Interesting development with BYU

[Hamba Tuhan]

20 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Oh sorry. Do you want a big hug?  Is it tough for you when your church is criticized?

Not at all, as long as I know that the the critics are 'happy' ... 

[Scott Lloyd]

5 hours ago, Buckeye said:

Going on a tangent here. The article caption is “BYU, other Latter-day Saint schools will require temple recommends for new Latter-day Saint hires.”  Are we allowed to refer to ourselves as LDS now? 

It doesn’t say that. “Latter-day Saint” is fine; “LDS” and other initialisms or nicknames are frowned upon. 

Edited January 28, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[sunstoned]

8 hours ago, rongo said:

I think it's that these people specifically want to be snakes in the grass, embedded Fifth Columnists. It's not that they happen to not believe or disagree with key things --- they are actively building disciples and seeking to build followings. And succeeding in many cases.

We need to weed out those snakes and fifth columnists who are agitating for greater inclusion of the LGBTQ community. Muskets to the ready.

Edited January 28, 2022 by sunstoned

[sunstoned]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

Several years ago there were more students transferring from BYU to UVU for the first time. My husband, the UVU prof, labeled BYU as a feeder school for UVU.  

Many of the faculty at UVU that I work with are former BYU professors.  Many left over academic freedom issues.

[sunstoned]

6 hours ago, CA Steve said:

Sounds like a wonderful place to work.

Your new bishop disagrees with you on GLBT issues and just like that you are out of a job and probably a career.

 

Sign me up.

 

It can and does happen.  As Robert mentioned, there is no real tenure at BYU.  Your career is dependent on your Bishop's interview.

[CA Steve]

12 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I doubt that it works like that.

I don't doubt it does and I think it is worse than just the problem with bishop/stake president roulette being able to ruin a career. From the rumors t I heard there have been students reporting professors for what they are teaching and professors trying to get other professor fired for not backing their apologetic stance.

 

Shades of Ernest L. Wilkinson

 

Edited January 28, 2022 by CA Steve

[Duncan]

12 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

I don't doubt it does and I think it is worse than just the problem with bishop/stake president roulette being able to ruin a career. From the rumors t I heard there have been students reporting professors for what they are teaching and professors trying to get other professor fired for not backing their apologetic stance.

 

Shades of Ernest L. Wilkinson

 

There is or was that "Keeping Faith at BYU " nonsense a few years ago, I don't know if they are still around though

[Stormin' Mormon]

15 hours ago, 2BizE said:

Perhaps the church needs to get out of the higher learning arena.  Our students need to be taught and be prepared for life and the job market which requires critical thinking skills and various world views, which the church education system is unwilling to teach.

Perhaps the most important thing I took away from my BYU education was the understanding that faith and critical thinking skills are not mutually exclusive.  Just by existing, BYU sends a message to all members of the Church, that people of intelligence and academic attainments can and do embrace the truth claims of the Church.  The benefits of BYU therefore extend far beyond those who attend classes there. For that reason, I doubt that the Church will ever get out of the education business. 

For similar reasons, I've always taken great comfort in the "Latter-day Saints Scholars Testify" section of the FAIR website.  I've only read a handful of the testimonies there, but just KNOWING that they are there is sometimes enough.  https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/testimonies/scholars.  Smart people disagree about a lot of things, but at least some of those smart people have come to the same faith-based conclusions as I have.  Faith, intelligence, and critical thinking can all co-exist in the same person. 

Communicating that, I think, is the real value of BYU to the Church as a whole. 

 

 

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, CA Steve said:

I don't doubt it does and I think it is worse than just the problem with bishop/stake president roulette being able to ruin a career. From the rumors t I heard there have been students reporting professors for what they are teaching and professors trying to get other professor fired for not backing their apologetic stance.

Shades of Ernest L. Wilkinson

Yes, Wilkinson did conspire to do surveillance on professors whom he suspected of having the "wrong" political views, and he did other things which were dishonest in an era when a great many yokels were imagining commies under every bed and in every closet.  And he was publicly exposed and embarrassed for it.

Some BYU administrators get carried away with  power and exercise unrighteous dominion, and I have seen faculty members try to prevent others from pursuing certain programs of research which they feel uncomfortable with.  Some probably try to justify that as "protecting" the Gospel, or at least their interpretation of it.  One professor told me that he had no time for those with "hobby horses."  He and his buddies tried to interfere with an effort I was involved with, one of those buddies leaving BYU in disgrace, and the leader now retired and showing no interest in scholarship.

