bluebell Posted January 26, 2022 Posted January 26, 2022 4 hours ago, theplains said: I would agree with you that grace is active in your life. But Moroni 10:32 mentions very specific conditions that must be satisfied by you before His grace is sufficient for you. Yes, and they have been satisfied. As I explain.
sunstoned Posted January 26, 2022 Posted January 26, 2022 6 hours ago, california boy said: My mission was set up very similar. As the zone leader, I felt like we should be concentrating more on helping members introducing the gospel to their friends. I asked my mission president if we could concentrate more on that rather than the statistics. He said no. One of the statistics was to place 5 BoM's a week. So that week I placed 50. During our next meeting, I told him if he only wanted statistics, I could give him the best statistics in the mission. If he wanted baptisms, he should let me try a different approach. Two months later, the entire mission adapted the program that I started because the results were in fact more baptisms. I'm glad this ended well for you. I don't know where this numbers mentality comes from. All the great missionary success stories in the scriptures (BoM, NT, D&C) are always big on using the Spirit. I doubt Alma or Paul were too concerned about weekly report totals. 3
sunstoned Posted January 26, 2022 Posted January 26, 2022 7 hours ago, Bob Crockett said: The first president was a union leader and not a sales person. Good to know. I loved president Welling. Later I worked with his son at the Utah State Prison.
rongo Posted January 26, 2022 Posted January 26, 2022 (edited) 8 hours ago, sunstoned said: I'm glad this ended well for you. I don't know where this numbers mentality comes from. All the great missionary success stories in the scriptures (BoM, NT, D&C) are always big on using the Spirit. I doubt Alma or Paul were too concerned about weekly report totals. I've ruffled feathers before by pointing out that some of the best missionaries of all time had terrible stats (Noah, Mormon, Moroni, etc.). It was their diligence, not their numbers. The feathers were ruffled because the settings were meetings to launch new stat-driven initiatives (gimmicks). This observation wasn't welcome in this setting. Edited January 26, 2022 by rongo 2
JLHPROF Posted January 26, 2022 Posted January 26, 2022 1 hour ago, rongo said: I've ruffled feathers before by pointing out that some of the best missionaries of all time had terrible stats (Noah, Mormon, Moroni, etc.). It was their diligence, not their numbers. The feathers were ruffled because the settings were meetings to launch new stat-driven initiatives (gimmicks). This observation wasn't welcome in this setting. There's something inherently "non-gospel" about stressing stats, conversion numbers, membership growth. It's a very corporate approach. Like too many business meetings I've sat through. 1
The Nehor Posted January 26, 2022 Posted January 26, 2022 2 hours ago, rongo said: I've ruffled feathers before by pointing out that some of the best missionaries of all time had terrible stats (Noah, Mormon, Moroni, etc.). It was their diligence, not their numbers. The feathers were ruffled because the settings were meetings to launch new stat-driven initiatives (gimmicks). This observation wasn't welcome in this setting. Yeah, I did that with Isaiah. I remember I taught Gospel Doctrine and introduced Isaiah’s mission call as “possibly the most depressing mission call ever issued”. I get why Mission Presidents in particular want numbers. They are dealing with mostly 18 to 23 year olds. There is a concern that if they don’t get some accountability on how they are spending their time then what they are doing is a big question mark. The answer is too often trouble. I have much less sympathy at the ward and stake level. I mean, yeah, a lot of older adults don’t do what they are supposed to but they are also much more jaded about goals and stats in general so not sure it does anything. 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: There's something inherently "non-gospel" about stressing stats, conversion numbers, membership growth. It's a very corporate approach. Like too many business meetings I've sat through. True, but there is a time for stats: 24 And it came to pass that in this same year there was exceedingly great prosperity in the church, insomuch that there were thousands who did join themselves unto the church and were baptized unto repentance. 25 And so great was the prosperity of the church, and so many the blessings which were poured out upon the people, that even the high priests and the teachers were themselves astonished beyond measure. 26 And it came to pass that the work of the Lord did prosper unto the baptizing and uniting to the church of God, many souls, yea, even tens of thousands. When discussing stats the best reminder I heard from a leader is that these aren’t a nice output that suggests the the machine is running well and revenues are up and shareholders will be pleased. They represent souls that are hopefully closer to Christ. On the micro level, particularly the ward level, I don’t think baptismal goals and temple goals make sense. You are close enough to have the objective to help brother and sister X get to the temple and see Y who the missionaries are teaching get baptized and fellowshipped. Then judge success primarily by how well you facilitated and not by whether they used their agency to go one way or the other. 2
rongo Posted January 26, 2022 Posted January 26, 2022 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: I get why Mission Presidents in particular want numbers. They are dealing with mostly 18 to 23 year olds. There is a concern that if they don’t get some accountability on how they are spending their time then what they are doing is a big question mark. The answer is too often trouble. That's part of it: clear, easy to recognize numerical goals to keep the young adults on track. Another part of it is pressure from Salt Lake. I think the biggest factor of all, though, is personal pride. 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: True, but there is a time for stats: When discussing stats the best reminder I heard from a leader is that these aren’t a nice output that suggests the the machine is running well and revenues are up and shareholders will be pleased. They represent souls that are hopefully closer to Christ. On the micro level, particularly the ward level, I don’t think baptismal goals and temple goals make sense. You are close enough to have the objective to help brother and sister X get to the temple and see Y who the missionaries are teaching get baptized and fellowshipped. Then judge success primarily by how well you facilitated and not by whether they used their agency to go one way or the other. Stats are necessary, to an extent, and the truisms do have truth in them, to an extent (if you don't set number goals, then how will you know when you get there/don't get there? Statistics represent people, not numbers, etc.). I think just as often as these truisms are uttered, leaders often lose sight of the spirit of them and focus on the numbers. It's the path of least resistance (easiest course). What was normal for baptisms/lessons taught, etc. in England when you were there? How is the receptiveness from immigrants compared to native Brits (i.e., did missionaries teach immigrants more than natives due to receptiveness)? I think the hard European missions by their nature preclude asinine hyperfocus on numbers, because the South American results aren't physically or culturally possible, no matter how worthy, dedicated, and obedient missionaries are. I think that's why the focus on numbers stories come out of North , Central, and South America.
