Some questions and thoughts about why people leave the Church.

[Chum]

9 hours ago, kimpearson said:

In reading the discussions about why people leave the Church, there seems to be two broad viewpoints.  One is that the numbers haven't changed that much and most of these people left because they either had no faith or weren't really converted in the first place.  The other viewpoint is that members are leaving because of a loss of faith over historical issue, social issues, disagreement with leaders actions and feeling like they don't fit.  That the number of people leaving the Church is increasing.

Most members I know who left, were from my ward. Most of them left because my ward sucked. For decades.

As near as I can tell, it's an unsolvable problem.

[CV75]

8 hours ago, sunstoned said:

I am going to respectfully disagree.  I know many who have left the church who have experienced the reality of the restored gospel.  If people here are really interested in getting a good cross section of reasons why members leave, then I suggest visiting the exmormon subreddit (www.reddit.com/r/exmormon).  There are exit stores ranging from teenagers to retired grandparents.  From the newly baptized to Stake Presidents and Bishops who have been active for five decades. The reasons they leave are diverse, but almost never trivial.  These are for the most part knowledgeable people who were very committed.  Many of these stories a heart breaking.  It would be a mistake to discount them or categorize them some stupid and offensive category like lazy learner, unruly children or lax disciples.   If things were really that cut and dried, then embarrassing failures like Swedish rescue would have turned out much different.

As for the OP question of velocity of departures, who knows.  I think the evidence points to a decline. And I believe the brethren are very aware of this, and have taken steps to address it.  Lowing the mission are is one example.  The subreddit I mentioned above current has 228,000 registered members.  When I signed up five years ago, there were 60K registered users. I know its anecdotal, but that is just one forum.  Yes, people are leaving, and they are leaving in large numbers.

I agree that the reasons are not trivial, and are heartbreaking; life is abjectly difficult.

John Taylor, the third President of the Church, said: “I heard the Prophet Joseph say, in speaking to the Twelve on one occasion: ‘You will have all kinds of trials to pass through. And it is quite as necessary for you to be tried as it was for Abraham and other men of God, and (said he) God will feel after you, and He will take hold of you and wrench your very heart strings, and if you cannot stand it you will not be fit for an inheritance in the Celestial Kingdom of God.’ … Joseph Smith never had many months of peace after he received the truth, and finally he was murdered in Carthage jail.” --  (John Taylor, Deseret News: Semi-Weekly, Aug. 21, 1883, p. 1.)  https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-19?lang=eng

I understand this quote may come across as condemning and judgmental towards those who leave, but it does acknowledge that the pressures one can face in life are extreme. Also, consider the audience, and that those who are thus "not fit for an inheritance in the Celestial Kingdom of God" from this view have already chosen the inheritance they are willing to enjoy. Elder Uchtdorf perhaps put this a bit more palatably for modern ears:

"Sometimes we assume it is because they have been offended or lazy or sinful. Actually, it is not that simple. In fact, there is not just one reason that applies to the variety of situations.

"Some of our dear members struggle for years with the question whether they should separate themselves from the Church.

"It may break our hearts when their journey takes them away from the Church we love and the truth we have found, but we honor their right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their own conscience, just as we claim that privilege for ourselves." https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2013/10/come-join-with-us?lang=eng

[Metis_LDS]

28 minutes ago, CV75 said:

John Taylor, the third President of the Church, said: “I heard the Prophet Joseph say, in speaking to the Twelve on one occasion: ‘You will have all kinds of trials to pass through.

This is John Taylor own words about himself with Joseph at Cartage when the shooting started.

 I was struck by a ball from the door about midway of my thigh, which struck the bone and flattened out almost to the size of a quarter of a dollar, and then passed on through the fleshy part to within about half an inch of the outside. I think some prominent nerve must have been severed or injured, for as soon as the ball struck me, I fell like a bird when shot, or an ox when struck by a butcher, and lost entirely and instantaneously all power of action or locomotion. I fell upon the window sill, and cried out, "I am shot!" Not possessing any power to move, I felt myself falling outside of the window, but immediately I fell inside, from some, at that time, unknown cause. When I struck the floor, my animation seemed restored, as I have seen it sometimes in squirrels and birds after being shot. As soon as I felt the power of motion I crawled under the bed, which was in a corner of the room, not far from the window where I received my wound. While on my way and under the bed, I was wounded in three other places; one ball entered a little below the left knee, and never was extracted; another entered the forepart of my left arm, a little above the wrist, and, passing down by the joint, lodged in the fleshy part of my hand, about midway, a little above the upper joint of my little finger. Another struck me on the fleshy part of my left hip and tore away the flesh as large as my hand, dashing the mangled fragments of flesh and blood against the wall.

