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PacMan

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  1. Really? You already acknowledged that Elijah Able and others received the priesthood. Elijah Able was a 70. And there were others. Their priesthood was never rescinded from them. Its probably more correct to call it a temple ban, if anything.
  2. You keep saying the word "astray," but fail to give any meaning to it. If the net result is nothing....then there is no "astray."
  3. If you don't keep your covenants, then there's not much He can do if you're unwilling to repent. Keep your covenants, and yes, it will all work out. Obscure doctrines have nothing to do with making and keeping covenants.
  4. And, that's my point. The correct path is fulfilling the conditions to receive the full blessings of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. I am not insensitive the realities of the so-called "priesthood ban" (which is not an accurate and and more complex). The practice certainly had real implications for real people. The question is, in the eternal scheme of themes, mistakes, warts, and all, what injustice will not be made right? The "correct pay" never changed. And all the obscure doctrines that (purportedly) were taught by Brigham Young didn't change the "correct path" either. Be sure, the apostate exceptions do matter. But their apostasy wasn't about an obscure doctrine (that in 99.999% of the time never affected them anyway). It's removing themselves from the correct path.
  5. You've got a lot of problems here. What does it mean to be led astray? How did the non-priesthood ban (see Elijah Able, etc.) constitute being led astray? And, what was the remedy? How did the Adam God theory lead anyone astray? How did this theory lead to anyone losing their salvation (except for complaining apostates, of course). And this committee-like approach....D&C 107:27, isn't a morph at all, is it?
  6. Question 1: What is the purpose of scripture? Question 2: Where do the commandment of God come from? Who is authorized to actually write them down? Question 3: In Act 10, when Peter received the revelation to allow Cornelius into the church, was he acting in disregard of the commandment of God? Better yet, did the angel act in disregard of the commandment of God? I'd also note that most of the faithless wonders at Mormon Stories don't believe in the commandments of God one way or the other. They are disingenuously complaining about changes in commandments that they don't believe in anyway.
  7. Do you have a download of this? It looks like Steve's closing statement is broken or no longer exists.
  8. I hope not. There was no duty to the plaintiffs by Kirton McConkie. But the bishop could sue for malpractice.
  9. Has anyone read this book? This extensive work appears to be fully dedicated to the notion that Deutero Isaiah was NOT written in post-exilic Babylon. This, obviously, has significant relevance to the authenticity of the Book of Mormon and its inclusion of some (but not all) Isaiah chapters. Professor Lena-Sofia Tiemeyer seems to know her stuff....graduating with a DPhil from the University of Oxford in 2002. Is anyone aware of a BYU or other review outlining the arguments? I'm not quite ready to spend $200 on a copy.... https://brill.com/view/title/19199
  10. D&C 130:3 makes it pretty clear: "3 John 14:23—The aappearing of the Father and the Son, in that verse, is a personal bappearance; and the idea that the Father and the Son cdwell in a man’s heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false." As others have mentioned, Joseph Smith taught about the second comforter and the reality of a divine personal visitation. In April 2014 GC, President Packer did not mince words: "Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon recorded the following after a sacred experience: “And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives! “For we saw him” (D&C 76:22–23). Their words are my words. I believe and I am sure that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that He lives. He is the Only Begotten of the Father, and “by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God” (D&C 76:24). I bear my witness that the Savior lives. I know the Lord. I am His witness. I know of His great sacrifice and eternal love." Emphasis are all original. This is from Allen Packer speaking about his father, Boyd K. Packer at his funeral on July 10, 2015: “Grandpa has a deep testimony of the gospel of Jesus Christ. He knows it is true. He has served for more than 50 years as a General Authority of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. He had many deep spiritual experiences, but you should know that you do not need to be a General Authority to have those same spiritual experiences. All men and all women can have them. You can have them. I know! In 1992 Grandpa started a poem he called the “Unfinished Composition.” He added another section each 10 years. He quoted it as part of his conference talk in April 2012 entitled “These Things I Know.” The last part concluded with these verses: “I now can say with all certainty that I know and love the Lord. I can testify with them of old as I preach His holy word. I know what He felt in Gethsamene . . . too much to comprehend. I know He did it all for us; we have no greater Friend. I know that He will come anew with power and in glory. I know I will see Him once again at the end of my life’s story. [I will] kneel before His wounded feet; [I will] feel His Spirit glow. My whispering, quivering voice will say, My Lord, my God, I know.” I add to Grandpa’s testimony my witness, called as a special witness, that our Father in Heaven lives, that Jesus is the Christ, the Atonement applies to each of us, and we can feel the truthfulness of that through the power of the Holy Ghost. In the name of Jesus Christ, amen." I personally know of one person's experience. And I know that person shared it with one of the Twelve who in turn reciprocated with his experience. That said, I have never encountered such a divisive doctrine. When shared prematurely, for whatever reason, these sacred experiences drive a wedge into the hearts of those unready to hear. In my experience, they tend to obsess, become angry, or even hostile over the topic. It is the strangest thing. Seeking after the qualities of 2 Peter 1 is time well spent.
  11. