Interesting development with BYU

[Calm]

19 minutes ago, rongo said:

I wasn't aware Daybell/Vallow had any presence or following at BYU.   Or that numerically, they have much pull even outside of BYU. They are as fringe as it gets. 

He may be thinking of Daybell’s larger group he was managing prior to this scandal, which was part of AVOW as he had public and private groups, went round and gave talks at prepper events run by Preparing A People…who have rebranded and are doing pretty much the same now iirc. Can’t remember their new name. Covid probably helped drive up the interest in their groups. Probably cursing Daybell now for tainting it for many just when they likely could have gone mainstream with some savvy promotion. 
 

I am not sure how big the prepper/end of times movement is at BYU, seems like that tends to hit in one’s 40’s and above, so not many students involved. 

Edited January 28, 2022 by Calm

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

It appears you were intending to be derogatory with this remark,

 

Derogatory?  Perhaps.  Also perhaps just a frank observation.

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

 

 

but I think BYU will be better off with clarifying and, to an extent, returning to its fundamendal mandates from the Church.  Elder Holland's remarks were, I think, one of the first public moves of this process.  

 

Yes they were. His remarks were fairly stark about where he thinks BYU should stand.

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

I'm glad to see this.  I want BYU to be unique and distinctive.  I want it to reflect the tenets and beliefs of the Church, while also providing a top-notch secular education.

Thanks,

-Smac

Well this might surprise you but I pretty much agree.  I think if the Church wants to own a university it has the right to run it how they wish and expect behavioral standards from those who attend.  I do think if someone wants to attend BYU they need to comply with the rules, etc.  If they can't or do not want to there are plenty of other schools to choose from.  It has always amazed me when a student decides to attend BYU then complains about the standards.  It is not like they did not know what to expect before they went there.

[Robert F. Smith]

41 minutes ago, rongo said:

I wasn't aware Daybell/Vallow had any presence or following at BYU.   Or that numerically, they have much pull even outside of BYU. They are as fringe as it gets. 

Chad Daybell lived and worked in Spingville.  He and his publishing house had widely published associates -- very popular among spiritual LDS members.  Most considered it mainstream, until the bodies of two children were found buried in his backyard in Idaho.  Now it appears that other murders preceded all that.

I haven't done a survey, but it seems quite likely that his and his company's books were sold at the BYU bookstore and that his spirituality was admired among some BYU students.  Within just the past few years some LDS preppers have committed horrible crimes and are now in prison for long terms.

[ttribe]

4 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Well, depending on how broadly one defines the perhaps-nebulous, perhaps-amorphous term "Loyalty Oath," BYU and its powers-that-be have been requiring that for decades.

If you're right, the natural response to your assertion is "Why bother, then?" On the other hand, I see a difference between agreeing to living the Honor Code, and agreeing to maintain a Temple Recommend which includes a specific affirmative statement to Question 3 - "Do you sustain the president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the prophet, seer, and revelator and as the only person on the earth authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain the members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local leaders of the Church?"

Edited January 28, 2022 by ttribe

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Chad Daybell lived and worked in Spingville.  He and his publishing house had widely published associates -- very popular among spiritual LDS members.  Most considered it mainstream, until the bodies of two children were found buried in his backyard in Idaho.  Now it appears that other murders preceded all that.

I haven't done a survey, but it seems quite likely that his and his company's books were sold at the BYU bookstore and that his spirituality was admired among some BYU students.  Within just the past few years some LDS preppers have committed horrible crimes and are now in prison for long terms.

It's unbelievable how members of the church liked his books and writings. When I read what he's written, a fourth grader could do just as good. 

[rongo]

12 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

It's unbelievable how members of the church liked his books and writings. When I read what he's written, a fourth grader could do just as good. 

How many is that, though? I've never heard of him, but I have had to tamp down AVOW and Roger K. Young stuff. Chad Daybell and his D&D style of false prophetism seems really small and niche to me in comparison. He's only famous because of his adventures with Lori Vallow. None of the tent city, AVOW, Julia Rowe (before dropping off the radar) people I know talked about him or his books. 

[mfbukowski]

22 hours ago, Teancum said:

Oh sorry. Do you want a big hug?  Is it tough for you when your church is criticized?

Anybody can give a down vote, even me?

[Kenngo1969]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

It's unbelievable how members of the church liked his books and writings. When I read what he's written, a fourth grader could do just as good. 

Or, a fourth-grader could do just as well.  

