taking a superficial or wishy-washy or indifferent approach to the Restored Gospel.

However, these days we have the Internet, and with it comes immediate and at-your-fingertips access to any and every opinion under the sun.  Also accessible are "Big Lists" (as Jeff Lindsay put it) that itemize controversies involving, and errors and mis-steps made by, past and present members of the Church (particularly its leaders).  Jeremy Runnells' "Letter to a CES Director" is perhaps the most well-known example of this.  Bill Reel is another example.

I wonder if we are seeing a glitch in the truth-seeking process envisioned by the leaders of the Church (as quoted above).  I think they contemplated that someone investigating/evaluating the merits of the claims of the LDS Church would give those claims a fair hearing.  This would, I think, include the basics we have all been taught: read the Book of Mormon and other scriptures, "study {them} out" (per D&C 9:7-9), pray about them with "real intent" and with faith and effort (as contemplated in Moroni 10:3-5, 2 Nephi 31:13, James 1:6, and so on), nurture the beginnings of faith through obedience and service to others (per Alma 32, Mosiah 3 and 4, etc.).  The anticipated result would include impressions and promptings of the Spirit, followed by further study and effort and obedience.  This cyclical effort would then result build up, shall we say, "spiritual momentum" that at once makes the journey in life more manageable, and also keeps us moving forward despite difficulties and obstacles.

I think the above quotes from General Authorities were given to us in response to some of us becoming perhaps a bit inattentive, even halfhearted, in the fostering and maintaining of our faith and devotion.  Apparently some were even adopting what Elder Holland called a "bizarre middle ground" (I think he may have had in mind the "Inspired Fiction" or comparable have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too alternative explanations for the Book of Mormon and the Restoration).

I think covenants made to God are extremely important.  We all of us screw up here and there, which is why repentance is such a treasured gift.  But to decide, with deliberation and calculation, to set aside and disregard all or parts of the covenants we have made to God?  Nope.  Can't do it.  Can't condone or excuse or ratify or endorse it, either (if asked).

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited June 14, 2022 by smac97

[bluebell]

10 hours ago, Rain said:

I don't think people who are "taking a break" are necessarily "blowing off covenants".  There's a whole range of what it can mean and for many it will be after much serious prayer and study.  It's really going to be a case by case basis.

We can't really assume the couple is drinking luke warm water.  It’s possible that after study and prayer they decide it would be a good time to take a break from the hot water and try the cold water.  

 

 

As there's no real reason to judge these people (we have no authority over them and they are posing no 'threat' to us), I agree with you about making assumptions or assuming the worst.  There are some who take a break who do break covenants and others who don't.  We can't tell with this family so there's no charitable reason to assign sins to them.

[LoudmouthMormon]

7 hours ago, Ipod Touch said:

I took a break from Church and never returned.  I don't regret this choice.

...

But what I have learned is that "blessings" are not constrained to being faithful to the LDS Church.  Since losing my testimony and leaving the Church, my life has improved in almost every respect.  If there is a downside to "abandoning my covenants" I have yet to see it.

Glad to hear things are working out for you.  I took a 6 year break when I turned 18, because I had concluded I never believed in the first place, and I could finally get away with it.  I can't really say life was better because of the decision, but I don't think it was any worse.   I had LDS and non-LDS circles of friends, both accepted me.  The LDS folks did have something I lacked.  I was envious of their belief, being able to have a worldview so soundly resting on a solid rock, that it would support whatever weight they placed on it.  I had nothing I could be so certain about.  I was quiet, hesitant, and searching in vain for a similar rock.  In my early '20's, I became determined to find out for myself if things were true or not.  I came within a few credit hours of a minor in philosophy.  That did absolute jack squat for helping me find answers, but it did help clarify the questions.  I spent a few years taking the Book of Mormon challenge, with its hoops to jump through, and its promise to grant me an unmistakable witness of the truth.

Did it work?  Well, fast forward a couple of decades, and I notice my screen name ain't Ipod Touch.   

Edited June 14, 2022 by LoudmouthMormon

[Saint Bonaventure]

I learn a ton from these little threads. 

At my parish it's kind of difficult to know if a family is drifting away. They might be going to Saturday evening or Sunday morning Mass, maybe they caught Spanish Mass, etc.

 

[SkyRock]

1 hour ago, CA Steve said:

I didn't realize this forum was intended to have posts only from active LDS.

Your non sequitur doesn't follow my question.

Why would anyone who is gone from the church spend anytime on a small forum dedicated to Mormon Dialogue?

Why not just be gone? 

[Meadowchik]

20 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I've known a lot of people who have taken a break. Whether or not they go back completely depends upon how much loss they feel from not attending; loss of fellowship/friendship, loss of spirituality, loss of direction etc.

If they leave and there is no loss then they naturally question why bother going back. 

Not to mention spiritual benefits...some can genuinely feel closer to God, and/or more aligned with their values, more moral, more blessed, living in more integrity.

It's common for leaving to be categorized as a step away from righteousness, but it can be the opposite from some--as in their consciences--a step closer to righteousness.

 

Edited June 14, 2022 by Meadowchik

[Meadowchik]

7 minutes ago, SkyRock said:

Your non sequitur doesn't follow my question.

