Mixed messages and the future of the church

[The Nehor]

13 minutes ago, california boy said:

 

Can I ask you a sincere question?  Is there ANY situation that you can think of where a person could not point to some scripture to "prove" it is just a fulfillment of what has been foretold?  

All 15 apostles killed simultaneously. The Priesthood keys are gone. No prophecy you could spin for that.

Odin appearing in all his glory calling on faithful warriors to ride for Ragnarok. The Fenris wolf has been unleashed. The end of days is upon us!

Alien killer crabs land on Earth and start exterminating humanity.

Were you looking for more likely scenarios?

Edited June 14, 2021 by The Nehor

[jkwilliams]

4 minutes ago, jbarm said:

I really didn't miss the point.  The underlying point of the critics is that the Church needs to embrace and endorse gay marriage to truly be pro family or whatever. 

This post is making the same argument, just from an oblique angle. 

 

I’d be happy if they just got their story straight. 

[JustAnAustralian]

6 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

All 15 apostles killed simultaneously. The Priesthood keys are gone. No prophecy you could spin for that.

We'd need the 70 to get wiped out too. D&C 107:26 allow for the 15 to be absent. But other than that, yes, given we've repeatedly been told this is the last dispensation, a loss of priesthood authority would be a downer.

Edited June 14, 2021 by JustAnAustralian

[california boy]

21 minutes ago, JustAnAustralian said:

Elder Callister isn't saying that "love and compassion" for LGBTQ+ is part of Satan's plan. 

He is saying that Satan uses terms like "love and compassion" to push endorsement of SSM.

It's pretty clear that what he says is Satan's use of "love and compassion" is different to the church's use of it.

This is really the core of the problem.  The Church preaches a message of "love and compassion" for the LGBT community and members, but it doesn't allow for those that are LGBT to form very basic human relationships that are as much a part of our DNA as fight or flight.  How can a Church be compassionate while requiring those that are gay to suffer over something that really should be left for God to sort out.  Isn't that the approach the Church has taken in regards to how it handles multiple straight marriage situations such as a woman being sealed to more than one man?  You are right.  The Church does use the phrase love and compassion differently.  I think few LGBT people feel the love and compassion position of the Church is nothing more than PR.  There is nothing that supports that statement by actual actions.

Over the years, one thing that I have noticed with unfailing consistence.  When I tell people that I am gay and I used to be Mormon, no one has EVER asked me why I left the Church.  

[california boy]

8 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

All 15 apostles killed simultaneously. The Priesthood keys are gone. No prophecy you could spin for that.

I know you are kidding but actually there are scriptures that foretold that all of the apostles would be gone and the Priesthood keys would be lost.  We used these scriptures to "prove" that the Church of Christ needed to be restored.  

8 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Odin appearing in all his glory calling on faithful warriors to ride for Ragnarok. The Fenris wolf has been unleashed. The end of days is upon us!

There are scriptures that talk about false gods and the destruction of those that follow them.  Heck one of the 10 Commandments is about not having any other gods before me.  Odin must have been real.  If not, what other gods are being referred to?  And plenty of scriptures foretelling that Satan will run rampant in the last days.  He can certainly take the persona of Fenris.

8 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Alien killer crabs land on Earth and start exterminating humanity.

Yeah people find references to aliens in the scripture all the time.  If alien killer crabs landed on earth and starts exterminating humanity, Isaiah has foretold it.

8 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Were you looking for more likely scenarios?

Not really.  Even the most unlikely scenarios can be supported by scriptures.  

 

[The Nehor]

47 minutes ago, california boy said:

I know you are kidding but actually there are scriptures that foretold that all of the apostles would be gone and the Priesthood keys would be lost.  We used these scriptures to "prove" that the Church of Christ needed to be restored.  

There are scriptures that talk about false gods and the destruction of those that follow them.  Heck one of the 10 Commandments is about not having any other gods before me.  Odin must have been real.  If not, what other gods are being referred to?  And plenty of scriptures foretelling that Satan will run rampant in the last days.  He can certainly take the persona of Fenris.

