The church's billions in perspective.

[Fair Dinkum]

From an article in the NY Times, the reporters broke down a million vs a billion this way to help his/her readers wrap their heads around our national debt.  I thought the information would be helpful in letting us wrap our heads around the vast wealth of the church and its rainy day fund. 

"A million seconds is about 12 days. And a billion seconds? That’s about 32 years." 

That is incredible wealth.  The recent donation to the NAACP, while generous and something I personally applaud, was $10 million dollars or 120 days worth of seconds out of 1,518,400 days in the rainy day fund.  The church could literally donate 10 million dollars everyday to some worthy organization and not even taking into account growth to its assets make that daily donation everyday for 35 years straight years before running out of money.

And that wouldn't even be tapping into tithing funds.

Makes one go Hmmm

Edited June 17, 2021 by Fair Dinkum

[OGHoosier]

16 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

And that wouldn't even be tapping into tithing funds.

Makes one go Hmmm

I personally go "hmmmmm" quite a lot, mostly because I enjoy humming to myself while I do things or walk from place to place.

And, having observed this "perspective", I shall continue my strolling, humming, and enjoyment of life utterly unperturbed. 

This horse has been whipped down to the bone. 

[jkwilliams]

23 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

From an article in the NY Times, the reporters broke down a million vs a billion this way to help his/her readers wrap their heads around our national debt.  I thought the information would be helpful in letting us wrap our heads around the vast wealth of the church and its rainy day fund. 

"A million seconds is about 12 days. And a billion seconds? That’s about 32 years." 

That is incredible wealth.  The recent donation to the NAACP, while generous and something I personally applaud, was $10 million dollars or 120 days worth of seconds out of 1,518,400 days in the rainy day fund.  The church could literally donate 10 million dollars everyday to some worthy organization and not even taking into account growth to its assets make that daily donation everyday for 35 years straight years before running out of money.

And that wouldn't even be tapping into tithing funds.

Makes one go Hmmm

Reminds me of a scripture.

19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

I don't begrudge the church making sure it's solvent, but yeah, that's a heck of a lot of money just sitting there.

[ksfisher]

20 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I don't begrudge the church making sure it's solvent, but yeah, that's a heck of a lot of money just sitting there.

Do you wonder if Joseph was told the same thing after 7 fat years in Egypt? 

[jkwilliams]

Just now, ksfisher said:

Do you wonder if Joseph was told the same thing after 7 fat years in Egypt? 

$100 billion will last a lot longer than 7 years. Like I said, I don't begrudge the church saving for a rainy day. 

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

From an article in the NY Times, the reporters broke down a million vs a billion this way to help his/her readers wrap their heads around our national debt.  I thought the information would be helpful in letting us wrap our heads around the vast wealth of the church and its rainy day fund. 

"A million seconds is about 12 days. And a billion seconds? That’s about 32 years." 

That is incredible wealth.  The recent donation to the NAACP, while generous and something I personally applaud, was $10 million dollars or 120 days worth of seconds out of 1,518,400 days in the rainy day fund.  The church could literally donate 10 million dollars everyday to some worthy organization and not even taking into account growth to its assets make that daily donation everyday for 35 years straight years before running out of money.

And that wouldn't even be tapping into tithing funds.

Makes one go Hmmm

Meh... better in their hands than yours! 😏

 

[CV75]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

$100 billion will last a lot longer than 7 years. Like I said, I don't begrudge the church saving for a rainy day. 

Do you any scriptures about saving for a rainy day, or not begrudging those that do? In the same vein as scriptures about treasures in heaven? They are there to be found!

[JAHS]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

Reminds me of a scripture.

19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:

20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

I don't begrudge the church making sure it's solvent, but yeah, that's a heck of a lot of money just sitting there.

That scripture doesn't really apply. The church does not "treasure" or love money. The church's "treasure" is the building and maintaining the kingdom of God, which unfortunately on this earth takes money.

Luke 14:28 - For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?

[smac97]

3 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

From an article in the NY Times, the reporters broke down a million vs a billion this way to help his/her readers wrap their heads around our national debt.  I thought the information would be helpful in letting us wrap our heads around the vast wealth of the church and its rainy day fund. 