This life is a time of testing, to see what we are really made of.  BYU is merely a microcosm.  However, there is no basis for extrapolating from mere rumors to describing BYU as you do.

[rongo]

15 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

How does that all fit the fact that the entire BYU biology faculty has been evolutionist for decades?  The Board of Trustees has no problem with that.

An LDS anthropologist friend of mine even sees evolution as the means by which God developed all life on Earth, all with the same DNA blueprint.

Faith need not be at loggerheads with science.

Of course faith isn't at loggerheads with science, and BYU biology faculty are evolutionists. It was interesting to me how much pushback students gave in the 90s (which doesn't seem that long ago to me  ).

Students feeling strongly about evolution has probably lessened over the decades.

[rongo]

15 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I am sure that there are real people behind the anecdotes, but am also sure that the word "many" is hyperbolic.  I can recall the BYU student social justice warriors from the 70s and 80s, and I knew several of them personally, but they were far outnumbered by the right-wing ideologues who developed personality cults -- and who got fired.

It's double-digits, from my immediate firsthand circle of acquaintances (friends from wards I was the bishop in). More as the circle extends outward. The tension and conflict in the family because of their about faces because of their BYU professors was one of the things they wanted to talk to me about. 

I think you're several decades out of date on the right-wing idealogues developing cults of personality vs. left-wing idealogues developing cults of personality. I think it's flipped. John Birch and Bo Gritz were from another era, and I'm pretty sure the recent agitations at BYU had zero arch-conservative participation.  

Anecdotally, the families facing apostasy in their children have all had it come from the left, not the right.

[rongo]

11 hours ago, sunstoned said:

We need to weed out those snakes and fifth columnists who are agitating for greater inclusion of the LGBTQ community. Muskets to the ready.

Among other issues, yes. 

11 hours ago, sunstoned said:

Many of the faculty at UVU that I work with are former BYU professors.  Many left over academic freedom issues.

Sounds like there is a ready-made landing spot just a couple of exits up I-15. Seamless transition, win-win. 

[CA Steve]

32 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

However, there is no basis for extrapolating from mere rumors to describing BYU as you do.

I am not extrapolating.

Direct conversations with people involved whom I will not name.

 

[ttribe]

Sounds like a back door way to get employees to sign a loyalty oath. Interesting.

[Kenngo1969]

16 hours ago, smac97 said:

I had a friend in Army.  I'll call him Jim.  Jim could have been a great soldier.  He was very physically fit and very smart (we were studying Russian in a fairly difficult and intense one-year course at the Defense Language Institute in Monterey, CA).  He had no apparent problem with keeping up in classes, and physical fitness was a cinch.  

Then, one day, we watched as he was escorted away by two MPs (nicely).  It turns out that he had been caught smoking marijuana.  The rumor was that he was even given an opportunity to stay in the course (and in the Army) if promised to stop (there were some other punishments involved as well, like a reduction in rank and pay).  He declined.  On his way out he made a comment like "Eh, I wasn't liking the Army anyway."

Plenty of good and smart people do things like smoke marijuana.  But serving the Armed Forces is something of a unique gig.  You are held to a different and higher standard as compared to John Q. Public.  Those standards include restrictions on behavior (no smoking MJ, for example), as well as other constraints (hairstyles and other grooming requirements, socialization rules, constraints on speech, etc.).  Jim knew about all of these things when he signed up.  After a time, I guess he felt like he did not want to live with these constraints, so he left.  

Now, imagine if Jim joined the Army, disobeyed the rules he had agreed to follow, and then objected to any disciplinary measure arising from his misconduct.  Would that make sense?  I think . . . not.

So it is, I think, with students and faculty at BYU.  BYU is not everyone's cuppa, I get that.  But if you want to attend as a student or work there as faculty, there are expectations on behavior that are very clear prior to and during the association between the individual and the school.  I think it's fairly disingenuous to apply to BYU, voluntarily agree to abide by its rules, and then object when you later break those rules or work against BYU's sponsoring institution.

Thanks,

-Smac

Given the concerns expressed by the letter writer whose letter you quoted earlier, the career United States Army officer and West Point faculty member, rather than pursuing the career path in the military that he attempted, perhaps "Jim," instead, should have attempted to matriculate at West Point, where (if the letter writer is correct) "Jim" would have fit in just fine!      