Yeah people find references to aliens in the scripture all the time.  If alien killer crabs landed on earth and starts exterminating humanity, Isaiah has foretold it.

Not really.  Even the most unlikely scenarios can be supported by scriptures.  

 

They did foretell that but with the Restoration it was promised they would never again be removed from the Earth.

If the Fenris Wolf shows up I will assume God is planning for a much more exciting end of the world than I had anticipated. I would be excited. If Odin showed himself to be God I might be weirded out though.

Some try to spin aliens as real but if they start exterminating humanity it would probably make people face some doctrinal questions. Especially if they start with Salt Lake.

I guess you could support anything but I don’t think most members would have a broad enough interpretation of scriptures to weather these kinds of events. There are some who can spin them to mean anything and others who can spin them to demand impossible things and say those things have happened.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

I’d be happy if they just got their story straight. 

More fun to be mysterious.

[ttribe]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

I don't personally see this is a disconnect or a mixed message, but I do see it as a poorly communicated thought.

What I believe Callister is saying in the bold above is the equivalent of what Rick Warren said a long time ago--"The problem is that tolerant has changed its meaning. It used to mean 'I may disagree with you completely, but I will treat you with respect. Today, tolerant means - 'you must approve of everything I do.' There's a difference between tolerance and approval. Jesus accepted everyone no matter who they were. He doesn't approve of everything I do, or you do, or anybody else does either. You can be accepting without being approving."

I think Callister is trying to say that today people demand that love and compassion must equal endorsement of SSM, or it's not love and compassion, and that that mindset (the underlined part) is a "disguise" of satan.  He's not saying that love and compassion for lgtbq people is a disguise.

I actually think that the slc tribune article is making Callister's point:  that society is now at the place where many sources of information will "preach" that anything less than full endorsement is worthy of derision. 

If that is what he meant to say, then he should have actually said that.

Edited June 14, 2021 by ttribe

[bluebell]

19 minutes ago, ttribe said:

If that is what he meant to sa, then he should have actually said that.

That is how I read it (and I'm not the only one), so I think he did say that.  I agree that it could have been communicated in a way that didn't leave so much room to misunderstand it.  I also believe that there are a lot of people (good, sincere people) who are very invested in being angry at the church over their teachings concerning SSM.  With that kind of anger and hurt in play (and self-righteous indignation too), it's not surprising that Elder Callister's words have been so easily misunderstood.  

But let's be fair and honest.  People are upset by Elder Callister's remarks because he reminded them that the church and church teachings do not endorse SSM or homosexual lifestyles.  There is no way that he could have expressed that---nothing that he could have said in any better or more clear of a way---that would not have angered the same people that are angered now.  He could have clearly explained how satan's disguises love and compassion as a demand for acceptance, with no room for misunderstanding, and his talk would have received the exact same reception.

The complaints might not have been about 'mixed messages' but there still would have been just as many complaints.   

Let's not pretend that what the slc tribune has a problem with is that the church isn't being consistent in their view.  The church could be 100% consistent, with no room for any misinterpretation, and the slc tribune would still have just aa big of a problem with what Callister said.  It's easy to complain about inconsistency, and the slc tribune loves it some low hanging fruit, but that's not really what some are up in arms about and we all know that.

 

Edited June 14, 2021 by bluebell

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

This is really the core of the problem.  The Church preaches a message of "love and compassion" for the LGBT community and members, but it doesn't allow for those that are LGBT to form very basic human relationships that are as much a part of our DNA as fight or flight.  How can a Church be compassionate while requiring those that are gay to suffer over something that really should be left for God to sort out.  Isn't that the approach the Church has taken in regards to how it handles multiple straight marriage situations such as a woman being sealed to more than one man?  You are right.  The Church does use the phrase love and compassion differently.  I think few LGBT people feel the love and compassion position of the Church is nothing more than PR.  There is nothing that supports that statement by actual actions.

Over the years, one thing that I have noticed with unfailing consistence.  When I tell people that I am gay and I used to be Mormon, no one has EVER asked me why I left the Church.  

