Never doing enough

[Fether]

I’ve heard this idea that people always feel like they are not doing enough, and those comments sometime go as far as to say that the church makes people feel like they aren’t doing enough. I’ve heard this from family members and friends. Some active and some are former members.

This is an idea I have heard throughout my life, yet is completely alien to me. I hope not the diminish the feelings of those that feel this way, I only want to understand why some feel this and others don’t.

I’ll share some experiences I have had growing up and how I reacted to them.

Pornography:

as most young men, I made viewing pornography a bit of a habit. I knew it was wrong and wanted to stop. I spoke to the bishop and he restricted my ability to participate in the sacrament. There was even a time I sat in sacrament meeting and had to pass on the sacrament tray without partaking to a friend of mine next to me, who clearly noticed. Immediately after my entire family went up and bore their testimony on the power of repentance, all of them were crying… it was insanely awkward for me, but something I laugh about today.

Despite all this, I never once felt shame. There were obvious feelings of guilt, but I never once believed myself to be worthless. Nor do I remember belittling myself.

In fact, from an early age, I remember deliberately developing a habit of telling myself “what I did was wrong, but it isnt who I am not who I have to be.” That phrase would give me energy to repent and move forward as happy and hopeful as ever. I would then redouble my efforts to change. And one day I finally overcame it all.

I give thanks to the church and it’s leaders for instilling this resilience in me. The countless messages of “you are not your sin”, “through Christ, you can overcome whatever sin you face”, and “God loves you despite the sins you have”. It was that messaging that helped me avoid the toxic feelings of shame.

HOWEVER, as many know, this isn’t the same with everyone. One of my closest friends growing up was about my age, same ward, same lifestyle, and I would argue was a closer follower of Christ than I was, had a VERY different experience. They went through similar struggles with pornography, but instead of feeling hope, they felt shame. They buried that feeling deep. One day, that shame, coupled with other problems, broke their testimony and they had their names removed from the church.

Common denominators between us:

- deeply active in church

- Watched all sessions of general conference every 6 months

- read scriptures regularly

- had faith this was the true church

Family:

My mom often says “no matter how hard you try, you are going to screw your kid up somehow”. What she really means by that is we are imperfect beings and there is no point in expecting our abilities as parents to produce this picture perfect family we dream about. But that shouldn’t stop us from trying.

I have heard countless stories of parents feeling like failures because they aren’t doing daily scripture study, family temple trips, FHE, and countless other things we are expected to do as parents. 

I have never felt this, not experienced anything like this. It’s not because I'm a perfect or I don’t care about growing as a parent. My wife and I are constantly expanding our home curriculum in how we treat our kids, raise them, teach them, and love them. We read books on this too (we just finished Joe DeSena’s 10 rules of resilience for raising families and it was phenomenal! So many things we are planning on adding).

Gospel Living:

This is probably the most common one I hear. People blame the church for shaming them into not doing enough. Not paying enough tithing, not reading enough scripture, not going to the temple enough, not doing family history, not knowing enough information to share in gospel doctrine class, not having a particular calling… on and on.

Once again, I have felt the need to grow on these areas, but never shame. I’m fact, I get immense energy when someone points out that my knowledge of the scriptures may not be where it ought to be. I get excited when a church leader says “you need to work more on your prayers”. This stuff gets me excited because it is an opportunity to enrich my life in a better way. My list of things to accomplish and worn on is insanely high right now… but that doesn’t bother me one bit. I’m excited to master the one I am working on, and then move on to the other. And more often than not, I am working on many at the same time and I am excited to get to a point I. Life where I excel in that particular topic so I can start putting energy on another.

HOWEVER, I know this isn’t the norm. I knew a wonderful mother in my ward while growing who physically could not be at church because she would feel immense shame a guilt for not doing enough. She left the church to escape that feeling.

MAIN QUESTIONS:

I am completely oblivious to the feeling of shame and chronic depression. The exact opposite is true. As I said earlier, I get energized when I feel a little fire under me. I get excited when I envision myself as someone who has mastered a particular principle.

I don’t know what it is like to feel those negative feeling so often, but I do not want to add to struggles others face.

* What is the difference between people like me and those that are prone to harmful self talk and shaming?

  - Chemical imbalances in the brain?

  - Our (mis)interpretation of the messages?

