Some questions and thoughts about why people leave the Church.

[SwedishLDS]

7 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I worked in Utah for a bit right before moving here (not America). It didn't help. My singles ward was literally 3 men for every 1 woman.

yeah, I regretted writing that comment the moment I posted it. But I cannot undo it

[SwedishLDS]

5 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Not sure whether you are of the age when this would apply, but does the Church still put on the Festinord event in Scandinavia?

for sure, I was a little whiny, but not everything is bad and in general I really like the YSA. I think I will find someone either way as I put myself out there, and I try to work on myself. I’m going to Festinord in Helsinki in July, and try to go to activities.

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 hours ago, SwedishLDS said:

yeah, I regretted writing that comment the moment I posted it. But I cannot undo it

All good, mate. Just commiserating.

[Meadowchik]

On 3/2/2022 at 8:49 PM, kimpearson said:

In reading the discussions about why people leave the Church, there seems to be two broad viewpoints.  One is that the numbers haven't changed that much and most of these people left because they either had no faith or weren't really converted in the first place.  The other viewpoint is that members are leaving because of a loss of faith over historical issue, social issues, disagreement with leaders actions and feeling like they don't fit.  That the number of people leaving the Church is increasing.

I wonder if the two viewpoints talk past each other because they are really talking about two different groups.  Historically for many years now more than 50% of members are not active and have little connection to the Church.  An even higher percentage of new converts fall quickly into inactivity.  These groups of members represent a huge number that statistically makes up the vast majority of those leaving the Church.  It probably can be argued these folks never had much of a testimony or because of inaction lost whatever testimony they had.  I believe this is the group that Brad Wilcox and other church leaders refer to when they say the numbers haven't changed much.

The second group I am much more interested in and invested in listening to is members that were fully active then rather suddenly either went inactive or formerly withdrew from membership.  My wife, sister in law, mother in law, numerous nieces and nephews, aunts and uncles and friends fall into this category.  Our ward executive secretary was quietly release and his family suddenly disappeared.  Next thing I know, his wife is heading up the local thrive group for members who have decided to leave the Church.  Both he and his wife served missions, met at BYU, married in the temple and served faithfully in the Church for over 15 years.  This group also includes the many children of friends and family who grew up in fully active homes that followed all the Church guidance for making families strong including family home evening, scripture study, seminary and temple attendance.  When these children left home, they immediately ceased all activity in the Church.  This group includes young adults who come home from missions and within a year or two have gone inactive.  Statistically speaking, this group is much smaller than the first group.  The problem I see with this group that is leaving is that traditionally this group provided most of the leadership in the Church.  People leaving the Church from this group will really impact the future of the Church much more than the much large group of long time inactive or never fully active members.

What do you think?  Am I on the right track?  Should active members of the Church worry for the future of the Church because of either group or will there be no major impact to the Church's future?  Do you think Church leaders see any significant problems in this area that they are willing to address in detail and with much focus or do you think Church leadership believes if they remain faithful and all their efforts are focused on keeping currently faithful members active that God will protect the Church from any problems of those members who do leave?

Of course I think the Church should worry about losing members, and I think we can say it is very concerned about lack of retention--more passive--and also the more sudden, intentional departers. 

The cause for the concern would imo be naturally rooted in the desire for the church to contribute to peoples' lives. If people don't keep coming, or don't stay, they would possibly miss the benefits of church attendance. Additionally, this change in activity could be a direct result of those members' needs not being met.

The most obvious question might then be how the church can be more beneficial to members. In short, a spiritual growth mindset like described in the AoF would be well-applied to the church institution itself: how can it better meet members needs?

A major component of my leaving was the incompatibility between my growing spirituality and the strict beliefs organized within the church paradigm. There wasn't space for someone like me, despite the fact that a great chunk of my core beliefs still align with Mormonism.

[SwedishLDS]

2 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Of course I think the Church should worry about losing members, and I think we can say it is very concerned about lack of retention--more passive--and also the more sudden, intentional departers. 

Yeah, the more the merrier. There is quite a bit of missionary work, but I have seen an increase in the working with member part of certain missions.

2 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

The cause for the concern would imo be naturally rooted in the desire for the church to contribute to peoples' lives. If people don't keep coming, or don't stay, they would possibly miss the benefits of church attendance. Additionally, this change in activity could be a direct result of those members' needs not being met.

