Religious decline among white working class.

[poptart]

Curious if any of you are seeing this in your wards/churches.  

White working-class adults are leaving our churches. What can we do to keep them? | America Magazine

Why Is the Church Losing White Working Class Americans? | RELEVANT (relevantmagazine.com)

[Scott Lloyd]

7 minutes ago, poptart said:

Curious if any of you are seeing this in your wards/churches.  

White working-class adults are leaving our churches. What can we do to keep them? | America Magazine

Why Is the Church Losing White Working Class Americans? | RELEVANT (relevantmagazine.com)

I can’t get the second link to load. But I’m guessing any response you might get here would be purely anecdotal and, hence, of little or no probative value. 

[poptart]

2 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I can’t get the second link to load. But I’m guessing any response you might get here would be purely anecdotal and, hence, of little or no probative value. 

Yes and no  Was talking to an LDS friend who helped me out, he's retired but most of his professional life was that of a crime advocate and helping displaced people.  If it wasn't for him i'd have never been able to connect with DI like I did years ago.  Something we talked about the other day, anymore he's given up on sending people to most churches for help, they either don't have the resources or people just don't seem to care.  I talk to relatives in Hawaii, the churches there do a ton and well, even now most locals there are quite religious, my aunt never misses her churches Sunday live stream.  Here?  Different story.  

Just my experience, outside of a few good Catholic parishes the only Christian group that ever helped me and anyone else in need?  The LDS church.  Not saying no one else does.

 

[Robert F. Smith]

20 hours ago, poptart said:

Curious if any of you are seeing this in your wards/churches.  

White working-class adults are leaving our churches. What can we do to keep them? | America Magazine

Why Is the Church Losing White Working Class Americans? | RELEVANT (relevantmagazine.com)

The same non-religion malaise which has hit Europe so hard is also infecting America, and it was to be expected.  The increasing number of "nones" is likely a result of the death of a relevant god in mainstream christianity.  A distant, impersonal god who cannot even overcome the logical and scientific strictures of Enlightenment thought is not much of a god.

I don't see this so much in Utah County, Utah, nor in my own ward, but it is surely a major barrier to conversion for many.  What this may mean for younger LDS members remains to be seen.

[poptart]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The same non-religion malaise which has hit Europe so hard is also infecting America, and it was to be expected.  The increasing number of "nones" is likely a result of the death of a relevant god in mainstream christianity.  A distant, impersonal god who cannot even overcome the logical and scientific strictures of Enlightenment thought is not much of a god.

I don't see this so much in Utah County, Utah, nor in my own ward, but it is surely a major barrier to conversion for many.  What this may mean for younger LDS members remains to be seen.

I disagree with that but in the spirit of Ecumenical friendship I'll say no more.

I will agree, approve and hope that things in Utah continue as they are.  I learned that Utah supposedly still has the highest conversion rates, I'm not surprised at all.  That's partially why I became curious about Joseph Smith, from what I've read and heard from people I know in the Midwest, things haven't change much as far as Christianity goes, still the same old backstabbing good old boy politics.  You guys will be kind to new neighbors, treat their children well and offer wholesome things that just aren't available to most families in this country anymore.  I hope your youth continues to understand just how fortunate they are, if they slacken on that, they will suffer for it like everyone else here is now, at least among WASPs.  I think anyway.

[Teancum]

23 hours ago, poptart said:

Curious if any of you are seeing this in your wards/churches.  

White working-class adults are leaving our churches. What can we do to keep them? | America Magazine

Why Is the Church Losing White Working Class Americans? | RELEVANT (relevantmagazine.com)

It is a wonderful thing!

[poptart]

15 minutes ago, Teancum said:

It is a wonderful thing!

How so?

[Teancum]

32 minutes ago, poptart said:

How so?

Society in general is realizing   and understanding  that critical thinking and the scientific method are the way to go and realizing religion and faith are problematic ways to understand truth.  Time to move on and it seems we are,  Hooray!

Edited April 11, 2021 by Teancum

[halconero]

33 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Society in general is realizing   and understanding  that critical thinking and the scientific method are the way to go and realizing religion and faith are problematic ways to understand truth.  Time to move on and it seems we are,  Hooray!

I’m not convinced religion is going away under its functional definition.

[poptart]

40 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Society in general is realizing   and understanding  that critical thinking and the scientific method are the way to go and realizing religion and faith are problematic ways to understand truth.  Time to move on and it seems we are,  Hooray!

I look at the institution/estate that Christianity for what it is.  I like what an LDS friend of mine had to say, let good to good.  Shame politics has to ruin this, what can you do...

6 minutes ago, halconero said:

I’m not convinced religion is going away under its functional definition.

Christianity is going nowhere, it'll go through some rough times but it's staying put.  As it is the Catholic Church is still building/buying out hospitals and running schools.  Parish I went to for a bit had one of the most affordable k-8 schools I had ever seen, tuition for the year was like, 2k.  That was 4 years ago.  Unless people in this country are willing to come together and stop backstabbing each other the church will always have a corner on education and healthcare, just as always.  It was the church that started the first hospitals in Europe when everyone else was too busy smelling bad and killing each other to care.

Same with the LDS church, you guys do so much good that cities and states count on you.  Also your Luaus, that alone makes me hope you keep growing.  

Edited April 11, 2021 by poptart

[Steve Thompson]

Something to consider:

"The study by Harvard economists Robert Barro and Rachel McCleary found that across countries, societies that are more religious have greater economic performance--and interestingly this relationship was driven by religious beliefs in heaven and hell, not just religious behavior such as church attendance.  And Shariff and Rhemtulla's study found that crime rates are lower in countries with stronger beliefs in hell (rather than heaven).  Such studies are notoriously tricky to interpret because of possible confounding factors and historical contingency--even if many are statistically controlled for.  At the level of national comparisons, therefore, the jury is perhaps still out.  But what we can say is that there is at least some evidence that weaker religious beliefs, and weaker beliefs in supernatural punishment in particular are associated with negative social outcomes.... "

Dominic Johnson, God is Watching You How the Fear of God Makes us Human (New York, Oxford Univ. Press, 2016) p.218

[carbon dioxide]

I read quite often from the non-religious types that this is all great.  A more secular, less religious society.  They assume this will lead to less conflict and more peace.  However there are many reasons to believe that will not happen at all.  For example "Religion is losing ground around the world. Political extremism might be filling the void" https://www.yahoo.com/news/religion-losing-ground-around-world-212303296.html suggest that religious extremism might give way to secular political extremism. 

"The decline of religion in much of the world has not reduced people’s need to believe in something, because, “Human beings, by their very nature, are searching for meaning, belonging, coherent structure,” Hamid told me. And that won’t change. “Nobody can survive long without some ultimate loyalty,” he added.

The danger now is that religions will be replaced by secular political fanaticism. That, combined with Facebook, Twitter and social-media companies that profit from disseminating extremist views, is further polarizing our societies."

What is pulling the US and Europe apart is not religion but politics.  Religion could but used as a tool in this political polarization but it is not required.   People are tribal by nature. They will always gather in groups of like minded people.  At least with religion there usually is some ultimate authority that one is accountable to and most of the time that places guard rails on behavior.  What is the ultimate authority if for a secularist?  Government? What if they hate government or see government as the enemy?  I personally see the slow secularization of the west not leading to more peace but rather more conflict.  In Christianity one is commanded to love their enemies.  In secularism, your enemy is your enemy.  You don't have to love them but hate them all you want and run them over if they get in the way.

 

 

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, Teancum said:

Society in general is realizing   and understanding  that critical thinking and the scientific method are the way to go and realizing religion and faith are problematic ways to understand truth.  Time to move on and it seems we are,  Hooray!

I wish I believed that were true.

[LoudmouthMormon]

Looking through LDS Library app these days is a constantly changing wonderland of amazement.

(If the image is too small, there are entries for Self-Reliance, Abuse, Addiction, Adoption, Death, Disabilities, Divorce, Education, Employment, English Learning, Family, Finances, Grief, Hope, Media Safety, Mental Health, Physical Health, Pr0nography, Pregnant and Single, Preparadness, Same-sex Attraction, Single Parent Families, Suicide, and Transgender.)

Edited April 12, 2021 by LoudmouthMormon

[california boy]

5 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

"Religion is losing ground around the world. Political extremism might be filling the void" https://www.yahoo.com/news/religion-losing-ground-around-world-212303296.html suggest that religious extremism might give way to secular political extremism. 

 

It is religion itself that has caused political extremism. Just one example of this shows up in a poll conducted last month, that found about 40% of white evangelical Protestants said they likely would not get vaccinated, compared to about 25% of all Americans, 28% of white mainline Protestants and 27% of Protestants who are not white. When did taking a vaccine become a religious belief?  Who is amplifying this message and making it a religious issue?  If your political views don't align with a certain political party, where does one go to worship God?  A recent conference talk addressed this issue and the thread about that talk quickly turned political. Heck, a significant number of every thread on this board often turns political.  Why does that happen, when this site is a religious board, not a political board?  These days, people can not separate religion from politics.  

 

 

[Robert F. Smith]

37 minutes ago, california boy said:

It is religion itself that has caused political extremism. Just one example of this shows up in a poll conducted last month, that found about 40% of white evangelical Protestants said they likely would not get vaccinated, compared to about 25% of all Americans, 28% of white mainline Protestants and 27% of Protestants who are not white. When did taking a vaccine become a religious belief?  Who is amplifying this message and making it a religious issue?  If your political views don't align with a certain political party, where does one go to worship God?  A recent conference talk addressed this issue and the thread about that talk quickly turned political. Heck, a significant number of every thread on this board often turns political.  Why does that happen, when this site is a religious board, not a political board?  These days, people can not separate religion from politics. 

Well said.

[InCognitus]

55 minutes ago, california boy said:

When did taking a vaccine become a religious belief?

Sadly, I'm aware of several Protestant Christians that I know (Pentecostal, I think) who said (a few months ago) that they will NOT be getting the vaccination because they fear it has something to do with the mark of the beast (and they are serious about that).  At least one of these people is from outside the United States (I know all of them through the internet).  I haven't talked to them about the vaccinations recently, so I need to find out if they've changed their minds at all.  I hope they have.

Edited April 12, 2021 by InCognitus

[JustAnAustralian]

47 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

Sadly, I'm aware of several Protestant Christians that I know (Pentecostal, I think) who said (a few months ago) that they will NOT be getting the vaccination because they fear it has something to do with the mark of the beast (and they are serious about that).

That's really interesting if the Pentecostal thing is correct. The second person to get the Covid vaccination in Australia was our Pentecostal prime minister.

Edited April 12, 2021 by JustAnAustralian

[InCognitus]

11 minutes ago, JustAnAustralian said:

That's really interesting if the Pentecostal thing is correct. The second person to get the Covid vaccination in Australia was our Pentecostal prime minister.

I don't know if the people I've talked to have gotten their opinions on the vaccines from their local congregations or by participating in social media (etc.) on the internet. I suspect it is the latter.  The one person that I know that is for sure Pentecostal and does not live in the United States is in the UK.  I only pointed that out because it doesn't seem to be directly related to United States political issues.  There is something broader going on there.  

I have noticed that some religious leaders are showing an example by getting vaccinated, and I see that as a good thing.

Edited April 12, 2021 by InCognitus

[JustAnAustralian]

18 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

I only pointed that out because it doesn't seem to be directly related to United States political issues.  There is something broader going on there.  

Yep. Some research in Australia a few years ago https://researchmgt.monash.edu/ws/portalfiles/portal/286126604/272368099_oa.pdf found (keeping in mind that those that filled in the survey were self selected, and opinions self reported):

Quote

... compared to groups with positive vaccine attitudes, groups with negative attitudes were more informed, engaged and independent health consumers, with greater adherence to complementary medicine, but lower belief in holistic health. They had higher distrust in the mainstream healthcare system, higher conspiracist ideation, and were more likely to vote for minor political parties. They were more likely to be male, religious, have children, and self-report better health

 

[Meadowchik]

5 hours ago, InCognitus said:

Sadly, I'm aware of several Protestant Christians that I know (Pentecostal, I think) who said (a few months ago) that they will NOT be getting the vaccination because they fear it has something to do with the mark of the beast (and they are serious about that).  At least one of these people is from outside the United States (I know all of them through the internet).  I haven't talked to them about the vaccinations recently, so I need to find out if they've changed their minds at all.  I hope they have.

Unfortunately I have seen this as well, one of my former roommates from BYU has been evangelizing this content (anti-vaxx, Mark of the Beast conspiracies--if you don't want to click) for a while now. I am not sure of the denomination, though. In any case it is extremely disturbing.

[secondclasscitizen]

18 hours ago, poptart said:

 Also your Luaus, that alone makes me hope you keep growing.  

I can’t remember the last time any stake  or ward I have been in has had one. Anyway have not really been to one since maybe the 80s and we did have them often. I’m still living in mormonville so maybe it’s just not a thing anymore. 

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, secondclasscitizen said:

I can’t remember the last time any stake  or ward I have been in has had one. Anyway have not really been to one since maybe the 80s and we did have them often. I’m still living in mormonville so maybe it’s just not a thing anymore. 

I remember a ward party that was a Luau in the 80's, back in the good ole' days!

[teddyaware]

10 hours ago, InCognitus said:

Sadly, I'm aware of several Protestant Christians that I know (Pentecostal, I think) who said (a few months ago) that they will NOT be getting the vaccination because they fear it has something to do with the mark of the beast (and they are serious about that).  At least one of these people is from outside the United States (I know all of them through the internet).  I haven't talked to them about the vaccinations recently, so I need to find out if they've changed their minds at all.  I hope they have.

Could it be the reason why some don’t feel the pressure to get vaccinated is because there’s a better than 99% COVID survival rate for those who come down with the disease, and that the recovery rate is very high for those who are otherwise healthy and not suffering from comorbidities? Combine this with the fact that some prominent virologists are now saying 2/3 of the population of the US has already contracted the virus, the vast majority asymptomatically.

And in consideration of the fact that I’m strong, healthy, well-nourished, athletic and wear a mask, it seems to me I’ve got a much better chance of getting severely injured or killed every time I take my car out on the road and zoom down the highway at 70 mph. And yet there’s even a surefire “vaccine” to prevent road accidents — stay home in lockdown mode and don’t drive, get a job where you can work from home, and move next to a cluster of stores that are within easy walking distance. 

And what happens when herd immunity is reached? Are those who’ve been vaccinated going to insist everyone else be vaccinated anyway because they’re not going to think it’s fair the some escaped the disease without having to get vaccinate?

Meanwhile large portions of the country have been economically devastated becausre so many in the low risk age category are paralyzed with fear. They’d rather let the United States economy go down the tubes, and allow their children live in servitude and impoverishment because they allowed fear mongers to get them to jump out of their skins with panic.

I live 20 miles from Manhattan and the city is a depressing virtual ghost town with many who are going to die impoverished because the COVID lockdown “cure” has proved to be much more harmful, in the long run, than the disease itself. And now it’s almost certain worldwide economic collapse is is going to destroy the livelihoods and take the lives of many more people than COVID ever could because too many were unwilling to face the pandemic with courage and a determination to save the future. I can assure you that the early Mormon pioneers wouldn’t have passively allowed themselves to go down without a faithful and courageous fight for the future generations. This is what happens when nations give up on God. Clinging to life, no matter how miserable, becomes the all consuming objective. 

[Teancum]

23 hours ago, halconero said:

I’m not convinced religion is going away under its functional definition.

Not for a long  time but it is headed towards the death it deserves.