Exactly.  Thank you for just coming out and saying it.  The problem, from the pro-SSM crowd, isn't that the church is sending 'mixed messages', it's that it doesn't accept SSM.  Full stop, nothing else to say.  

You have provided a perfect example of what Elder Callister was talking about.

[Calm]

49 minutes ago, ttribe said:

If that is what he meant to say, then he should have actually said that.

We can say that for probably half of what comes out of people’s mouths and fingers, I am guessing. 

[Fether]

5 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

From the Salt Lake Tribune:
https://www.sltrib.com/opinion/commentary/2021/06/11/dave-winslow-lds-church/

The essay focuses on how the church simultaneously preaches love and tolerance and condemns love and tolerance. The author suggests that this mixed messaging may play well to older, more conservative members but risks alienating younger members. 

“One example of far too many: The Oct. 1, 2020 church newsroom statement on Conversion Therapy and Canada Bill C-6, states, ‘The Church hopes that those who experience same-sex attraction and gender dysphoria find love, compassion and understanding from family members, Church leaders and members, and professional counsellors. As disciples of Jesus Christ, we condemn any mistreatment or unkindness toward LGBTQ persons in any form.’

“However, the May 28, 2021, Church News article by Elder Tad R. Callister states, ‘He (Satan) disguises his plan of attack with alluring labels such as ‘pro-choice’ for abortion, ‘love and compassion’ for endorsement of same-sex marriage, and ‘environmental emergency’ for promotion of a zero-growth population agenda.’

“Either ‘love and compassion’ towards the LGBTQ+ is good discipleship or part of Satan’s evil plan. The contradiction rivals that of the ‘I’m a Mormon’ campaign, becoming a victory for Satan. God is not the author of confusion or flip-flopping doctrines and policies. Yet this message inconsistency occurs regularly.”

I definitely have seen how this kind of disconnect affects younger members. Some young members I know have said they pray every night that Heavenly Father will open the hearts of church leaders. Other young members I know have simply walked away from the church. 

Food for thought. 

I am definitely feeling the pains of a transition period in the church. I don’t know that the church will ever say “God is ok with SSM” (and yes, I do believe they have the right and authority to dictate this).

I think what is happening is the church is doing the best they can with being in the world but not of it.

What I do see is many members needing to reform their ideas about the LGBTQ community and how to live the principles they profess to believe in. particularly some of the older generation and those Saints that are also staunch conservatives that have the “us vs them” mentality. I have seen so many disheartening FB posts from my politically active Latter-day Saint friends attacking the LGBTQ community during this pride month.

But frankly, I have seen more love and understanding toward the LGBTQ community than not. I am conservative, fairly orthodox in my belief, and live in UT and have about 1000+ friends, most in UT. I would expect my  friends list is ripe full of homophobia and transphobia. But that isn’t the case. Most aren’t saying anything, but dozens of Saints in my friendliest are supporting the LGBTQ Only really 2 of them are antagonistic toward it. I made a post the other day about supporting the LGBTQ community and didn’t get any flak for it, only positive reactions.

I don’t expect, think, or necessarily want to the church to go far enough as to saying SSM is in line with God’s commandments, but we are heading in the right direction right now.

…Oh… and I agree in principle with a lot  of what Tad R Callister wrote… but his message really only speaks well with conservatives in the USA, not meant for a platform seen by a worldwide church… also, he isn’t a general authority anymore so why are his words making it to the top of the church?

Edited June 14, 2021 by Fether

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, JustAnAustralian said:

We'd need the 70 to get wiped out too. D&C 107:26 allow for the 15 to be absent. But other than that, yes, given we've repeatedly been told this is the last dispensation, a loss of priesthood authority would be a downer.

Maybe. While the quorum is equal in authority I don’t think that means interchangeable and I have not seen anything suggesting that the Seventy can ordain new apostles. If one apostle survives they could rebuild the Quorum. Without that I think you would need to have translated and resurrected beings help out.

[Fether]

6 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Maybe. While the quorum is equal in authority I don’t think that means interchangeable and I have not seen anything suggesting that the Seventy can ordain new apostles. If one apostle survives they could rebuild the Quorum. Without that I think you would need to have translated and resurrected beings help out.

