Never doing enough

[The Nehor]

34 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

Is this an original statement? Screenshooting and saving.  Do I quote ‘The Nehor’ in RS and Sunday School? 

I didn’t copy it from anywhere but I am sure someone somewhere expressed a similar sentiment. Probably not with the specific “countdown clock” bit though.

Edited January 18, 2022 by The Nehor

[The Nehor]

58 minutes ago, Duncan said:

something that drives me bananas is Elder Wilford Andersen of the Seventy came to our Stake several times, with the Area 70 in tow, and basically said what you were saying yet after he left the Area Seventy had each Bishop, EQ Pres. etc make goals and plans.I said in a meeting am I the only one who remembers Elder Andersen coming here? like 2 weeks ago?! Are you people crazy? It seems a waste of time to attend these meetings and  learn nothing from them because it's back to what we were doing before!

I’d walk out and say I prefer to follow the counsel of my leaders.

Then again I am always up for a good excuse to walk out of a dull meeting and there are very few things duller than goal-setting meetings.

[rongo]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

My husband laments at the goals that each ward has to set for how many people they are going to baptize for the year. It drives him crazy.  

I sometimes drove the stake presidency crazy when I was a bishop because my wards didn't/refused to set baptismal goals. I explained that I don't believe God works that way (inspires us with a baptismal number that involves and depends on the agency of other people). We set goals that we have a say in (e.g., enabling and empowering people to have more and better gospel conversations, but even then, there was no number attached. The community firesides we did that brought in over 130 non-members were because of our goals, but there were no numbers attached to those, either. Our goals centered around tangible things we could do to encourage gospel conversations). Once, I was asked in a meeting with a General authority by a member of the stake presidency what we had done differently when we led the stake in baptisms (the previous year we had the fewest). My answer was that we had done the exact same things we have always done; sometimes you have "up" years, and sometimes "down" years. I also said that I didn't think that the "gimmicks" that we often try to increase baptisms really work --- they are just tricks that might make people feel like they are doing something "new" or "different." 

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

The first rule of goal setting is never set a goal that you can't control the outcome of but the church is in love with asking people to set those kinds of goals.

To me, if the outcome is assured, then they aren't really goals at all. Goals should be aspirational, and a stretch. 

When my son was on his mission, I sent him in a letter some excerpts and comments from Dr. Richard Muller's book "Now." Dr. Muller is an astrophysicist and the father of the "dark energy" theory. His book was quite religious in outlook, and had a lot of wisdom along with the scientific explanations and descriptions. What I sent him that relates to this topic was his opinion that SMART goals actually lead to less achievement (SMART = specific, measurable, achievable, realistic, and time-bound). Church bureaucracy (missionary department, leadership chain, etc.) and all organizations now are obsessed with SMART goals. This resonated with me as a teacher, because we’re so used to going through the motions with SMART goals at school that it’s kind of a joke. My current school is the opposite, but the district I was in for almost 20 years was very much like this. From an excerpt from my letter to my son:

---

“Our department needs to come up with a SMART goal by 3:00 today and report it to the district office. Okay. How about ‘By March 15, 70% of our level 1 students will make 5% growth on their quarterly assessments?” The problem with these goals according to Muller, which dovetails with my experience (which, again, are all the rage in education and business (and hopefully not your mission, but even my mission was plagued with truisms like “If you fail to plan, you plan to fail” and goals around planning and numbers) is a) by definition and by design, they are easy to achieve and easy to measure, so they are quickly reached and people feel like they don’t need to progress any more. And b) they prevent real growth in intangible areas, areas that are probably the most important. “I really want to be more patient, procrastinate less, and be kinder and more charitable to people” is a great goal, if it’s sincere, but it fails all of the SMART goal targets. And yet, someone really striving to do better with that is going to grow a lot more than someone trying to become 16% kinder, as measured by ___ by next zone conference, or end of 3rd quarter, or whatever."

Muller wrote that: "Problems worthy of attack hit you back," and the thought occurred to me that "problems that hit back" are unwelcome in the SMART goal world, but the real progress is made fighting the problems worthy of attack. Which cannot be SMART goal-ized. That’s not what our department meeting minutes are supposed to report back on, though . . ."

