Covid cases, hospitalizations, death trends and other touchy subjects…

[CV75]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

I must have missed these.  
I got double pierced at 14.  I don’t feel like a sinner at all over that issue.  I also will get a tattoo next year.  I got the vaccine before it was discussed by the prophet.  I tend to be comfortable making my own choices with my body as long as it doesn’t preclude full participation in the gospel.  I grant the same rights to others as I decide who I will judge critically. 🤔

I don't know what your emoji means, so my response may not be relevant. I would hope no one feels or treats another like a sinner over not abiding the prophet's counsel over earrings, tats, vax or masks (max if you're from NYC?). But that is certainly the sense I get from some of these back-and-forths. For those that do argue, one way or another, to follow the prophet on these various non-"gospel participation" matters, because he is the prophet, could demonstrate the value of what they are saying by example. Otherwise it's just more rhetoric/polemics. That is why, if I were in charge, I would take measures to calm things down. 

 

Edited September 6, 2021 by CV75

[CV75]

3 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

I’ve followed both. Does that inspire you to get vaccinated now?

You do not fit the criteria for those who followed only one or the other set of counsel and after repenting are encouraging others to follow both.

I never needed a prophet to tell me to not get piercings/tattoos or to get vaccinated and mask. What do you make of that -- am I vaccinated or not?

[Peacefully]

6 minutes ago, CV75 said:

You do not fit the criteria for those who followed only one or the other set of counsel and after repenting are encouraging others to follow both.

I never needed a prophet to tell me to not get piercings/tattoos or to get vaccinated and mask. What do you make of that -- am I vaccinated or not?

I don’t know what you are trying to prove. It doesn’t compute for me. 

[pogi]

38 minutes ago, CV75 said:

You do not fit the criteria for those who followed only one or the other set of counsel and after repenting are encouraging others to follow both.

Must we be perfectly obedient in all prophetic counsel before we can be influential to others in following the more weightier matters of the law?

Shall we compare how much has been said about earrings over the past several decades and how much has been said about masks and vaccines over the last year and a half?  How many church videos have been made about earring?  How many letters sent to the general membership from the first presidency?  How many voices from the apostles?  How many interfaith letters to the world?  How many area presidencies and local leaders have pleaded to only have one set of earrings?  How many lives have been lost in comparison?  How many hospitals overwhelmed?  How many vulnerable people can't go to church because their fellow members have 2 earrings?  

 

Edited September 6, 2021 by pogi

[Chum]

5 hours ago, Ragerunner said:

Here in Florida I have never been surrounded by so much sickness and death at my job and at church in my life. 

FL's governor and legislature knows how to hit their target goals - hard.

[bsjkki]

Anyone else click around World O'meter and compare all the statistics from states? I enjoy sorting state ranking by clicking on the different categories. Utah is #10 in cases per million but #46 in deaths per million. Not bad. Must be a healthy state.  https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

Florida is #17 in deaths per million but #3 in cases per million.

[Calm]

15 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

Must be a healthy state. 

Running young in age, being low in smoking, and higher in overall health likely helps in death rate. 
 

All over 60 are at least 80%, vaccinated with the 70’s almost 90% vaccinated. That likely helps a lot as well. 

Edited September 6, 2021 by Calm

[bsjkki]

Possible MS side effects with vaccine. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00415-021-10780-7

Limited study.

Edited September 6, 2021 by bsjkki

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

Possible MS side effects with vaccine. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00415-021-10780-7

Limited study.

It could just be coincidence, it was going to happen anyway or caused by environmental stress related to Covid being a pandemic as opposed to the vaccination.  Without a comparison to typical numbers, how often this normally occurs, seven occurrences is rather meaningless at this point. 
 

But important to keep track of just in case. 
 

Mentioned in the link above:

Quote

A recent report on COVID-19 vaccine safety in 555 MS patients suggested no increase in post-vaccination relapse rate [56].

Quote

Our report is anecdotal and does not prove a cause-and-effect relationship between SARS-CoV-2 mRNA vaccines and active CNS demyelinating disease. We do not know the number of people with MS who were vaccinated against COVID-19 in the communities from which these cases were derived (Boston, MA and Albany, NY). 