In Salt Lake city as an Apostle John Taylor was extremely poor,            I have never found what the cause was, maybe he could not work     much after being shot.  

Edited March 3, 2022 by Metis_LDS

[HappyJackWagon]

15 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Where is the "literal framework" for the belief that all men are created equal, and have human rights?

When literal frameworks disappear, as we grow up, so does the belief, just like Santa, not when they understand from the beginning that faith in beliefs come from within, like after the conscience kicks in when they know they have done something wrong.

Notice that around age 8 is when kids start doubting Santa as a fact?

The jump from Santa to God is very short, if they are taught literally, instead of by "good stories" that may be historical, like St. Nicholas, or just "good stories" to help us BE good, like the prodigal son.

What year the prodigal son lived, and proof of where he lived on a census record is irrelevant to the lesson inherent in the story

But then we have adults who still believe that Joseph Smith was infallible.

The BELIEFS are true, just as the golden rule is true. You know it with certainty within you.

But he was still historically a very human being, with an incredible spiritual God given gift and mission.

 

This is a bit of a straw man. Even in my most faithful days I never believed JS was infallible. I don't think anyone does (possible rare exceptions may exist)  The question is less about him being infallible and more about him being trustworthy.

You seem to be stating he had an "incredible spiritual God given gift and mission" as a fact which is a literal framework.

[Tacenda]

29 minutes ago, Metis_LDS said:

This is John Taylor own words about himself with Joseph at Cartage when the shooting started.

 I was struck by a ball from the door about midway of my thigh, which struck the bone and flattened out almost to the size of a quarter of a dollar, and then passed on through the fleshy part to within about half an inch of the outside. I think some prominent nerve must have been severed or injured, for as soon as the ball struck me, I fell like a bird when shot, or an ox when struck by a butcher, and lost entirely and instantaneously all power of action or locomotion. I fell upon the window sill, and cried out, "I am shot!" Not possessing any power to move, I felt myself falling outside of the window, but immediately I fell inside, from some, at that time, unknown cause. When I struck the floor, my animation seemed restored, as I have seen it sometimes in squirrels and birds after being shot. As soon as I felt the power of motion I crawled under the bed, which was in a corner of the room, not far from the window where I received my wound. While on my way and under the bed, I was wounded in three other places; one ball entered a little below the left knee, and never was extracted; another entered the forepart of my left arm, a little above the wrist, and, passing down by the joint, lodged in the fleshy part of my hand, about midway, a little above the upper joint of my little finger. Another struck me on the fleshy part of my left hip and tore away the flesh as large as my hand, dashing the mangled fragments of flesh and blood against the wall.

In Salt Lake city as an Apostle John Taylor was extremely poor,            I have never found what the cause was, maybe he could not work     much after being shot.  

Well, that is a sad ending, especially when I read that Brigham Young was a millionaire in his day. Show respect Brigham! c/p below:

At the time of his death, Young was the wealthiest man in Utah, with an estimated personal fortune of $600,000 (equivalent to $14,600,000 in 2020).

Died: August 29, 1877 (aged 76); Salt Lake City, ...

Parents: John and Abigail Young

Brigham Young - Wikipedia

[Bernard Gui]

Members leaving may be a cause for concern, but it should not be a surprise. The aforementioned parable of the sower, the Tree of Life vision, the predicted great sifting that is to come, the Book of Mormon prophecies, Elder Maxwell’s prophecy of members foresaking the First Presidency, and the abandonment of the Savior by most of his followers should be sufficient for us to understand what happens. 

[Kevin Christensen]

Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow:

4 And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.

5 And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth:

6 But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away.

7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.

8 And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred.

9 And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.

11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

 

The older I get, the more I examine arguments given by people who reject the gospel, the more I learn through my own study and life experience, the more impressed I am with that parable.

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

[CA Steve]

25 minutes ago, Kevin Christensen said:

The older I get, the more I examine arguments given by people who reject the gospel, the more I learn through my own study and life experience, the more impressed I am with that parable.

The older I get the more I find everyone thinks they are the seeds who fell on the good ground.

No one thinks they are currently the chaff, or the lost sheep, or the prodigal son, or the empty oil lamp. People may tell stories about how they used to be but no one thinks they still are.

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

This is a bit of a straw man. Even in my most faithful days I never believed JS was infallible. I don't think anyone does (possible rare exceptions may exist)  The question is less about him being infallible and more about him being trustworthy.

You seem to be stating he had an "incredible spiritual God given gift and mission" as a fact which is a literal framework.

Nope. No way that is "literal"

If it's a fact, prove it or disprove it with evidence.  Either way. You get your evidence and I get mine, and obviously it still will be up for grabs.

It's a gut thing.  Rabbit or duck?

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Kevin Christensen said:

Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow:

4 And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.

5 And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth:

6 But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away.

7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.

8 And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred.

9 And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.

11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

 

The older I get, the more I examine arguments given by people who reject the gospel, the more I learn through my own study and life experience, the more impressed I am with that parable.

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

Post of the year!

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Members leaving may be a cause for concern, but it should not be a surprise. The aforementioned parable of the sower, the Tree of Life vision, the predicted great sifting that is to come, the Book of Mormon prophecies, Elder Maxwell’s prophecy of members foresaking the First Presidency, and the abandonment of the Savior by most of his followers should be sufficient for us to understand what happens. 

👍 I'm reading from newest to oldest

 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, CA Steve said:

The older I get the more I find everyone thinks they are the seeds who fell on the good ground.

Go talk to some folks in the penitentiary .

Edited March 3, 2022 by mfbukowski

[HappyJackWagon]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Members leaving may be a cause for concern, but it should not be a surprise. The aforementioned parable of the sower, the Tree of Life vision, the predicted great sifting that is to come, the Book of Mormon prophecies, Elder Maxwell’s prophecy of members foresaking the First Presidency, and the abandonment of the Savior by most of his followers should be sufficient for us to understand what happens. 

This statement seems to grant a false equivalency to what it might mean to forsake the First Presidency and what it means to forsake God.

Perhaps I'm overly sensitive about this because I've had people tell me that IF I forsake the church it is the same as forsaking God. I don't buy that for a second. And calling that a "prophecy" is also a stretch considering it is essentially a rehash of the scriptural references referenced above.

[Kevin Christensen]

4 hours ago, CA Steve said:

The older I get the more I find everyone thinks they are the seeds who fell on the good ground.

No one thinks they are currently the chaff, or the lost sheep, or the prodigal son, or the empty oil lamp. People may tell stories about how they used to be but no one thinks they still are.

That is exactly why Jesus says that judgement should start with introspection.  "first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly."  (Matt. 7:5)

There is a huge difference between asking whether Joseph Smith and the LDS faith offers something real and asking whether it lives up to my personal desires, what I want it to be and what I want to do for me, and asking whether it is what I think it ought to be.  Many decades ago, a friend of mine, after her mission wrote me, "If it's the truth, why isn't there more truth in it?"  What she wanted was local members to behave with a bit more liberality in their thinking.  What she meant by "truth" was ideal behavior and perfection in the community.  So she left.  What part of the Bible and the Book of Mormon and human history tells me that such an expectation is justified?   It turns out that when the Buddha was being tempted under the Bo tree, the main temptations were Fear and Desire.   What he thought should be, and wanted to be.  So Buddhist temples have guardian statues representing Fear and Desire that a person must pass in order to enter.  And so, in 3 Nephi Jesus calls for the sacrifice of a broken heart (our desires) and a contrite spirit (what we think is so) in order to enter the Real.   I have noticed that every argument against Biblical prophets offered by Biblical peoples amounts to some one saying in effect, "It is not what I want" and/or "It is not what I think."   Fear and Desire are always the obstacles we face, and the sacrifices we must offer to enter the Real.

When ever I run across something I did not expect, or do like like, I ask myself, "What should I expect?"  If, as Kuhn observes, “Anomaly appears only against the background provided by the paradigm,”  then, as Nibley says, “Things that appear, unlikely, impossible, or paradoxical, from one point of view often make perfectly good sense from another.”