I bet they have a system set in place that all the 70 know of in the case of a complete wiping out of the Q15. 
 

I can’t imagine the church hasn’t prepared itself for such a situation.

[Jane_Doe]

6 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

From the Salt Lake Tribune:
https://www.sltrib.com/opinion/commentary/2021/06/11/dave-winslow-lds-church/

The essay focuses on how the church simultaneously preaches love and tolerance and condemns love and tolerance. The author suggests that this mixed messaging may play well to older, more conservative members but risks alienating younger members. 

“One example of far too many: The Oct. 1, 2020 church newsroom statement on Conversion Therapy and Canada Bill C-6, states, ‘The Church hopes that those who experience same-sex attraction and gender dysphoria find love, compassion and understanding from family members, Church leaders and members, and professional counsellors. As disciples of Jesus Christ, we condemn any mistreatment or unkindness toward LGBTQ persons in any form.’

The fundamental issue here is that there's two definitions of love being used by many parties.  One is affection and caring and reaching out, even while disagreeing with some major life choices.  The other definition requires "if you love me, then you'll automatically be totally celebrating all of my life choices.  If you don't, then you must not really love me.".  

I personally find the first one to be a healthier definition of love, because it respects the autonomy of all parties.  

The second one...  doesn't and if more of a hostage situation.  

To be blunt, I know lots of folks whom I care for very very deeply, but I also need to acknowledge that they (in my eyes) make some majorly bad life choices.  Me acknowledging that disagreement isn't me not loving you, it's me also having values/beliefs.     I still love them and am here & vise versa.    I'm going to acknowledge your beliefs/values & life choices, but I also deserve to have my beliefs/values & life choices equally acknowledged & respected.    And all of that applies both ways (I have friends that also passionately disagree with me & my choices).

[let’s roll]

3 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

Then he’s doing a poor job of communicating that. Again, that’s the problem. 

Jesus was often told people didn’t understand what He was saying.  Those with ears to hear figured it out.  

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Exactly.  Thank you for just coming out and saying it.  The problem, from the pro-SSM crowd, isn't that the church is sending 'mixed messages', it's that it doesn't accept SSM.  Full stop, nothing else to say.  

You have provided a perfect example of what Elder Callister was talking about.

I’d say the issue for the church (just depending on how you want to look at it) is that 1 in 6 Gen Z identify as LBGTQ…. Per the article a study (found here: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0191886920306668?via%3Dihub ) says that 13% of BYU students don’t identify as strictly heterosexual.

There is real tension when something as Christlike as “love and compassion” can be used to undermine the church’s position. So on the one hand you have a church that is anti SSM and anti same sex civil unions that also has taught people the Christlike qualities of Love and Compassion.  On the other hand you have more and more church members deciding (no matter what people like Elder Callister say) that excluding Gay people from the sacrament of marriage is the opposite of love and compassion. (It was my wife’s biggest issue in leaving the church.) For the upcoming generation it’s going to be more and more of an issue. 
 

I guess someone needs to update the tools of satan thread to include love and compassion. 

[let’s roll]

3 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

It’s just funny that he’s calling the very words the church used an alluring label used by Satan. This just isn’t that difficult to understand. 

Tithing.  Jesus blessed some who paid it and condemned others for doing the same.  If you understand why, I think you’ll find the answer to the dilema you see here.

[carbon dioxide]

6 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

From the Salt Lake Tribune:
https://www.sltrib.com/opinion/commentary/2021/06/11/dave-winslow-lds-church/

The essay focuses on how the church simultaneously preaches love and tolerance and condemns love and tolerance. The author suggests that this mixed messaging may play well to older, more conservative members but risks alienating younger members. 

“One example of far too many: The Oct. 1, 2020 church newsroom statement on Conversion Therapy and Canada Bill C-6, states, ‘The Church hopes that those who experience same-sex attraction and gender dysphoria find love, compassion and understanding from family members, Church leaders and members, and professional counsellors. As disciples of Jesus Christ, we condemn any mistreatment or unkindness toward LGBTQ persons in any form.’

