Interesting development with BYU

[Hamba Tuhan]

21 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

I believe Church-centric spirituality is an issue.

For many of us, the Church has been the vehicle that first introduced us to deity and then carefully nurtured our relationship with Jesus Christ. I'm one of those people.

[california boy]

1 hour ago, James 1 5 said:

Rarely if ever do we hear from Christ directly, with no intermediary between us.  Usually when Christ speaks to us he is speaking through the Holy Ghost or another divine angel or one of his Church representatives.  We think of his Church as his wife or our Mother, rather than him personally.  So generally we consider Christ to have told us whatever we believe Christ has told us through an intermediary which we then repeat and restate as if we are speaking for Christ by telling others what he told us.

From my point of view and in figurative term I would say you left the wife of Christ, his Church, because you believed representatives of Christ's wife were not saying what Christ said or would have said himself.  The Church was and still is his wife, but not Christ.  Now I'm assuming you no longer believe the Church is his wife and the members of it are not his children. 

Specifically I was told by Church leaders that if I only marry, I would become straight.  When I asked if this was a promise made by God or their own opinon.  They said it was a promise made by God.  That ended up not being true at all.  It wasn't a promise made by God.  Pushing gay members into marrying someone of the opposite sex became such an issue with the Church that Gordon B. Hinkley had to finally walk back that "advice".  So this doesn't really fit your narrative does it.  No stronger proof for me was needed that claims of speaking for God are not true.

Quote

 

You may still believe members of the Church are still children of our Eternal Father in heaven, but not the children of Christ, because only members of the true church of Christ are his children. 

 

Non members are not the children of Christ?? Well aren't you special.  Is this your opinion or is this doctrine?  Because if you are claiming this is doctrine, I am calling for a CFR.

Quote

 

You are still hearing only from intermediaries of Christ, at best.  When we hear from Christ, when we truly Hear Him, we are usually hearing from an intermediary, as I said.

 

Ah no.  I pray to Christ.  He answers my prayers and guides me.  I know, what a concept for Church members to understand.  This thinking is definitely the kind of thing that causes so many people who have left the Church feel they must leave Christ as well.  That is just not true.  Christ and His answers to prayer actually does happen outside the Church.

 

[california boy]

57 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It would be hard.  I think I would end up Jewish, but a Christian Jew.

Unless I ever got to a point where I could convince myself that the experiences that I've had with Christ were false or made up.  Then all bets would be off.  I do not think that I could ever be atheist or agnostic though.  I've had too many experiences with God--experiences that were not couched in "feeling the spirit" but in physical experiences--to be able to explain those away as bias or personal desire, etc.  

But my understanding of who God is could certainly change.  I suppose there could even be room to adopt a pagan belief system, if I lost touch with Christianity.

Or you could come to believe that you don't need an organized religion to find out the will of God and follow those promptings.  Christ has much distain for the leaders of the Jewish religion, but He didn't have distain for truth.  When the leaders of any church are not representing the will of God, it is not hard to walk away from them, but still walk towards Christ.  It is not a hard concept to understand.  Perhaps you can understand why say someone who is Catholic or Protestants can walk away from their religion when they no longer believe those leaders are doing the will of God.  Why would Mormonism be any different when their claims end up not being true either.

[let’s roll]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

For many of us, the Church has been the vehicle that first introduced us to deity and then carefully nurtured our relationship with Jesus Christ. I'm one of those people.

Understood.  I’m not trying to denigrate the Church in any way.  I spent two years inviting people full time to come unto Christ and join His Church and I am preparing to go to South America for 18 months to do the same.  

As a member of that Church for many years i’ve had numerous opportunities to invite my brothers and sisters to share their experiences in striving to accept the invitation in the greatest commandment.  Some of those conversations are among the most treasured experiences of my discipleship.  

Some others demonstrated how many of our brothers and sisters have yet to develop even rudimentary skills with respect to worship and communion and as a result have a self professed lack of relationship with Deity.  I’ve been thanked by many for sharing invitations and experiences to assist them in deepening that relationship.

Many use the Church effectively in that endeavor, some for a variety of reasons, struggle to make a sincere attempt.