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

It's unbelievable how members of the church liked his books and writings. When I read what he's written, a fourth grader could do just as good. 

That is 95% of church books.

And 95% of bestsellers.

Click for a review of the Da Vinci code that explains how stupid the book is and also has a fair amount of profanity.

 

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Or, a fourth-grader could do just as well.  

I'm not smarter than a fourth grader!!  

 

[Hamba Tuhan]

9 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I've heard (but I don't have a source) that nonmember professors at BYU have indicated that there is more academic freedom there than there has been at other places they have taught.  In any event, even if you (and your sources) are correct about the level of academic freedom at BYU (asserted lack thereof), it may be a "pick-one's-poison" proposition:

This. The conceit that dogmas and orthodoxies of one kind or another don't exist at other academic institutions is risible. Anti-religious bias has been ubiquitous in my experience. As a master's student in America, I was one day confronted by the assistant adviser of my program, who wanted to establish the truth or error of a disturbing rumour she had heard about me.

When I confirmed that I was indeed a Latter-day Saint, she immediately asked, 'But only culturally, right? Surely you don't believe any of that nonsense?' I let her know that I was fully believing, and she physically recoiled. Needless to say, I no longer felt safe in her office.

Whilst conducting research in Indonesia, I teamed up with a senior academic from Cornell University, who asked me to accompany him to the far side of the island one weekend for some field research. I agreed, and halfway through the four-hour journey, I mentioned something about having served a mission. He then spent the next 20 minutes or so mocking the Book of Mormon, pointing out what he deemed its obvious flaws (half of which had no basis in the actual text), and then turned to me and asked, 'Surely, you don't actually believe in this obvious fraud, do you?'

My affirmative response resulted in awkward silence and distance for the rest of the day.

As a PhD student, criticism of our centre-right government crept into nearly every conversation, with people just assuming that no fit scholar would have any other opinion. I learnt to remain silent.

As a representative on the postgraduate student council, I had to forever challenge 'progressive' assumptions that were held as natural/universal -- including fighting against the use of student fees to publish an 'objective' voting guide designed to champion left-wing parties and candidates.

When I first started working as the assistant editor of an academic journal, I shared an office with the editor (until space became available for me). One day she started critiquing the push towards same-sex marriage on academic grounds. After a few minutes, she realised what she had done and said, 'It's a good thing the door is closed. If anyone had overheard us, we'd both be out of a job'.

Later, when I left that position to take up my current employment as a political adviser, I was called into the office of my supervisor, who, 'off the record', explained to me in no uncertain terms that choosing to work for a 'conservative' politician would spell the end of my academic career. When I formally resigned, the university agreed to allow me to maintain my academic affiliation, but only two months later, that was severed.

So yeah.

Edited January 29, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[Robert F. Smith]

5 hours ago, Tacenda said:

It's unbelievable how members of the church liked his books and writings. When I read what he's written, a fourth grader could do just as good. 

He and the authors his company published did have a formula.

[Calm]

25 years ago, a friend in Social Work had her Master’s Thesis approved, no controversy. Until it was cited shortly afterwards in Parliament by a member of the Conservative party.  Approval for it was withdrawn.  At the time she told me about this, they hadn’t given any specifics save to say the work didn’t match the standards of the Dept but one of her advisers let her know the dept would not approve of her work as long as it supported home care was statistically better for kids than daycare. I never did find out what happened as last I heard she was contesting the rejection.  Since she thought she had finished her academic work, she had moved out of student housing (UofCalgary) so was no longer in our ward, iirc. 

Edited January 29, 2022 by Calm

[poptart]

17 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

This. The conceit that dogmas and orthodoxies of one kind or another don't exist at other academic institutions is risible. Anti-religious bias has been ubiquitous in my experience. As a master's student in America, I was one day confronted by the assistant adviser of my program, who wanted to establish the truth or error of a disturbing rumour she had heard about me.

When I confirmed that I was indeed a Latter-day Saint, she immediately asked, 'But only culturally, right? Surely you don't believe any of that nonsense?' I let her know that I was fully believing, and she physically recoiled. Needless to say, I no longer felt safe in her office.

Whilst conducting research in Indonesia, I teamed up with a senior academic from Cornell University, who asked me to accompany him to the far side of the island one weekend for some field research. I agreed, and halfway through the four-hour journey, I mentioned something about having served a mission. He then spent the next 20 minutes or so mocking the Book of Mormon, pointing out what he deemed its obvious flaws (half of which had no basis in the actual text), and then turned to me and asked, 'Surely, you don't actually believe in this obvious fraud, do you?'

