Red Heifer: Coming of the Messiah?

[Stargazer]

32 minutes ago, theplains said:

Joseph Smith's account is inaccurate.  The bow was a sign of God's covenant (Genesis 9:11-15), not of some future coming
or a token of famine, pestilence, or great distress among the nations. In addition, if I am not mistaken, the bow (the rainbow)
is never mentioned in the Book of Mormon, D&C, or Pearl of Great Price (or ever again in the Bible).  

Jim

Yep, the bow was a sign of God's covenant not to flood us out again.

As for what I quoted Joseph as saying, this was not an inaccurate retelling of the bow being a sign of the no-flood covenant.  This was a sign of a lack of a bow, meaning no rain anywhere for a year -- which would mean famine and great distress -- and he wasn't misquoting Genesis, he was prophesying of a future event.  I know you don't believe Joseph was a prophet, so there's no point in discussing the matter, is there?  Just look to the future for its fulfillment, and if it never happens, well then...

 

[CV75]

21 hours ago, SteveO said:

So as members of the church, how much significance do we place in something like this?

I think it is the significance of keeping up with the traditions of men vis a vis the restored gospel is in line with D&C 88: 78-81, “Teach ye diligently and my grace shall attend you, that you may be instructed more perfectly in theory, in principle, in doctrine, in the law of the gospel, in all things that pertain unto the kingdom of God, that are expedient for you to understand; Of things both in heaven and in the earth, and under the earth; things which have been, things which are, things which must shortly come to pass; things which are at home, things which are abroad; the wars and the perplexities of the nations, and the judgments which are on the land; and a knowledge also of countries and of kingdoms—That ye may be prepared in all things when I shall send you again to magnify the calling whereunto I have called you, and the mission with which I have commissioned you. Behold, I sent you out to testify and warn the people, and it becometh every man who hath been warned to warn his neighbor.”

Great things can be accomplished in the name of tradition, but only in the Second Coming, and in the preparation for it, will the best traditions find their proper place in the kingdom (much like the restoration in D&C 13 and the instruction in D&C 68:20-21).

Men continue to possess the right to the Aaronic Priesthood by lineage and practice it according to tradition, much like Christian churches stake their claim on the priesthood of Christ from Peter and the apostles on the weight of tradition and without actual power. By understanding their traditions, we can better warn them in the context of their practice.

[Alaris]

Do the Jews really have Levite heritage I wonder?

I personally believe Malachi 3 is about the latter day King David that Joseph Smith spoke of. 

Malachi 3:

Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.

2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap:

3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purifythe sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness.

Messenger in verse 1 is the same Hebrew word that is usually translated to "Angel." I will send my angel... And the lord whom you seek.. Even the angel of the covenant... 

Sure this could be a happening beyond the veil, but I believe this ties into Ezekiel 44:

Ezekiel 44:1 Then he brought me back the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary which looketh toward the east; and it was shut.

2 Then said the Lord unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the Lord, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut.

3 It is for the prince; the prince, he shall sit in it to eat bread before the Lord; he shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate, and shall go out by the way of the same.

Is this how the angel of covenant appears suddenly? The golden gate along the eastern outer wall of Jerusalem is along the eastern side of temple mount. An unexpected visitor through that wall could fulfill both Malachi 3 and Ezekiel 44.

I guess the Jewish Levites... Which seems like an oxymoron, could be they of Malachi 3, but it seems there will be some other happening first in addition to a red heifer

[Thinking]

On 9/8/2018 at 5:56 PM, Stargazer said:

since the wild ones at least had a free life before being hunted.

And a chance to escape being killed.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Thinking said:

And a chance to escape being killed.

Given wild animals are hunted from day one by other wild animals, always have to be on alert, I see it as quite possible caged animals are 'happier' in the sense of experiencing less stress over all.

I am not saying that justifies ranching, etc., just pointing out I am not that sure most animals appreciate freedom in the same sense that we do.  Anthropomorphizing animals is not the best way to care for them, can be harmful in fact. (Dogs can develop anxieties from being treated like a child instead of a dog which needs domination, etc.)

Edited September 10, 2018 by Calm

[carbon dioxide]

18 hours ago, Stargazer said:

"I have asked of the Lord concerning His coming; and while asking the Lord, He gave a sign and said, ‘In the days of Noah I set a bow in the heavens as a sign and token that in any year that the bow should be seen the Lord would not come; but there should be seed time and harvest during that year: but whenever you see the bow withdrawn, it shall be a token that there shall be famine, pestilence, and great distress among the nations, and that the coming of the Messiah is not far distant.’”