 

[bluebell]

38 minutes ago, california boy said:

Or you could come to believe that you don't need an organized religion to find out the will of God and follow those promptings.  Christ has much disdain for the leaders of the Jewish religion, but He didn't have disdain for truth.  When the leaders of any church are not representing the will of God, it is not hard to walk away from them, but still walk towards Christ.  It is not a hard concept to understand.  Perhaps you can understand why say someone who is Catholic or Protestants can walk away from their religion when they no longer believe those leaders are doing the will of God.  Why would Mormonism be any different when their claims end up not being true either.

That's not my personality so I don't think I would go that way.  I don't interpret Christ in the bible as anti-organized religion (I think the NT shows the opposite and my personality is to place a lot of stock in that sort of thing), and I've never thought very highly of the "God is whatever or whoever the person believes Him/it to be" movement.  That way of being in the world is also not super conducive to my personality.  Essentially, I'd have to become a completely different person, on a fundamental level, to adopt either of those ideologies, which is possible, but it would be such a shift that there is no way to say that a belief in Christ or God would even survive it.

I think walking away from an old belief system toward something that you believed was better and closer to God's teachings would be less difficult than walking away towards nothing that seemed any better.  That's probably why so many who leave are so angry.  It's a lot to lose when there is nothing to replace it.

I think you're the first ex-member, that was active and believing, that I've ever heard say that it was not hard to leave.  Just goes to show that we all deal with things in our own way.

[Raingirl]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

It would be hard.  I think I would end up Jewish, but a Christian Jew.

Unless I ever got to a point where I could convince myself that the experiences that I've had with Christ were false or made up.  Then all bets would be off.  I do not think that I could ever be atheist or agnostic though.  I've had too many experiences with God--experiences that were not couched in "feeling the spirit" but in physical experiences--to be able to explain those away as bias or personal desire, etc.  

But my understanding of who God is could certainly change.  I suppose there could even be room to adopt a pagan belief system, if I lost touch with Christianity.

There is no such thing as a “Christian Jew’”.

[bluebell]

10 hours ago, Raingirl said:

There is no such thing as a “Christian Jew’”.

They are called Messianic Jews.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism

 

[James 1 5]

17 hours ago, california boy said:

Specifically I was told by Church leaders that if I only marry, I would become straight.  When I asked if this was a promise made by God or their own opinon.  They said it was a promise made by God.  That ended up not being true at all.  It wasn't a promise made by God.  Pushing gay members into marrying someone of the opposite sex became such an issue with the Church that Gordon B. Hinkley had to finally walk back that "advice".  So this doesn't really fit your narrative does it.  No stronger proof for me was needed that claims of speaking for God are not true.

So according to you, some unspecified Church leaders told you something and said that what they told you was based on a promise from God, and then later the leader of the whole Church "walked back that advice" as if to say God had never said it.  

I don't know why you would ever consider the words of any man to be the actual words of God, unless maybe God had told you personally that those men were speaking for him.  But then you would believe it because of what God told you personally, rather than because you believed those men.  I think that was a lesson you needed to learn.  I hope you now know how to know when God is telling you something.

17 hours ago, california boy said:

Non members are not the children of Christ?? Well aren't you special.  Is this your opinion or is this doctrine?  Because if you are claiming this is doctrine, I am calling for a CFR.

We are all children of our Father in heaven and the only way to also become children of Christ is by entering into a covenant with him through baptism administered by his priesthood authority, at which time that person then becomes a member of his church, his bride wife, and thus his child in that sense. 

17 hours ago, california boy said:

Ah no.  I pray to Christ.  He answers my prayers and guides me.  I know, what a concept for Church members to understand.  This thinking is definitely the kind of thing that causes so many people who have left the Church feel they must leave Christ as well.  That is just not true.  Christ and His answers to prayer actually does happen outside the Church.

Christ has told all of us that we should pray in the name of Jesus Christ to our Father in heaven/  When our Father answers us and speaks to us he usually does so through the power of the Holy Ghost. Rarely if ever does anyone hear from our Father or Christ directly.  If you believe Christ has spoken to you directly I would like you to tell me why you believe that is true. How would you know if it was Christ directly?  How would you know if it was instead the Holy Ghost or another divine messenger/angel who you can not see?

Edited February 4, 2022 by James 1 5

[california boy]

48 minutes ago, James 1 5 said:

So according to you, some unspecified Church leaders told you something and said that what they told you was based on a promise from God, and then later the leader of the whole Church "walked back that advice" as if to say God had never said it.  

I don't know why you would ever consider the words of any man to be the actual words of God, unless maybe God had told you personally that those men were speaking for him.  But then you would believe it because of what God told you personally, rather than because you believed those men.  I think that was a lesson you needed to learn.  I hope you now know how to know when God is telling you something.