Personally, when I raise my hand to sustain other members in their callings, having looked up the definition of "sustain" in a good dictionary, I understand that what I am telling God is that I am willing to endure, suffer, allow, support, and uphold as necessary, as my personal circumstances offer. To "sustain" someone is to tell God that I will put up with the crap.  I expect the crap.  I put my stock, the grounds for my faith elsewhere, in my ongoing experiments upon the word, the ongoing enlightenment of my mind, enlargement of my soul, the fruitfulness in tasting a great many things that I would have missed had I bailed, a great many treasures that I can see that I could have missed without ever knowing what I was missing, the deliciousness of many experiences and ideas, and the future promise I continue to see.

My first published essay in Dialogue came about because I ran across something I did not expect in another Dialogue essay, and after pondering for a while, I was able to remove a beam from my own eye, and see differently.  I wrote what I newly saw, and was published.  Because of that moment, I continued in the faith, continued nurturing my seeds, and have learned a great deal more from some very bright people, and the occasional sacred experience, and have been in a position to even contribute, publishing another 40 or so essays.  Just last week, I discovered that an essay I wrote in 2013 saved another person's faith. (Sophic Box and Mantic Vista).

Having read the New Testament, I understand that some people who had the opportunity to see and hear Jesus said in response, "This is a hard saying, Who can hear it?" and "many followed no more after him." (See John 6, and the reaction to the Bread of Life sermon).  Peter's answer, given in a state in which he clearly did not yet have all the answers he might desire, and did not yet understand what was coming for Jesus and for the disciples was "To whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of Eternal Life."

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

Edited March 3, 2022 by Kevin Christensen
typo

[Teancum]

18 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I'm sorry but the gospel of Jesus Christ doesn't need to be marketed.  We're not selling something. It's not a social club.

Seriously, when did offering the gospel of salvation and the ordinances of exaltation become something we needed to make people want?  If they don't care for the welfare of their eternal souls that's not due to bad marketing.

I see why God will have to start preaching his own sermons in a society where people wonder what's in following Christ for themselves.

Seriously?  The Church uses all sorts of marketing techniques.  My MP had us listen to Zig Zigler.  Missionaries are sales people. Totally.  You have to spark some interest to get people to listen to you.

[HappyJackWagon]

16 minutes ago, Kevin Christensen said:

That is exactly why Jesus says that judgement should start with intropection.  "first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly."  (Matt. 7:5)

There is a huge difference between asking whether Joseph Smith and the LDS faith offers something real and asking whether it lives up to my personal desires, what I want it to be and what I want to do for me, and asking whether it is what I think it ought to be.  Many decades ago, a friend of mine, after her mission wrote me, "If it's the truth, why isn't there more truth in it?"  What she wanted was local members to behave with a bit more liberality in their thinking.  What she meant by "truth" was ideal behavior and perfection in the community.  So she left.  What part of the Bible and the Book of Mormon and human history tells me that such an expectation is justified?   It turns out that when the Buddha was being tempted under the Bo tree, the main temptations were Fear and Desire.   What he thought should be, and wanted to be.  So Buddhist temples have guardian statues representing Fear and Desire that a person must pass in order to enter.  And so, in 3 Nephi Jesus calls for the sacrifice of a broken heart (our desires) and a contrite spirit (what we think is so) in order to enter the Real.   I have noticed that every argument against Biblical prophets offered by Biblical peoples amounts to some one saying in effect, "It is not what I want" and/or "It is not what I think."   Fear and Desire are always the obstacles we face, and the sacrifices we must offer to enter the Real.

When ever I run across something I did not expect, or do like like, I ask myself, "What should I expect?"  If, as Kuhn observes, “Anomaly appears only against the background provided by the paradigm,”  then, as Nibley says, “Things that appear, unlikely, impossible, or paradoxical, from one point of view often make perfectly good sense from another.”

Personally, when I raise my hand to sustain other members in their callings, having looked up the definition of "sustain" in a good dictionary, I understand that what I am telling God is that I am willing to endure, suffer, allow, support, and uphold as necessary, as my personal circumstances offer. To "sustain" someone is to tell God that I will put up with the crap.  I expect the crap.  I put my stock, the grounds for my faith elsewhere, in my ongoing experiments upon the word, the ongoing enlightenment of my mind, enlargement of my soul, the fruitfulness in tasting a great many things that I would have missed had I bailed, a great many treasures that I can see that I could have missed without ever knowing what I was missing, the deliciousness of many experiences and ideas, and the future promise I continue to see.

