Some questions and thoughts about why people leave the Church.

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, CA Steve said:

I don't believe I have ever met anyone who believed they were actually walking away from Christ's Church, have you?

Yes, I have. Some who left because they were offended by a leader or by another member, others because they could not obey some commandments (the Word of Wisdom in particular)…..among other reasons. 

Edited March 4, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[JLHPROF]

10 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

Yes, unless you're claiming that people can be held accountable for that which they do not know.

I thought we were speaking of those who knew then changed their minds?

I don't believe God punishes for ignorance, but he does describe consequences for rejecting truth, giving up faith, and going back on light previously received.  I don't think you can always say "I didn't know".

I also believe a man is saved no faster than he gains these truths, so people are accountable for their own progression.

Edited March 4, 2022 by JLHPROF

[HappyJackWagon]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

No.  Is ignorance of an error an excuse?

If the Church is indeed Christ's Church restored to the earth does their lack of that belief excuse the rejection of it?

Is ignorance an excuse? Yes. Some times.

Does lack of belief in the church excuse rejection of it?  If belief and testimony comes through the spirit and the spirit doesn't testify of truth, then yes. If it is by the fruits that people might know the goodness of the church and gain testimony via the spirit, and the individual can't discern good fruits sufficient to believe, then yes, that person's lack of believe is excuse to reject it.

I suspect that God will be exceedingly merciful in judgement of mankind which is good since any way you slice it, the vast majority of his children will have been wrong about choosing a church or following him in exactly the way he would like.

[let’s roll]

58 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I suspect that God will be exceedingly merciful in judgement of mankind which is good since any way you slice it, the vast majority of his children will have been wrong about choosing a church or following him in exactly the way he would like.

I agree.  And judgment in the context of exaltation, I believe, is more about what we are willing and able to do post “judgment” than what we have done pre “judgment.”

At that judgment when we are invited to join Him in His work, knowing what we know at that time about how difficult and painful that work can be, I believe many will demur, not willing to suffer Godly sorrow and not confident in their ability to exercise Godly power, and God will judge the hearts of those who don’t demur...some, I believe, will have motives akin to those of Jesus in our premortal life, others motives more akin to Satan.  He will, as He always has, know the difference.

[HappyJackWagon]

43 minutes ago, Lazarus 61 said:

I believe we will all be held accountable for what we believe and do not believe.  And for everything else we do and do not do.

The words "I don't know" will not help us anymore than they help a child who says "I don't know" when caught doing whatever that child is doing.  The fact will be that the child did do it.  To believe it or not is your choice.

Sounds pretty harsh. Throw the book at 'em, I say. Make 'em pay  

[Chum]

20 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Actually, that interpretation is incorrect. The different types of ground represent different categories of people with their varying propensities for receptiveness. The seed represents the gospel message. The seed is always good, but whether it sprouts, grows and flourishes depends on the ground on which it is sown. 

Okay. I can work with that. Ground is incapable of being anything other than what it is and the only change it can undergo will be entirely due to external forces.

That is how ground works. Please enjoy this diploma.

[Nemesis]

We’ve been told on many occasions this site’s moderation leads people out of the church.  Go figure.

 

Nemesis 

[MrShorty]

3 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I suspect that God will be exceedingly merciful in judgement of mankind which is good since any way you slice it, the vast majority of his children will have been wrong about choosing a church or following him in exactly the way he would like.

+1. This line of thinking is part of what has me leaning towards a more universalist bent. All of the different ways that we are capable of getting something wrong. And, with all of the ways that discernment can go wrong and all of the different influences for and against goodness, and then God has to bring a perfect blend of justice and mercy to all of this, I sometimes feel like there will be very few if any who really find themselves on the left hand of God. Christ's atonement seems to be carrying much more than the lion's share of our salvation and exaltation.

[sunstoned]

7 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Not if it's actually Christ's Church.  If it really is then there's no difference.

Even if its origins are divine, it is still a man made organization, the other is the savior of man kind.  

Edited March 4, 2022 by sunstoned

[Chum]

37 minutes ago, Nemesis said:

We’ve been told on many occasions this site’s moderation leads people out of the church.  Go figure.