This suggests that there might be a worldwide drought at some point.  As a bit of a scientific person, I don't see how this is possible, but I'll stay open-minded about it.

Perhaps climate change will be part of it.  When I look at what they say will happen with climate change and compare it with what the scriptures and prophets have said about the very last days events, they do seem to go together nicely.  Lots of disasters from cities being flooded by the seas to famines and floods, ect.  All signs that the climate is in great distress.  Not only do I believe in climate change but I also support it. 

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, CV75 said:

Men continue to possess the right to the Aaronic Priesthood by lineage and practice it according to tradition, much like Christian churches stake their claim on the priesthood of Christ from Peter and the apostles on the weight of tradition and without actual power. By understanding their traditions, we can better warn them in the context of their practice.

Which men possess the right to the Aaronic Priesthood by lineage and tradition? Do you mean Jews who are descendants of Levi/Aaron? Is it our duty to warn them they do not? Please elaborate.

Edited September 10, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

On 9/8/2018 at 6:32 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

However, it appears from Zechariah and the D&C that the Jews will find out who the Messiah really is by surprise at their greatest hour of need -- from the Messiah himself at the cleft Mount of Olives [Zech 14:4] -- when all hangs in the balance at the end time:

My best friend as a youth was Jewish. He was intrigued when I showed him this passage in the D&C. Do you believe they will restore the temple before He comes?

[Bernard Gui]

18 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Not to say that a red heifer is meaningless -- it obviously means something to the Jews, and surely their opinions are of some worth in this.  

I suspect  they will play a bigger role than we think. The gathering continues, the signs are appearing, many of them anticipate the coming of Messiah, they figure prominently in Book of Mormon prophecies. We will be in it together.

[Bernard Gui]

11 hours ago, bbwfw said:

A red heifer yeah! That is so awesome thanks for the info.

And.....?

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

Given wild animals are hunted from day one by other wild animals, always have to be on alert, I see it as quite possible caged animals are 'happier' in the sense of experiencing less stress over all.

I am not saying that justifies ranching, etc., just pointing out I am not that sure most animals appreciate freedom in the same sense that we do.  Anthropomorphizing animals is not the best way to care for them, can be harmful in fact. (Dogs can develop anxieties from being treated like a child instead of a dog which needs domination, etc.)

Hugh Nibley said everything is either looking for lunch or trying to avoid being lunch.

[Robert F. Smith]

38 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

My best friend as a youth was Jewish. He was intrigued when I showed him this passage in the D&C. Do you believe they will restore the temple before He comes?

Yes, indeed, but only because it was part of Apostle Hyde's formal dedication, and because the Sons of Levi must offer an offering in righteousness before the end.

[Robert F. Smith]

On 9/8/2018 at 3:31 PM, cacheman said:

Not a fan of animal sacrifice.  If God exists,  I  doubt he or she is anticipating the scientific breeding efforts including embryo transplantation, designed to create the 'perfect' animal which will then be slaughtered for him/her.  I can't see the necessity. It seems to be a waste of life. 

Biblical law requires that a red heifer be killed and burned, then the ashes spread on the ritually unclean Temple Mount, before a Jew can enter the Mount.  Once that has been done, construction of the new temple can begin.  It is God's commandment.  His Law.

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

Given wild animals are hunted from day one by other wild animals, always have to be on alert, I see it as quite possible caged animals are 'happier' in the sense of experiencing less stress over all.

I am not saying that justifies ranching, etc., just pointing out I am not that sure most animals appreciate freedom in the same sense that we do.  Anthropomorphizing animals is not the best way to care for them, can be harmful in fact. (Dogs can develop anxieties from being treated like a child instead of a dog which needs domination, etc.)

This is also why you should avoid anyone who calls their pet a "furbaby"

[Stargazer]

4 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Perhaps climate change will be part of it.  When I look at what they say will happen with climate change and compare it with what the scriptures and prophets have said about the very last days events, they do seem to go together nicely.  Lots of disasters from cities being flooded by the seas to famines and floods, ect.  All signs that the climate is in great distress.  Not only do I believe in climate change but I also support it. 