  - Ways we are raised by parents?

  - Lack if scripture study?

* How do we teach correct principles without triggering others who are prone to shameful thinking?

 

[strappinglad]

It is a common problem for some to try to live all the requirements of the Church, All The Time. It is exhausting. I have a couple of family members who have left . They both have that " perfectionist gene " and never felt good enough. In the past, GC talks focused on doing more, lengthening strides, quickening pace etc. Lately I have sensed the brethren have seen the problem and spend more time telling us to care for ourselves, don't run faster than we are able etc.

[bsjkki]

15 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

It is a common problem for some to try to live all the requirements of the Church, All The Time. It is exhausting. I have a couple of family members who have left . They both have that " perfectionist gene " and never felt good enough. In the past, GC talks focused on doing more, lengthening strides, quickening pace etc. Lately I have sensed the brethren have seen the problem and spend more time telling us to care for ourselves, don't run faster than we are able etc.

Much is personality. I personally have struggled with stake conferences that have felt like one giant lecture. I’m a people pleaser and generally obedient person who tries to do what I should. 
 

Needless to say, that is not possible. So now I am working on boundaries which means my internal dialogue is more like, ‘I will not feel guilty or mad for being asked to do more than I can right now. I just won’t do it.’ I will say no internally or externally depending on the situation. 

[bsjkki]

1 hour ago, Fether said:

I’ve heard this idea that people always feel like they are not doing enough, and those comments sometime go as far as to say that the church makes people feel like they aren’t doing enough. I’ve heard this from family members and friends. Some active and some are former members.

This is an idea I have heard throughout my life, yet is completely alien to me. I hope not the diminish the feelings of those that feel this way, I only want to understand why some feel this and others don’t.

I’ll share some experiences I have had growing up and how I reacted to them.

Pornography:

as most young men, I made viewing pornography a bit of a habit. I knew it was wrong and wanted to stop. I spoke to the bishop and he restricted my ability to participate in the sacrament. There was even a time I sat in sacrament meeting and had to pass on the sacrament tray without partaking to a friend of mine next to me, who clearly noticed. Immediately after my entire family went up and bore their testimony on the power of repentance, all of them were crying… it was insanely awkward for me, but something I laugh about today.

Despite all this, I never once felt shame. There were obvious feelings of guilt, but I never once believed myself to be worthless. Nor do I remember belittling myself.

In fact, from an early age, I remember deliberately developing a habit of telling myself “what I did was wrong, but it isnt who I am not who I have to be.” That phrase would give me energy to repent and move forward as happy and hopeful as ever. I would then redouble my efforts to change. And one day I finally overcame it all.

I give thanks to the church and it’s leaders for instilling this resilience in me. The countless messages of “you are not your sin”, “through Christ, you can overcome whatever sin you face”, and “God loves you despite the sins you have”. It was that messaging that helped me avoid the toxic feelings of shame.

HOWEVER, as many know, this isn’t the same with everyone. One of my closest friends growing up was about my age, same ward, same lifestyle, and I would argue was a closer follower of Christ than I was, had a VERY different experience. They went through similar struggles with pornography, but instead of feeling hope, they felt shame. They buried that feeling deep. One day, that shame, coupled with other problems, broke their testimony and they had their names removed from the church.

Common denominators between us:

- deeply active in church

- Watched all sessions of general conference every 6 months

- read scriptures regularly

- had faith this was the true church

Family:

My mom often says “no matter how hard you try, you are going to screw your kid up somehow”. What she really means by that is we are imperfect beings and there is no point in expecting our abilities as parents to produce this picture perfect family we dream about. But that shouldn’t stop us from trying.

I have heard countless stories of parents feeling like failures because they aren’t doing daily scripture study, family temple trips, FHE, and countless other things we are expected to do as parents. 

I have never felt this, not experienced anything like this. It’s not because I'm a perfect or I don’t care about growing as a parent. My wife and I are constantly expanding our home curriculum in how we treat our kids, raise them, teach them, and love them. We read books on this too (we just finished Joe DeSena’s 10 rules of resilience for raising families and it was phenomenal! So many things we are planning on adding).

Gospel Living:

This is probably the most common one I hear. People blame the church for shaming them into not doing enough. Not paying enough tithing, not reading enough scripture, not going to the temple enough, not doing family history, not knowing enough information to share in gospel doctrine class, not having a particular calling… on and on.

Once again, I have felt the need to grow on these areas, but never shame. I’m fact, I get immense energy when someone points out that my knowledge of the scriptures may not be where it ought to be. I get excited when a church leader says “you need to work more on your prayers”. This stuff gets me excited because it is an opportunity to enrich my life in a better way. My list of things to accomplish and worn on is insanely high right now… but that doesn’t bother me one bit. I’m excited to master the one I am working on, and then move on to the other. And more often than not, I am working on many at the same time and I am excited to get to a point I. Life where I excel in that particular topic so I can start putting energy on another.

HOWEVER, I know this isn’t the norm. I knew a wonderful mother in my ward while growing who physically could not be at church because she would feel immense shame a guilt for not doing enough. She left the church to escape that feeling.

MAIN QUESTIONS:

I am completely oblivious to the feeling of shame and chronic depression. The exact opposite is true. As I said earlier, I get energized when I feel a little fire under me. I get excited when I envision myself as someone who has mastered a particular principle.

I don’t know what it is like to feel those negative feeling so often, but I do not want to add to struggles others face.

* What is the difference between people like me and those that are prone to harmful self talk and shaming?

  - Chemical imbalances in the brain?

  - Our (mis)interpretation of the messages?

  - Ways we are raised by parents?

  - Lack if scripture study?

* How do we teach correct principles without triggering others who are prone to shameful thinking?

 

Teach gospel principles and let people govern themselves. 

I’ve noticed there are people who take everything in and those who filter everything out. 

With kids, check back with me when they are grown. I had no idea how my kids internalized things. 

 

[Fether]

33 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

They both have that " perfectionist gene " and never felt good enough

Do you think the perfectionist view can be fixed?

 

[katherine the great]

2 hours ago, Fether said:

What is the difference between people like me and those that are prone to harmful self talk and shaming?

I’m on the “nature” rather than “nurture” team. There’s certainly no single gene that determines our personalities But I think genes shape our personalities and our personalities largely determine our general feelings of self-esteem. You are extremely fortunate that you don’t fall into the trap of feeling not good enough. So many people naturally just do and I don’t think it’s their fault. 

[bluebell]

I'm with Katherine and bsj, I think that personality determines a lot. 

Family I think also has a big impact on how someone internalizes gospel messages.  If you are taught a strict interpretation of worth, or righteousness, or sin, for example, then that will likely cause you to interpret gospel messages in ways that someone who wasn't taught such a strict view might not.

[JustAnAustralian]

Scrupulosity is a real issue for some people that I see being written about more and more. 
I'll leave it to more experienced people to go into depth about it.

[The Nehor]

I think the moment I most realized what unrealistic expectations can do was on my mission. We had zone goals we made and had to meet and each conference the Zone Leader would stand up and report on how they did. We uniformly failed. Like every zone every time. Then one time it happened. My zone met all the goals and passed them to a significant degree. We felt great. The Zone Leader got up and reported out success and despite the lack of cheering (church meeting after all) everyone was elated and felt good. There were smiles and all was good. Then the Zone Leader announced that we were going to increase the numbers by 50% over the goals we had last time and that “through our faith” we would achieve them. The spirit of elation immediately died except for a few people. The hardcore optimists loved it. Everyone else knew that lightning was unlikely to strike again. I never paid attention to church goals again on my mission or the ward or the stake level and just took it as chest beating that appealed to some members who could ignore it when they were missed but got hyped about them.

There is a danger in our teaching. Brigham Young talked about taking people as they are. He said in trying to offer correction you can reduce one person to tears in minutes and another you can talk to them for hours and they still do not know what you are talking about.

In the chaos of the grace vs works context my best counsel to myself has been to focus on the one I don’t like at the moment. If I am beating myself down for my limitations and failures focus on grace. If I am feeling I am doing a good job at living the gospel (I actually miss those naive days now) I should focus on works. I find that myself and a lot of the people I have known and counseled with in the church pick their course the other way. The person who is doing virtually nothing in the gospel focuses on grace while the person who is being driven mad trying to (as Elder Bednar said) keep all their plates spinning tends to focus on actions they cannot do.

Also if you find that God has become a ravenous monster that just demands more and more recognize you are probably worshipping something more like Baal or Molech and smash the idol. If you know how to do that and make it stay smashed let me know. I haven’t figured it out yet.

[The Nehor]

10 hours ago, Fether said:

Family:

My mom often says “no matter how hard you try, you are going to screw your kid up somehow”. What she really means by that is we are imperfect beings and there is no point in expecting our abilities as parents to produce this picture perfect family we dream about. But that shouldn’t stop us from trying.

I heard a similar sentiment:

”Even if you do everything right something you do is going to screw up your kid.”

A lot of the things that change the course of children are inadvertent and almost completely random. One of the curses of being able to remember a lot of my childhood back to 2 and 3 years old is I think I can trace where some of my flaws came from. They weren’t my fault or my parent’s fault. It was just weird experiences. Of course I could also be wrong and just think that is where they came from and I do deserve them all or it was something even more beyond my control than I can imagine.

In any case hug your kids. I hear that can prevent a lot of problems. Maybe it causes them too though……..I have no idea.

[bsjkki]

My sister and I often joke the manuals are all written by type A people. 
 

Write it down, set this goal, do it this way and you can be as awesome as we are. (This is also a favorite theme of RS meetings on ‘organization’ and house cleaning.) 

Some if us just don’t roll this way. 
 

@The Nehor

Thanks for that story. My son describes his mission as 2 years of never feeling good enough. Came home broken. 
 

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, bsjkki said:

My sister and I often joke the manuals are all written by type A people. 
 

Write it down, set this goal, do it this way and you can be as awesome as we are. (This is also a favorite theme of RS meetings on ‘organization’ and house cleaning.) 

Some if us just don’t roll this way. 
 

@The Nehor

Thanks for that story. My son describes his mission as 2 years of never feeling good enough. Came home broken. 
 

I fortunately didn’t get broken. Cynical definitely.

My dad told me a story from when he was on the Stake High Council. After several years of low missionary success the ward he was watching over had an unprecedented surge in baptisms including several families with strong retention and everything going great. The Stake President asked him to report on what the ward was doing so others could try to duplicate the success. He explained that nothing had really changed and they were just doing their callings like they had been for years and things came together. He said everyone just stared at him as if he were blaspheming except a few (including the stake president) who were trying to hold back a grin or a chuckle.

[Calm]

12 hours ago, Fether said:

What is the difference between people like me and those that are prone to harmful self talk and shaming?

  - Chemical imbalances in the brain?

  - Our (mis)interpretation of the messages?

  - Ways we are raised by parents?

I would say these three, though phrase it as “chemical and physical differences in brain and body”.  It is not an imbalance if one is more introverted or more self focused nor is it an imbalance to be less self aware and more externally focused; it is just different and each may work great in some situations and not so good in others…imbalances are when these different attributes become dysfunctional, but whether the imbalances happen first or are the result of repetitive dysfunctional behaviour, external and/or internal…not sure we can usually determine.

Reading scriptures may become a vehicle for shame or for self support as can not reading scriptures, I think it begins with how one see’s scriptures’ purpose in one’s life that determines if not reading them is detrimental or actually better for a person at that time of their life.

And it is not only raised by parents but interactions with siblings, extended family, friends and others.  One of my grandmothers was very strong in messaging (it was her calling in life to set us straight as far as I can tell, I don’t ever remember being comforted by her besides a sense of her strength and presence and the two compliments I remember getting from her was telling me I should study TV repair to make a lot of money when she finally noticed  in college I was interested in physics and passing on many of her belongings to me to care for when she downsized…though that may have been simply me being there and not others, but I think she recognized I was a good worker by then and took care of things).  Talking to my cousins after she died and siblings all my life we were all deeply impacted by her.  For example, her using our cousins as examples we should be following while not praising us to ourselves (she pushed my family to be more social and my cousins to get better grades as we were good students and they were good in sports and clubs, student government, quite popular) not only made all of us feel like never good enough in her eyes—which made it harder to resist other negative messages—but it created a disinterest in extended family, we were not interested in being friends with cousins who were used to tell us we were not good enough.  None of us put any real effort into meeting family outside the sibling and their kids circle even though there are tons of family organizations.  Knowing how important extended family was to her, she probably is kicking herself now that she went that route.