We are all children of our Father in heaven and the only way to also become children of Christ is by entering into a covenant with him through baptism administered by his priesthood authority, at which time that person then becomes a member of his church, his bride wife, and thus his child in that sense. 

Christ has told all of us that we should pray in the name of Jesus Christ to our Father in heaven/  When our Father answers us and speaks to us he usually does so through the power of the Holy Ghost. Rarely if ever does anyone hear from our Father or Christ directly.  If you believe Christ has spoken to you directly I would like you to tell me why you believe that is true. How would you know if it was Christ directly?  How would you know if it was instead the Holy Ghost or another divine messenger/angel who you can not see?

Because I was a naive 20 year old kid who believed that God actually guided Church leaders.  I mean why would someone make such a promise if it wasn't true?  This was not an idol question.  It meant me making the most important decision of my life. I knew I was gay when I was 12 years old.   I had fasted and prayed, pleading to God for years to have this burden taken away from me.  I tried my best to magnify each and every assignment that I thought God was giving me to do.  I thought that if I did everything perfectly, then God would eventually answer my prayers.  It was actually what made me decide to go on a mission.  I thought that being gay was so horrible, when God would judge me harshly for being gay, I would at least be able to say I gave up two years of my life for Him.   And I was a good missionary.  I worked hard every day of my mission. I was made a district leader within 3 months of being out on my mission and a zone leader when I was only out. 9 months.  I so wanted to be straight like everyone else, if what the Church leader said  was a promise from God, then I would follow God's council.  I thought this was my answer to all those pleadings with God for all those years..  He was finally answering my prayers.  

The Church has changed A LOT from when I was growing up. We used to take the meaning of being a prophet and an apostle of God much more literally than today.  I actually thought that God did speak to His appointed servants and that those over me had special keys to administer their stewardships.  We were lead to believe that Christ was actually running the Church through His leaders, not just a bunch of men sitting around a table deciding policies and coming to an agreement.  

I no longer believe the Church leaders are any more then just good men trying their best to lead the Church.  I don't believe the Church has any special powers or covenants that get you into heaven.  I also no longe hate the fact that I am gay.   I am quite at peace with God.  So in the end, God did answer my prayers.

 

[rongo]

21 minutes ago, california boy said:

I knew I was gay when I was 12 years old.   I had fasted and prayed, pleading to God for years to have this burden taken away from me.  I tried my best to magnify each and every assignment that I thought God was giving me to do.  I thought that if I did everything perfectly, then God would eventually answer my prayers.  It was actually what made me decide to go on a mission.  I thought that being gay was so horrible, when God would judge me harshly for being gay, I would at least be able to say I gave up two years of my life for Him.   And I was a good missionary.  I worked hard every day of my mission. I was made a district leader within 3 months of being out on my mission and a zone leader when I was only out. 9 months.

This is completely separate and aside from all of this conversation, CB. I'm just curious for my own sake. Aside from doing well working hard on your mission, did you enjoy your mission?

I've shared before about a gay man in my ward who was excommunicated. He said in his council that the only time he had been happy in his life were his two years in Arkansas. He really lit up talking about his mission. He confessed to his mission president that he had not been honest in the interview process, and his mission president was furious and wanted to send him home. He spoke with Elder Ballard, and Elder Ballard asked if he could speak with him. They had a good talk over the phone, and Elder Ballard told the mission president that he thought he should stay and finish his mission. The mission president was non-plussed. He wasn't worthy and had lied. How could he hope to have the Spirit with him? Elder Ballard said that he understood all of that, but that he felt that he should stay and finish it just the same. I'm grateful for that, because it was the happiest time he had had or would have in his life to that point (this was part of his testimony he shared at his council).

He was different from you, in that he continued to strongly believe in the Church's truth claims (and, he sincerely didn't want to be gay, but had been completely unable to do anything about it. North Star and Evergreen had taken him as far as they were going to be able to, and I was even able to arrange a meeting with Dean Byrd before he passed away. He was very frank that while it is possible for gay men to develop straight feelings, it isn't for many, and it isn't possible to tell who the prime candidates that that are going to be. Generally, he said, homosexual activity after the teens usually makes it exponentially harder for success with that). He continued to believe that the Church's doctrine on homosexuality is true, and he supported and agreed with the Church. He said at his excommunication that he wasn't going to ever cross the threshold of our church again, which shocked all of us, because it was out of sync with his tone with everything else. I left him space for several weeks as he continued to attend, and then told him I was thrilled to continue to see him at church, but wondered what had changed, given what he had said. He said, "Where else can I go? The Church is true."