 

Edited September 6, 2021 by Calm

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Which is precisely what people have been saying about prophets from at least the reign of Josiah till today.

Would you please explain this comment? Are you rebuking me? Are you suggesting that I call the prophets’ messages inconsistent? I don’t understand what you are getting at or why you would say such a thing about me. I’m chagrined this even got upvotes.   

I am observing the obvious and continual inconsistency of the messages we get from our government, our medical leaders, and our media. It’s been confusing, to say the least, and it contributes to the skepticism of those who don’t want masks or vaccines. 

[Bernard Gui]

12 hours ago, pogi said:

Sounds like politics to me, and has nothing to do with studies and evidence on masks/mandates.  

Politics has everything to do with this. The politicians make the rules. When the rules are arbitrary and capricious, the integrity of the system is compromised.

12 hours ago, pogi said:

What do you make of the studies I have posted that suggest that mandates have helped, when you weigh them in the balance of your lone study?

I already answered this question. Perhaps you missed it.

12 hours ago, pogi said:

Bernard, one thing is troubling me about all of this.  If you agree that masks can have a positive effect and save lives and reduce the burden of hospitals which are currently drowning, why don't you stand on the side of mask advocacy and education? 
When people like Robert J Anderson come on here and start spewing things that you don't believe like "masks don't work", why are you antagonistic against my efforts to suggest to him that they do work.  If you truly believe what you say, you should be an ally with me to educate people like Robert J Anderson on the efficacy of masks and how to wear them properly. 

That’s the problem, Bro Pogi. I don’t see those who are making the mask rules and mandates observing the rules and mandates they make; therefore, it’s hard to take them seriously.

If things are as serious as we are led to believe, then I would like to see emphasis on the protocols that make masks as effective as possible instead of the constant social shaming, self-righteous chest-beating, threats, and intimidation.

Repeating the “mask up” mantra over and over and over without teaching what that actually means scientifically is a great disservice. It gives a false sense of security. It sews the seeds of doubt and creates resistance. People in authority flaunting the rules they decree breeds contempt for the rules. This is where politics comes into play in earnest.

I have cited numerous personal observations of the hypocrisies and inconsistencies between mandates and reality. Your reaction? “Well, what do you think about these studies?” I’m concerned that you dismiss that as merely political.

I have shared personal experience in our school where lip service is given to “mandates,” but which in reality puts kids in direct opposition to CDC protocols, and you say that “sounds political.” Do you honestly believe any primary grade class in America follows the CDC protocols? Do you honestly think a gooey oozing mask on a kindergartner’s face is a good thing? Or that this scenario is the exception, not the rule? Any mask is better than no mask? I don’t think so, and the science backs me up. Thousands of cheering fans at a sporting event are ok, but kids in a classroom without masks are not? The inconsistencies are glaring.

If we are told to “believe the science” and we are serious about that, we should see the science manifested clearly in serious public discourse and “mandates.” I am not seeing that in the real world in which I live. 

If we are to be allies then we need to figure out how to package science, religion, mandates, and reality into a cohesive message that is compelling without intimidation, shaming, and hypocrisy. The messaging has been a disaster on its own. We should be able to discuss the issues without calling into question one’s intellectual capacity or spiritual attentiveness. 

Quote

One thing is for certain however, not wearing a mask will not work every single time. 

Studies show that wearing a mask every single time is no guarantee either.

Edited September 6, 2021 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

8 hours ago, Teancum said:

Yea how did that work in Sweden?  How is it going in Florida?

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Would you please explain this comment? Are you rebuking me? Are you suggesting that I call the prophets’ messages inconsistent?

