If jospeh smith was here today

[pcarthew]

Up front I just want to say, I have read every bit of anti literature and hate speech on Joseph Smith (and of the church for matter). That has been balanced by I what read and I have read as much as humanly possible of inspired church literature.  My feelings have never changed on Joseph.  As a young 18 yo I gained a pure testimony of him as I listened to the missionary teach my now wife, then my girlfriend the discussions.  During that experience in a way that I cannot articulate what power entered my heart about him being a prophet.  I served in a senior leadership role in the church and a thought that constantly entertained my mind was I wonder what Joseph would say if he was here now,  I wonder how he would fell about all the temples dedicated and be built.  I wonder how he would feel about his prophecies coming to pass about temples  covering  the earth.  He (Joseph) never built a chapel only temples. 

What do you think he might say if he had 15 mins at the next general conference.  I think he would weep, glory God and the son then tell us how much he loved us and to keep pressing forward.  I think he would as President Nelson would and leave a with his promised blessings.

Edited May 30, 2021 by pcarthew

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, pcarthew said:

Up front I just want to say, I have read every bit of anti literature and hate speech on Joseph Smith (and of the church for matter).

Hyperbole?

[pcarthew]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Hyperbole?

No not at all, I guess I am making the point that I am not interested in having a discussion about the virtues of Joseph smith, other that my position is that he is a prophet and in that frame, I wonder what he would think of the church today.

[Hamba Tuhan]

Interestingly, I was sitting in sacrament meeting this afternoon, and I could see the early apostles right at home in our meeting. I suspect the Prophet Joseph would feel the same way ... and rejoice over all those things you identified.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, pcarthew said:

No not at all, I guess I am making the point that I am not interested in having a discussion about the virtues of Joseph smith, other that my position is that he is a prophet and in that frame, I wonder what he would think of the church today.

It is not hyperbole you have read every thing anti ever written about Joseph Smith? Including mentions in obscure 19th century newspapers? Every tract ever printed? I am saying it is probably impossible. Most likely some of the “every” was lost to the ages.

[JustAnAustralian]

6 hours ago, pcarthew said:

What do you think he might say if he had 15 mins at the next general conference.

I'm not sure he'd be able to keep to 15 minutes.

[pcarthew]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

It is not hyperbole you have read every thing anti ever written about Joseph Smith? Including mentions in obscure 19th century newspapers? Every tract ever printed? I am saying it is probably impossible. Most likely some of the “every” was lost to the ages.

I should have said "available" to me? I profusely apologise to using words that would indicate anything other that the truth.

[JLHPROF]

8 hours ago, pcarthew said:

Up front I just want to say, I have read every bit of anti literature and hate speech on Joseph Smith (and of the church for matter). That has been balanced by I what read and I have read as much as humanly possible of inspired church literature.  My feelings have never changed on Joseph.  As a young 18 yo I gained a pure testimony of him as I listened to the missionary teach my now wife, then my girlfriend the discussions.  During that experience in a way that I cannot articulate what power entered my heart about him being a prophet.  I served in a senior leadership role in the church and a thought that constantly entertained my mind was I wonder what Joseph would say if he was here now,  I wonder how he would fell about all the temples dedicated and be built.  I wonder how he would feel about his prophecies coming to pass about temples  covering  the earth.  He (Joseph) never built a chapel only temples. 

What do you think he might say if he had 15 mins at the next general conference.  I think he would weep, glory God and the son then tell us how much he loved us and to keep pressing forward.  I think he would as President Nelson would and leave a with his promised blessings.

He'd be excommunicated.  And he probably wouldn't care.

[JLHPROF]

8 hours ago, pcarthew said:

  I wonder how he would fell about all the temples dedicated and be built.  I wonder how he would feel about his prophecies coming to pass about temples  covering  the earth.  He (Joseph) never built a chapel only temples.

Joseph understood the true purpose of the temple.  Every community he envisioned was based around it.

[Hamba Tuhan]

3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

He'd be excommunicated.  And he probably wouldn't care.