Definitely, the gospel is key, and letting people feel the music is important. 

2 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

The most obvious question might then be how the church can be more beneficial to members. In short, a spiritual growth mindset like described in the AoF would be well-applied to the church institution itself: how can it better meet members needs?

Not all sunday speeches are as powerful, and not all teachers that elogent, but I believe I can get something out of it anyways. I think some recent revelations like ministering has been helpful here. Activities can be better, people more inclusive, speeches more genuine, etc, . That said, I think its important to remember that we are all just a bunch of imperfect laymen and nobody (almost nobody) gets paid in the church.

2 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

A major component of my leaving was the incompatibility between my growing spirituality and the strict beliefs organized within the church paradigm. There wasn't space for someone like me, despite the fact that a great chunk of my core beliefs still align with Mormonism.

Makes sense, I think it is important to be charitable and socially friendly towards everyone.

That said, How do you feel about church attendance, or more specifically the sacrament then?

[SwedishLDS]

Anyone leaving is a great loss to the community. We want the gospel of Christ to be in every country and tongue, but also within our own families. Seeing people not show up anymore makes me feel lonesome sometimes, because I value my relationship with them and I know this creates a gap between us and that we will have less opportunities to interact, and because I know how much of a blessing can be.

That said, I also worry about the people without testimony that show up, or that dont feel the music. 

Feeling the spirit regularly is the most important thing I think.

[Meadowchik]

19 minutes ago, SwedishLDS said:

That said, How do you feel about church attendance, or more specifically the sacrament then?

I talk about that here and an example of a church experience that edified me after I left: 

 

[SwedishLDS]

23 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

I talk about that here and an example of a church experience that edified me after I left: 

 

Thank you for response and well written post😊

[Meadowchik]

57 minutes ago, SwedishLDS said:

Thank you for response and well written post😊

You're welcome 😀

I'd also add some more recent ways individual members have made me feel a whole participant among them:

My parents.

Recently I have undergone very painful experiences that one might consider stereotypical of apostates. But never in this time did my believing LDS parents hint to my leaving as a cause of the pain. They listened and supported me and have given me strength to endure and even thrive.

Also, my mother was diagnosed with terminal illness last year. She passed away several months later. During her illness, I visited them and felt completely enveloped in their love, edified both by their love for each other and for me. I asked my mother if, when the time came, I could help prepare her body for burial and she agreed. She and dad planned her funeral in advanced and the program exclusively featured us, their children, no one else as speakers. It's an experience I'll always cherish, being cherished and mutually so among my siblings, no difference being made toward the member children and ex-member children. 

My parents gave me a gift I'll keep with me the rest of my life and by virtue of that gift I have a respect for their beliefs that couldn't have been built better by any other means.

[rodheadlee]

On 3/15/2022 at 11:27 AM, SwedishLDS said:

I am familiar with a lot of the posts on this forum, but I would say that fundamentally the world has become more and more detached morally from the gospel teachings and church teachings. Family, church and religion in general doesn’t have the same strength as it used to, and religiousness and procreation numbers are decreasing worldwide. 

While a member in the developed world probably won’t experience the same physical challenges as the pioneers in the sense of the big trek west, starvation and physical struggles; they will however have more spiritual resistance in some ways, after all we live side by side by non religious people all our life, we spend time on the internet where non religious themes dominate, and we live in a world that focuses on temporal success, individualism over family duty, and religiousness is to a large degree (this depends a lot on where you live, but for me as an active lds member in Sweden it is certainly the case) considered foolishness and the same as believing in santa clause, something for stupid people.

Just feel blessed you live in Utah, where you can at least find wife that is a member. Still struggling myself.

Welcome and good luck. 

[Tacenda]

12 hours ago, SwedishLDS said:

yeah, I regretted writing that comment the moment I posted it. But I cannot undo it

I'm sure the Lord would be okay with you marrying a non LDS. But I understand your position of maybe wanting a temple marriage. 

[bluebell]

31 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I'm sure the Lord would be okay with you marrying a non LDS. But I understand your position of maybe wanting a temple marriage. 

I'm sorry to keep bugging you Tacenda, I promise I'm not following you around.  The bolded statement just made me wonder, why are you sure that the Lord doesn't care if we marry a fellow saint?

Where is your surety on what the Lord wants for him coming from?  (I'm not trying to argue, just wondering).   