Neither. I'm just pointing out that 'inconsistent messaging' is one of the dominant criticisms of prophets and has been for a very long time. Margaret Barker in one of her monographs (I forget which one) discusses how the reforms introduced under King Josiah contributed to a dichotomy in Jewish society between, on one hand, Josiah's priests and the 'Law' and, on the other hand, prophets. The central complaint against the latter, as she explains it, was that prophetic teachings were always shifting and being updated, creating confusion. This tension between a fixed law and living prophets reached a crescendo around 600BC, she argues, resulting in a purge of many prophets from Jerusalem. For Latter-day Saint readers, her analysis provides a very interesting context for Lehi's preaching and subsequent flight from Jerusalem, and some scholars who believe in the Book of Mormon account have even seen this conflict continue to play out between Laman and Lemuel (fixed-law types) and Nephi (a prophet).

In addition, you must certainly be aware that one of the most common criticisms raised by both our critics and former members is that the Latter-day prophets can't keep their messaging consistent? Cf., for example, plural marriage, priesthood restrictions, and how many General Conference sessions there will be on Saturday this October.

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/

I see Sweden with the world's 22nd highest infection rate (7th highest in Europe if one excludes tiny principalities) and the world's 40th highest death rate.

[Rain]

 

13 hours ago, CV75 said:

I don't know what your emoji means, so my response may not be relevant. I would hope no one feels or treats another like a sinner over not abiding the prophet's counsel over earrings, tats, vax or masks (max if you're from NYC?). But that is certainly the sense I get from some of these back-and-forths. For those that do argue, one way or another, to follow the prophet on these various non-"gospel participation" matters, because he is the prophet, could demonstrate the value of what they are saying by example. Otherwise it's just more rhetoric/polemics. That is why, if I were in charge, I would take measures to calm things down. 

 

The follow the prophet thing has been really interesting to me.  All of my life I have seen some people be vocal about following the prophet.  When others haven't they became really judgy.  

So I started to wonder what would happen if the prophet encouraged people to wear a mask.  Would they 'follow the prophet" or not. Generally I see most very vocal follow the prophet people don't wear masks or get vaccinated. 

I talked with the one follow the prophet woman I did know who changed and started wearing masks.  She felt she should follow of the advice of the quote which says something like "as long as you follow the prophet even if he is wrong you are ok."

It makes me wonder if those who are now telling others to "follow the prophet by wearing a mask" were trying to find a more effective way to do it. They knew how strongly these follow the prophet people held to doing that and were consciously or unconsciously hoping this would encourage them to now follow.

Edited September 6, 2021 by Rain

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Neither. I'm just pointing out that 'inconsistent messaging' is one of the dominant criticisms of prophets and has been for a very long time. Margaret Barker in one of her monographs (I forget which one) discusses how the reforms introduced under King Josiah contributed to a dichotomy in Jewish society between, on one hand, Josiah's priests and the 'Law' and, on the other hand, prophets. The central complaint against the latter, as she explains it, was that prophetic teachings were always shifting and being updated, creating confusion. This tension between a fixed law and living prophets reached a crescendo around 600BC, she argues, resulting in a purge of many prophets from Jerusalem. For Latter-day Saint readers, her analysis provides a very interesting context for Lehi's preaching and subsequent flight from Jerusalem, and some scholars who believe in the Book of Mormon account have even seen this conflict continue to play out between Laman and Lemuel (fixed-law types) and Nephi (a prophet).

In addition, you must certainly be aware that one of the most common criticisms raised by both our critics and former members is that the Latter-day prophets can't keep their messaging consistent? Cf., for example, plural marriage, priesthood restrictions, and how many General Conference sessions there will be on Saturday this October.

Brother Hamba, you quoted my comment on inconsistent messages out of context and then observed it is what faithless people have said about the prophets since ancient times. Then you double down with this explanation that such an attitude as mine is linked with the purging of ancient prophets, the struggles between the descendants of Lehi, and criticism of our modern prophets, and then rehash our discussion on the Saturday night Priesthood session. This is the third time you have pitted my words against the prophets and then said, “Oh, no, no.” I’m curious why you do that.

Edited September 6, 2021 by Bernard Gui

[juliann]

18 hours ago, Teancum said:

I never said that any mask is magic so I don't really need to argue the point.  

Anyone touting that 10 Old Navy masks for $5 are effective believes in magic. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Brother Hamba, you quoted my comment on inconsistent messages out of context ...

Not out of context at all. When, in the midst of a global pandemic, you choose to repeatedly sow seeds of doubt in an almost universally accepted public health measure (endorsed multiple times by the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve) using language identical to what apostates and critics have long used to sow seeds of doubt in prophets, then I think you may be the one missing the historical and ideological context of your statements -- quite possibly without realising it.

[BlueDreams]

13 hours ago, CV75 said:

I don't know what your emoji means, so my response may not be relevant. I would hope no one feels or treats another like a sinner over not abiding the prophet's counsel over earrings, tats, vax or masks (max if you're from NYC?). But that is certainly the sense I get from some of these back-and-forths. For those that do argue, one way or another, to follow the prophet on these various non-"gospel participation" matters, because he is the prophet, could demonstrate the value of what they are saying by example. Otherwise it's just more rhetoric/polemics. That is why, if I were in charge, I would take measures to calm things down. 

 

I think it’s a bit of incredulity on my end. Though I don’t think i‘Ve directly made the analogy, I know I’ve up scored it or at least smiled a little when I’ve seen it. It’s a little mind bending to watch people who general are more strict around prophetic counsel or at least more outwardly “in line” with what’s been said over the pulpit that are more cultural lines that have little effect outside oneself if your follow them or not. Earrings and tattoos would fall under that category. Some I know have been extremely judgy of those who don’t or at least appear like they don’t (such as some of the accounts from Al Fox on people’s reactions to her tats in the church).

But with something that can literally save lives and protect others, that to me seems like a moral no-brainer, many who fell in the above camp are using messages and reasonings they’ve rarely if ever used in their life to continue going as they are. And it appears to me they’ve done so with barely a missed step. I have two cousins that fall into this category. Both have a trail of online posts that talk about medical freedom, their choice, some quasi-victim posts about how others are seeing them for not getting vaxxed, etc. They’re also both openly religious and have posted at least at points to indicate being active in the church (things like temple pics). Sometimes they have posts that intermingle their political/social stance with religious undertones. When the first Presidency statement came out and without missing a beat they reposted something from a woman who basically said she wasn’t sweating the statement and believed in her own answers. Later in the responses the said author of this post can be seen stating misinformation, several interactions talked about ivermectin as an appropriate counter to vaccines, and some general fear mongering around the vaccine as a whole ensued as reasons for their choices. Which leaves me dumbfounded and, well, incredulous. 
 

It’s not necessarily that they disagree or are moving counter to prophetic counsel. It’s that they tend not to and have likely questioned at times others who do. That they’re using mottos and trumpets to proclaim their position that they previously opposed And even sneered at. Until it’s them on that other side of the fence. It makes me question what is the “spirit” to them? Are they used to it moreso being a source of self-validation than a guidepost to deep and meaningful change? How does one get to trusting political and social talking points over one’s usual religious stances? 

For the record I don’t have more than one piercing and I don’t have tattoos, so your parallel on that one fell a little short for me. But I have definitely had moments of disagreement with statements or talks from prophets and apostles and general church leaders. I’m not one who believes that “follow the prophet” mean do every last tip they suggest for our lives with little questioning.  What this and also the Holland talk controversy brought out of me though is questioning how I disagree. Do I take time to read it through? Do I look fully into “their side” per se on this or that concern? Why am I disagreeing, sometimes reactively…what’s my emotions behind it? And lastly being willing to step back and proverbially ask “is it I?”  As in is it me that’s wrong or overextending my knowledge base and am I sure? Am I really open to the idea or potential that I could be wrong? 
 

 

With luv, 

BD 

[juliann]

18 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I believe that no mask is 100%, but I believe they help slow things down. I also have always and will continue to cover my face when I sneeze and cough.  It’s certainly not a guarantee protection for others but I can’t imagine abandoning that practice simply because it’s imperfect.  
I will wear an N95 mask when I’m public, as I am assuming it protects you a little more in case I’ve got it and I’m also believing  it protects me a tiny bit more assuming anyone else has it.  
 