Nonsense.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, pcarthew said:

I should have said "available" to me? I profusely apologise to using words that would indicate anything other that the truth.

Please don’t think I am offended. I was just being a pedantic jerk and having fun with it. It wasn’t a deceptive comment.

[Fether]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

He'd be excommunicated.  And he probably wouldn't care.

I never understood this sentiment. It seems extremely short sighted.

If JSjr was around today, he would be very comfortable, mostly because he has been seeing how everything has progressed and has seen, from the spirit world, how the gospel has continued to progress and how mistakes he and others who initiated the restoration were corrected in later dispensations.

Joseph Smith is physically dead, but he is still around witnessing the restoration of the gospel. 
 

Now, if the question was “what if we transported 1840 Joseph Smith to today, then maybe there would be a different answer.

If 1840 Joseph Smith came today and was upset with what he saw, it would not affect me, nor should it affect anyone. This is not the church of Joseph Smith. The goal of the church isn’t to align its teachings as closely as we can to the ideals of Joseph Smith. We are aligning with God and God did not reveal everything there is to reveal to Joseph Smith. Additionally, there are issues in our day that were not on Joseph’s mind in 1840.

You must have one of the flowing assumptions to believe there would be problems if Joseph showed up today:

- There is no spirit world and the POS is false as is all other teachings of the church. Therefore, The only Joseph to bring today would be the dead 1940 version. If Joseph Smith was in the spirit world, why would we not bring him to our imaginary scenario instead of the 1940 version?

- The Joseph version of the church is closest to the truth and ever since he died, God stopped talking to man and we have been trying to get closer to Joseph’s vision. 

- The church today is doing something you dont like so you believe there is some amount of apostasy happening and all the early Prophets would agree with you.

- Joseph would believe he would have more authority than the current prophet. This is simply not true. The modern day prophet is more important than dead prophets. Authority doesn’t get watered down with every new prophet.

Edited May 30, 2021 by Fether

[secondclasscitizen]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

He'd be excommunicated.  And he probably wouldn't care.

To be fair they would have to educate him first. 
1. no beer drinking. Ever. It is now a commandment even though the wow as delivered to him personally doesn’t say that. Also no cigar and pipe smoking. Ever. If he does- no temple. 
2. no home teaching or ministering by yourself to talk fathers into handing over their teenage girls or even their wife for marriage in exchange for exaltation..also it is a crime to marry more than one woman so no more law breaking. It was against the law back then and it still is except we obey it nowadays. 
3. The church isn’t in charge of a theocracy anymore. We don’t make our own laws and burn down news businesses because they print embarrassing truths. The salt lake trib cannot just be torched one night by a deputized mob. 
4. council of fifty dead on arrival. He isn’t gonna be the king of the world and even in Utah no one is gonna put up with the church dictating every move both at church and in the community. 
 

anyway yea they would have to give him a chance to at least be educated can’t just go around excommunicating people. 

I think he would be disappointed at how weak our leadership is. Wearing masks and closing the chapels and temples? He would have had us stand up to the govt for sure. 

Edited May 30, 2021 by secondclasscitizen
Typo

[Chum]

56 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I was just being a pedantic jerk

My mom would tell me to get my PJ on and I would and then she'd be mad at me. Childhood was confusing.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

He'd be excommunicated.  And he probably wouldn't care.

Wow JL! Pretty funny. 

[Scott Lloyd]

8 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Wow JL! Pretty funny. 

Pretty silly. 

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, Fether said:

I never understood this sentiment. It seems extremely short sighted.

If JSjr was around today, he would be very comfortable, mostly because he has been seeing how everything has progressed and has seen, from the spirit world, how the gospel has continued to progress and how mistakes he and others who initiated the restoration were corrected in later dispensations.

Joseph Smith is physically dead, but he is still around witnessing the restoration of the gospel. 
 

Now, if the question was “what if we transported 1840 Joseph Smith to today, then maybe there would be a different answer.