---

I really think that the obsession with goal numbers makes people (consciously or unconsciously) to set goals that are easily achieved or easily achieved within a time frame. I think it keeps people from taking on things that are more worthy of being tackled, and the really important things aren't measurable within the SMART framework, anyway.

I think the Church's obsession with goals stems from the overabundance of business executives among General Authorities --- and the influence of the bureaucracy in the COB. 

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, rongo said:

I sometimes drove the stake presidency crazy when I was a bishop because my wards didn't/refused to set baptismal goals. I explained that I don't believe God works that way (inspires us with a baptismal number that involves and depends on the agency of other people). We set goals that we have a say in (e.g., enabling and empowering people to have more and better gospel conversations, but even then, there was no number attached. The community firesides we did that brought in over 130 non-members were because of our goals, but there were no numbers attached to those, either. Our goals centered around tangible things we could do to encourage gospel conversations). Once, I was asked in a meeting with a General authority by a member of the stake presidency what we had done differently when we led the stake in baptisms (the previous year we had the fewest). My answer was that we had done the exact same things we have always done; sometimes you have "up" years, and sometimes "down" years. I also said that I didn't think that the "gimmicks" that we often try to increase baptisms really work --- they are just tricks that might make people feel like they are doing something "new" or "different." 

To me, if the outcome is assured, then they aren't really goals at all. Goals should be aspirational, and a stretch. 

When my son was on his mission, I sent him in a letter some excerpts and comments from Dr. Richard Muller's book "Now." Dr. Muller is an astrophysicist and the father of the "dark energy" theory. His book was quite religious in outlook, and had a lot of wisdom along with the scientific explanations and descriptions. What I sent him that relates to this topic was his opinion that SMART goals actually lead to less achievement (SMART = specific, measurable, achievable, realistic, and time-bound). Church bureaucracy (missionary department, leadership chain, etc.) and all organizations now are obsessed with SMART goals. This resonated with me as a teacher, because we’re so used to going through the motions with SMART goals at school that it’s kind of a joke. My current school is the opposite, but the district I was in for almost 20 years was very much like this. From an excerpt from my letter to my son:

---

“Our department needs to come up with a SMART goal by 3:00 today and report it to the district office. Okay. How about ‘By March 15, 70% of our level 1 students will make 5% growth on their quarterly assessments?” The problem with these goals according to Muller, which dovetails with my experience (which, again, are all the rage in education and business (and hopefully not your mission, but even my mission was plagued with truisms like “If you fail to plan, you plan to fail” and goals around planning and numbers) is a) by definition and by design, they are easy to achieve and easy to measure, so they are quickly reached and people feel like they don’t need to progress any more. And b) they prevent real growth in intangible areas, areas that are probably the most important. “I really want to be more patient, procrastinate less, and be kinder and more charitable to people” is a great goal, if it’s sincere, but it fails all of the SMART goal targets. And yet, someone really striving to do better with that is going to grow a lot more than someone trying to become 16% kinder, as measured by ___ by next zone conference, or end of 3rd quarter, or whatever."

Muller wrote that: "Problems worthy of attack hit you back," and the thought occurred to me that "problems that hit back" are unwelcome in the SMART goal world, but the real progress is made fighting the problems worthy of attack. Which cannot be SMART goal-ized. That’s not what our department meeting minutes are supposed to report back on, though . . ."

---

I really think that the obsession with goal numbers makes people (consciously or unconsciously) to set goals that are easily achieved or easily achieved within a time frame. I think it keeps people from taking on things that are more worthy of being tackled, and the really important things aren't measurable within the SMART framework, anyway.

I think the Church's obsession with goals stems from the overabundance of business executives among General Authorities --- and the influence of the bureaucracy in the COB. 

It always makes me laugh when we get lessons or reminders that "we don't convert people, the spirit does" and then in the next sentence we are asked to tell them how many people we are going to convert for the year.  

I think sometimes we forget about people's agency.  We act like there is a secret recipe that, if we only knew it, everyone we applied it to would be baptized, or come back to church.  We are constantly trying to come up with the 'thing' so we can apply it and get everyone into the pews.

My parents were inactive until I was 9.  My mom once told me that when I was around 5 they had an amazing bishop who really reached out to our family.  He was incredibly loving and kind and he (and others in the ward at that time) reached out often. My parents really really loved him.  My mom still speaks very highly of him 30+ years later. But they were not ready to come back at that point and there wasn't anything that he or those other people could have done in that moment to change that.  They did what they could (and what they should have been doing), but my parents' agency trumped it all.

A few years later, after my grandparents became active again and were married in the temple, my mom and dad were finally ready to come back.  The timing was theirs.  It wasn't dependent upon the ward.

I brought this up once in a ward council meeting because we lose sight of it all the time.  There are things that we can do to help someone want to come back or to make it easier for them, and there are things we should do to reach out and make sure they know they are loved, but there is nothing that we can do that will override the person's agency.  There is no combinations of coins that we can put into their machine that will guarantee the result that we are after.

[The Nehor]

9 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I think sometimes we forget about people's agency.  We act like there is a secret recipe that, if we only knew it, everyone we applied it to would be baptized, or come back to church.  We are constantly trying to come up with the 'thing' so we can apply it and get everyone into the pews.

You can always point out if there was such a way Jesus (being perfect) would have used it and converted everyone. Even if you allow Jesus to make mistakes as some do you Father losing a third part of the host of heaven (whatever quantity that is) while in His presence and if there was a perfect conversion tool then omniscience should have found it and used it then.

[bluebell]

9 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

You can always point out if there was such a way Jesus (being perfect) would have used it and converted everyone. Even if you allow Jesus to make mistakes as some do you Father losing a third part of the host of heaven (whatever quantity that is) while in His presence and if there was a perfect conversion tool then omniscience should have found it and used it then.

I like to bring up lucifer and Father in Heaven whenever people try to say that parents can control whether or not their kids end up active or are "good" kids growing up, depending on how good of a parent they were.

You can't be a better parent than Heavenly Father is, and yet He still lost a third of His children, and one became satan.

 

[strappinglad]

37 minutes ago, rongo said:

overabundance of business executives

This, the corporate mind set. 

I have mentioned this before , but for emphasis , a Minister of education in my province once declared his goal " to have every student score ABOVE the provincial average on the provincial exams . " HMMM !

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, strappinglad said:

This, the corporate mind set. 

I have mentioned this before , but for emphasis , a Minister of education in my province once declared his goal " to have every student score ABOVE the provincial average on the provincial exams . " HMMM !

Well?

Don’t keep us in suspense. Did he pull it off?

[katherine the great]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

I think sometimes we forget about people's agency. 

Yes! Being asked to set goals for our own behavior (ie: I will actively look for someone to share the gospel with) I think is reasonable. But to set a goal for someone else’s behavior (I will baptize this person) is ridiculous.

[pogi]

On 1/17/2022 at 9:59 AM, Fether said:

I’ve heard this idea that people always feel like they are not doing enough, and those comments sometime go as far as to say that the church makes people feel like they aren’t doing enough. I’ve heard this from family members and friends. Some active and some are former members.

This is an idea I have heard throughout my life, yet is completely alien to me. I hope not the diminish the feelings of those that feel this way, I only want to understand why some feel this and others don’t.

I’ll share some experiences I have had growing up and how I reacted to them.

Pornography:

as most young men, I made viewing pornography a bit of a habit. I knew it was wrong and wanted to stop. I spoke to the bishop and he restricted my ability to participate in the sacrament. There was even a time I sat in sacrament meeting and had to pass on the sacrament tray without partaking to a friend of mine next to me, who clearly noticed. Immediately after my entire family went up and bore their testimony on the power of repentance, all of them were crying… it was insanely awkward for me, but something I laugh about today.

Despite all this, I never once felt shame. There were obvious feelings of guilt, but I never once believed myself to be worthless. Nor do I remember belittling myself.

In fact, from an early age, I remember deliberately developing a habit of telling myself “what I did was wrong, but it isnt who I am not who I have to be.” That phrase would give me energy to repent and move forward as happy and hopeful as ever. I would then redouble my efforts to change. And one day I finally overcame it all.

I give thanks to the church and it’s leaders for instilling this resilience in me. The countless messages of “you are not your sin”, “through Christ, you can overcome whatever sin you face”, and “God loves you despite the sins you have”. It was that messaging that helped me avoid the toxic feelings of shame.