“However, the May 28, 2021, Church News article by Elder Tad R. Callister states, ‘He (Satan) disguises his plan of attack with alluring labels such as ‘pro-choice’ for abortion, ‘love and compassion’ for endorsement of same-sex marriage, and ‘environmental emergency’ for promotion of a zero-growth population agenda.’

“Either ‘love and compassion’ towards the LGBTQ+ is good discipleship or part of Satan’s evil plan. The contradiction rivals that of the ‘I’m a Mormon’ campaign, becoming a victory for Satan. God is not the author of confusion or flip-flopping doctrines and policies. Yet this message inconsistency occurs regularly.”

I definitely have seen how this kind of disconnect affects younger members. Some young members I know have said they pray every night that Heavenly Father will open the hearts of church leaders. Other young members I know have simply walked away from the church. 

Food for thought. 

I don't see a problem.  Lets take it out of the LGBT direction to a less personal one like gambling.  We can have love and compassion for those who are addicted to gambling while not showing love and compassion for gambling itself.  This is true for all issues regarding sins.  As weak, fallible people we need to help each other through their troubles.  Life is hard enough, we should not compound a person's problems or trials by adding more weight to their backs to carry by harsh judgement, ridicule, or scorn.  However that does not mean we are to surrender right and wrong for the sake of not offending someone.  We do not surrender core positions for the sake of acceptance.  We should show love and compassion to those who choose to use their agency in a manner that is contrary to the gospel.  

[secondclasscitizen]

3 hours ago, Fether said:

 

What I do see is many members needing to reform their ideas about the LGBTQ community and how to live the principles they profess to believe in. particularly some of the older generation and those Saints that are also staunch conservatives that have the “us vs them” mentality. I have seen so many disheartening FB posts from my politically active Latter-day Saint friends attacking the LGBTQ community during this pride month.

I’m seeing a lot of this on fb as well. Oddly enough just within my extended family we have a couple kids who I’m wagering  come out in a couple years.  Get this from reading their fb posts and seeing who their friends are. Gonna be some surprises esp from their parents. Until  then the ones affected get to see the true colors of some of their relatives. 

Edited June 14, 2021 by secondclasscitizen

[Fether]

2 hours ago, secondclasscitizen said:

I’m seeing a lot of this on fb as well. Oddly enough just within my extended family we have a couple kids who I’m wagering  come out in a couple years.  Get this from reading their fb posts and seeing who their friends are. Gonna be some surprises esp from their parents. Until  then the ones affected get to see the true colors of some of their relatives. 

My mom posted on FB announcing herself to be an ally of the LGBTQ along with declaring she still loves the gospel. My grandmother promptly unfriended my mother afterwards xD. Things were quickly fixed and life went on as normal, but it was funny 

[Teancum]

14 hours ago, teddyaware said:

If the Church is true and the Book of Mormon’s prophecies are true — and I believe they are — the restored Church of Jesus Christ and the kingdom of God on earth are going to marvelously succeed far beyond any doubter’s imagination. It will be a total and complete victory for God and his saints, and the most ignominious defeat imaginable for those opposed to Christ and his Zion.

It is not true and the BoM is not true either though it does have some worthy teachings.

[Teancum]

14 hours ago, ttribe said:

Do you talk like this in real life?  I mean, that's A LOT of dramatic flair in a single run-on sentence.

Teddy is projecting Samuel the Lamanite.  His posts are all the same and sort of have that crazy prophet on the wall type tone.

[Teancum]

12 hours ago, CV75 said:

I think the rest of their disconnect is a matter of faith and discipleship.

Faith is always used as the fallback when facts and rational reasoning goes against your faith position.  

[Teancum]

11 hours ago, bluebell said:

Exactly.  Thank you for just coming out and saying it.  The problem, from the pro-SSM crowd, isn't that the church is sending 'mixed messages', it's that it doesn't accept SSM.  Full stop, nothing else to say.  

You have provided a perfect example of what Elder Callister was talking about.

Then don't pretend you love and have compassion towards those with SSM issues.