"A million seconds is about 12 days. And a billion seconds? That’s about 32 years." 

That is incredible wealth. 

And despite that, the Brethren are not enriching themselves.  Instead, the wealth of the Church is held and utilized in trust for the benefit of its members and neighbors throughout the world.

Moreover, I think this comment attributed to D. Michael Quinn merits some attention:

Quote

Questions persist inside and outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints about the $100 billion reserve the faith has amassed in an investment account.

In this week’s “Mormon Land” podcast, historian D. Michael Quinn says the church’s reserves are actually much steeper than has been reported. But, he adds, so are its expenses, especially in supporting its global presence.

Quinn, a scholar who has done the deepest dive to date into the history of Latter-day Saint finances — his 2017 book, “Mormon Hierarchy: Wealth & Corporate Power,” remains the definitive volume on the subject — discusses the issue.

Listen here.

It's a good interview.

Quote

The recent donation to the NAACP, while generous and something I personally applaud, was $10 million dollars or 120 days worth of seconds out of 1,518,400 days in the rainy day fund.  The church could literally donate 10 million dollars everyday to some worthy organization and not even taking into account growth to its assets make that daily donation everyday for 35 years straight years before running out of money.

And that wouldn't even be tapping into tithing funds.

Makes one go Hmmm

If the donation to the NAACP was an isolated and atypical incident of the Church being involved in charitable endeavors, you would have more of a point.  

I think the Church faces a real challenge in terms of complying with Matthew 6:

Quote

1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.
...
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

I think there are a lot of things that the Church and its members do that never see the light of day.  "Alms ... in secret," as it were.

Additionally, the Church also has an obligation to be a wise steward of its means.  As Quinn notes, the Church struggled for most of its history in terms of financial stability.  Then things changed:

Quote

This article by Peggy Fletcher Stack is about Quinn's most recent book: Historian digs into the hidden world of Mormon finances, shows how church went from losing money to making money — lots of it

Some excerpts:

...

Quote

{The early} church and its leaders faced repeated fiscal hardships — losing everything each time they had to abandon their homes and communities.

That would have been tough for any group, but Latter-day Saints were especially hard hit.

...

Like Smith, the “vast majority of Mormonism’s 19th-century leaders,” Quinn writes, “had previously been subsistence farmers or working-class townspeople with limited finances.”

Congregations were led by lay clergy, who received no remuneration. But even those leaders who worked full time in ecclesiastical roles received little payment.

...

Most believers had paid tithing, but they did so in an uneven and unpredictable fashion until about 1900, when then-church President Lorenzo Snow asked members to pay on a “regular and consistent basis,” Quinn says. Tithing became a requirement for admittance to LDS temples, where Mormons take part in their faith’s highest ordinances.

That mandate had a clear and immediate impact.

At that time, the church was $2.5 million in debt, he says, but because of the tithing push, Snow’s successor Joseph F. Smith could announce in 1907 that the institution was debt-free.

Within a couple of decades, though, the red ink again began to flow.

From 1933 to 1950, the church saved about 72 percent of its annual income, creating a large reserve. But a building program from 1958 to 1963 blotted out all the reserve funds, and the church didn’t have enough liquid assets to meet all its obligations.

Starting in 1959, the faith began deficit spending, Quinn says, and thus stopped reporting its expenditures in General Conferences, hoping to keep that fact from the members.

By December 1962, the deficit had ballooned to nearly $33 million (or about $236 million in 2010 dollars) and, in 1963, the historian says, LDS headquarters “didn’t think it could meet its payroll.”

Such anxiety led leaders to take steps to ensure that would never happen again.

They brought Canadian N. Eldon Tanner on board as an apostle. Tapping his enormous financial know-how, the church began to rebuild its nest egg, cutting back on building projects and overseeing investments until it could get back in the black.

Tanner was “methodically rescuing the church from the brink,” Quinn writes. “By 1964, commercial income accounted for about 40 to 45 percent of its total income.”

Step by step, the historian writes, Tanner introduced the church to “corporate financing.”

It never looked back.

"Corporate financing?"  Ick!  Terrible!