If that makes me an idiot I can live with that.  Covid sucks for EVERYONE.  The losses of lifestyle are so hard for so many of us to cope with.  

But you wear a N95 which means that you don't believe all masks are effective. That is exactly my point. 

 

17 hours ago, Rain said:

 

I really liked the thing posted a few weeks ago showing the effectiveness of different types of masks and different ways of wearing them.  I was surprised that the least effective mask was still stopping 26%.  Obviously nothing compared to 50, 75, 90%+, but still stopped some.  

That gave me hope and gave me a good reason to continue wearing masks most everywhere. It isn't going to stop it all, but maybe it can slow it down.

 But the least effective masks were those most people are likely wearing. I can't think of one thing I would do if there was a 26% chance of my being safe while doing it. But we have a world now loudly proclaiming that "masks" will make us safe. 

 

15 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

I’m kinda surprised this research hasn’t made the rounds yet: https://www.poverty-action.org/study/impact-mask-distribution-and-promotion-mask-uptake-and-covid-19-bangladesh

To note: it is currently pre peer-review. But the study the first (or at least one of the very few) to hit the gold standard in the medical research community. Meaning it’s a randomized trial, held in real world settings, and is large scale (~300k participants). The study focused on a few things: mask v no mask, cloth v surgical masks, and means to get adherence to proper mask wearing in lower income countries as well as how these effected social distancing. They were able to up the numbers of proper mask wearing from 14% to 43% in targeted villages. This increase (which note, isn’t even fully half the pop) showed decrease in symptomatic covid with masking. It was slight for cloth (5%) but significant for surgical (12, I believe) 

it supports the basic idea that mask is better than nothing, and better threaded masking (like surgical ones) are better overall. 
 

With luv, 
BD 

All that study proves is that if a group of researchers who obviously know what makes a mask safer, makes your masks and trains you how to wear them, you will be, well, safer. I don't think that was ever in question.  It did not test anyone wearing cheap off the shelf masks with gaping gaps that we are regularly told will protect us because [all] "masks" work. 

I wear kn95s to be protected.  

[Hamba Tuhan]

7 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

It makes me question what is the “spirit” to them? Are they used to it moreso being a source of self-validation than a guidepost to deep and meaningful change?

During the Q&A with Elder Bednar at our regional priesthood leadership training meeting, someone asked how to distinguish between his own desires and the guidance of the Holy Ghost. The apostle had a number of things to say, but one of them really stood out to me: 'God doesn't often need to tell us that we're right; instead; He reserves revelation for when He needs to tell us that we're wrong. If the message you are getting is one of correction, there's a good chance it's the Holy Ghost'.

Edited September 6, 2021 by Hamba Tuhan

[pogi]

11 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

That’s the problem, Bro Pogi. I don’t see those who are making the mask rules and mandates observing the rules and mandates they make; therefore, it’s hard to take them seriously.

If things are as serious as we are led to believe, then I would like to see emphasis on the protocols that make masks as effective as possible instead of the constant social shaming, self-righteous chest-beating, threats, and intimidation.

Then be the change you want to see in the world.  If yo truly believe that masks can save lives start being an advocate instead of a naysayer.  Sure, you can complain and campaign against government, but for some reason I don't think you really want to see the kind of change that you are giving lip service to on here. 

11 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Repeating the “mask up” mantra over and over and over without teaching what that actually means scientifically is a great disservice. It gives a false sense of security. It sews the seeds of doubt and creates resistance. People in authority flaunting the rules they decree breeds contempt for the rules. This is where politics comes into play in earnest.

I have cited numerous personal observations of the hypocrisies and inconsistencies between mandates and reality. Your reaction? “Well, what do you think about these studies?” I’m concerned that you dismiss that as merely political.

I think you know better Bernard and can see through the politics and make good decisions based on the data, instead of taking your lead from politicians.  If your government leaders are inconsistent about wearing masks, well, perhaps YOU should be the good example we need.  If government leaders are inconsistent and don't mandate masks at ball games - wear one anyway.  Must we be mandated in all things.  My point is to get people to see beyond the politics and act on the science - because they know it is right, not because they have to.