HOWEVER, as many know, this isn’t the same with everyone. One of my closest friends growing up was about my age, same ward, same lifestyle, and I would argue was a closer follower of Christ than I was, had a VERY different experience. They went through similar struggles with pornography, but instead of feeling hope, they felt shame. They buried that feeling deep. One day, that shame, coupled with other problems, broke their testimony and they had their names removed from the church.

Common denominators between us:

- deeply active in church

- Watched all sessions of general conference every 6 months

- read scriptures regularly

- had faith this was the true church

Family:

My mom often says “no matter how hard you try, you are going to screw your kid up somehow”. What she really means by that is we are imperfect beings and there is no point in expecting our abilities as parents to produce this picture perfect family we dream about. But that shouldn’t stop us from trying.

I have heard countless stories of parents feeling like failures because they aren’t doing daily scripture study, family temple trips, FHE, and countless other things we are expected to do as parents. 

I have never felt this, not experienced anything like this. It’s not because I'm a perfect or I don’t care about growing as a parent. My wife and I are constantly expanding our home curriculum in how we treat our kids, raise them, teach them, and love them. We read books on this too (we just finished Joe DeSena’s 10 rules of resilience for raising families and it was phenomenal! So many things we are planning on adding).

Gospel Living:

This is probably the most common one I hear. People blame the church for shaming them into not doing enough. Not paying enough tithing, not reading enough scripture, not going to the temple enough, not doing family history, not knowing enough information to share in gospel doctrine class, not having a particular calling… on and on.

Once again, I have felt the need to grow on these areas, but never shame. I’m fact, I get immense energy when someone points out that my knowledge of the scriptures may not be where it ought to be. I get excited when a church leader says “you need to work more on your prayers”. This stuff gets me excited because it is an opportunity to enrich my life in a better way. My list of things to accomplish and worn on is insanely high right now… but that doesn’t bother me one bit. I’m excited to master the one I am working on, and then move on to the other. And more often than not, I am working on many at the same time and I am excited to get to a point I. Life where I excel in that particular topic so I can start putting energy on another.

HOWEVER, I know this isn’t the norm. I knew a wonderful mother in my ward while growing who physically could not be at church because she would feel immense shame a guilt for not doing enough. She left the church to escape that feeling.

MAIN QUESTIONS:

I am completely oblivious to the feeling of shame and chronic depression. The exact opposite is true. As I said earlier, I get energized when I feel a little fire under me. I get excited when I envision myself as someone who has mastered a particular principle.

I don’t know what it is like to feel those negative feeling so often, but I do not want to add to struggles others face.

* What is the difference between people like me and those that are prone to harmful self talk and shaming?

  - Chemical imbalances in the brain?

  - Our (mis)interpretation of the messages?

  - Ways we are raised by parents?

  - Lack if scripture study?

* How do we teach correct principles without triggering others who are prone to shameful thinking?

 

Good questions!

I believe that we all  live on a spectrum or continuum of shame, and no one is entirely free of it.  Shame is what causes us to hide from God (like Adam in Eden) and from others.  We all wear different masks to some degree and are not truly authentic all the time.  We put on makeup (figuratively) to cover up our wrinkles, our scars, our imperfections, and our unattractive naked and raw faces.  Just look at Facebook for evidence of this.  Shame is at the core of that.  If you have perfectionism - you suffer from shame.  On the other extreme of the spectrum, if you don't live up to your abilities and give up on life - you suffer from shame. 

Quote

The most paradoxical aspect of neurotic shame is that it is the core motivator of the superachieved and the underachieved, the star and the scapegoat, the righteous and the wretched, the powerful and the pathetic.

― John Bradshaw, Healing the Shame that Binds You

We all fall somewhere in that spectrum and have shame to some degree.

Many people are completely unaware of their shame.

Quote

Family secrets can go back for generations. They can be about suicides, homicides, incest, abortions, addictions, public loss of face, financial disaster, etc. All the secrets get acted out. This is the power of toxic shame. The pain and suffering of shame generate automatic and unconscious defenses. Freud called these defenses by various names: denial, idealization of parents, repression of emotions and dissociation from emotions. What is important to note is that we can’t know what we don’t know. Denial, idealization, repression and dissociation are unconscious survival mechanisms. Because they are unconscious, we lose touch with the shame, hurt and pain they cover up. We cannot heal what we cannot feel. So without recovery, our toxic shame gets carried for generations.