But it's "corporate financing" and the Church's revelatory mandates that, when paired together, are allowing the Church to have sufficient resources to meet its obligations, to stabilize and strengthen the Church's financial state, to subsidize the Church and its members in areas where such help is needed, and to do all of these things with the leaders of the Church living decidedly modest, non-profligate lives. 

Nevertheless, there will always be those who say the Church should do "more."  No matter what the Church does, such criticisms will be perennial.  Kathleen Flake called it:

Quote

Pondering the merit of added transparency for the church’s finances, Flake asks why the church doesn’t simply open up its records.

Her answer: The alleged problem is not about financial malfeasance, “it’s about competing views of what should be done with Church money and who gets to say so.”

“In other words,” Flake concludes, “this is a power struggle ... and one that we’ve seen before from those who don’t understand Mormonism and how it handles its money.”

Yep.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited June 17, 2021 by smac97

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

From an article in the NY Times, the reporters broke down a million vs a billion this way to help his/her readers wrap their heads around our national debt.  I thought the information would be helpful in letting us wrap our heads around the vast wealth of the church and its rainy day fund. 

"A million seconds is about 12 days. And a billion seconds? That’s about 32 years." 

That is incredible wealth.  The recent donation to the NAACP, while generous and something I personally applaud, was $10 million dollars or 120 days worth of seconds out of 1,518,400 days in the rainy day fund.  The church could literally donate 10 million dollars everyday to some worthy organization and not even taking into account growth to its assets make that daily donation everyday for 35 years straight years before running out of money.

And that wouldn't even be tapping into tithing funds.

Makes one go Hmmm

Most of the LDS Church's "vast wealth" is tied up in bldgs and land, a good deal of which is ranches and farms which produce the meat and veggies that are packed by Church institutions and given away free to the needy.  The RCatholic Church has the same dilemma -- not as much cash as bldgs and land -- yet they sponsor vast charitable operations worldwide.

The LDS Church does not have a rainy day fund, so much as it has tithing which was invested until needed, in accord with Jesus' insistence that His followers should invest their silver-talents.  Jesus explicitly instructed (in His parable of the Talents) that monies be invested.  Now, of course, if Jesus is just a dead body that turned to dust, and if LDS religion is just an illusion, would that mean to you that all such investments should be spent immediately to help the needy worldwide?  Ever heard of an energy sink?  Do you realize that giving a man a fish feeds him for a day, but teaching him to fish feeds him for life?  Monies wisely spent should help people help themselves, raise them up to independence, so that they can fend for themselves.  That is a complex and worthy objective, but is not a matter of just spending money like a sailor.  Humans must learn to become mature and caring.  Otherwise the entire endeavor is meaningless and will be a failure.

The theory that the LDS Church (and all religion, for that matter) is false does not mean that good cannot be done to help people rise above their lowlife addictions and be helped to become actual human beings (rather than just another species of instinctive animal, smart though they may be).

[Robert F. Smith]

19 minutes ago, JAHS said:

That scripture doesn't really apply. The church does not "treasure" or love money. The church's "treasure" is the building and maintaining the kingdom of God, which unfortunately on this earth takes money.

Luke 14:28 - For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?

Not only that, but Jesus' words were directed at individuals, not to pious foundations (which were quite common in Egypt).  And why did St Paul take up a collection for the poor? (Acts 20, I Cor 16, Gal 2:10)  Charitable acts are central to Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.  But how does one organize such efforts in order to make them constant and adequate?

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, JAHS said:

That scripture doesn't really apply. The church does not "treasure" or love money. The church's "treasure" is the building and maintaining the kingdom of God, which unfortunately on this earth takes money.

Luke 14:28 - For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?

One could argue that a $100 billion plus find (plus all the land, buildings and other businesses) is far in excess of what is needed to "maintain the kingdom of God" demonstrates a love of treasure and money.  How much money is needed to maintain?

[Fair Dinkum]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Most of the LDS Church's "vast wealth" is tied up in bldgs and land, a good deal of which is ranches and farms which produce the meat and veggies that are packed by Church institutions and given away free to the needy.  The RCatholic Church has the same dilemma -- not as much cash as bldgs and land -- yet they sponsor vast charitable operations worldwide.

Actually the $130 billion is a stock and bond fund, but yes you are correct in that it's real wealth is in it's real property assets of land, buildings and AgReserve which some have estimated at well over $500 billion.