[smac97]

16 hours ago, Teancum said:

More knuckling down and entrenchment.  Good luck with all of that.

It appears you were intending to be derogatory with this remark, but I think BYU will be better off with clarifying and, to an extent, returning to its fundamendal mandates from the Church.  Elder Holland's remarks were, I think, one of the first public moves of this process.  

I'm glad to see this.  I want BYU to be unique and distinctive.  I want it to reflect the tenets and beliefs of the Church, while also providing a top-notch secular education.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Robert F. Smith]

33 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

I am not extrapolating.

Direct conversations with people involved whom I will not name.

Your use of anecdotes and rumors (you used that word) do not establish a major pattern of conduct.  I too have anecdotes, and mentioned some, but that in no way indicates that BYU is as you describe.

[Kenngo1969]

33 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Sounds like a back door way to get employees to sign a loyalty oath. Interesting.

Well, depending on how broadly one defines the perhaps-nebulous, perhaps-amorphous term "Loyalty Oath," BYU and its powers-that-be have been requiring that for decades.

[Kenngo1969]

23 minutes ago, smac97 said:

It appears you were intending to be derogatory with this remark, but I think BYU will be better off with clarifying and, to an extent, returning to its fundamendal mandates from the Church.  Elder Holland's remarks were, I think, one of the first public moves of this process.  

I'm glad to see this.  I want BYU to be unique and distinctive.  I want it to reflect the tenets and beliefs of the Church, while also providing a top-notch secular education.

Thanks,

-Smac

Oh, come on, Smac97!  Get with the program!  Of course BYU can be "unique" all BYU wants to be "unique" ... as long as its indistinguishable from any other institution of higher learning in the English-speaking world!  

 

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

Of course faith isn't at loggerheads with science, and BYU biology faculty are evolutionists. It was interesting to me how much pushback students gave in the 90s (which doesn't seem that long ago to me  ).

Students feeling strongly about evolution has probably lessened over the decades.

In any event, I'm glad that the Church of Jesus Christ has clarified that the what and the why, respectively, are far, far more important than precisely how.

[Robert F. Smith]

54 minutes ago, rongo said:

It's double-digits, from my immediate firsthand circle of acquaintances (friends from wards I was the bishop in). More as the circle extends outward. The tension and conflict in the family because of their about faces because of their BYU professors was one of the things they wanted to talk to me about. 

I think you're several decades out of date on the right-wing idealogues developing cults of personality vs. left-wing idealogues developing cults of personality. I think it's flipped. John Birch and Bo Gritz were from another era, and I'm pretty sure the recent agitations at BYU had zero arch-conservative participation.  

Anecdotally, the families facing apostasy in their children have all had it come from the left, not the right.

That is indeed a familiar pattern, but that doesn't mean that we need to overemphasize it.  At the same time, controversial attitudes about "correct" LDS doctrine are still very frequently infected by right-wing attitudes among patriots, preppers, prophets, and pipsqueaks.  I have been keeping track of the various splinter groups and individuals now for over 50 years, and we discuss some of them on this board from time to time.  There has been no diminution of those right-wing tendencies among wayward LDS members.

By the way, are you mistakenly classifying Chad Daybell's Doomsday Cult as left-wing?

[smac97]

19 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

 

Quote

 

Quote

 

I don't doubt it does and I think it is worse than just the problem with bishop/stake president roulette being able to ruin a career. From the rumors t I heard there have been students reporting professors for what they are teaching and professors trying to get other professor fired for not backing their apologetic stance.

Shades of Ernest L. Wilkinson

 

Yes, Wilkinson did conspire to do surveillance on professors whom he suspected of having the "wrong" political views, and he did other things which were dishonest in an era when a great many yokels were imagining commies under every bed and in every closet.  And he was publicly exposed and embarrassed for it.

Some BYU administrators get carried away with  power and exercise unrighteous dominion, and I have seen faculty members try to prevent others from pursuing certain programs of research which they feel uncomfortable with.  Some probably try to justify that as "protecting" the Gospel, or at least their interpretation of it.  One professor told me that he had no time for those with "hobby horses."  He and his buddies tried to interfere with an effort I was involved with, one of those buddies leaving BYU in disgrace, and the leader now retired and showing no interest in scholarship.

