BYU Student Flashes Rainbow Flag at Graduation

[Calm]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

It goes beyond a mere lack of integrity. In the doctrinal framework of the Latter-day Saints, breaking sacred covenants associated with membership in the Church is a extremely serious matter. 

And how is their breaking their sacred covenants associated with their membership in their church not as bad?

Edited April 30, 2022 by Calm

[Scott Lloyd]

14 minutes ago, Senator said:

 

Lovely

Cheap shot sarcasm.  

Edited April 30, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

And how is their breaking their sacred covenants not as bad?

Apples and oranges. 
 

is shifting membership from one Protestant church to another, or from the Catholicism to Greek Orthodoxy conceptually the same as renouncing one’s membership in the restored Church? I’m not convinced that it’s comparable. 

Edited April 30, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Apples and oranges. 
 

is shifting membership from one Protestant church to another, or from the Catholicism to Greek Orthodoxy conceptually the same as renouncing one’s membership in the restored Church? I’m not convinced that it’s comparable. 

I am talking about them converting to the restored Church.  Many nonmember students convert to our faith if they attend BYU.  My roommate was one of them.  I told the missionaries I thought it would be boring with so few investigators.  He told me they had one of the highest baptism rates in the entire Church.  Constantly teaching.

Such students are not kicked out.  They are celebrated by other students.  The administration gives them a cut in tuition as they now qualify for the member rate.  They are not treated as unworthy to attend even though they are sacred covenant breakers in many cases.

The former nonmembers, many have made sacred covenants, eternal covenants.  They  made them with God.  Catholic covenants are massively sacred to the point divorce is rejected for the marriage covenant.  How is a Catholic—my roommate had been Catholic—converting to Mormonism not breaking comparable sacred covenants?  Or at least doing so in their own mind/attempting to break the covenant since as I understand it the Catholic baptismal covenant is untreatable in their doctrine.

My niece in law was told by her father he had rather my nephew had raped her rather than converted her, he saw the breaking with what he believed was Christianity, the turning her back on Christ, the rejection of her sacred baptismal covenant as so evil as to damn her for eternity to actual hellfire and burnings.

Edited April 30, 2022 by Calm

[SeekingUnderstanding]

11 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Apples and oranges. 
 

is shifting membership from one Protestant church to another, or from the Catholicism to Greek Orthodoxy conceptually the same as renouncing one’s membership in the restored Church? I’m not convinced that it’s comparable. 

Growing up in the south I can 100 percent confirm that converting to Mormonism was seen as at least as bad as you describe. I’m acquainted with a closeted atheist “Muslim” that is not out to their family because its viewed at least that badly. I wish it was surprising that such examples are unknown to you. 

Edited April 30, 2022 by SeekingUnderstanding

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

https://honorcode.byu.edu/ecclesiastical-endorsements
 

 

Atheists…could be endorsed by Latter-day Saint leaders as mentioned above, not certain if it is automatic rejection. Maybe Seeking can share if this is direct knowledge or a conclusion of his due to no minister to provide an endorsement or something else.

You have to log in to see Endorsement applications, so can tell if “no religion” is an option or not. 

I am not aware of a specific prohibition, but requiring an “ecclesiastical” endorsement seems like a need not apply sign to me. 

[jkwilliams]

18 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Growing up in the south I can 100 percent confirm that converting to Mormonism was seen as at least as bad as you describe. I’m acquainted with a closeted atheist “Muslim” that is not out to their family because its viewed at least that badly. I wish it was surprising that such examples are unknown to you. 

Simply put, God loves those who leave false religions and join the one true church. He is quite displeased with us wretched apostates who turn our backs on Him and everything good and praiseworthy in the world. 

[MiserereNobis]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

They have forsaken their faith and essentially become covenant breakers and apostates.

What covenant have they broken? (aren't covenants made in temples?)

[jkwilliams]

3 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

What covenant have they broken? (aren't covenants made in temples?)

Not the baptismal covenant. 

[ttribe]

2 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Not the baptismal covenant. 

Which most of us made when we were eight years old. Geesh.

[jkwilliams]

Just now, ttribe said:

Which most of us made when we were eight years old. Geesh.

All the more despicable to abandon our childlike faith. 

[MiserereNobis]

2 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Not the baptismal covenant. 

Baptism happens at age 8, right? I can’t imagine my childhood choices being held against me in such a way during my college years. It’s hard for me to imagine that I’m 20 years old and I’m being expelled from college because I’m changing my mind about something I did when I’m 8. 

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, MiserereNobis said:

Baptism happens at age 8, right? I can’t imagine my childhood choices being held against me in such a way during my college years. It’s hard for me to imagine that I’m 20 years old and I’m being expelled from college because I’m changing my mind about something I did when I’m 8. 

Indeed. But that seems to be what we’re being told. Again, not unhappy that my kids didn’t attend BYU. 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

What covenant have they broken? (aren't covenants made in temples?)

Baptism for sure if they resign or are excommunicated.  I suspect opinions vary on if they break covenants if they don’t resign or get kicked out  

If they have gone on missions or been married, depending on how you interpret the loss of faith affecting the covenant, it may vary. Do they break the covenant to live the Law of Chastity if they no longer believe the covenant is real/valid, or only if they commit one of the immoralities forbidden by it?

Edited April 30, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

32 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Simply put, God loves those who leave false religions and join the one true church. He is quite displeased with us wretched apostates who turn our backs on Him and everything good and praiseworthy in the world. 

I would like to see if that is Scott’s interpretation of the situation or if he views it differently. 