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The LDS Church does not have a rainy day fund,

Actually I did not make up that term, it is the one used by church PR following the leak.  So it is their term not mine.

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Monies wisely spent should help people help themselves, raise them up to independence, so that they can fend for themselves.  That is a complex and worthy objective, but is not a matter of just spending money like a sailor.  Humans must learn to become mature and caring.  Otherwise the entire endeavor is meaningless and will be a failure.

And the church does do a lot in this area

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The theory that the LDS Church (and all religion, for that matter) is false does not mean that good cannot be done to help people rise above their lowlife addictions and be helped to become actual human beings (rather than just another species of instinctive animal, smart though they may be).

Meh

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

And despite that, the Brethren are not enriching themselves.  Instead, the wealth of the Church is held and utilized in trust for the benefit of its members and neighbors throughout the world.

You make this argument often. What does it matter that the leaders are not enriching themselves? What is being questioned is whether such an enormous sum of $$$ should simply continue to be invested rather than deployed for the benefit of members and neighbors throughout the world.  Currently a meager portion of the $$$ is used for such purposes.

[jkwilliams]

3 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Actually the $130 billion is a stock and bond fund, but yes you are correct in that it's real wealth is in it's real property assets of land, buildings and AgReserve which some have estimated at well over $500 billion.

Actually I did not make up that term, it is the one used by church PR following the leak.  So it is their term not mine.

And the church does do a lot in this area

Meh

As I recall, AgReserve is a for-profit business, not an arm of church welfare. Most of the church's agriculture holdings, therefore, are for profit.

[Tacenda]

2 minutes ago, Teancum said:

You make this argument often. What does it matter that the leaders are not enriching themselves? What is being questioned is whether such an enormous sum of $$$ should simply continue to be invested rather than deployed for the benefit of members and neighbors throughout the world.  Currently a meager portion of the $$$ is used for such purposes.

It's a tough subject. I wonder if the problem lies in those in charge figuring out how much to donate from the monies that are from the business establishments. Recently I saw an article that said the church bought a 100 million dollar Marriott hotel that was for sale in Maui, Hawaii. I wonder what they will do with it.

It would be nice to see the church put more money out there, but I'm a broken record. Or put money towards things for the members such as a good ward house building if it's run down, or a bigger ward budget for the members to enjoy, or more money for charities that are good picks than the percentages given at the moment. The church will have no problem with money going forward with that kind of wealth that will continually multiply. But I'm one that gets in trouble for the things I say on the matter and it's like kicking a dead horse.

But hope that whomever makes these decisions will open their minds and hearts and hopefully prayers will be sent and the Lord will somehow show the way, since He was all about taking care of the poor and needy. Which members are excellent to do, but not so sure about the business side of the church. 

[smac97]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Quote

And despite that, the Brethren are not enriching themselves.  Instead, the wealth of the Church is held and utilized in trust for the benefit of its members and neighbors throughout the world.

You make this argument often.

Alas, our critics and dissidents tend to harp on so about these matters.  Many topics are copy-and-paste jobs these days.

Quote

What does it matter that the leaders are not enriching themselves?

It matters quite a bit.  Context.  The corrupting effect of large sums of money on religious leaders is broadly inferred or assumed.  We've seen many instances of serious misconduct of religious leaders who use their positions and influence to enrich themselves.  Kenneth Copeland.  Creflo Dollar.  Ken Hagin.  Benny Hinn.  Robert Tilton.

Living large on the Widow's Mite, as it were.

But that's not happening with the Brethren.  That's not happening.

Quote

What is being questioned is whether such an enormous sum of $$$ should simply continue to be invested rather than deployed for the benefit of members and neighbors throughout the world. 

See my quote above from Kathleen Flake.

Quote

Currently a meager portion of the $$$ is used for such purposes.

See my quotes above (Matthew 6 and Quinn).

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited June 17, 2021 by smac97

[pogi]

Why are people still speculating on what the money will be used for?

Hello!

[Duncan]

Our Stake, and I presume others, every two weeks, has a Bishop's Storehouse and I figure the Church drops at least 3-5K for food for people.  When it works well it's a good thing. When it doesn't.....last year a family got 6K in meat alone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's like the meat budget for a small zoo!!!!!!!!!! who east 6 big ones in meat?! But overall the storehouse is working out and helping people with food and other items.