If 1840 Joseph Smith came today and was upset with what he saw, it would not affect me, nor should it affect anyone. This is not the church of Joseph Smith. The goal of the church isn’t to align its teachings as closely as we can to the ideals of Joseph Smith. We are aligning with God and God did not reveal everything there is to reveal to Joseph Smith. Additionally, there are issues in our day that were not on Joseph’s mind in 1840.

You must have one of the flowing assumptions to believe there would be problems if Joseph showed up today:

- There is no spirit world and the POS is false as is all other teachings of the church. Therefore, The only Joseph to bring today would be the dead 1940 version. If Joseph Smith was in the spirit world, why would we not bring him to our imaginary scenario instead of the 1940 version?

- The Joseph version of the church is closest to the truth and ever since he died, God stopped talking to man and we have been trying to get closer to Joseph’s vision. 

- The church today is doing something you dont like so you believe there is some amount of apostasy happening and all the early Prophets would agree with you.

- Joseph would believe he would have more authority than the current prophet. This is simply not true. The modern day prophet is more important than dead prophets. Authority doesn’t get watered down with every new prophet.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. Fanciful suppositions about Joseph not recognizing or approving of the Church today ignore the probability that he has carried forth an ongoing role in the Restoration and has been fully in touch with the progress and development of the Kingdom on both this and the other side of the veil. 

Edited May 30, 2021 by Scott Lloyd

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I agree wholeheartedly with this. Fanciful suppositions about Joseph not recognizing it approving of the Church today ignore the probability that he has carried forth an ongoing role in the Restoration and has been fully in touch with the progress and development of the Kingdom on both this and the other side of the veil. 

If you mean he's watched the course of the Church since his martyrdom and had some influence on it I agree wholeheartedly.  And his part is not finished.

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, Fether said:

Joseph would believe he would have more authority than the current prophet. This is simply not true. The modern day prophet is more important than dead prophets.

Oh I guarantee he has more authority than the current prophet.  More than any subsequent prophet.  Some of those prophets realized that.

Quote

how the gospel has continued to progress and how mistakes he and others who initiated the restoration were corrected in later dispensations.

 that's funny.

Except not really .  It's just sad that you believe that.

Edited May 30, 2021 by JLHPROF

[strappinglad]

He would be the presiding dispensational authority , no?

[smac97]

On 5/30/2021 at 6:53 AM, JLHPROF said:

He'd be excommunicated.  And he probably wouldn't care.

He wouldn't (be excommunicated).  And he would (care).  

First: “I will give you a key that will never rust, if you will stay with the majority of the Twelve Apostles, and the records of the Church, you will never be led astray.”  (Quoted in Young Woman’s Journal, Dec. 1906, p. 543; see also Ensign, June 1994, p. 15.)

Second: A sizable number of dissenters were excommunicated during the Kirtland Era (see here, starting on page 10).  The dissension appears to have originated in "temporal" matters (predominantly the failing of the Kirtland Safety Society).  However, "temporal" and "spiritual" dissent appear to bleed into each other, not unlike the "political"- and/or "social justice"-flavored dissent that seems to be coming from folks like John Dehlin and Kate Kelly.  

From the above link:

Quote

 

Thomas B. Marsh wrote to fellow apostle Wilford Woodruff:

It seems that [Warren] Parrish, J[ohn]. F. Boynton, Luke Johnson, Joseph Coe, and some others, united together for the overthrow of the church. President [Joseph] Smith, and his company, returned [to Kirtland], on, or about the 10th of December [1837]; soon after which this dissenting band, openly, and publicly, renounced the church of Christ, of Latter Day Saints, and claimed themselves to be the old standard; called themselves the church of Christ, excluded that of Saints, and set at naught Br[other]. Joseph [smith], and the whole church, denounced them as heretics.

During the week of 24-30 December 1837, twenty-eight members, including Martin Harris, were cut off from the church or excluded (excommunicated) by the High Council of Kirtland. It is not known if any of these church members were present at this meeting. According to John Smith, in a letter to his son, George A. Smith:

The spiritual condition at this time is gloomy also. I called the High Council together last week and laid before them the case of dissenters; 28 persons were, upon mature discussion, cut off from the Church; the leaders were Cyrus Smalling, Joseph Coe, Martin Harris, Luke S. Johnson[,] John R Boynton and W[arren]. W. Parrish. We have cut off between 40 and 50 from the Church since you left.

On 7 January 1838, Joseph Smith received a revelation for Edward Partridge instructing: "[L]et my people be aware of [dissenters] among them, lest the enemy have power over them; Awake my shepherds and warn my people! for behold the wolf cometh to destroy them,—receive him not."

 

Joseph Smith publicly denounced as "heretics" and excommunicated a large number of dissenters who had "openly, and publicly, renounced the church of Christ, of Latter Day Saints, and claimed themselves to be the old standard."

Third: Joseph Smith founded the Church, so it would seem pretty unlikely that he would be indifferent or ambivalent about membership within it.  It is, after all, the repository of the restored Priesthood.  Consider:

• Mosiah 18:17 - "And they were called the church of God, or the church of Christ, from that time forward. And it came to pass that whosoever was baptized by the power and authority of God was added to his church."
• Mosiah 26:22 - "For behold, this is my church; whosoever is baptized shall be baptized unto repentance. And whomsoever ye receive shall believe in my name; and him will I freely forgive."
• Alma 1:19 - "But it came to pass that whosoever did not belong to the church of God began to persecute those that did belong to the church of God, and had taken upon them the name of Christ."
• Alma 4:4 - "And they began to establish the church more fully; yea, and many were baptized in the waters of Sidon and were joined to the church of God."
• Alma 46:14 - "For thus were all the true believers of Christ, who belonged to the church of God, called by those who did not belong to the church."
• 3 Nephi 18:5 - "And when the multitude had eaten and were filled, he said unto the disciples: Behold there shall one be ordained among you, and to him will I give power that he shall break bread and bless it and give it unto the people of my church, unto all those who shall believe and be baptized in my name."
• 3 Nephi 18:16 - "And as I have prayed among you even so shall ye pray in my church, among my people who do repent and are baptized in my name."
• 3 Nephi 21:22 - "But if they will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them, and they shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob, unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance."
• 3 Nephi 26:21 - "And they who were baptized in the name of Jesus were called the church of Christ."
• Moroni 6:5-6 - "And the church did meet together oft, to fast and to pray, and to speak one with another concerning the welfare of their souls.  And they did meet together oft to partake of bread and wine, in remembrance of the Lord Jesus."
• D&C 1:30 - "And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually."
• D&C 21:1, 3-5 - "Behold, there shall be a record kept among you; and in it thou shalt be called a seer, a translator, a prophet, an apostle of Jesus Christ, an elder of the church through the will of God the Father, and the grace of your Lord Jesus Christ ... Which church was organized and established in the year of your Lord eighteen hundred and thirty, in the fourth month, and on the sixth day of the month which is called April.  Which church was organized and established in the year of your Lord eighteen hundred and thirty, in the fourth month, and on the sixth day of the month which is called April.  Wherefore, meaning the church, thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me; For his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith."
• D&C 41:3 - "And by the prayer of your faith ye shall receive my law, that ye may know how to govern my church and have all things right before me."
• D&C 69:2-3 - "Wherefore, I, the Lord, will that my servant, John Whitmer, should go with my servant Oliver Cowdery; And also that he shall continue in writing and making a history of all the important things which he shall observe and know concerning my church."
• D&C 115:1, 3-4 - "Verily thus saith the Lord unto you, my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and also my servant Sidney Rigdon, and also my servant Hyrum Smith ... and unto all the elders and people of my Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, scattered abroad in all the world; For thus shall my church be called in the last days, even The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."

Joseph Smith gave his life over to the restoration of and building up of the Church.  Kinda hard to square that with the odd notion that "he probably wouldn't care" if he lost his membership in it.

Fourth: The Church has a fairly clear mandate as to disciplinary matters:

• D&C 50:8-9 - "But the hypocrites shall be detected and shall be cut off, either in life or in death, even as I will; and wo unto them who are cut off from my church, for the same are overcome of the world. Wherefore, let every man beware lest he do that which is not in truth and righteousness before me."
• D&C 64:34-37 - "Behold, the Lord requireth the heart and a willing mind; and the willing and obedient shall eat the good of the land of Zion in these last days. And the rebellious shall be cut off out of the land of Zion, and shall be sent away, and shall not inherit the land. For, verily I say that the rebellious are not of the blood of Ephraim, wherefore they shall be plucked out. Behold, I, the Lord, have made my church in these last days like unto a judge sitting on a hill, or in a high place, to judge the nations."
• D&C 104:6-10 - "For I, the Lord, am not to be mocked in these things. And all this that the innocent among you may not be condemned with the unjust; and that the guilty among you may not escape; because I, the Lord, have promised unto you a crown of glory at my right hand. Therefore, inasmuch as you are found transgressors, you cannot escape my wrath in your lives. Inasmuch as ye are cut off for transgression, ye cannot escape the buffetings of Satan until the day of redemption. And I now give unto you power from this very hour, that if any man among you, of the order, is found a transgressor and repenteth not of the evil, that ye shall deliver him over unto the buffetings of Satan; and he shall not have power to bring evil upon you."
• D&C 63:60-64 - "Behold, I am Alpha and Omega, even Jesus Christ. Wherefore, let all men beware how they take my name in their lips. For behold, verily I say, that many there be who are under this condemnation, who use the name of the Lord, and use it in vain, having not authority. Wherefore, let the church repent of their sins, and I, the Lord, will own them; otherwise they shall be cut off. Remember that that which cometh from above is sacred, and must be spoken with care, and by constraint of the Spirit; and in this there is no condemnation, and ye receive the Spirit through prayer; wherefore, without this there remaineth condemnation."
• D&C 133:63 - "And upon them that hearken not to the voice of the Lord shall be fulfilled that which was written by the prophet Moses, that they should be cut off from among the people."
• D&C 85:11 - "And they who are of the High Priesthood, whose names are not found written in the book of the law, or that are found to have apostatized, or to have been cut off from the church, as well as the lesser priesthood, or the members, in that day shall not find an inheritance among the saints of the Most High."
• D&C 1:14 - "And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people."
• D&C 134:10 - "We believe that all religious societies have a right to deal with their members for disorderly conduct, according to the rules and regulations of such societies; provided that such dealings be for fellowship and good standing; but we do not believe that any religious society has authority to try men on the right of property or life, to take from them this world’s goods, or to put them in jeopardy of either life or limb, or to inflict any physical punishment upon them. They can only excommunicate them from their society, and withdraw from them their fellowship."
• Alma 1:24 - "The hearts of many were hardened, and their names were blotted out."
• 3 Ne. 18:31 - "If he repent not he shall not be numbered among my people."
• D&C 42:28 - "He that sinneth and repenteth not shall be cast out."
• D&C 41:5 - "He that receiveth my law and doeth it, the same is my disciple; and he that saith he receiveth it and doeth it not, the same is not my disciple, and shall be cast out from among you."
• Helaman 12:25 - "And I would that all men might be saved. But we read that in the great and last day there are some who shall be cast out, yea, who shall be cast off from the presence of the Lord."

Fifth: I really love the Church.  It's a wonderful organization.  Not perfect, but it's doing a lot of good.  And more than that, it is the repository of the priesthood and all those things that come with it (saving ordinances, revelation, offices, governance, etc.).

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited June 1, 2021 by smac97

[CA Steve]

I suppose it depends on which version of Joseph Smith you are hypothesizing is speaking at conference. One who has no memory of what has happened here on earth between now and his death or one who has seen the events of the last 170ish years? Maybe it is a version of Smith who learned after he died that Zoroastrianism is actually the one true religion? (For a great short story by the LDS author Steven Peck on just this topic, see A Short Stay in Hell )

I suspect if it were the version who had no knowledge of the past 170ish years, the first thing he might say at conference is: Wow! we are still here! Followed by, "My this is a great and spacious building." 😉

Edited May 30, 2021 by CA Steve

[AtlanticMike]

4 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

He'd be excommunicated.  And he probably wouldn't care.

There's a couple ways this statement can be taken and when I read it, I think you mean if Joseph was here today, he'd be kicken arse and taken names, he wouldn't care what anyone else thought of him. Or did I read what you meant totally wrong?

[JLHPROF]

35 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Fifth: I really love the Church.  It's a wonderful organization.  Not perfect, but it's doing a lot of good.  And more than that, it is the repository of the priesthood and all those things that come with it (saving ordinances, revelation, offices, governance, etc.).

Rep point for the amount of work you put into that post.  I agree with this part.

And for the record I also really love the Church too having been born and raised here. I was showing my children my primary graduation certificate the other week and talking to them about my time in primary.

I could throw out a few quotes and scriptures of my own but it's not necessary.  It is far better in the Church than anywhere else.  God and his Son will right the many issues eventually.  And I'm positive Joseph will be very happy with the end result.

[Robert F. Smith]

15 hours ago, pcarthew said:

...................... Joseph Smith............. I wonder how he would feel about his prophecies coming to pass about temples  covering  the earth.  He (Joseph) never built a chapel only temples. ........................

We already know how some non-LDS oberservers felt about him.  In 1844 Josiah Quincy visited with Joseph in Nauvoo.  Later he had this to say:

Quote

        It is by no means improbable that some future text-book, for the use of generations yet unborn, will contain a question something like this: What historical American of the nineteenth century has exerted the most powerful influence upon the destinies of his countrymen?  And it is by no means impossible that the answer to that interrogatory may be thus written: Joseph Smith, the Mormon prophet.  And the reply, absurd as it doubtless seems to most men now living, may be an obvious commonplace to their descendants.  History deals in surprises and paradoxes quite as startling as this.  The man who established a religion in this age of free debate, who was and is to day accepted by hundreds of thousands as a direct emissary from the Most High – such a rare human being is not to be disposed of by pelting his memory with unsavory epithets.  Fanatic, impostor, charlatan he may have been; but these hard names furnish no solution to the problem he presents to us.  Fanatics and impostors are living and dying every day, and their memory is buried with them; but the wonderful influence which this founder of a religion exerted and still exerts throws him into relief before us, not as a rogue to be criminated, but as a phenomenon to be explained.  Quincy, Figures of the Past (1882/1883/1926), 376; B. H. Roberts, A Comprehensive History of the Church, II:349-350.  Only forty-three days after Quincy’s May 1844 visit to Nauvoo, Joseph was dead.

Prof. Harold Bloom of Yale said of Joseph:

Quote

I myself can think of not another American, except for Emerson and Whitman, who so moves and alters my own imagination.  So self-educated was he that he transcends Emerson and Whitman in my imaginative response, and takes his place with the great figures of our fiction, since at moments he appears larger than life, in the mode of a Shakespearean character.  So rich and so varied a personality, so vital a spark of divinity, is almost beyond the limits of the human, as we normally construe those limits.  Bloom, American Religion (1992), 127.

As Joseph Smith himself said on May 12, 1844, specifically placing himself as a key element in fulfillment of Daniel 2:31-45:  

Quote

 I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.

In the process of doing so, as Prof. Jan Shipps has noted, Joseph played many roles, particularly in renewal and replication of the biblical past: He was not only the modern translator, revelator, seer, and prophet, but he also took on the offices of Moses the deliverer, Joshua the commander, Solomon the king, Isaiah the prophet, Eli the high priest, Peter the church founder, and Paul the missionary to the Gentiles. Shipps, Mormonism: The Story of a New Religious Tradition (1985), 37-39.