[2BizE]

7 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Of course I think the Church should worry about losing members, and I think we can say it is very concerned about lack of retention--more passive--and also the more sudden, intentional departers. 

The cause for the concern would imo be naturally rooted in the desire for the church to contribute to peoples' lives. If people don't keep coming, or don't stay, they would possibly miss the benefits of church attendance. Additionally, this change in activity could be a direct result of those members' needs not being met.

The most obvious question might then be how the church can be more beneficial to members. In short, a spiritual growth mindset like described in the AoF would be well-applied to the church institution itself: how can it better meet members needs?

A major component of my leaving was the incompatibility between my growing spirituality and the strict beliefs organized within the church paradigm. There wasn't space for someone like me, despite the fact that a great chunk of my core beliefs still align with Mormonism.

I believe in the last conference, Pres. Oaks tried to tiptoe around the topic in his address about the “Need for Church”.  I think the pandemic has shown many people including myself just how much I don’t need church. Some people on this forum really like church and some were saddened when it was cut to two hours weekly.  I’m not one of those people. I have struggled with church relevancy for years. I find church non-enlightening. It creates no interest in my mind. There is no space in the church for sharing doubts, which incidentally was the genesis of the church.  In addition, it demands much from my time and resources like cleaning toilets and pulling weeds. None of that is below me, it is just requested in a way that is disrespectful toward my time.

I agree the church needs to focus on retention. There is little I find intriguing about church. I think there are many people just like me.

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

I'm sorry to keep bugging you Tacenda, I promise I'm not following you around.  The bolded statement just made me wonder, why are you sure that the Lord doesn't care if we marry a fellow saint?

Where is your surety on what the Lord wants for him coming from?  (I'm not trying to argue, just wondering).   

Because why would He want anyone to be alone the rest of their lives if they can't find someone of the same religion? That's where religion is harmful, IMO.

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Because why would He want anyone to be alone the rest of their lives if they can't find someone of the same religion? That's where religion is harmful, IMO.

I can think of some reasons but they don't really matter.  The underlying assumption in your statement seems to be that religion is harmful because it teaches that God sometimes asks hard things of us.  We can agree to disagree on that.

I guess I asked the question because I know you've spoken in the past about how unsure you are of God's path for you (and sometimes it seems like you are even unsure if He exists).  Given that, I was surprised that you spoke with surety of what God wanted for someone else.

 

[Tacenda]

6 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I can think of some reasons but they don't really matter.  The underlying assumption in your statement seems to be that religion is harmful because it teaches that God sometimes asks hard things of us.  We can agree to disagree on that.

I guess I asked the question because I know you've spoken in the past about how unsure you are of God's path for you (and sometimes it seems like you are even unsure if He exists).  Given that, I was surprised that you spoke with surety of what God wanted for someone else.

 

I believe in a God, but feel religion is harmful a lot of times in teachings that aren't of God, IMO. I've seen single women that long for a man to take them to the temple, and then get to the point that in their thinking, they will get their husband in the afterlife as a polygamist wife, because it's too late. While, they could have married a real decent non member and sometimes a non member could treat them even better.

Edited March 17, 2022 by Tacenda

[sunstoned]

10 hours ago, SwedishLDS said:

Anyone leaving is a great loss to the community. We want the gospel of Christ to be in every country and tongue, but also within our own families. Seeing people not show up anymore makes me feel lonesome sometimes, because I value my relationship with them and I know this creates a gap between us and that we will have less opportunities to interact, and because I know how much of a blessing can be.

That said, I also worry about the people without testimony that show up, or that dont feel the music. 

Feeling the spirit regularly is the most important thing I think.

Off topic, but welcome to the forum!

[bluebell]

2 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I believe in a God, but feel religion is harmful a lot of times in teachings that aren't of God, IMO. I've seen single women that long for a man to take them to the temple, and then get to the point that in their thinking, they will get their husband in the afterlife as a polygamist wife, because it's too late. While, they could have married a real decent non member and sometimes a non member could treat them even better.

I get those thoughts and they are reasonable in a lot of ways.  But I don't really get the idea that you know for sure what God wants for someone else. 