― John Bradshaw, Healing the Shame that Binds You

The source of shame is predominantly familial (I believe), but it can be culturally based or from interactions with others as well. 

Quote

The job of parents is to model. Modeling includes how to be a man or woman; how to relate intimately to another person; how to acknowledge and express emotions; how to fight fairly; how to have physical, emotional and intellectual boundaries; how to communicate; how to cope and survive life’s unending problems; how to be self-disciplined; and how to love oneself and another. Shame-based parents cannot do any of these. They simply don’t know how.

Quote

If our primary caregivers are shame-based, they will act shameless and pass their toxic shame onto us. There is no way to teach self-value if one does not value oneself. Toxic shame is multigenerational. It is passed from one generation to the next. Shame-based people find other shame-based people and get married. As each member of a couple carries the shame from his or her own family system, their marriage will be grounded in their shame-core. The major outcome of this will be a lack of intimacy. It’s difficult to let someone get close to you if you feel defective and flawed as a human being. Shame-based couples maintain nonintimacy through poor communication, nonproductive circular fighting, games, manipulation, vying for control, withdrawal, blaming and confluence. Confluence is the agreement never to disagree. Confluence creates pseudointimacy.

― John Bradshaw, Healing the Shame that Binds You

Shame is beyond evident in the church and our culture, even at the pulpit at the highest levels.  Those who are more shame based will hear and internalize those messages more.  Of course, the pure gospel is not shame based at all.  It is the opposite.  It is about redemption and maintaining our core identify as a child of God and being of "great worth" even in the eyes of the almighty (regardless of the poor choices we make).  Even while a shame based person might believe this in their head, their subconscious mind is seared with shame and keeps them from progressing in true and undefiled intimacy before God and man in unconditional love.  It truly takes a "change of heart" to overcome this.  It is something that will take an eternity to overcome. 

I am convinced that shame is the #1 roadblock to oneness with God.  It is the #1 tool of the adversary.  Once it is instilled in our hearts, he hardly has to lift a finger to work on us.  It has existed in the heart of man ever since the fall, when Satan whispered in Adams ear "see that you are naked...hide!"  

   

Edited January 18, 2022 by pogi

[LoudmouthMormon]

On 1/17/2022 at 9:59 AM, Fether said:

Family:

My mom often says “no matter how hard you try, you are going to screw your kid up somehow”.

The following is not a true story.  (Not for me at least, but I bet someone out there can probably relate.) :

Quote

 

When my sibling and I were kids, our parents gave us gold stars when we did something they deemed worthy of praise.  At the end of each week, they would add up the stars, and give the winner this crown to signify who they loved more.  It was just a game, but our malleable young minds internalized said constant fear of inadequacy.  It's why he and I have achieved so much.  We were incentivized from an early age to constantly strive towards greater and greater accomplishments.  It's also why I have low self esteem, horrible OCD, and I'm terrified of depending on other people.  

Everyone scars their children, Fether.  It's unavoidable.  The trick is to hurt them in a way that motivates them.

 

 

[rpn]

I think the difference is

fully understanding the Atonement

the way we talk to ourselves (healthy thinking skills)

the way our families talk to us and each other  (whether blame and thunder of wickedness, or accepting personal best and quick repentance of actual sin  IOW see understanding the Atonement by family members)

the absence of verbal or other abuse, put downs, bullying,

the presence of many experiences messing up, picking ourselves up, figuring out how to do it after all,

a habit of being anxiously engaged in good causes that leave a lot of good memories of having done good.

 

A testimony that our Heavenly Parents and our Savior know us personally and intimately by name in every moment of our lives and that we can return with honor at the end of our lives if we keep working on ourselves is helpful too.

 

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

I am convinced that shame is the #1 roadblock to oneness with God.  It is the #1 tool of the adversary.  Once it is instilled in our hearts, he hardly has to lift a finger to work on us.  It has existed in the heart of man ever since the fall, when Satan whispered in Adams ear "see that you are naked...hide!"    

I worked hard to overcome original shame and all I got is a criminal record for indecent exposure. Life just isn’t fair.

[Calm]

8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I didn’t copy it from anywhere but I am sure someone somewhere expressed a similar sentiment. Probably not with the specific “countdown clock” bit though.

I googled it, no direct quote came up. 
 

All the hits focused on “countdown clock”, so couldn’t check for similar ideas. 
 

Nothing is coming up for “goals are just disappointments” besides how to realistically set goals to not be disappointed. 
 

Not a thorough treatment to defeat a plagiarism charge, but my view it is good enough for the purpose intended. 
 

I will break a gut laughing if I start seeing it as a RS meme though.  

Edited January 19, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

4 hours ago, rpn said:

A testimony that our Heavenly Parents and our Savior know us personally and intimately by name in every moment of our lives and that we can return with honor at the end of our lives if we keep working on ourselves is helpful too.

This is my anchor. 

[sunstoned]

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I’d walk out and say I prefer to follow the counsel of my leaders.

Then again I am always up for a good excuse to walk out of a dull meeting and there are very few things duller than goal-setting meetings.

I have never felt guilty of discreetly slipping out of boring meetings.  I know there are many like minded people who have slipped out when I was speaking.

[Kenngo1969]

On 1/17/2022 at 9:08 PM, bsjkki said:

...

@The Nehor

Thanks for that story. My son describes his mission as 2 years of never feeling good enough. Came home broken. 
 

I'm sorry to hear that.    (I know that probably sounds trite, but I really am!)  I might've said the same thing if I'd had to serve my entire mission under my first mission president and if hadn't gotten the (alas, all-too-brief!) opportunity to serve under my second mission president. 

It's interesting, too, because I was accused of some major wrongdoing on my mission right as my first mission president left and my second mission president arrived.  (I'm not sure if I would have faced disfellowshipment or excommunication if someone hadn't believed me about what really happened, but the allegation might have been serious enough to fall just short of something like that). 

Anyway, while there's no way I could know for sure what would have happened if my first mission president had tried to handle it, I feel fortunate that the aftermath occurred at the start of my second mission president's tenure.  The first thing he told me when we met after the "meet-the-new-president" meeting is, "Elder Gourdin, my Assistants tell me we need to talk.  Is that true?"  My heart was in my throat, and my stomach was in my chest, but I said, "Well, President, if the Assistants say we need to talk, I guess we need to talk."

Fortunately, I was exonerated.   And what also is fortunate is that my second mission president didn't allow a [stupid] allegation [from Satan  only knows where: See 2 Nephi 9:34] to color the entirety of our all-too-brief relationship.  (Whew!)  Aaaaah!  Fun times!   Fun times!!!

Edited January 19, 2022 by Kenngo1969

[LoudmouthMormon]

Goals are OK, as long as they are achievable. For example: “I will Fit into my pre-Covid clothes.”. That is a bad goal. “I will go to the gym three days a week for at least an hour“ that is a good goal. You can schedule that. You can organize your day to ensure it happens.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Goals are OK, as long as they are achievable. For example: “I will Fit into my pre-Covid clothes.”. That is a bad goal. “I will go to the gym three days a week for at least an hour“ that is a good goal. You can schedule that. You can organize your day to ensure it happens.

Lately I have been wearing jeans I haven’t worn since college and my weight down where it hasn’t been since High School. It is doable.

Admittedly it took a horrific scare to motivate me but it worked. By scare I mean my blood pressure made it unlikely I could keep taking my meds so I crash dieted to get my blood pressure under control and lost 20 pounds in a month and a half.

[pogi]

3 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Goals are OK, as long as they are achievable. For example: “I will Fit into my pre-Covid clothes.”. That is a bad goal. “I will go to the gym three days a week for at least an hour“ that is a good goal. You can schedule that. You can organize your day to ensure it happens.

I agree that goals can be a good thing.   Making baptismal goals however can easily skew our perspective and purpose in such matters.  It can easily become more about us and boosting our own egos or trying to please our Stake President - who himself may be trying to boost his own ego before the Area Authorities.  It becomes less about the individual being baptized and more about us - "look what I did. Look what I achieved through my goals."  When this happens, we start to see things like baseball baptisms, etc. 