A number of years ago I read an article in some science mag or other (not sure which one) that referred to a German study which suggested that the earth should have been already undergoing a glaciation now, but that 8,000 years ago human activity began to lead to more carbon dioxide being put into the air, and the resultant marginal increase in heat retention staved off the resumption of glaciation.  Note that we are still in the throes of an Ice Age, but about 12,000 years ago the climate underwent what should have been only a temporary deglaciation (which should only have lasted a few thousand years).  

If that study was correct, then hooray for global warming!  

 

[CV75]

5 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Which men possess the right to the Aaronic Priesthood by lineage and tradition? Do you mean Jews who are descendants of Levi/Aaron? Is it our duty to warn them they do not? Please elaborate.

Yes, modern men who are of the right lineage possess the right to the Aaronic Priesthood (D&C 68:15-19). Absent power and authority to exercise that right (the priesthood was restored in D&C 13; instructions for its legitimate and proper use in the latter days under the government of the Melchizedek Priesthood -- as it was in Moses' time up to Christ -- are found in D&C 68:20-21), they do so by tradition. I think it is our duty to understand where they are coming from so we can effectively proclaim the Gospel to them. Some will convert sooner than later, but it seems that those who convert in the final moment (D&C 45:51-53) are still to find mercy and grace (per the parable of the laborers in the field).

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, CV75 said:

Yes, modern men who are of the right lineage possess the right to the Aaronic Priesthood (D&C 68:15-19). Absent power and authority to exercise that right (the priesthood was restored in D&C 13; instructions for its legitimate and proper use in the latter days under the government of the Melchizedek Priesthood -- as it was in Moses' time up to Christ -- are found in D&C 68:20-21), they do so by tradition. I think it is our duty to understand where they are coming from so we can effectively proclaim the Gospel to them. Some will convert sooner than later, but it seems that those who convert in the final moment (D&C 45:51-53) are still to find mercy and grace (per the parable of the laborers in the field).

I know D&C 68 and 45. Are you saying descendants of Aaron and Levi would have to be ordained by LDS priesthood holders? I’m trying hard to imagine a scenario of Levites being baptized pre-Second Coming. 

Edited September 10, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

I know D&C 68 and 45. Are you saying descendants of Aaron and Levi would have to be ordained by LDS priesthood holders? I’m trying hard to imagine a scenario of Levites being baptized pre-Second Coming. 

If someone of this lineage were to join the Church, and I believe some have (some being aware of their heritage and some not until later), D&C 68:20 would apply. I agree that it is difficult to imagine an organized body of practicing Levite priests or Catholic monks from a monastery joining the Church en masse, but I think understanding their tradition is helpful in teaching any of them, as individuals, the Gospel.

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, Stargazer said:

A number of years ago I read an article in some science mag or other (not sure which one) that referred to a German study which suggested that the earth should have been already undergoing a glaciation now, but that 8,000 years ago human activity began to lead to more carbon dioxide being put into the air, and the resultant marginal increase in heat retention staved off the resumption of glaciation.  Note that we are still in the throes of an Ice Age, but about 12,000 years ago the climate underwent what should have been only a temporary deglaciation (which should only have lasted a few thousand years).  

If that study was correct, then hooray for global warming!  

 

That sounds like a solid and reliable source.

[The Nehor]

On 9/9/2018 at 6:50 AM, cacheman said:

Hi Stargazer,

Interestingly enough,  I am in agreement with what your faith teaches about meat consumption in the doctrine and covenants.  I don't believe that people should be under a mandate to not eat meat,  but I believe that it is wrong to eat meat when you don't need it.  I'm also in agreement with your last statement regarding hunting.

 

[PacMan]

On 9/8/2018 at 3:30 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

They already hold the priesthood of Aaron and of the lesser Levites by right of lineage.  They will build their temple and offer sacrifices there without consulting LDS authorities.  What takes place after that is another matter.

Robert, if you have a supporting citation I'd be interested.  Based on Joshua, it would seem that, although they may have a right via lineage, they still need to be ordained by one in authority to do so.  I think the Melchizedek Priesthood will need to re-institute that process and the associated keys.  I believe this is supported by D&C 68:20.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, PacMan said:

Robert, if you have a supporting citation I'd be interested.  Based on Joshua, it would seem that, although they may have a right via lineage, they still need to be ordained by one in authority to do so.  I think the Melchizedek Priesthood will need to re-institute that process and the associated keys.  I believe this is supported by D&C 68:20.