For example, when I was the YW's president we had a lesson on eternal marriage and one point I made sure to make was that I didn't want them to make any promises about only marrying in the temple because I didn't know God's plan for them.  One of them had a brother who had just gotten married to a girl he met on his mission and baptized.  She hadn't been married long enough to go to the temple so they got married civilly and had plans to go to the temple later.  I could imagine other similar circumstances where God's plan for someone might not follow the "rule" that we do believe is best.  I didn't feel like I had the right to speak for God to those girls and their individual lives.

But you said you were sure that God did not care if that poster got married in the temple or not.  I wanted to understand where that surety was coming from.

 

[Tacenda]

5 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I get those thoughts and they are reasonable in a lot of ways.  But I don't really get the idea that you know for sure what God wants for someone else. 

For example, when I was the YW's president we had a lesson on eternal marriage and one point I made sure to make was that I didn't want them to make any promises about only marrying in the temple because I didn't know God's plan for them.  One of them had a brother who had just gotten married to a girl he met on his mission and baptized.  She hadn't been married long enough to go to the temple so they got married civilly and had plans to go to the temple later.  I could imagine other similar circumstances where God's plan for someone might not follow the "rule" that we do believe is best.  I didn't feel like I had the right to speak for God to those girls and their individual lives.

But you said you were sure that God did not care if that poster got married in the temple or not.  I wanted to understand where that surety was coming from.

 

Often, in my mind's eye that's how I retain a belief in a loving God. ETA: Also, I was thinking in Sweden he'd have a difficult time finding many women that are members. 

Edited March 17, 2022 by Tacenda

[caspianrex]

On 3/16/2022 at 3:13 AM, SwedishLDS said:

yeah, I regretted writing that comment the moment I posted it. But I cannot undo it

Not to be contentious, but you absolutely can undo it...at least, you can undo the post. The forum allows you to delete or edit your posts.

(Obviously, you can't delete it from the minds of those who have already read your comment. So, in that sense, you are correct.)

Edited March 17, 2022 by caspianrex
Corrected punctuation

[Calm]

31 minutes ago, caspianrex said:

Not to be contentious, but you absolutely can undo it...at least, you can undo the post. The forum allows you to delete or edit your posts.

(Obviously, you can't delete it from the minds of those who have already read your comment. So, in that sense, you are correct.)

It doesn’t allow it until they have reached 25 posts. Swedish has one more to go at the time of this post. 

[caspianrex]

49 minutes ago, Calm said:

It doesn’t allow it until they have reached 25 posts. Swedish has one more to go at the time of this post. 

Aha, I see. I had forgotten that!

[Bernard Gui]

20 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

You're welcome 😀

I'd also add some more recent ways individual members have made me feel a whole participant among them:

My parents.

Recently I have undergone very painful experiences that one might consider stereotypical of apostates. But never in this time did my believing LDS parents hint to my leaving as a cause of the pain. They listened and supported me and have given me strength to endure and even thrive.

Also, my mother was diagnosed with terminal illness last year. She passed away several months later. During her illness, I visited them and felt completely enveloped in their love, edified both by their love for each other and for me. I asked my mother if, when the time came, I could help prepare her body for burial and she agreed. She and dad planned her funeral in advanced and the program exclusively featured us, their children, no one else as speakers. It's an experience I'll always cherish, being cherished and mutually so among my siblings, no difference being made toward the member children and ex-member children. 

My parents gave me a gift I'll keep with me the rest of my life and by virtue of that gift I have a respect for their beliefs that couldn't have been built better by any other means.

For many of us though we do grieve together over the loss privately in our quiet conversations at night, but try to remember that eternity is a very long time. 

Edited March 17, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[rodheadlee]

On 3/4/2022 at 1:26 PM, Nemesis said:

We’ve been told on many occasions this site’s moderation leads people out of the church.  Go figure.

 

Nemesis 

Well you all are the reason I got active back in 2009 - 2010. Thank you. 

[Navidad]

On 3/15/2022 at 6:57 PM, Hamba Tuhan said:

As my non-member mates have repeatedly pointed out to me, Latter-day Saint men are culturally primed to be what women often describe as 'ideal' husbands in multiple ways (hands-on with kids, family-centred, happy to share in household responsibilities, less aggressive, etc.).

Might this not be true for many faith-centric males, regardless of specific faith group? Are your "non-member mates" simply not LDS, or are they nonfaith-based as a priority in their lives? After years in a ward I struggle to see a significant difference between the manner or attitude of males in the ward and males in any faith-based group.