This was reason #4 for me but I can bump it up.

[Teancum]

On 3/3/2022 at 7:26 PM, JLHPROF said:

That may be the method, but it isn't (or shouldn't be) the goal.

You can never, eternities without end, convert another soul.  You can never build a testimony using marketing.

To belabor the marketing analogy you can convince them to visit your business but the decision to patronize the establishment is theirs, as is the decision to give repeat business.

There was a time missionaries shook the dust off when rejected.  It wasn't about selling the Church.  It's about leading people to Christ.  They have to want to follow and choose to stay on the path.  If they reject it then at some point it's dust shaking time.

Well maybe your should write a letter to the Church leadership since the spend a lot of $$ of marketing strategy and advice. 

 

But....yes I agree that marketing does not convert. IT just may open the door.

[Teancum]

On 3/3/2022 at 10:10 PM, carbon dioxide said:

Success is not measured in numbers when it comes to missionary work or the gospel.  Noah did a lot of preaching but few people took him seriously.  That does not mean Noah was a bad missionary.   He did his job, he got his eternal reward and those that did not listen or mocked him lost in the end.  It is true in our day.  Rejecting the church only harms those who reject it in the long run.  All people die at some point.  The real rewards and consequences of accepting or rejecting the restored gospel begins at death when the spirit and body separate.  The Book of Mormon speaks of the eventual end of those who reject the church.  Our day is just a rerun of what has happened previously and the results will be no different in the end.

Well when I was a missionary my MP measured success based on numbers. I bet many others could say the same. And when the numbers were good the church seemed fine playing that up as well.

[Teancum]

14 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Not if it's actually Christ's Church.  If it really is then there's no difference.

Such a narrow minded Mormon response.  Arrogant as well.

[sunstoned]

7 hours ago, Nemesis said:

We’ve been told on many occasions this site’s moderation leads people out of the church.  Go figure.

 

Nemesis 

I've heard that scary avatars make some people go inactive. 😀

[JLHPROF]

9 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Such a narrow minded Mormon response.  Arrogant as well.

😃 I said "if".

 

[SwedishLDS]

I am familiar with a lot of the posts on this forum, but I would say that fundamentally the world has become more and more detached morally from the gospel teachings and church teachings. Family, church and religion in general doesn’t have the same strength as it used to, and religiousness and procreation numbers are decreasing worldwide. 

While a member in the developed world probably won’t experience the same physical challenges as the pioneers in the sense of the big trek west, starvation and physical struggles; they will however have more spiritual resistance in some ways, after all we live side by side by non religious people all our life, we spend time on the internet where non religious themes dominate, and we live in a world that focuses on temporal success, individualism over family duty, and religiousness is to a large degree (this depends a lot on where you live, but for me as an active lds member in Sweden it is certainly the case) considered foolishness and the same as believing in santa clause, something for stupid people.

Just feel blessed you live in Utah, where you can at least find wife that is a member. Still struggling myself.

[SwedishLDS]

also pornography and crudeness, forgot to mention that, is everywhere. One of the biggest struggles for many members

[bluebell]

2 minutes ago, SwedishLDS said:

I am familiar with a lot of the posts on this forum, but I would say that fundamentally the world has become more and more detached morally from the gospel teachings and church teachings. Family, church and religion in general doesn’t have the same strength as it used to, and religiousness and procreation numbers are decreasing worldwide. 

While a member in the developed world probably won’t experience the same physical challenges as the pioneers in the sense of the big trek west, starvation and physical struggles; they will however have more spiritual resistance in some ways, after all we live side by side by non religious people all our life, we spend time on the internet where non religious themes dominate, and we live in a world that focuses on temporal success, individualism over family duty, and religiousness is to a large degree (this depends a lot on where you live, but for me as an active lds member in Sweden it is certainly the case) considered foolishness and the same as believing in santa clause, something for stupid people.

Just feel blessed you live in Utah, where you can at least find wife that is a member. Still struggling myself.

I agree, I think that the world makes it a lot harder to be believing, especially in some ways as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (after 1890 anyway).

Welcome to the board.   

[SwedishLDS]

2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I agree, I think that the world makes it a lot harder to be believing, especially in some ways as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (after 1890 anyway).

Welcome to the board.   

thank you. I feel very blessed and happy for what Christ and the church members has done for me over the years. I served my mission in Colorado and live in Sweden

[HappyJackWagon]

2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I agree, I think that the world makes it a lot harder to be believing, especially in some ways as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (after 1890 anyway).

Welcome to the board.   

I think the world makes it harder to be trusting of other people to the point that we can place faith in their message and promises. People are unreliable. It's always been that way but the internet, mass/social media makes it more evident because we don't hide out in our own little bubble of a small town or a specific congregation. With so many liars and scoundrels out there constantly feeding misinformation across media which then bleeds into our daily interactions in real life, it becomes extremely natural to be skeptical of the grandiose claims others make, especially when there may not be any evidence of those claims, or worse, evidence that they are false.

[bluebell]

14 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I think the world makes it harder to be trusting of other people to the point that we can place faith in their message and promises. People are unreliable. It's always been that way but the internet, mass/social media makes it more evident because we don't hide out in our own little bubble of a small town or a specific congregation. With so many liars and scoundrels out there constantly feeding misinformation across media which then bleeds into our daily interactions in real life, it becomes extremely natural to be skeptical of the grandiose claims others make, especially when there may not be any evidence of those claims, or worse, evidence that they are false.

I agree. I also think that skepticism is celebrated a bit in our culture, and that some even wear it as a badge of honor or use it to define who they are, when that didn't use to be the case to the same extent.

It's never fun to be wrong, and being wrong because you trusted someone who was deceiving you has its own special stigma.  I think there is a lot of "reject you before you get me" going on that didn't use to be.

[Hamba Tuhan]

6 hours ago, SwedishLDS said:

Just feel blessed you live in Utah, where you can at least find wife that is a member. Still struggling myself.

I worked in Utah for a bit right before moving here (not America). It didn't help. My singles ward was literally 3 men for every 1 woman.

[mrmarklin]

For you single guys:  I personally know several guys who converted their wives before they married them. The church offers a lot to women. Mainly, dependable husbands. 🙂

[Hamba Tuhan]

17 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

I personally know several guys who converted their wives before they married them.

That's the only way! I was in a training meeting in America at one point, and the visiting authority shared with us the Church's internal stats on conversion of spouses over the lifetime of the marriage (based on the US and Canada): 15 per cent for non-member husbands but only 7 per cent for non-member wives.

Quote

The church offers a lot to women. Mainly, dependable husbands. 

As my non-member mates have repeatedly pointed out to me, Latter-day Saint men are culturally primed to be what women often describe as 'ideal' husbands in multiple ways (hands-on with kids, family-centred, happy to share in household responsibilities, less aggressive, etc.).

That doesn't always manifest as genuine interest, however, at least according to my experience. Of course, I have lived most of my adult life in areas where Latter-day females were few and far between. Even in my American mission, conversion rates for males were double those for females.

Edited March 16, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[Scott Lloyd]

7 hours ago, SwedishLDS said:

I am familiar with a lot of the posts on this forum, but I would say that fundamentally the world has become more and more detached morally from the gospel teachings and church teachings. Family, church and religion in general doesn’t have the same strength as it used to, and religiousness and procreation numbers are decreasing worldwide. 

While a member in the developed world probably won’t experience the same physical challenges as the pioneers in the sense of the big trek west, starvation and physical struggles; they will however have more spiritual resistance in some ways, after all we live side by side by non religious people all our life, we spend time on the internet where non religious themes dominate, and we live in a world that focuses on temporal success, individualism over family duty, and religiousness is to a large degree (this depends a lot on where you live, but for me as an active lds member in Sweden it is certainly the case) considered foolishness and the same as believing in santa clause, something for stupid people.

Just feel blessed you live in Utah, where you can at least find wife that is a member. Still struggling myself.

Not sure whether you are of the age when this would apply, but does the Church still put on the Festinord event in Scandinavia?

Edited March 16, 2022 by Scott Lloyd