My affirmative response resulted in awkward silence and distance for the rest of the day.

As a PhD student, criticism of our centre-right government crept into nearly every conversation, with people just assuming that no fit scholar would have any other opinion. I learnt to remain silent.

As a representative on the postgraduate student council, I had to forever challenge 'progressive' assumptions that were held as natural/universal -- including fighting against the use of student fees to publish an 'objective' voting guide designed to champion left-wing parties and candidates.

When I first started working as the assistant editor of an academic journal, I shared an office with the editor (until space became available for me). One day she started critiquing the push towards same-sex marriage on academic grounds. After a few minutes, she realised what she had done and said, 'It's a good thing the door is closed. If anyone had overheard us, we'd both be out of a job'.

Later, when I left that position to take up my current employment as a political adviser, I was called into the office of my supervisor, who, 'off the record', explained to me in no uncertain terms that choosing to work for a 'conservative' politician would spell the end of my academic career. When I formally resigned, the university agreed to allow me to maintain my academic affiliation, but only two months later, that was severed.

So yeah.

Is it true people in Uni are terrified of being labeled racist and/or homophobic?  I hear now it's like corporate, a possible career killer.  

[california boy]

13 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

This. The conceit that dogmas and orthodoxies of one kind or another don't exist at other academic institutions is risible. Anti-religious bias has been ubiquitous in my experience. As a master's student in America, I was one day confronted by the assistant adviser of my program, who wanted to establish the truth or error of a disturbing rumour she had heard about me.

When I confirmed that I was indeed a Latter-day Saint, she immediately asked, 'But only culturally, right? Surely you don't believe any of that nonsense?' I let her know that I was fully believing, and she physically recoiled. Needless to say, I no longer felt safe in her office.

Whilst conducting research in Indonesia, I teamed up with a senior academic from Cornell University, who asked me to accompany him to the far side of the island one weekend for some field research. I agreed, and halfway through the four-hour journey, I mentioned something about having served a mission. He then spent the next 20 minutes or so mocking the Book of Mormon, pointing out what he deemed its obvious flaws (half of which had no basis in the actual text), and then turned to me and asked, 'Surely, you don't actually believe in this obvious fraud, do you?'

My affirmative response resulted in awkward silence and distance for the rest of the day.

As a PhD student, criticism of our centre-right government crept into nearly every conversation, with people just assuming that no fit scholar would have any other opinion. I learnt to remain silent.

As a representative on the postgraduate student council, I had to forever challenge 'progressive' assumptions that were held as natural/universal -- including fighting against the use of student fees to publish an 'objective' voting guide designed to champion left-wing parties and candidates.

When I first started working as the assistant editor of an academic journal, I shared an office with the editor (until space became available for me). One day she started critiquing the push towards same-sex marriage on academic grounds. After a few minutes, she realised what she had done and said, 'It's a good thing the door is closed. If anyone had overheard us, we'd both be out of a job'.

Later, when I left that position to take up my current employment as a political adviser, I was called into the office of my supervisor, who, 'off the record', explained to me in no uncertain terms that choosing to work for a 'conservative' politician would spell the end of my academic career. When I formally resigned, the university agreed to allow me to maintain my academic affiliation, but only two months later, that was severed.

So yeah.

I don't think it had much to do with academics.  I find that most people have this view of Mormonism.  One thing that I have been surprised at is what people say to me once they know that I am no longer a member of the Church, compared to what they said to me when they knew I was a practicing member.  

If you don't believe me, try saying that you used to be Mormon next time you find yourself in a social situation where you are the only member there.  I think most members will be quite surprised at how others candidly view the Church.  It is very similar to what you are describing, especially in California.

[rongo]

22 minutes ago, california boy said:

I don't think it had much to do with academics.  I find that most people have this view of Mormonism.  One thing that I have been surprised at is what people say to me once they know that I am no longer a member of the Church, compared to what they said to me when they knew I was a practicing member.  

If you don't believe me, try saying that you used to be Mormon next time you find yourself in a social situation where you are the only member there.  I think most members will be quite surprised at how others candidly view the Church.  It is very similar to what you are describing, especially in California.

I think that California, in a lot of ways, is more foreign than Malaysia. Our principal moved to North Carolina to start a new charter school in our system there, and the new principal had run his own charter school in California for ten years. He told the staff in his first meeting that his family was really looking forward to "rejoining the United States."  