My first published essay in Dialogue came about because I ran across something I did not expect in another Dialogue essay, and after pondering for a while, I was able to remove a beam from my own eye, and see differently.  I wrote what I newly saw, and was published.  Because of that moment, I continued in the faith, continued nurturing my seeds, and have learned a great deal more from some very bright people, and the occasional sacred experience, and have been in a position to even contribute, publishing another 40 or so essays.  Just last week, I discovered that an essay I wrote in 2013 saved another person's faith. (Sophic Box and Mantic Vista).

Having read the New Testament, I understand that some people who had the opportunity to see and hear Jesus said in response, "This is a hard saying, Who can hear it?" and "many followed no more after him." (See John 6, and the reaction to the Bread of Life sermon).  Peter's answer, given in a state in which he clearly did not yet have all the answers he might desire, and did not yet understand what was coming for Jesus and for the disciples was "To whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of Eternal Life."

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

I think most people would be quite satisfied if the church lived up to what it claimed to be. Setting the benchmark as "offers something real" is setting the bar awfully low. Quite a bit lower in fact, than where the church sets the bar.

[mfbukowski]

49 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Perhaps I'm overly sensitive about this because I've had people tell me that IF I forsake the church it is the same as forsaking God. I don't buy that for a second.

Your position seems obviously "correct" as a convert who obviously knew God before Joseph Smith.

Fergitaboutit.!

Follow your heart, if it doesn't work for you, why listen to people you think are wrong?

[Kevin Christensen]

31 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I think most people would be quite satisfied if the church lived up to what it claimed to be. Setting the benchmark as "offers something real" is setting the bar awfully low. Quite a bit lower in fact, than where the church sets the bar.

Okay.  But here is how I measure "real" Mormon spiritual experience.

https://oneclimbs.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/A-Model-of-Mormon-Spiritual-Experience.pdf

And here is how I test whether Joseph Smith measures up to what a "real" prophet should be.

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Biblical_Keys_for_Discerning_True_and_False_Prophets

If that is an "awfully low bar", who else measures up?

And I personally find it helpful to not anthropomorphise the "church" in regard to where the bar is set, but to consider specificially how in D&C 1 the Lord formally sets expectations the people we encounter in the LDS covenant assembly.

Quote

6 Behold, this is mine authority, and the authority of my servants,...

24 Behold, I am God and have spoken it; these commandments are of me, and were given unto my servants in their weakness, after the manner of their language, that they might come to understanding.

25 And inasmuch as they erred it might be made known;

26 And inasmuch as they sought wisdom they might be instructed;

27 And inasmuch as they sinned they might be chastened, that they might repent;

28 And inasmuch as they were humble they might be made strong, and blessed from on high, and receive knowledge from time to time.

If that is not a particularly high bar for the reality to expect among the LDS members, it does have the advantage of being the bar spelled out by the foremost authority.

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, A

[Tacenda]

5 hours ago, Kevin Christensen said:

Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow:

4 And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.

5 And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth:

6 But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away.

7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.

8 And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred.

9 And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.

11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

 

The older I get, the more I examine arguments given by people who reject the gospel, the more I learn through my own study and life experience, the more impressed I am with that parable.

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

Just a what if...

what if the false prophets the Bible teaches about is the prophet in the LDS church? Not saying I believe Joseph meant to be false just that he thought a church needed to be restored. And that it was up to him. And he did all in his power to teach how we are able to eventually live with God and ways to make it happen...especially that he can see his brother Alvin. Since he used sources like Swedenborg etc. And scriptures in the Bible.

Edited March 3, 2022 by Tacenda

[CV75]

10 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Just a what if...

what if the false prophets the Bible teaches about is the prophet in the LDS church? Not saying I believe Joseph meant to be false just that he thought a church needed to be restored. And that it was up to him. And he did all in his power to teach how we are able to eventually live with God and ways to make it happen...especially that he can see his brother Alvin. Since he used sources like Swedenborg etc. And scriptures in the Bible.