I got many more “you are only a girl” messages from school and general environment than at home or church.  Though what roles were appropriate was heavy from both, the way my parents taught our faith did not lead me to see church roles as the only ones, just very important ones and my family never limited me to only those roles technically (because of health and emphasis on housework coming before play growing up and pretty much lack of interest in anything I was doing at school, it amounted in the end to the same as limiting though, but my sisters managed to push a lot of social limits in some ways…worse than me in other ways though…how influences and personality all mix up in the end is oh, so very complicated).

Edited January 18, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

10 hours ago, Fether said:

Do you think the perfectionist view can be fixed?

 

Adapted some, dumped completely…no.  Having been taught to be both a realist (Dad) and perfectionist (Mom) and both very practical in their own way has made for an interesting mix.

Edited January 18, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Maybe it causes them too though……..I have no idea.

Depends on the timing and reasoning.  Father in law had a cold mother and no father growing up and learned how to love from a textbook.  His hugging wasn’t relaxed or spontaneous. He apparently used it to stop his kids rebelling rather than letting them express their pain like he would respond to his wife’s anger with “I love you”. He was a trained psychologist, a Rogerian and it baffled me he seemed to be so clueless at reading the feelings of his own family. 
 

Otoh, I have had some great hugs that were just what I needed from family and friends.

[Calm]

52 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

My son describes his mission as 2 years of never feeling good enough.

My son says he went out expecting his mission President to be a father figure and instead got another high school principal. Thankfully his second set  was more like a sweet grandfather and grandmother.

One of my brothers never talked about his experiences. 
 

I think the line “the best two years of your life” is evil.

Edited January 18, 2022 by Calm

[The Nehor]

8 hours ago, Calm said:

My son says he went out expecting his mission President to be a father figure and instead got another high school principal. Thankfully his second set  was more like a sweet grandfather and grandmother.

One of my brothers never talked about his experiences. 
 

I think the line “the best two years of your life” is evil.

When I was out the line was “best two years for your life”. Not sure it was accurate for all but was more realistic.

We also had a weird unexpected visit. Elder Scott called our Mission President out of nowhere and asked if he could come by and teach the whole mission (and the missionaries in the Preston MTC) for four hours. The Mission President assented. Later he got a call from the Area President asking how in the world the President pulled an apostle stopping by on his vacation.

Elder Scott said that the concept of never rising higher than you are on your mission is very flawed and pessimistic. He stated that often it set a trajectory. Then he talked about how to sanctify yourself so your light grows brighter and brighter until the perfect day. It was probably the most direct and unfiltered meeting I have ever been in with an apostle.

[Duncan]

8 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

When I was out the line was “best two years for your life”. Not sure it was accurate for all but was more realistic.

We also had a weird unexpected visit. Elder Scott called our Mission President out of nowhere and asked if he could come by and teach the whole mission (and the missionaries in the Preston MTC) for four hours. The Mission President assented. Later he got a call from the Area President asking how in the world the President pulled an apostle stopping by on his vacation.

Elder Scott said that the concept of never rising higher than you are on your mission is very flawed and pessimistic. He stated that often it set a trajectory. Then he talked about how to sanctify yourself so your light grows brighter and brighter until the perfect day. It was probably the most direct and unfiltered meeting I have ever been in with an apostle.

I think it was President Henry D. Moyle who said that your mission is the mold in which to build your life, you don't fly higher than you do on your mission. Which I agree with Elder Scott isn't true

[The Nehor]

12 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I think it was President Henry D. Moyle who said that your mission is the mold in which to build your life, you don't fly higher than you do on your mission. Which I agree with Elder Scott isn't true

Telling someone they peaked on their mission leads either to despair or complacency depending on how high they think (rightly or wrongly) they have flown.

[bluebell]

12 hours ago, bsjkki said:

My sister and I often joke the manuals are all written by type A people. 
 

Write it down, set this goal, do it this way and you can be as awesome as we are. (This is also a favorite theme of RS meetings on ‘organization’ and house cleaning.) 

Some if us just don’t roll this way. 
 

@The Nehor

Thanks for that story. My son describes his mission as 2 years of never feeling good enough. Came home broken. 
 

I so dislike the focus on goals in the church.  I am not goal oriented at all.  In fact, one of the best ways for me not to do something is to set a goal that I will.  Goals stress me out and I end up giving up so that I don't have to live under that anxiety of it hanging over my head all the time.

