Will Christ return in your lifetime?

[Ahab]

22 minutes ago, Calm said:

Huh?  The fireplace is not part of the fire and never is (one could even scoop up the burning wood with an appropriate shovel and move it elsewhere) unless something goes horribly wrong and it turns into a house fire while the food we eat, some of those molecules are used and stay in our cells, not just used in chemical reactions to release energy and get discarded.

How long do you think the food we eat stays in our cells and would you call that food "you" or just food in your cells?

[HappyJackWagon]

30 minutes ago, Calm said:

Can we take a little side trip to the topic?  We are taught that the resurrection of the just occurred at the time of Christ’s resurrection for those who died before he did and will occur at the time of the Second Coming for those who died afterwards?  Correct?  Or is it more the resurrection of the just is ongoing, given Peter and James at least died after Christ as well as Moroni and we teach they are resurrected, do we not?

If so, is Joseph Smith resurrected or not?  Because he could be a test case for whether or not the corpse is used as the starting point of the resurrected body since we know where his grave is.

It's a good question and I've heard very smart, faithful members teach both. Personally, I believe the first resurrection happened at Christ's resurrection. The 2nd will begin at the 2nd coming and will continue in stages and will therefore be an ongoing process. Hence the talk of "morn of the first resurrection" etc. I don't think there is any definitive statement about a resurrection ongoing since Christ's resurrection. I've always assumed that those who needed a physical body to perform a function who were not a part of the first resurrection, were translated to receive a perfected body.

But again, all these specifics to try to understand the literalness of it all gets bogged down quickly into questions that don't really matter.

[Calm]

10 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I think we get to keep all of that too, unless maybe we can get rid of it somehow like we can here.

I cannot imagine a perfect body that is over 100 excess pounds.  The excess weight inhibits range of movement at the very least even if we are perfected so we are not experiencing the additional wear and tear, pressure on internal organs, etc.  One of the requirements of a perfect body in my view is to be able to bend over and touch one’s toes.  I have other issues besides weight, but one of the biggest blessings I am looking forward to is enjoying being in my body again like I did as a kid when I could climb trees, do cartwheels, dance, grasp my hands behind my back and stretch.

Edited February 24, 2021 by Calm

[Calm]

 

11 minutes ago, Ahab said:

No, i have the upgraded versions of me, made from the same factory that made the old versions of me, which I call me.

Why are your current molecules better than the ones you used to have?

[Calm]

22 minutes ago, Ahab said:

How long do you think the food we eat stays in our cells and would you call that food "you" or just food in your cells?

At this point in my life, I am not even sure my physical body is ‘me’ rather than a temporary vehicle for my spirit.  I felt I was ‘me’ before puberty hit and altered how I moved, the car accident at 13 or 14 resulting in a permanent headache and ringing ears, pregnancy flaring my sleep disorder from slightly annoying to major screwing up my life.  Not much has worked as expected since then...except for maybe my hair, eyes, and skin...though in the past 5 years even my skin is acting up and suddenly I can’t eat strawberries without the itch from hell on my legs and hands.

Different cells last longer than others, so the molecules provided by food that are added to cellular structure (as opposed to being broken down for the purpose of energy) stay in our body for different lengths of time.

Do you see the calcium molecules in your bones that you got from drinking milk or eating calcium rich foods as a growing child “you” or “just passing through”?

Edited February 24, 2021 by Calm

[Ahab]

13 minutes ago, Calm said:

I cannot imagine a perfect body that is over 100 excess pounds.  The excess weight inhibits range of movement at the very least even if we are perfected so we are not experiencing the additional wear and tear, pressure on internal organs, etc.  One of the requirements of a perfect body in my view is to be able to bend over and touch one’s toes.  I have other issues besides weight, but one of the biggest blessings I am looking forward to is enjoying being in my body again like I did as a kid when I could climb trees, do cartwheels, dance, grasp my hands behind my back and stretch.

Now it sounds like we need to get into what it means to have "excess" weight.  Men with bodies that weigh 235 pounds can do some things that men who weigh 135 pounds can't do as well.  Think of Captain America. 

[Ahab]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

At this point in my life, I am not even sure my physical body is ‘me’ rather than a temporary vehicle for my spirit.

I think of you as your body combined with your spirit, rather than only your spirit.

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

 I felt I was ‘me’ before puberty hit and I changed into something very different.  Not much has worked as expected since then...except for maybe my hair, eyes, and skin...though in the past 5 years even my skin is acting up and suddenly I can’t eat strawberries without the itch from hell on my legs and hands.

Different cells last longer than others, so the molecules provided by food stay in our body for different lengths of time.

Do you see the calcium molecules in your bones that you got from drinking milk or eating calcium rich foods as a growing child “you” or “just passing through”?

Hmm.  So do you think of cow milk or cow meat as cow and how much cow do you think you had to eat before you became part cow?

[JLHPROF]

31 minutes ago, Calm said:

So if we were to open his grave, do you believe there would be his corpse there or not?

If Christ's resurrection is an accurate depiction there shouldn't be a corpse.  Although Christ had less impurities than the rest of us. 

[HappyJackWagon]

4 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

If Christ's resurrection is an accurate depiction there shouldn't be a corpse.  Although Christ had less impurities than the rest of us. 

And the resurrection was nearly immediate. There was no going back to find ashes or bone fragments, let alone molecules that may have been reintroduced to the environment.

[Ahab]

32 minutes ago, Calm said:

 

Why are your current molecules better than the ones you used to have?

I was referring to the upgrades to my body that I have experienced since my mortal birth, like more permanent teeth as upgrades to my baby teeth and cell regeneration after damaging parts of my body.  If I had been limited to only my original parts I would have a lot of tears and cuts that would not have "healed" to become the upgraded body I have now.  And yes, I know, it is still mortal, but someday I will get the upgrade to an immortal body, which will be even better than what I have now while still using me as myself.

[Ahab]

15 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

And the resurrection was nearly immediate. There was no going back to find ashes or bone fragments, let alone molecules that may have been reintroduced to the environment.

As mortals we all have body cells that reproduce themselves while the newest ones continue in us and the old ones die and separate from us.  So while our Lord was mortal he lost old body parts/cells including skin and hair that he had for about 33 years.

[Calm]

1 minute ago, JLHPROF said:

If Christ's resurrection is an accurate depiction there shouldn't be a corpse.  Although Christ had less impurities than the rest of us. 

I really should be asleep and I have cannabis in me (mostly CBD, micro dosing and avoiding THC except for a wee bit at bedtime, so not actually stoned, but definitely slowed...) on top of that, so my ability to dig out memories is rather low and not interested in researching now even if I seem unable to walk away from this conversation at the moment...so someone else is going to have to provide actual info that I feel I should know...

Is there anything in scripture that absolutely requires Christ’s resurrected body to be exactly the one that die similar to Lazarus being brought back to life rather than Christ dispersing his own corpse once he received his resurrected body?  We know his corpse was gone.  It makes sense when they see him later with the wounds still there that they would assume it is the identical body with intact molecules, etc, but his bodily processes had changed significantly already, so it couldn’t have been identical.  The question for me at this point is did he more or less ‘wake up’ and walked out after his body and spirit got to that point of the resurrection process or was the process something else?  Maybe his resurrected body slowly took shape while his mortal one experienced accelerated decomposition.  Nobody saw what happened in the tomb between his dead body being placed within and then no body being there, correct?  No references to seeing anyone but an angel or two, not Christ until he is seen in the Garden.  Maybe the stone was rolled aside not to let the resurrected Christ leave his tomb (after all he appears able to move through walls somehow), but simply to let others see his corpse was gone.  His resurrected body never needed to be in the grave logistically speaking as far as I can remember unless it was the same body.

The graves being open and the bodies coming forth...does that mean ground was disturbed and the bodies dug themselves out or were lifted out after the dirt and rocks were miraculously moved aside? Or is that more of a symbolic description of resurrection through the event involved resurrected beings showing up at the family home, etc.

Hope that makes sense as the words don’t come as easy at this point...I think I can finally put the iPad down and put the conversation on hold in my head...unless Ahab says something that sets off another insistent train of thought, lol.

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I was referring to the upgrades to my body that I have experienced since my mortal birth, like more permanent teeth as upgrades to my baby teeth and cell regeneration after damaging parts of my body.  If I had been limited to only my original parts I would have a lot of tears and cuts that would not have "healed" to become the upgraded body I have now.  And yes, I know, it is still mortal, but someday I will get the upgrade to an immortal body, which will be even better than what I have now while still using me as myself.

That is not what I mean.  If you were to look back at your body at 30 vs your body at whatever age you are now...why do you see the newer older version as inherently better than the older younger 30 year old one when it is highly likely you could move faster, were more flexible, in less pain, stronger immune system, etc. at 30 then now?

[Calm]

42 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Now it sounds like we need to get into what it means to have "excess" weight.  Men with bodies that weigh 235 pounds can do some things that men who weigh 135 pounds can't do as well.  Think of Captain America. 

Obesity, additional fat, not muscle.  Though there is a point where muscle becomes limiting (think muscle bound, which means enlarged and inflexible)

Edited February 24, 2021 by Calm

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

I really should be asleep and I have cannabis in me (mostly CBD, micro dosing and avoiding THC except for a wee bit at bedtime, so not actually stoned, but definitely slowed...) on top of that, so my ability to dig out memories is rather low and not interested in researching now even if I seem unable to walk away from this conversation at the moment...so someone else is going to have to provide actual info that I feel I should know...

Hmm.  Do you have enough cannabis in you to give you the munchies? I still remember what it felt like to have some cannabis in me.

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

Is there anything in scripture that absolutely requires Christ’s resurrected body to be exactly the one that die similar to Lazarus being brought back to life rather than Christ dispersing his own corpse once he received his resurrected body?  We know his corpse was gone.  

I think so, even though we could always argue about what our Lord meant when he said something.  The things he said about what it means to be resurrected, to have our body restored and reunited with our spirit.  He said restored, not replaced.

 

[Calm]

45 minutes ago, Ahab said:

think of you as your body combined with your spirit, rather than only your spirit.

But that is just an abstract concept of a person.  You don’t know what I look like, so if you create an image...that ain’t me.  Now you know a lot about my emotions and thoughts, so you might be able to imagine my personality decently.

[Ahab]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

That is not what I mean.  If you were to look back at your body at 30 vs your body at whatever age you are now...why do you see the newer older version as inherently better than the older younger 30 year old one when it is highly likely you could move faster, were more flexible, in less pain, stronger immune system, etc. at 30 then now?

Maybe it's just me, but I think my body looks better now than it did when it was in its 30's, although it looked pretty good then, I must say.  I like the streaks of silver and white in my hair now and my skin has what I call more character.  And even though, yes, I could move a bit faster when I was younger than I can now I can at least still get around without any or very much pain.  I'll be turning 60 in a few more weeks.  Maybe I will need to get a lot older to relate to what you are talking about.

 

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Maybe it's just me, but I think my body looks better now than it did when it was in its 30's, although it looked pretty good then, I must say.  I like the streaks of silver and white in my hair now and my skin has what I call more character.  And even though, yes, I could move a bit faster when I was younger than I can now I can at least still get around without any or very much pain.  I'll be turning 60 in a few more weeks.  Maybe I will need to get a lot older to relate to what you are talking about.

 

Just pick up some major chronic health issues quick.  I am 2 years older than you, but have been developing a nice batch of chronic disorders since at least ten when I noticed I was probably the only one awake in the neighborhood besides the fire station I could see in the distance (no one had lights on).  Then there was the car accident with nasty whiplash that was completely ignored at 13 or so.  Mom also think I got some skull fractures climbing out of my crib a few times, but even my allergies didn’t start until after puberty.  Besides chicken pox, I was the healthy one in the family.  You want health complications...pick up a sleep issue and it should show up relatively soon.  Body needs that deep sleep to repair and grow.

Edited February 24, 2021 by Calm

[Calm]

15 minutes ago, Ahab said:

you have enough cannabis in you to give you the munchies? I still remember what it felt like to have some cannabis in me.

Kills the appetite for me.  Lost 5 lbs this last month just laying in bed because I can’t be bothered to get something to eat some days.

[strappinglad]

May I suggest that there were a couple of million folks in Texas that wished they had had at least a couple of weeks of food and water and maybe a back up generator when the storm hit. If society ever is actually faced with needing a 2 year supply there will be riots and looting and death everywhere. We are instructed here to have a 72 hour kit available at all times. Wise counsel ! 

As for the resurrection, don't get hung up on time to rebuild a body, eye twinkling is pretty fast.  

I vaguely recall a story about a fellow who supposedly witnessed a resurrection. It went the rounds a few years back. Interesting details were relayed . Faith promoting rumor?? 

Edited February 24, 2021 by strappinglad

[Ahab]

19 minutes ago, Calm said:

But that is just an abstract concept of a person.  You don’t know what I look like, so if you create an image...that ain’t me.  Now you know a lot about my emotions and thoughts, so you might be able to imagine my personality decently.

My concept of you is based on my understanding of all I have seen you say.  That's about it.  Not much to go on but in some sense I suppose I can say I know you though not very well and I don't know what you look like.

[Ahab]

15 minutes ago, Calm said:

Just pick up some major chronic health issues quick.  

No thank you.  Doesn't sound like fun to me.

15 minutes ago, Calm said:

I am 2 years older than you, but have been developing a nice batch of chronic disorders since at least ten when I noticed I was probably the only one awake in the neighborhood besides the fire station I could see in the distance (no one had lights on).  Then there was the car accident with nasty whiplash that was completely ignored at 13 or so.  Mom also think I got some skull fractures climbing out of my crib a few times, but even my allergies didn’t start until after puberty.  Besides chicken pox, I was the healthy one in the family.  You want health complications...pick up a sleep issue and it should show up relatively soon.  Body needs that deep sleep to repair and grow.

Must be challenging to be you.  I am fine with me just being me while leaving everyone else to be whatever they are or can be.

[Ahab]

30 minutes ago, Calm said:

Kills the appetite for me.  Lost 5 lbs this last month just laying in bed because I can’t be bothered to get something to eat some days.

In my day we had something called Maui Waui that gave me a huge case of the munchies.  I don't know if that is still around but sounds to me like you need some better grade stuff.. some better quality cannabis.  With a need for it, of course.

[Ipod Touch]

On 2/22/2021 at 1:59 PM, Thinking said:

I personally haven't heard anybody make a claim like this in a long time, so I thought it was almost weird that this teacher would make that claim.

After my grandmother died I had an opportunity to read her patriarchal blessing.  She was promised that she would live to see the second coming.  I really really struggled with that.

[Stargazer]

4 hours ago, Ahab said:

So I would say that IF our scientific method of carbon dating is accurate and IF some people lived on this planet about 300,000 years ago, then they must have been some very evil people not to have been resurrected about 2000 years ago. Otherwise they would have been resurrected along with the righteous who lived before our Savior lived and died here and was then resurrected.

I was very startled to read this.

Regardless of carbon dating, you truly believe that if you dug up a grave of someone who lived before Christ's resurrection and their bones are still there, that this person was too evil to be of the resurrection of the just? There are several problems with this idea.

First, nobody can be resurrected until they are judged. Nobody can be judged before they have had the opportunity to hear the gospel, either in life or in the Spirit World, and then baptized, either physically or by proxy. Let's imagine a man who lived in 3000 BC on the island of Great Britain. Let's further imagine that he was a stone cutter who helped erect the first bluestones at Stonehenge. He lived an honorable life, and when he died his body was cremated and the remains buried in a barrow near the henge. What was his name? Nobody knows, and nobody can know until the Millennium when his name will be revealed to those carrying out the work of proxy baptisms for all those who died and no record exists of them. Maybe he's accepted the Gospel in the Spirit World already, and will eventually be exalted in the Celestial Kingdom, but he can't be resurrected until his ordinance work is performed. So there his charred bones still lie, now in an archaeologist's collection. And here's Ahab judging him as a malefactor.  

Second, whatever gives you the idea that the body you possess at the time of your death is the source of all the atoms in your resurrected body? Any scripture on that? As it turns out, there is none. How many babies have died in infancy? Dying before the age of accountability, wouldn't you say that they are automatically saved in the Celestial Kingdom? So, if a baby dies at age 3 months in 500 BC, and some archaeologist digs up her bones in 2014, this is evidence that she was a very evil person? She should have been resurrected, if she was worthy of the Celestial Kingdom, but there's a hitch, she only weighed 12 pounds when she died. Resurrectees get full-sized bodies, so where are all the extra atoms going to come from?  When the scriptures talk of restoration of one's body, you can't restore what wasn't there in the first place.

Third, what about all the atoms that were once in your body but are no longer there?  All my baby teeth now exist in various trash heaps scattered around Southern California. I want them back! Even more, every time I breathe, I expel carbon (now combined with oxygen) that used to be part of my body. Do I get all that back?  What about the 20 pounds of fat that I lost between Christmas and today? Do I get that back, too?  How about all those water molecules that I drank over the term of my 69 years, that are no longer with me?  Or does this only apply to the molecules that are part of my body when I die?

This whole idea of a literal atom by atom resurrection is foolish and simplistic. What gives anyone the idea that it isn't somehow actual resurrection unless all one's own atoms are restored? In my DNA might be an atom which might very well have once been part of one of my ancestors' bodies.  Do we have to get into a fight over who gets that atom?

You're going to say that Christ's body disappeared from his tomb when he was resurrected. But his body still bears the stigmata of his crucifixion. Does this mean that you get all your old scars, too? 

All I am trying to say here is that our resurrection restores the form of our body in its perfected state, not literally the same body we had in mortality. People born into mortality without limbs will be resurrected with limbs. People born simple will be resurrected as super-geniuses. And those exalted will be as God.