This life is a time of testing, to see what we are really made of.  BYU is merely a microcosm.  However, there is no basis for extrapolating from mere rumors to describing BYU as you do.

 

 

I am not extrapolating.

Direct conversations with people involved whom I will not name.

First you said "{f}rom the rumors I heard," but now you are saying you obtained this information from "{d}irect conversations with people involved."  That seems pretty inconsistent.  So which is it?  "Rumors" or "direct" statements from percipient witnesses to the events in question? 

And if the latter, why did you initially characterize their statements "rumors?"  Could you see how you retroactively elevating your purported information from "rumors" to "{d}irect conversations with people involved" comes across as bolstering?

And the bolstering gets worse when you these multiple hearsay "rumors" end up being from anonymous sources (notably plural now).  The problem is that you are anonymous, as we don't know your IRL name or otherwise have any meaningful ability to gauge your competency as a reliable purveyor of information from third-party sources (who are also, conveniently, anonymous).  But we are nevertheless supposed to find all this stuff credible and percipient and accurate.  Why?  Again, you begand with sharing "rumors" you have "heard" about "bishop/stake president roulette" at BYU.  Then, when mildly challenged on this, you pivot and say that you are not "extrapolating" from "rumors" (even though you actually used the word "rumors" to characterize your information), and declare that you have had "{d}irect conversations with people involved," whom you nevertheless "will not name."

Oh.

This sort of untethered and irresponsible rhetoric is how we've ended up with anti-vax hysteria and other types of misinformation.  People go online (usually anonymously) and proclaim all sorts of things based on "sources" that are difficult or impossible to verify.  But we are nevertheless expected to uncritically accept these sourced-from-multiple-and-anonymous-hearsay narratives because the person conveying them (in this instance, you) assures us that the (other anonymous) sources of information are nevertheless trustworthy.

I hope you can understand why this doesn't move the needle on Robert's point that "there is no basis for extrapolating from mere rumors to describing BYU as you do."

Thanks,

-Smac

[rongo]

35 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

That is indeed a familiar pattern, but that doesn't mean that we need to overemphasize it.  At the same time, controversial attitudes about "correct" LDS doctrine are still very frequently infected by right-wing attitudes among patriots, preppers, prophets, and pipsqueaks.  I have been keeping track of the various splinter groups and individuals now for over 50 years, and we discuss some of them on this board from time to time.  There has been no diminution of those right-wing tendencies among wayward LDS members.

By the way, are you mistakenly classifying Chad Daybell's Doomsday Cult as left-wing?

I wasn't aware Daybell/Vallow had any presence or following at BYU.   Or that numerically, they have much pull even outside of BYU. They are as fringe as it gets. 

Edited January 28, 2022 by rongo

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, CA Steve said:

I don't doubt it does and I think it is worse than just the problem with bishop/stake president roulette being able to ruin a career. From the rumors t I heard there have been students reporting professors for what they are teaching and professors trying to get other professor fired for not backing their apologetic stance.

 

Shades of Ernest L. Wilkinson

 

While I am not an ardent defender of BYU (maybe if they hadn’t rejected my application!!!!) this kind of weirdness is prevalent in many universities. BYU has its own flavor but university politics in general are filled with the most petty amateurish games of oneupmanship I have ever experienced. They make Congress look functional. One reason I decided not to go with a career in academia is that I don’t like that kind of environment while I am simultaneously pretty good at manipulating people in that kind of environment so I would probably end up in hell if I worked in it for too long.

[Kenngo1969]

13 hours ago, sunstoned said:

Many of the faculty at UVU that I work with are former BYU professors.  Many left over academic freedom issues.

It's interesting.  I've heard (but I don't have a source) that nonmember professors at BYU have indicated that there is more academic freedom there than there has been at other places they have taught.  In any event, even if you (and your sources) are correct about the level of academic freedom at BYU (asserted lack thereof), it may be a "pick-one's-poison" proposition: If academic freedom really is as restrained at BYU as some claim it is, a prospective faculty member could be faced with the proposition of (a) teaching at BYU and not contradicting, openly, the orthodoxy of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or (b) teaching elsewhere in academia and not contradicting, openly, the liberal orthodoxy that is expected and promoted so widely elsewhere (often to the hostile exclusion of any contrasting viewpoints).