The Jews are unlikely to recognize any LDS authority in that matter, and there is no reason to suggest that they would.  As I have pointed out in this thread, the Jews will discover the identity of the actual Messiah only at the end time, in extremis, and not before.  Your suggestion requires a prior conversion to Christianity, which is just not in the prophetic cards (see Zechariah and D&C 45).  Even the D&C admits that the lineal right of Aaronic priests is part of the plan.  Your ordination requirement is only applicable to those Aaronic priests who wish to function as bishop of an LDS ward or as the LDS Presiding Bishop.  Lineal Aaronic priests of the tribe of Levi already regularly perform their official functions in Jewish congregations, and always have.

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/kohanim-jewish-priests/ .

"And it shall be for them an appointment as priests forever, for all generations." (Ex. 40:15)

"For the Lord your God has chosen him out of all your tribes, to stand to serve in the name of the Lord, him and his sons forever." (Deut. 18:5)

https://www.templeinstitute.org/red_heifer/levitical_priests.htm .

[PacMan]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The Jews are unlikely to recognize any LDS authority in that matter, and there is no reason to suggest that they would.  As I have pointed out in this thread, the Jews will discover the identity of the actual Messiah only at the end time, in extremis, and not before.  Your suggestion requires a prior conversion to Christianity, which is just not in the prophetic cards (see Zechariah and D&C 45).  Even the D&C admits that the lineal right of Aaronic priests is part of the plan.  Your ordination requirement is only applicable to those Aaronic priests who wish to function as bishop of an LDS ward or as the LDS Presiding Bishop.  Lineal Aaronic priests of the tribe of Levi already regularly perform their official functions in Jewish congregations, and always have.

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/kohanim-jewish-priests/ .

"And it shall be for them an appointment as priests forever, for all generations." (Ex. 40:15)

"For the Lord your God has chosen him out of all your tribes, to stand to serve in the name of the Lord, him and his sons forever." (Deut. 18:5)

https://www.templeinstitute.org/red_heifer/levitical_priests.htm .

I guess the real question is whether their temple and their sacrifices are efficacious.  So to change the question, will they need Melchizedek Priesthood ordination for those ordinances to be efficacious?  I still tend to believe so for the reason outlined.  Once they do so "in righteousness" per D&C 13, then the Aaronic Priesthood can be "taken again from the earth."  Indeed, D&C 13 implies that the Aaronic Priesthood was "taken."  The restoration was through John.  I don't know that the Levites can, therefore, act in an authorized manner -- albeit, I'm still excited for them to build the temple, however it functions.

Edited September 10, 2018 by PacMan

[Stargazer]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

That sounds like a solid and reliable source.

No it doesn't!  I can't even give the source.

All I can say is that it was in a science magazine that I subscribed to at the time, and the premise sounded reasonable to me.  I used to think it was Scientific American, but an occasional attempt to find it in their indexes hasn't prospered.  It might have been Discover, since that and SciAm were the only science mags I have ever subscribed to -- well, except for Sky and Telescope, which isn't a general science publication.  For some reason until just a few minutes ago it hadn't occurred me that I might have been looking in the back issues of the wrong mag.  I'll see if I can find it in Discover's back issues.

But I'm not making it up, I swear!  And it made perfect sense.  Of course, it wouldn't support certain points of view, which is too bad.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, PacMan said:

I guess the real question is whether their temple and their sacrifices are efficacious.  So to change the question, will they need Melchizedek Priesthood ordination for those ordinances to be efficacious?  I still tend to believe so for the reason outlined.  Once they do so "in righteousness" per D&C 13, then the Aaronic Priesthood can be "taken again from the earth."  Indeed, D&C 13 implies that the Aaronic Priesthood was "taken."  The restoration was through John.  I don't know that the Levites can, therefore, act in an authorized manner -- albeit, I'm still excited for them to build the temple, however it functions.

You may have noticed the citations from Exodus and Deuteronomy give the Levites "forever" status.   Sacrifice may have been suspended, but not their status as lineal priests forever.  Even the D&C recognizes that, or have you not read that part of the D&C?

Just as an aside, the reason why Roman Catholic priests cannot be excommunicated, but can only be suspended from priestly function (even if they commit rape or murder), is that they are Melchizedek priests "forever."  Even in Hell.