[Rain]

On 1/18/2022 at 10:02 AM, bluebell said:

I so dislike the focus on goals in the church.  I am not goal oriented at all.  In fact, one of the best ways for me not to do something is to set a goal that I will.  Goals stress me out and I end up giving up so that I don't have to live under that anxiety of it hanging over my head all the time.

And we aren't even good at setting goals.  My husband laments at the goals that each ward has to set for how many people they are going to baptize for the year. It drives him crazy.  The first rule of goal setting is never set a goal that you can't control the outcome of but the church is in love with asking people to set those kinds of goals. And then people feel worthless and like failures when they can't meet them, even though it was never in their power to do so in the first place!  

We really do need a better way to show love and support the type B people among us.  Forcing them to try to be type A's doesn't work.

My husband gives this a "big amen".

I don't know where we heard it, but we call those types of goals "wishes".

When he was ward mission leader he tried to build a ward mission plan around what each organization would do. He explained the idea of setting goals for yourself and not others and asked them to pray as presidencies for what they, themselves, do. Things like have a "missionary moment" once a week at the beginning of class, plan 2 activities this year that people can feel comfortable inviting non members too, the presidency will read The Power of Everyday Missionaries" etc.

Several of the organization Presidencies got excited and then set goals for... other people.

[theplains]

On 1/17/2022 at 11:59 AM, Fether said:

I’ve heard this idea that people always feel like they are not doing enough, and those comments sometime go as far as to say that the church makes people feel like they aren’t doing enough.

There is a lot a person must do before Christ's grace is sufficient.

1] Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye
shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then
is his grace sufficient for you" - Moroni 10:32)

2] Couple this with 2 Nephi 25:23 - for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

If you take [1] to heart, grace depends on you.  For [2], salvation depends on your deeds.  It relies
on what you can do instead of what you must do.

[bluebell]

10 minutes ago, theplains said:

There is a lot a person must do before Christ's grace is sufficient.

1] Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye
shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then
is his grace sufficient for you" - Moroni 10:32)

2] Couple this with 2 Nephi 25:23 - for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

If you take [1] to heart, grace depends on you.  For [2], salvation depends on your deeds.  It relies
on what you can do instead of what you must do.

I don't interpret these verses the way that you are interpreting them here.

What I hear Moroni saying is that if we have faith in Christ (come unto Him) and if we repent of our sins and desire to live His commandments (deny ourselves of all ungodliness) then God's grace is active in our lives.

And I interpret Nephi saying the same thing.  By grace we are saved after all we can do, and all we can do is to have faith in Christ, repent, and keep trying to be like Him until the end.

[Rain]

On 1/18/2022 at 10:51 AM, Duncan said:

something that drives me bananas is Elder Wilford Andersen of the Seventy came to our Stake several times, with the Area 70 in tow, and basically said what you were saying yet after he left the Area Seventy had each Bishop, EQ Pres. etc make goals and plans.I said in a meeting am I the only one who remembers Elder Andersen coming here? like 2 weeks ago?! Are you people crazy? It seems a waste of time to attend these meetings and  learn nothing from them because it's back to what we were doing before!

This kind of thing drove my son crazy.  They would hear from church leaders (apostles etc) the most effective ways with working with people) and the very next zone conference etc those planning the zone conference would continue to teach what was always done.

[sunstoned]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

I agree that goals can be a good thing.   Making baptismal goals however can easily skew our perspective and purpose in such matters.  It can easily become more about us and boosting our own egos or trying to please our Stake President - who himself may be trying to boost his own ego before the Area Authorities.  It becomes less about the individual being baptized and more about us - "look what I did. Look what I achieved through my goals."  When this happens, we start to see things like baseball baptisms, etc. 

I agree.  This is what really turned me off of leadership while I was on my mission.  It was all about the numbers.  Number of hours tracking, number of discussions, number of baptisms.  My MP was so focused on quantifiable results that the ends started to justify the means.  We were taught slick sales tactics in zone conference, and those whole had the highest numbers would get a "master builder" medal (more like a large coin), which was delivered in zone conference. 

When it all comes down numbers, then it is easy to game the system, and many missionaries did just that.  The ones where good at it got promoted.