That is one of innumerable ways "their journey takes them away from the Church we love and the truth we have found, but we honor their right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their own conscience, just as we claim that privilege for ourselves." https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2013/10/come-join-with-us?lang=eng

A fuller quote:

"Sometimes we assume it is because they have been offended or lazy or sinful. Actually, it is not that simple. In fact, there is not just one reason that applies to the variety of situations.

"Some of our dear members struggle for years with the question whether they should separate themselves from the Church.

"It may break our hearts when their journey takes them away from the Church we love and the truth we have found, but we honor their right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their own conscience, just as we claim that privilege for ourselves." https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2013/10/come-join-with-us?lang=eng

 

[Kevin Christensen]

On 3/3/2022 at 4:41 PM, Tacenda said:

Just a what if...

what if the false prophets the Bible teaches about is the prophet in the LDS church? Not saying I believe Joseph meant to be false just that he thought a church needed to be restored. And that it was up to him. And he did all in his power to teach how we are able to eventually live with God and ways to make it happen...especially that he can see his brother Alvin. Since he used sources like Swedenborg etc. And scriptures in the Bible.

Here are 28 Biblical Tests for Discerning True and False Prophets.

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Biblical_Keys_for_Discerning_True_and_False_Prophets/Tests

There is a direct relationship between how a person measures Joseph Smith and the answer they give.  Just as there is about how a person measures Jesus and the answer they give.  The different answers happen because people measure in different ways.  After I compiled these tests, many years ago, I realized that anyone could have done it, and no one had.  Why not?  Because if you test Joseph or Jesus against your own personal subjective notions and desires, it is far easier to ensure that you get the answer you want at that particular moment in time.  That is, you can give yourself an answer that does not require the sacrifice of a broken heart, or a contrite spirit.  The problem with that subjective approach is that it is just that.  Subjective.  A matter of personal taste and inclination.   The question is important.  Jesus talks about discerning true and false prophets as discerning between grapes and thorns and figs and thistles.  That is, he shows that is it a matter of defined characterisitics, not personal tastes.  A bruised or bird pecked fig it still a fig, and a perfect thorn is not a grape.  Even a raisen came from a grape vine.

Regarding Swedenbog as a potential source for Joseph, see Craig W. Miller, “Emanuel Swedenborg and Mormonism” at Mormon Universalism” (blog), April 22, 2014, http://mormonuniversalism.com/2112/emanuel-swedenborg-and-mormonism/  See also J. B. Haws, “Joseph Smith, Emanuel Swedenborg, and Section 76: Importance of the Bible in Latter-day Revelation,” in The Doctrine and Covenants: Revelations in Context, ed. Andrew H. Hedges, J. Spencer Fluhman, and Alonzo L. Gaskill (Provo, UT, and Salt Lake City: Religious Studies Center, Brigham Young University, and Deseret Book, 2008), 142–67, https://rsc.byu.edu/doctrine-covenants-revelations-context/joseph-smith-emanuel-swedenborg-section-76-importance-bible 

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

 

Edited March 21, 2022 by Kevin Christensen
typo

[Tacenda]

I thought this could help those struggling or family or friends that have loved ones leave.  Ways to communicate, what not to say or what to say with Dr. Julie Hanks. 

https://www.abc4.com/gtu/what-to-say-to-a-loved-one-leaving-their-religion/

[Bernard Gui]

41 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I thought this could help those struggling or family or friends that have loved ones leave.  Ways to communicate, what not to say or what to say with Dr. Julie Hanks. 

https://www.abc4.com/gtu/what-to-say-to-a-loved-one-leaving-their-religion/

I have found that the Spirit will let you know what needs to be said when it needs to be said. 

[Chum]

6 hours ago, CA Steve said:

The older I get the more I find everyone thinks they are the seeds who fell on the good ground.

I agree that people are seeds in this parable - and that landing on different types of ground yields different outcomes.

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

This statement seems to grant a false equivalency to what it might mean to forsake the First Presidency and what it means to forsake God.

Perhaps I'm overly sensitive about this because I've had people tell me that IF I forsake the church it is the same as forsaking God. I don't buy that for a second. And calling that a "prophecy" is also a stretch considering it is essentially a rehash of the scriptural references referenced above.

We probably should not forsake covenants with God. Even if one cannot give credit to Elder Maxwell, the Tree of Life Vision and the Parable of the Sower are instructive. 

Edited March 4, 2022 by Bernard Gui