sunstoned Posted January 27, 2022 Posted January 27, 2022 10 hours ago, JLHPROF said: There's something inherently "non-gospel" about stressing stats, conversion numbers, membership growth. It's a very corporate approach. Like too many business meetings I've sat through. I think it might be a reflection of the leaders backgrounds, which tend to be in business or law. 1
bsjkki Posted January 30, 2022 Posted January 30, 2022 5th Sunday lesson on goals today. We will see how this goes. 1
The Nehor Posted January 30, 2022 Posted January 30, 2022 On 1/26/2022 at 1:08 PM, rongo said: What was normal for baptisms/lessons taught, etc. in England when you were there? How is the receptiveness from immigrants compared to native Brits (i.e., did missionaries teach immigrants more than natives due to receptiveness)? I think the hard European missions by their nature preclude asinine hyperfocus on numbers, because the South American results aren't physically or culturally possible, no matter how worthy, dedicated, and obedient missionaries are. I think that's why the focus on numbers stories come out of North , Central, and South America. We were the highest baptizing mission in the Europe North area for almost all of my entire time there. Edinburgh passed at the end. Most of the people I taught were natives. Our numbers were on lessons taught. Door to door was much less successful in England (and Wales) than in the USA in my experience going out with missionaries in the US shortly before and after my mission. For a while the lessons taught stat was based on how many people you taught so if you taught a family you got a lot more done. The go-to fix was if you were short go out the evening before and find the kids around our age smoking near a street light or whatever and talk and joke about the differences between America and the UK and teach a mini-lesson. Could easily get 6-8 lessons taught. There was a conference where an apostle advised the area missionaries to remember that “for every door you knock on in Copenhagen someone is getting baptized in Brazil”. My younger brother had just been called to a mission in Brazil and my mom was sending each of us copies of the letters the other sent home. In his first month in the field he beat my baptismal total for the year and a half I had been out. We probably averaged 3-4 baptisms per missionary for their whole mission would be my guess. If I remember right the hardest nation in out area was France where the average was less than one per missionary. My mission had also suffered from a big baptismal push under some previous mission presidents. As far as I know they never got “baseball baptisms” bad but one member summed it up thusly: “They baptized a lot of people but with all due respect they were a load of nutters!” 1
theplains Posted February 1, 2022 Posted February 1, 2022 On 1/25/2022 at 6:25 PM, JLHPROF said: Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God. Moroni 10:32 Sounds a lot like: Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. Colossians 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Unlike the Book of Mormon, I don't have to satisfy the list of IF conditions before Christ's grace is sufficient for me.
JLHPROF Posted February 1, 2022 Posted February 1, 2022 1 hour ago, theplains said: Unlike the Book of Mormon, I don't have to satisfy the list of IF conditions before Christ's grace is sufficient for me. Sorry, your argument doesn't hold water. Even in the Bible grace often has conditions attached. James 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. 7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. 9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. 10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up. So does this require humility and a lack of pride before grace is granted? Is grace withheld if the condition of humility isn't met? Do we have to draw near to God before he will draw near to us? Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: Acts 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. So we need holiness to see the Lord. We need to repent and pray for God to forgive. There's those conditions again. 1
bluebell Posted February 1, 2022 Posted February 1, 2022 10 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: Sorry, your argument doesn't hold water. Even in the Bible grace often has conditions attached. James 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. 7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. 9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. 10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up. So does this require humility and a lack of pride before grace is granted? Is grace withheld if the condition of humility isn't met? Do we have to draw near to God before he will draw near to us? Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: Acts 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. So we need holiness to see the Lord. We need to repent and pray for God to forgive. There's those conditions again. If there are no conditions on Christ's grace then all who have ever lived, regardless of their works, would be saved. But the bible teaches that that is not so, so we know that conditions exist. I do not understand Christians who believe that faith without works leads to eternal life, contrary to what the bible teaches. 4
theplains Posted February 8, 2022 Posted February 8, 2022 On 2/1/2022 at 1:34 PM, JLHPROF said: So does this require humility and a lack of pride before grace is granted? Is grace withheld if the condition of humility isn't met? Do we have to draw near to God before he will draw near to us? "... but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." God loved us before we loved him. I believe Christ's grace is sufficient for us before anything we can or must do, not after doing all those things mentioned by Moroni.
bluebell Posted February 8, 2022 Posted February 8, 2022 31 minutes ago, theplains said: I believe Christ's grace is sufficient for us before anything we can or must do, not after doing all those things mentioned by Moroni. So you believe that Christ's grace saves people before they accept Him or have faith in Him? And you believe once saved, always saved, right?
JLHPROF Posted February 8, 2022 Posted February 8, 2022 1 hour ago, theplains said: "... but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." God loved us before we loved him. I believe Christ's grace is sufficient for us before anything we can or must do, not after doing all those things mentioned by Moroni. You may believe that, but it ignores much of what the Bible says.
theplains Posted February 24, 2022 Posted February 24, 2022 On 2/8/2022 at 1:19 PM, bluebell said: So you believe that Christ's grace saves people before they accept Him or have faith in Him? And you believe once saved, always saved, right? I believe Christ's grace is sufficient for salvation before anything a person can do. So I don't believe that statement in Moroni.
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