Why would anyone who is gone from the church spend anytime on a small forum dedicated to Mormon Dialogue?

Why not just be gone? 

Why not stick around and talk about it?

Or why not even seek out opportunities to discuss Mormonism?

This forum is not just for believers. Non-members and ex-members are welcome.

Do you want to imply  they're not welcome?

[Rain]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

I dunno.  I think it's fairly reasonable to surmise that "taking a break" means things like

A) not attending Church services / keeping the Sabbath (D&C 59:9, D&C 20:75, Moroni 6:5-6),

Which we all did in 2020.  If we count what we did at home we have no reason to assume that this couple or anyone else won't do it as well.

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

B) not partaking of the Sacrament (D&C 20:75),

Which many women and those who did not have the priesthood did in 2020.  And what we do when there is stake or general conference.  There is no covenant expressing how often we have it. And someone can be baptized and die without ever taking it.  It is important of course, but we make no covenant to have it. 

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

C) not serving in a calling in the Church (Psalm 100:2; Mosiah 2:18, Ephesians 4:16),

I've gone several times without a church calling where I was released and not given one. I've not felt right about callings given to me and my bishop thought over it again and felt the same.  There is no covenant to have a calling.

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

D) not paying tithes and offerings (Gen. 28:22, Malachi 3:8-11, D&C 119:3–4),

We have someone right here in this thread who hasn't gone to church in years, but still pays tithing.  We can't judge what "taking a break" means.

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

E) not attending the temple and maintaining the covenants we make there, 

We don't even know if the couple has gone to the temple.

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

F) not "stand{ing} as witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death" (Mosiah 18:9), and so on.

Anyone can do that.  I know many people in various churches and out of churches that do that.  

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Some or all of the constraints in the Word of Wisdom are also often disregarded (virtually all of my friends and family who have left activity/observance behind have left the WoW partly or entirely behind as well).

"Taking a break" seems to necessarily require abandonment of some, and likely many, of the covenants we have made.

Of course, many who leave activity/observance continue to carry on with maintaining some elements of the "weightier matters of the law," such as taking care of family, serving others, living honestly, working hard, etc.  I am certainly glad of that. 

That said, the exhortation about weightier matters carries within it a rebuttal of the "taking a break" philosophy: 

"If ye love me, keep my commandments" (John 14:15) has great significance to me.  Covenants are not intended to be matters of convenience, to be set aside or disregarded at the personal preference of the individual. 

Again, a comparison to my obligations to my wife and children is, for me, apt.  Is there any circumstance under which I could justify "taking a break" from the covenants I have made to my wife?  From the obligations I owe to her?  And to our children?  I just can't wrap my head around that.  Similarly, I cannot conceptualize "taking a break" from the covenants I have made to God.  Nor can I equivocate and rationalize such "taking a break" behavior as being within - as you put it - "a whole range of what it can mean" to keep covenants.  I retain my agency, but I don't have the ability to re-define the commandments to suit my personal preferences.  So I can't donate money to a political or charitable organization of my choosing and call it "tithing."  I cannot let my eye wander and call it fidelity to my wife.  I cannot ignore my duties to my children and still say I am a good father.  I cannot abuse harmful/addictive substances and call it keeping the Word of Wisdom.  I can replace Sabbath observances with my preferred relaxation methods and call it keeping the Sabbath day holy.

In short, I cannot pick and choose.  I certainly need to focus on the "weightier matters of the law," but I cannot do so at the expense of the day-to-day observances and obligations that are also a part of my covenant relationship with God.  "And not to leave the other undone..."

Revelations 3:16 isn't a reference to "the couple."  it is a reference to God.  See, e.g., here:

I have previously addressed this "either/or" dichotomy as some length.  See here:

I think covenants made to God are extremely important.  We all of us screw up here and there, which is why repentance is such a treasured gift.  But to decide, with deliberation and calculation, to set aside and disregard all or parts of the covenants we have made to God?  Nope.  Can't do it.  Can't condone or excuse or ratify or endorse it, either (if asked).

Thanks,

-Smac

This thread goes well for the Sunday School lesson this week.  The Lord looks on the heart.  While many will just go out and go against everything in the church, others will "take a break" only after seeking God's council.

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Why not stick around and talk about it?

Or why not even seek out opportunities to discuss Mormonism?

This forum is not just for believers. Non-members and ex-members are welcome.

Do you want to imply  they're not welcome?

I am understanding him to say if someone has moved on from the church, why would they even be interested in discussing it…but some people like history and studying cultures they have no personal contact with and it could be a similar ‘academic’ type of interest at this point.  They could be here for the same reason those who have never been members might be here….curiosity, a desire to hear others’ experiences and ideas to challenge oneself, etc.

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, Rain said:

I've gone several times without a church calling where I was released and not given one. I've not felt right about callings given to me and my bishop thought over it again and felt the same.  There is no covenant to have a calling.

I haven’t had a calling for several years now.  Haven’t attended the temple and rarely get to church.  Have no problem getting my recommend.  I have never been asked about taking the Sacrament, which is not often because it feels so very off when not done in communion with other Saints.  Makes it a pure joy when I do take it though.  I do quite a bit of witnessing.

Edited June 14, 2022 by Calm