[Fether]

 

5 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

From an article in the NY Times, the reporters broke down a million vs a billion this way to help his/her readers wrap their heads around our national debt.  I thought the information would be helpful in letting us wrap our heads around the vast wealth of the church and its rainy day fund. 

"A million seconds is about 12 days. And a billion seconds? That’s about 32 years." 

That is incredible wealth.  The recent donation to the NAACP, while generous and something I personally applaud, was $10 million dollars or 120 days worth of seconds out of 1,518,400 days in the rainy day fund.  The church could literally donate 10 million dollars everyday to some worthy organization and not even taking into account growth to its assets make that daily donation everyday for 35 years straight years before running out of money.

And that wouldn't even be tapping into tithing funds.

Makes one go Hmmm

Couple experiences I have had:

- I was feeding ducks one day with my family. I had a lot of bread and there was currently only a handful of ducks in the water. The bread wasn’t particularly valuable, I had a lot of it and it was fairly easy to come by. I started feeding the docs and more and more started to come. Eventually I had over a dozen ducks trying to get the bread I was giving them. They started fighting each other over every scrap. Eventually a goose showed up and became very hostile. Then the goose came on to land and chased us and our bread.

- On my mission, I served in a city that was fairly poor. I would say about 20% of the city was on welfare. I remember sitting in a house with a perfectly able husband and wife who were enraged because the government was late to mailing their disability and unemployment checks. He hadn’t had a cigarette in over a day and he was getting angry. This was not a unique scenario, we often had people reaching out to us and taking our lessons with the expectation of a hand out of some sort. We lost a few investigators when they saw the process they had to go through to get financial help.

 

I am all for helping those where we can. I have given money and service to friends and family in need. What I am not for is having or creating an organization for the soul purpose of solving people financial problems.

I think one reason the church isn’t giving every member $10,000 a year is because it would destroy us spiritually. There are those that genuinely need help, and they can go to their local leaders for that assistance. But for the church to become a money printer would be more destructive than helpful. It would blur the lines as to what the church’s role is.

Edited June 17, 2021 by Fether

[let’s roll]

5 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

I thought the information would be helpful in letting us wrap our heads around the vast wealth of the church and its rainy day fund. 

What is tough to wrap my head around, and what provides some million, billion, trillion perspective is that the Church’s rainy day fund would fund only about 2 percent of the budget recently presented to Congress.

[Teancum]

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

Alas, our critics and dissidents tend to harp on so about these matters.  Many topics are copy-and-paste jobs these days.

Quote

What does it matter that the leaders are not enriching themselves?

It matters quite a bit.  Context.  The corrupting effect of large sums of money on religious leaders is broadly inferred or assumed.  We've seen many instances of serious misconduct of religious leaders who use their positions and influence to enrich themselves.  Kenneth Copeland.  Creflo Dollar.  Ken Hagin.  Benny Hinn.  Robert Tilton.

Living large on the Widow's Mite, as it were.

But that's not happening with the Brethren.  That's not happening.

It would matter if people were making the argument that they are enriching themselves which I am not making. Nor do I see others making it here. Accordingly it does not matter to the point of the discussion.

[Teancum]

5 hours ago, smac97 said:

I think there are a lot of things that the Church and its members do that never see the light of day.  "Alms ... in secret," as it were.

Pure speculation and conjecture. And the church is pretty good about publicizing such things even to the point of the helping hands t shirts.

[Scott Lloyd]

7 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

$100 billion will last a lot longer than 7 years. Like I said, I don't begrudge the church saving for a rainy day. 

Kind of sounded like it there for a moment. But I’ll take your word for it. 

[Scott Lloyd]

26 minutes ago, Teancum said:

It would matter if people were making the argument that they are enriching themselves which I am not making. Nor do I see others making it here. Accordingly it does not matter to the point of the discussion.

Then why fuss over it?

Oh, I know. It’s because the Church, notwithstanding the constant good it does, is not doing it in a manner that precisely meets with your approval. 

Edited June 17, 2021 by Scott Lloyd