And we aren't even good at setting goals.  My husband laments at the goals that each ward has to set for how many people they are going to baptize for the year. It drives him crazy.  The first rule of goal setting is never set a goal that you can't control the outcome of but the church is in love with asking people to set those kinds of goals. And then people feel worthless and like failures when they can't meet them, even though it was never in their power to do so in the first place!  

We really do need a better way to show love and support the type B people among us.  Forcing them to try to be type A's doesn't work.

[The Nehor]

6 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I so dislike the focus on goals in the church.  I am not goal oriented at all.  In fact, one of the best ways for me not to do something is to set a goal that I will.  Goals stress me out and I end up giving up so that I don't have to live under that anxiety of it hanging over my head all the time.

And we aren't even good at setting goals.  My husband laments at the goals that each ward has to set for how many people they are going to baptize for the year. It drives him crazy.  The first rule of goal setting is never set a goal that you can't control the outcome of but the church is in love with asking people to set those kinds of goals. And then people feel worthless and like failures when they can't meet them, even though it was never in their power to do so in the first place!  

We really do need a better way to show love and support the type B people among us.  Forcing them to try to be type A's doesn't work.

Goals are just disappointments with a countdown clock built in.

[Fether]

6 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I so dislike the focus on goals in the church.  I am not goal oriented at all.  In fact, one of the best ways for me not to do something is to set a goal that I will.  Goals stress me out and I end up giving up so that I don't have to live under that anxiety of it hanging over my head all the time.

And we aren't even good at setting goals.  My husband laments at the goals that each ward has to set for how many people they are going to baptize for the year. It drives him crazy.  The first rule of goal setting is never set a goal that you can't control the outcome of but the church is in love with asking people to set those kinds of goals. And then people feel worthless and like failures when they can't meet them, even though it was never in their power to do so in the first place!  

We really do need a better way to show love and support the type B people among us.  Forcing them to try to be type A's doesn't work.

For me, I have found that if I have a vision for the type of person I want to be, and that vision excites me, goals come naturally. I think skipping straight to “you need to set goals” is harmful and pointless when the people don’t even know what they believe and have an idea of what kind of person they want to be.

Imposed goals or goals that are watched over by others are exhausting and frustrating if not preceded by an exciting personal vision. 

Where there is no vision, the people perish - Proverbs 29:18

[Duncan]

44 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I so dislike the focus on goals in the church.  I am not goal oriented at all.  In fact, one of the best ways for me not to do something is to set a goal that I will.  Goals stress me out and I end up giving up so that I don't have to live under that anxiety of it hanging over my head all the time.

And we aren't even good at setting goals.  My husband laments at the goals that each ward has to set for how many people they are going to baptize for the year. It drives him crazy.  The first rule of goal setting is never set a goal that you can't control the outcome of but the church is in love with asking people to set those kinds of goals. And then people feel worthless and like failures when they can't meet them, even though it was never in their power to do so in the first place!  

We really do need a better way to show love and support the type B people among us.  Forcing them to try to be type A's doesn't work.

something that drives me bananas is Elder Wilford Andersen of the Seventy came to our Stake several times, with the Area 70 in tow, and basically said what you were saying yet after he left the Area Seventy had each Bishop, EQ Pres. etc make goals and plans.I said in a meeting am I the only one who remembers Elder Andersen coming here? like 2 weeks ago?! Are you people crazy? It seems a waste of time to attend these meetings and  learn nothing from them because it's back to what we were doing before!

[bsjkki]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Goals are just disappointments with a countdown clock built in.

Is this an original statement? Screenshoting and saving.  Do I quote ‘The Nehor’ in RS and Sunday School? 

Edited January 18, 2022 by bsjkki

[bluebell]

37 minutes ago, Duncan said:

something that drives me bananas is Elder Wilford Andersen of the Seventy came to our Stake several times, with the Area 70 in tow, and basically said what you were saying yet after he left the Area Seventy had each Bishop, EQ Pres. etc make goals and plans.I said in a meeting am I the only one who remembers Elder Andersen coming here? like 2 weeks ago?! Are you people crazy? It seems a waste of time to attend these meetings and  learn nothing from them because it's back to what we were doing before!

So true!