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Calm said:

I would like to see if that is Scott’s interpretation of the situation or if he views it differently. 

It’s certainly what I’ve been told before. I’m not speaking for Scott. 

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Baptism happens at age 8, right? I can’t imagine my childhood choices being held against me in such a way during my college years. It’s hard for me to imagine that I’m 20 years old and I’m being expelled from college because I’m changing my mind about something I did when I’m 8. 

Something that is often more a decision of the parents than the children at that time. But we renew our covenants weekly through the Sacrament, so we are not turning our backs on the covenant we made when we were 8, but the covenant we made when we last took the Sacrament as a believer, imo. 

Edited April 30, 2022 by Calm

[Vanguard]

6 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Baptism happens at age 8, right? I can’t imagine my childhood choices being held against me in such a way during my college years. It’s hard for me to imagine that I’m 20 years old and I’m being expelled from college because I’m changing my mind about something I did when I’m 8. 

It's not since you were 8. It's an affirmation you have made to your ecclesiastical leader within the previous year or two.

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

It’s certainly what I’ve been told before. I’m not speaking for Scott. 

It is one explanation I have heard as well.

[MiserereNobis]

11 minutes ago, Calm said:

Something that is often more a decision of the parents than the children at that time. But we renew our covenants weekly through the Sacrament, so we are not turning our backs on the covenant we made when we were 8, but the covenant we made when we last took the Sacrament as a believer, imo. 

Ok, that makes more sense. Still seems like a tough situation. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

Simply put, God loves those who leave false religions and join the one true church. He is quite displeased with us wretched apostates who turn our backs on Him and everything good and praiseworthy in the world. 

You forget “lack[ing] integrity”. 

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Which is why I would never recommend BYU to anyone and I hold the church and parents accountable for the undue pressure they put on their kids to attend a church school. 

I think there is a bit of a mixed message though. I suspect that the apostles are happy when kids go to other schools willingly and happily because the Church education system isn’t big enough to take everyone who “wants” to go. I think parents see it as ‘safer’ and some might try to push it the same way some parents push for missions in the hopes it will convert the child (or retain the conversion). Local church leaders might feel the same way. I served under one bishop who was almost desperate to get a teenager into a church school. Getting them away from their family for a while in a semi-structured environment was seen as a boon. The family was dysfunctional and the kid was holding onto their testimony but only barely and sticking around would probably not go well.

I do think there is a pressure to go to church schools coming from a less healthy and more possessive and controlling desire from some local leaders and (especially) parents.

[Calm]

18 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

think parents see it as ‘safer’ and some might try to push it the same way some parents push for missions in the hopes it will convert the child (or retain the conversion).

Or make it easier for them to fall in love with an active member. 

[Amulek]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

But young adults changing as they encounter new experiences is just standard human behaviour.  

I get that.

 

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It needs to be taken into account and not treated as wickedness or intentional apostasy [...].  

I don't think of it as wickedness or intentional apostasy; at least, not as a general rule - I suppose there could always be exceptions. 

 

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Making it the person’s choice to leave by increasing tuition and not kicking them out benefits the likely Latter-day Saint families of these students and helps keep antipathy from developing or at least moving students straight into antimormonism because they resent being forced into corners.  

How much of an increase are we talking about? Just to the (still heavily subsidized) non-member rate? Or to the completely unsubsidized cost?

In my mind, the point of subsidizing BYU so heavily, even for non-members, is to expose them to an environment where they may be positively influenced to join the church, and I don't see that really playing out the same way for members who have, during their time at BYU, affirmatively decided to leave the church. 

 

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I think I would become highly resentful if in my last year I went to the administration and informed them I wasn’t a believer anymore, but thought BYU was a good school and wanted to stay there, would continue to be supportive of the Church and was willing to pay nonmember fees, but was still kicked out. 

I know this isn't a perfect analogy, but I guess I kind of think of this like joining the armed services, attending one of the military academies for three years, and then quitting the military but expecting them to still let you finish out your degree at West Point (or wherever). And then being resentful when they tell you to go pound sand.*

*Technically, at that point, I believe what they actually tell you is that you now get to pay back your tuition and immediately go into active duty or face the consequences associated with being dishonorably discharged. 

 

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It is understandable to me why some lie and then understandable why they start to dislike the institution they see as forcing them to lie. It is a lose lose situation for the Church to kick them out or have them hiding. Disaffected members are more likely to make believing spouses make a choice or work harder to bring them out of the faith as well from what I have seen. A former believer who still appreciates what the Church has done for them personally is more likely to be supportive of believing spouses and let family attend.

Is the potential gain from allowing these disaffected members to remain outweigh the potential drain from having them stick around? I'm thinking mainly about them displacing other faithful members, but I suppose there's also a concern about their potential subversive influence over other students as well. 

I'll probably need to think about it more, but my initial inclination is that the scales probably tilt in favor of letting them go. 

 

[Hamba Tuhan]

35 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I suspect that the apostles are happy when kids go to other schools...

When I was studying in America, Pres Hinckley visited our university and spoke to us in a fireside on campus. I still remember how he began his talk: 'It is so good to see a group of Latter-day Saint young people doing what we wish all young Church members would do: pursue higher education at a public institution where you can be of use to the Lord'.

Of course, it was also Pres Hinckley who told my mission president (before his mission) that the Church was not interested in an offer to buy a small religious campus near DC in order to create a 'BYU-East'. He said they had no desire to replicate all the problems that already existed with the three BYU campuses, which they would happily sell off if there were buyers.

Edited April 30, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan