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The relationship between adam and eve before the fall


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On 4/23/2021 at 10:33 AM, Teancum said:

Moses did not write it. Moses is likely another fictional character.  But I always did like the Ten Commandments with Charlton Heston.

Surely you understand the difference between fiction and parable?  Between fiction and allegory?  

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7 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Even taking your apparent perspective, that is a pretty naive view.

It would not be in there if it were not already in the culture.   So you think women's equalty was in complete perfection until that verse was "published" to the few that could read it?

I would disagree, even taking your perspective

No Misogyny and poor treatment  of woman existed before the verse and was in the culture.  But this verse certainly entrenches it even in many conservative Bible believing religions today. Without it maybe entrenched believers would be less apt to be patriarchal and suppressive of women's rights.  

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7 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Surely you understand the difference between fiction and parable?  Between fiction and allegory?  

Of course.  Do you believe Moses was a real person?  Does the LDS church teach he was?

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1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Do you believe Moses was a real person? 

I know you were asking someone else, but I do not believe Moses was a real person and for that matter I believe that most of the OT prophets were fictional until maybe David onward.

 

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Does the LDS church teach he [Moses] was?

Absolutely, they are foundational to the authority claims of the Mormon Church. Without historical figures like Moses, Abraham, Jacob, Adam and others, there is no lineage by which the priesthood was passed down. Additionally the historicity of the BoM rest on, among other things, the historicity of events depicted in the OT, like the tower of Babel, Adam in the garden of Eden, the Exodus, the flood, and so on. For an excellent treatment of this very subject from a LDS perspective see Authoring the Old Testament: Genesis -Deuteronomy by David Bokovoy.

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3 hours ago, Teancum said:

Of course.  Do you believe Moses was a real person?  Does the LDS church teach he was?

None of those are relevant to what the spirit teaches me. And the spirit teaches me those alleged facts are unknowable and irrelevant to what we are to learn from the stories 

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1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

None of those are relevant to what the spirit teaches me. And the spirit teaches me those alleged facts are unknowable and irrelevant to what we are to learn from the stories 

Great!  I feel the same about The Lord of the Rings.  Yet I don't give 10% of my income to the Tolkein estate nor attend the Church of the Hobbits.

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On 4/23/2021 at 8:39 AM, TheTanakas said:

I was reading the following in the Bible today as part of my devotional.

Gen 3:16  - Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy 
conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be 
to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee".
 

What was the marriage relationship like between Adam and Eve before it changed in
the Fall?  I couldn't find anything relevant in this Old Testament Study manual.

Pete

 

Sounds like she was already having babies before the fall, but now after the fall the pain of having them would be increased.
Multiplying zero would still be zero.
Before the Fall she had no desire for her husband and she did not have follow him. 
😉 😉

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15 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Great!  I feel the same about The Lord of the Rings.  Yet I don't give 10% of my income to the Tolkein estate nor attend the Church of the Hobbits.

You should. Pipeweed Wednesdays are wild.

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Those interested in delving deeper than tweet level discussions could look at things like Nibley's "Patriarchy and Matriarchy" and "Before Adam" in the first volume of the Collected Works of Hugh Nibley, Old Testament and Related Studies. Among other things Eve is companion "meet" for man, not a "help mate" provided for man.  The Hebrew implies "strength or power equal to."

Also his "Abraham's Temple Drama" in volume 17, Eloquent Witness, pointing out that the stories are not histories, but dramas to be performed.  They are symbolic temple stories, told to communicate essentials about reality.  Neither history, nor flat allegory. 

Plus Jolene Edmund's Rockwood, "The Redemption of Eve" in Sisters in Spirit, Beecher and Anderson, eds.   Rockwood's notes that the curse on Eve is descriptive, rather than proscriptive.  That is, it is a description of conditions in a fallen world, not a God ordained rule for male behavior, justifying dominion for all time. 

Incidentally, both Nibley and Barker point out that Man's dominion is rather more clearly in the Hebrew a stewardship for which we are accountable.

Jeff Bradshaw's petite little tome, In God's Image and Likeness, weighing in at over 1000 pages has much useful to consider on the distinctive insights of LDS accounts.  Alas, it does not condense into post-size bits, but must be searched diligently to provide benefit.

Margaret Barker's Temple Theology: An Introduction.  Explaining temple and ritual language.

Her "Paradise Lost", http://www.margaretbarker.com/Papers/ParadiseLost.pdf

Her "Belonging in the Temple" here http://www.margaretbarker.com/Papers/BelongingintheTemple.pdf

Joseph Campbell's discussion of the Eve story in The Power of Myth, particularly page 48:

Moyers: Why are women the ones held responsible for the downfall?

Campbell: "They represent life. Man doesn't enter into life except by the woman, so it is woman who brings us into this world of pairs of opposites and suffering."

Compare Campbell's brilliant insight with 2 Nephi 2 and our Book of Moses accounts, (both of which emerged from a very young Joseph Smith, rather than a mature, world class scholar of comparative mythology). Our accounts offer a radical departure from the misogynistic readings of Judaeo-Christian Culture.  Coming through those traditions,  our own culture awash outside preconceptions, we are often slow to appreciate the distinctiveness of what we have.  I did not appreciate how strikingly different our accounts are until I read a book called Eve: the History of an Idea.  What we have is a wholly different train of thought, that, if boarded, offers a much more beautiful set of views for the journey.  A set of new temple films were notable for how clearly they expressed the wonderous burden and glory of Eve's noble choice.

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

 

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2 hours ago, Teancum said:

Great!  I feel the same about The Lord of the Rings.  Yet I don't give 10% of my income to the Tolkein estate nor attend the Church of the Hobbits.

Your values, not mine

Irrelevant 

Shall we talk about your favorite ice cream flavor? Why should I care?

Why do you not get this?

You left the church, leave it alone

I don't spend my precious life bashing Catholics. What a waste!

Edited by mfbukowski
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2 hours ago, Kevin Christensen said:

Those interested in delving deeper than tweet level discussions could look at things like Nibley's "Patriarchy and Matriarchy" and "Before Adam" in the first volume of the Collected Works of Hugh Nibley, Old Testament and Related Studies. Among other things Eve is companion "meet" for man, not a "help mate" provided for man.  The Hebrew implies "strength or power equal to."

Also his "Abraham's Temple Drama" in volume 17, Eloquent Witness, pointing out that the stories are not histories, but dramas to be performed.  They are symbolic temple stories, told to communicate essentials about reality.  Neither history, nor flat allegory. 

Plus Jolene Edmund's Rockwood, "The Redemption of Eve" in Sisters in Spirit, Beecher and Anderson, eds.   Rockwood's notes that the curse on Eve is descriptive, rather than proscriptive.  That is, it is a description of conditions in a fallen world, not a God ordained rule for male behavior, justifying dominion for all time. 

Incidentally, both Nibley and Barker point out that Man's dominion is rather more clearly in the Hebrew a stewardship for which we are accountable.

Jeff Bradshaw's petite little tome, In God's Image and Likeness, weighing in at over 1000 pages has much useful to consider on the distinctive insights of LDS accounts.  Alas, it does not condense into post-size bits, but must be searched diligently to provide benefit.

Margaret Barker's Temple Theology: An Introduction.  Explaining temple and ritual language.

Her "Paradise Lost", http://www.margaretbarker.com/Papers/ParadiseLost.pdf

Her "Belonging in the Temple" here http://www.margaretbarker.com/Papers/BelongingintheTemple.pdf

Joseph Campbell's discussion of the Eve story in The Power of Myth, particularly page 48:

Moyers: Why are women the ones held responsible for the downfall?

Campbell: "They represent life. Man doesn't enter into life except by the woman, so it is woman who brings us into this world of pairs of opposites and suffering."

Compare Campbell's brilliant insight with 2 Nephi 2 and our Book of Moses accounts, (both of which emerged from a very young Joseph Smith, rather than a mature, world class scholar of comparative mythology). Our accounts offer a radical departure from the misogynistic readings of Judaeo-Christian Culture.  Coming through those traditions,  our own culture awash outside preconceptions, we are often slow to appreciate the distinctiveness of what we have.  I did not appreciate how strikingly different our accounts are until I read a book called Eve: the History of an Idea.  What we have is a wholly different train of thought, that, if boarded, offers a much more beautiful set of views for the journey.  A set of new temple films were notable for how clearly they expressed the wonderous burden and glory of Eve's noble choice.

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

 

And yet again I repeat that before the 1990 changes in the presentation, it was announced in every temple session that the presentation was "strictly figurative insofar as the man and woman are concerned."

....IN THE ENDOWMENT PRESENTATION ITSELF. 

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5 hours ago, Teancum said:

Great!  I feel the same about The Lord of the Rings.  Yet I don't give 10% of my income to the Tolkein estate nor attend the Church of the Hobbits.

I hope you burn in Mordor!

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22 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

I'm here for you, bro, if you ever need a punching bag 🤗

OOO- golly

Not quite sure how to take THAT one!

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20 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

St. Augustine, easily the most influential and important Church Father of the early Church, argued that an allegorical reading of the Genesis creation was perfectly valid.

I never knew that!

My Augustinian padres never taught us that one in High School!  ;)

 

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On 4/27/2021 at 7:11 AM, Teancum said:

No Misogyny and poor treatment  of woman existed before the verse and was in the culture.  But this verse certainly entrenches it even in many conservative Bible believing religions today. Without it maybe entrenched believers would be less apt to be patriarchal and suppressive of women's rights.  

Big thumbs up on this one. 

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On 4/27/2021 at 4:40 PM, mfbukowski said:

Your values, not mine

Irrelevant 

Shall we talk about your favorite ice cream flavor? Why should I care?

Why do you not get this?

You left the church, leave it alone

I don't spend my precious life bashing Catholics. What a waste!

I am still a member.

Who knows.  Maybe I will be active again someday. I am open.

I do get this. My point illustrates your position quite well. 

Leave the church alone?  Well talking on a message board is not exactly harassing the church.  But what you think is a waste and what I or others think is a waste may differ-thank you very much.

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On 4/23/2021 at 9:39 AM, TheTanakas said:

I was reading the following in the Bible today as part of my devotional.

Gen 3:16  - Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy 
conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be 
to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee".
 

What was the marriage relationship like between Adam and Eve before it changed in
the Fall?  I couldn't find anything relevant in this Old Testament Study manual.

Pete

 

Most of the Book of Genises, including the creation myth, is metaphor.  Adam & Eve did not exist, not as an actual man and woman living in some mythical Eden in Missouri 6,000 years ago.  Yes there was a first Homosapien male and a first homosapien female, but they did not know each other, were never married nor bore children named Cain nor Able. Our Adam and Eve, lived 100’s of thousands of years ago on the plains of Africa. Because of this we also know that there was never a fall.  Science & truth baby

image.png.945ac0bade74cde9751a8ae46a242a28.png

Edited by Fair Dinkum
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2 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Most of the Book of Genises, including the creation myth, is metaphor.  Adam & Eve did not exist, not as an actual man and woman living in some mythical Eden in Missouri 6,000 years ago.  Yes there was a first Homosapien male and a first homosapien female, but they did not know each other, were never married nor bore children named Cain nor Able. Our Adam and Eve, lived 100’s of thousands of years ago on the plains of Africa. Because of this we also know that there was never a fall.  Science & truth baby

image.png.945ac0bade74cde9751a8ae46a242a28.png

:nea:nah...

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13 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Most of the Book of Genises, including the creation myth, is metaphor.  Adam & Eve did not exist, not as an actual man and woman living in some mythical Eden in Missouri 6,000 years ago.  Yes there was a first Homosapien male and a first homosapien female, but they did not know each other, were never married nor bore children named Cain nor Able. Our Adam and Eve, lived 100’s of thousands of years ago on the plains of Africa. Because of this we also know that there was never a fall.  Science & truth baby

image.png.945ac0bade74cde9751a8ae46a242a28.png

Wait.....how did the species survive?

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On 4/23/2021 at 10:39 AM, TheTanakas said:

I was reading the following in the Bible today as part of my devotional.

Gen 3:16  - Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy 
conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be 
to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee".
 

What was the marriage relationship like between Adam and Eve before it changed in
the Fall?  I couldn't find anything relevant in this Old Testament Study manual.

Pete

 

As I understand it, Adam and Eve had completed their mortal probation elsewhere, and came to our world to engender spirit children and flesh bodies for them and to prepare the Fall.

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