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Let's try this again. President oaks nailed it imo.


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1 minute ago, juliann said:

Is that because of that White Horse prophecy that just won’t die? How does your friend think some Mormons can prop up a constitution? What does that even mean? Will they win debates?  Rewrite it? Organize a militia? Get so many members in the government and judicial system they can control laws? 

A common fable is that brave militias will maintain constitutional law while governments collapse everywhere. The common version in our Church involves Zion maintaining constitutional law in Utah and/or Missouri while all around it collapses into anarchy.

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1 minute ago, juliann said:

Is that because of that White Horse prophecy that just won’t die? How does your friend think some Mormons can prop up a constitution? What does that even mean? Will they win debates?  Rewrite it? Organize a militia? Get so many members in the government and judicial system they can control laws? 

I doubt her thoughts stem from the White Horse prophecy, since she's not at all interesting or involved in those kinds of discussions.  I guess there's always a chance though.  I think she is believes that, as we get closer to the second coming, our liberties will become less and less secure and that members of the church (and others who also value it) will have to step up (in whatever ways they can, legal, activism, etc.) and work to protect it.  

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5 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I doubt her thoughts stem from the White Horse prophecy, since she's not at all interesting or involved in those kinds of discussions.  I guess there's always a chance though.  I think she is believes that, as we get closer to the second coming, our liberties will become less and less secure and that members of the church (and others who also value it) will have to step up (in whatever ways they can, legal, activism, etc.) and work to protect it.  

Is there something other than the White Horse Prophecy that those things would be rooted in?

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43 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Is there something other than the White Horse Prophecy that those things would be rooted in?

Yes.

Edit:  See Ensign, June 1976, "What do we know about the purported statement of Joseph Smith that the Constitution would hang by a thread and that the elders would save it?"

See also FAIR:  The White Horse Prophecy, particularly here:

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Brigham Young and Orson Hyde both clearly state that the Constitution will be in grave danger of being destroyed. If the constitution is to be preserved it will be because the "Elders" of the Church will step forward and provide the support that will help to preserve the Constitution. The Elders of the Church will always be in support of the constitution, and will not ever be in a position to replace or supplant the constitutional principles in that document. Note that this belief has nothing to do with the so-called "White Horse" prophecy, but in fact preceded the date claimed for that prophecy.

The concern for the Constitution of the United States of America is a real and valid concern of the authorities and membership of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Because it was included as part of the White Horse does not give the White Horse any sort of credibility. It is an entirely separate concern.

 

Edited by InCognitus
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3 hours ago, bluebell said:

... I have a close friend who thinks that he will likely be our next prophet ...

Is it OK if I admit that when I read that, my first thought was, "Really?  Your friend thinks he'll be the next prophet? :huh: :unsure: :unknw:  Well, anything's possible, I suppose, though she [Bluebell] strikes me as someone with a live-and-let-live attitude, I've never really known her to be someone who's all that closely associated with crackpots who are on the fringes of the Church of Jesus Christ ..." :D :rofl: :D 

Okay. [Le Sigh!]  We now return you to your regularly-scheduled, on-topic programming. ;) :D 

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By demographics President Oaks is likely to be the next prophet. An 88 year old is likely to outlive a 96 year old. After that the most likely is Elder Holland. Elder Uchtdorf has a chance if he outlives Elder Holland by just a bit. After that is Elder Bednar who statistically has the best shot at a longer Presidency of those currently in the Quorum. Bednar is currently at least a decade younger than everyone ahead of him in seniority. Assuming everyone lives and dies in age order Elder Stevenson is next followed by Elder Soares.

Note: This assumes they all die in age order which will probably not happen so the likelihood of this being accurate is low. By all appearances Harold B. Lee should have had a long tenure and President Kimball was not likely to be prophet.

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Just now, The Nehor said:

By demographics President Oaks is likely to be the next prophet. An 88 year old is likely to outlive a 96 year old. After that the most likely is Elder Holland. Elder Uchtdorf has a chance if he outlives Elder Holland by just a bit. After that is Elder Bednar who statistically has the best shot at a longer Presidency of those currently in the Quorum. Bednar is currently at least a decade younger than everyone ahead of him in seniority. Assuming everyone lives and dies in age order Elder Stevenson is next followed by Elder Soares.

Note: This assumes they all die in age order which will probably not happen so the likelihood of this being accurate is low. By all appearances Harold B. Lee should have had a long tenure and President Kimball was not likely to be prophet.

and what is going one with Elder Renlund? He looked thin!!! We know he had covid but yikes!!!!!!!

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1 hour ago, ttribe said:

Is there something other than the White Horse Prophecy that those things would be rooted in?

History?

Countries and their governments only last so long before they start to become unstable and they either fall or their government does and they have to change it to something different.  We see this especially in the Book of Mormon, where the followers of Christ had to rally and fight to keep their liberty many times.  

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1 hour ago, InCognitus said:

I was asking if there was something other than White Horse; you pointed to White Horse.

6 minutes ago, bluebell said:

History?

Countries and their governments only last so long before they start to become unstable and they either fall or their government does and they have to change it to something different.  We see this especially in the Book of Mormon, where the followers of Christ had to rally and fight to keep their liberty many times.  

But, your comment on your friends' views on the future was very specific as to the members of the Church having a prominent role in sparing the country.  I'm just wondering, because I've never heard these kinds of comments/predictions from members where it wasn't rooted in White Horse, if even indirectly.

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5 minutes ago, ttribe said:

I was asking if there was something other than White Horse; you pointed to White Horse.

We're very good at picking and choosing what prophecies we'll believe.

I can think of numerous prophecies we ignore and others we are super focused on.

All seems a bit like selective hearing.

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21 minutes ago, bluebell said:

History?

Countries and their governments only last so long before they start to become unstable and they either fall or their government does and they have to change it to something different.  We see this especially in the Book of Mormon, where the followers of Christ had to rally and fight to keep their liberty many times.  

They say the average empire lasts around 250 year so we have about 5 left.

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1 minute ago, JLHPROF said:

We're very good at picking and choosing what prophecies we'll believe.

I can think of numerous prophecies we ignore and others we are super focused on.

All seems a bit like selective hearing.

My question is genuine, not rhetorical - Is there another prophecy about the members of the Church being integral to saving the U.S. as it falters?

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15 minutes ago, ttribe said:

But, your comment on your friends' views on the future was very specific as to the members of the Church having a prominent role in sparing the country.  

Like in BOM times?

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7 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

They say the average empire lasts around 250 year so we have about 5 left.

We are a lot like the Romans, believing that we are so strong and so awesome and so good that our country cannot fail.  We are really wrong.  Things do tend to destabilize after a couple hundred years in a lot of countries and we won't be the exception to the rule without divine help.

I don't say that as a fearmonger or in any kind of a "this will be the end of the country if my political party isn't in charge" way.  It's just the way that history usually goes down and there is no reason it won't continue to work that way in the future without supernatural intervention.

Separate us from God's interest in us and we will fall eventually.  Just like every other country or empire that used to exist.

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11 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Like in BOM times?

Okay.  I guess I can see that.

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4 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I would think it means the CHURCH requires the freedom to operate that we have under the US Constitution.
That's very different from the gospel existing.  The gospel exists with or without the legally constituted Church corporation.

And I really don't get the controversy.  The talk was perfectly fine.  It probably went too far for the globalists who dislike America.  And not far enough for the constitutionalists who think the document is literally the constitution of God's kingdom.
As a Conference talk it was gospel based, connecting Constitutional principles to the gospel.
All this fuss over basic stuff.

I think if it had been given Saturday before the global focus, it would have been somewhat less controversial.  It seems like many feel the earlier session was like turning on spotlights around the world and then this talk turned off these lights to just one on the US, focusing on the issues most important to the US.  While needed, timing might have been off in helping it reach out beyond US borders.

Added:  I think Rain expressed the issues with the talk very well...

Edited by Calm
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1 hour ago, ttribe said:

I was asking if there was something other than White Horse; you pointed to White Horse.

You didn't read the website content in the link or the quote.  The FAIR website article explains what is the "White Horse Prophecy", and what it is NOT.  The Ensign article and the FAIR website topic provided several other sources for the prophesies about the constitution hanging by a thread that are independent from the so called "White Horse Prophecy".  I quoted one relevant part of the FAIR article that said, "The concern for the Constitution of the United States of America is a real and valid concern of the authorities and membership of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Because it was included as part of the White Horse does not give the White Horse any sort of credibility. It is an entirely separate concern."  

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I see people on both sides of the spectrum praising the talk.  President Oaks did something right.

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31 minutes ago, Calm said:

I think if it had been given Saturday before the global focus, it would have been somewhat less controversial.  It seems like many feel the earlier session was like turning on spotlights around the world and then this talk turned off these lights to just one on the US, focusing on the issues most important to the US.  While needed, timing might have been off in helping it reach out beyond US borders.

Added:  I think Rain expressed the issues with the talk very well...

If you think discussion of the Constitution only has relevance to U.S. citizens, I think perhaps you didn’t pay very close attention to President Oaks’s talk. 

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3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

If you think discussion of the Constitution only has relevance to U.S. citizens, I think perhaps you didn’t pay very close attention to President Oaks’s talk. 

Nowhere in my comment did I state that.  In fact, since it was timing and not content I pointed to as influencing its ability to reach beyond US borders, the opposite is implied. 

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1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

If you think discussion of the Constitution only has relevance to U.S. citizens, I think perhaps you didn’t pay very close attention to President Oaks’s talk. 

What advice would you give to someone in Bolivia or Nigeria about the US Constitution?

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10 minutes ago, Duncan said:

What advice would you give to someone in Bolivia or Nigeria about the US Constitution?

“Don’t you wish you had this”?  
 

Not really advice...

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I hope when Oaks is President he tours many foreign countries and explains to them the greatness of the US Constitution and how much better the USA is than their countries.

I did like that Oaks addressed the Right wing pro Trump, Pro riot crowd of the church and their horrendous attacks on the capital and constitution.

Edited by 2BizE
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This quote from Elder Oaks talk really resonated with me.

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“the vital purpose of the entire Constitution. We are to be governed by law and not by individuals, and our loyalty is to the Constitution and its principles and processes, not to any officeholder.”

In light of what happened on Jan. 6th and the events that led up to that event, this talk is very timely.

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