I agree with you that most non-Mormons think believing, observant Mormons are nuts. They're polite about it to their Mormon friends, but, yeah. 

[Olmec Donald]

deleted

Edited January 29, 2022 by Olmec Donald

[Calm]

53 minutes ago, poptart said:

Is it true people in Uni are terrified of being labeled racist and/or homophobic?  I hear now it's like corporate, a possible career killer.  

My husband’s career got stalled in Calgary because one female professor in competition for certain aspects of his job pushed the narrative as a Mormon he was obviously sexist and would mistreat the women he worked with. One of the Powers That Be there accepted it without question even after one of the female staff members collected several signatures attesting he was the most respective and easiest of all the professsors they had ever worked with.  (He is ultra kind and never critical, one of the reasons I married him though I later found out he was overaggressive as a kid and one day realized he was being abusive and not just having fun and it so shocked him he pretty much suppressed all the aggression in his soul except for sports and driving; he takes it too far at times even, such as not really fighting back in this case).  A student reported they had heard a rumor when checking out schools back East that the University was losing its cutting edge reputation and it was being blamed on my husband not developing the program…which he couldn’t as he was getting pulled from projects he had established which then died because the people who took over (mainly the woman who started the whole sexist label) weren’t invested in them. Now the student was a dramatist so I don’t know how much a rumor it actually was, but it was something out of the blue as the student wasn’t aware of the local politics going on, so something had to have been said. 
 

I would assume if accusations of sexism without documentation is a semicareer killer that accusations or racism or homophobia would be as well. 

Edited January 29, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

49 minutes ago, california boy said:

don't think it had much to do with academics.

It does if the bias is affecting a professor’s academic freedom. 

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, rongo said:

I agree with you that most non-Mormons think believing, observant Mormons are nuts. 

I believe they are nuts too. Then again I think non-Mormons are also nuts. I used to think I was the only sane person. I have given up that belief.

[CA Steve]

20 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Your use of anecdotes and rumors (you used that word) do not establish a major pattern of conduct.  I too have anecdotes, and mentioned some, but that in no way indicates that BYU is as you describe.

Hi Robert, 

Of course it doesn't nor am I under any impression that this does not occur at other schools.  The troublesome thing for me was this was/is happening to a close very faithful friend of mine, and now, this new policy appears to add to the concerns some there might have about openly expressing or even publishing views that some may label as anti-Mormon.

[Teancum]

13 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Anybody can give a down vote, even me?

Sure.  Feel free. I get a bunch of those.  It is a badge of honor.  😉

[rongo]

6 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I believe they are nuts too. Then again I think non-Mormons are also nuts. I used to think I was the only sane person. I have given up that belief.

My grandma: "Everyone is crazy except me and thee. And I often wonder about thee."  

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, CA Steve said:

Hi Robert, 

Of course it doesn't nor am I under any impression that this does not occur at other schools.  The troublesome thing for me was this was/is happening to a close very faithful friend of mine, and now, this new policy appears to add to the concerns some there might have about openly expressing or even publishing views that some may label as anti-Mormon.

Bad things happen at BYU, and that will continue to be the case.  We have to learn to roll with the punches.  I know people who have been done wrong there, but who took it remarkably well -- even discussing the wrongness openly and still retaining their faculty positions.  We discussed that several times here on this board.  I myself am still bitter about some of the betrayals and dishonesty.  However, when dealing with humans that is fully to be expected.  All the nonsense about "Happy Valley" is just that -- nonsense.  All is not sweetness and light, nor should we be silly enough to expect that.  Hopefully, the students at the Y learn some of life's valuable lessons while here.  I know I have.

[california boy]

14 hours ago, rongo said:

I think that California, in a lot of ways, is more foreign than Malaysia. Our principal moved to North Carolina to start a new charter school in our system there, and the new principal had run his own charter school in California for ten years. He told the staff in his first meeting that his family was really looking forward to "rejoining the United States."  

I agree with you that most non-Mormons think believing, observant Mormons are nuts. They're polite about it to their Mormon friends, but, yeah. 

Outside of California, and the western United States,I find that people have very little understanding or even know what Mormonism is.  If they have heard of it, they usually think it is some strange non mainstream  religion, lumped in with the Shakers, Amish, Quakers, etc.  I guess they have a point.  There is certainly enough doctrine that many would view as being kinda out there.