I'm glad he had such a good time and had happiness on his mission, and I wondered if you also enjoyed, had fun, and loved your mission. These are not always the same thing as climbing the "corporate ladder" with mission positions or even seeing numerical success. I'm just curious how you see and feel about your mission now, especially since you no longer believe.

Thanks in advance! 

[california boy]

58 minutes ago, rongo said:

This is completely separate and aside from all of this conversation, CB. I'm just curious for my own sake. Aside from doing well working hard on your mission, did you enjoy your mission?

I've shared before about a gay man in my ward who was excommunicated. He said in his council that the only time he had been happy in his life were his two years in Arkansas. He really lit up talking about his mission. He confessed to his mission president that he had not been honest in the interview process, and his mission president was furious and wanted to send him home. He spoke with Elder Ballard, and Elder Ballard asked if he could speak with him. They had a good talk over the phone, and Elder Ballard told the mission president that he thought he should stay and finish his mission. The mission president was non-plussed. He wasn't worthy and had lied. How could he hope to have the Spirit with him? Elder Ballard said that he understood all of that, but that he felt that he should stay and finish it just the same. I'm grateful for that, because it was the happiest time he had had or would have in his life to that point (this was part of his testimony he shared at his council).

He was different from you, in that he continued to strongly believe in the Church's truth claims (and, he sincerely didn't want to be gay, but had been completely unable to do anything about it. North Star and Evergreen had taken him as far as they were going to be able to, and I was even able to arrange a meeting with Dean Byrd before he passed away. He was very frank that while it is possible for gay men to develop straight feelings, it isn't for many, and it isn't possible to tell who the prime candidates that that are going to be. Generally, he said, homosexual activity after the teens usually makes it exponentially harder for success with that). He continued to believe that the Church's doctrine on homosexuality is true, and he supported and agreed with the Church. He said at his excommunication that he wasn't going to ever cross the threshold of our church again, which shocked all of us, because it was out of sync with his tone with everything else. I left him space for several weeks as he continued to attend, and then told him I was thrilled to continue to see him at church, but wondered what had changed, given what he had said. He said, "Where else can I go? The Church is true."

I'm glad he had such a good time and had happiness on his mission, and I wondered if you also enjoyed, had fun, and loved your mission. These are not always the same thing as climbing the "corporate ladder" with mission positions or even seeing numerical success. I'm just curious how you see and feel about your mission now, especially since you no longer believe.

Thanks in advance! 

Even though my reasons for going on my mission might have been a bit flawed, I did love my mission.  I soon realized that my bargin I made with God was really one sided.  I was getting all of the benefits.  It was a time in my life where the only thing I had to concern myself with was serving God.  And I totally agree with you that being asked to different leadership positions is not a real measure of how good of missionary you are.  But it is an indication that I took my mission seriously.  

I enjoyed all of the service I gave to the Church.  Loved working with the young men in the ward especially.  Seeing them change from boys to young men was really rewarding for me.  I like that more than serving in the Bishopric or High Council.  I am not really anti-Mormon like some on this board try to paint me as often as they can.  Even though I no longer believe in the claims of the Church, I still think it is wonderful for many people, especially if they fit the mold.  I have some children and a lot of my family that are still involved in the Church.  When it works for them, I do all I can to encourage their involvement.

 I don't think I attack the Church.  I have never criticized the leadership of the Church as being bad people.  I hope that I do offer an alternative view on some issues, issues that are incredibly personal to me.  And when I see the Church leaders do things that I strongly disagree with, I present why I don't agree with them.  Gone are the days when I thought everything they did was what God wants them to do.  Some of their policies have caused real harm in the past. Some have caused me personal harm.  Some of them they have corrected.  And some are still causing serious damage to many who want to stay in the Church.  I think a lot of what they are doing to LGBT students is wrong, unjustified and harmful.  That is a completely different discussion then whether the Church is applying the Law of Chastity correctly.  If the Church never accepts gay marriage or not really doesn't matter to me.  I am not fighting for that issue.  I am only fighting for a kinder, more fair way the Church treats its LGBT members and the LGBT community.