11 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I have shared personal experience in our school where lip service is given to “mandates,” but which in reality puts kids in direct opposition to CDC protocols, and you say that “sounds political.” Do you honestly believe any primary grade class in America follows the CDC protocols? Do you honestly think a gooey oozing mask on a kindergartner’s face is a good thing? Or that this scenario is the exception, not the rule? Any mask is better than no mask? I don’t think so, and the science backs me up. Thousands of cheering fans at a sporting event are ok, but kids in a classroom without masks are not? The inconsistencies are glaring.

The data suggests that mandates work.  My son is in kindergarten.  It is not as bad as you make it out to be, at least here where my son goes to school.  The few kids who do wear masks, wear them well.  It is not as hard as you think to teach a 5 year old to wear a mask properly.  From my observation, most children wear masks better than adults, quite honestly.

11 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

If we are told to “believe the science” and we are serious about that, we should see the science manifested clearly in serious public discourse and “mandates.” I am not seeing that in the real world in which I live. 

That simply is not realistic.  We can't expect politics to align with the science.  Neither should we allow that to cause us to question the science etc. 

11 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

If we are to be allies then we need to figure out how to package science, religion, mandates, and reality into a cohesive message that is compelling without intimidation, shaming, and hypocrisy. The messaging has been a disaster on its own. We should be able to discuss the issues without calling into question one’s intellectual capacity or spiritual attentiveness. 

  I would love to hear your ideas on that packaging.

11 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Studies show that wearing a mask every single time is no guarantee either.

Studies show that mandates (as imperfect as they are) work better than the alternative, and NEVER make matter worse.  Again, no masks never work.  That IS a guarantee.

My point to show that mandates work is not to suggest that how they have been implemented is ideal or couldn't be improved.  I would love to see masks in arenas too (would you?). My point is to show that masks are better than no masks, even in imperfect conditions.  We can do better though.  We don't need mandates to do what is right.  We can act out of our own agency and free will.  So, where mask mandates fall short, Bernard, lets encourage people to do what is right instead of bemoan and blame others for our bad attitude about masks.  Don't bemoan masks, bemoan politics. 

[Tacenda]

46 minutes ago, juliann said:

Anyone touting that 10 Old Navy masks for $5 are effective believes in magic. 

Well at the tail end of the mandatory masks, I bought that deal at Old Navy or maybe they were even cheaper, and I feel they work. I feel my mask around the openings and it's close to my cheeks/face and I try to wear it properly and tight fitting. Have you worn one to know? Just curious..

[CV75]

14 hours ago, Peacefully said:

I don’t know what you are trying to prove. It doesn’t compute for me. 

I agree. Maybe I can rephrase: on what basis do you make the assumption that I am not vaccinated?

My earlier question was for those who did not follow the prophet on earrings but have since "repented" and now follow him on vaccines, and use that to demonstrate the faulty reasoning of vaccine-hesitant believers who followed the prophet on earrings . You are not one of those people, as you've followed the prophet on both issues. On the other hand, I never needed a prophet to tell me to not get piercings/tattoos or to get vaccinated and mask.

What is it about my last 3 or 4 posts that would indicated whether I am vaccinated or not?

Edited September 6, 2021 by CV75

[Peacefully]

3 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I agree. Maybe I can rephrase: on what basis do you make the assumption that I am not vaccinated?

My earlier question was for those who did not follow the prophet on earrings but have since "repented" and now follow him on vaccines, and use that to demonstrate the faulty reasoning of vaccine-resistant believers who followed the prophet on earrings . You are not one of those people, as you've followed the prophet on both issues. On the other hand, I never needed a prophet to tell me to not get piercings/tattoos or to get vaccinated and mask.

What is it about my last 3 or 4 posts that would indicated whether I am vaccinated or not?

I wasn’t sure whether or not you were vaccinated, but it sounded like you thought many people who follow the prophet in vaccines do not follow him on other things. In case you were still wavering, and needed to find someone who follows the prophet on both vaccines and piercings/tattoos, I offered myself as an example. If you are vaccinated, then so much the better.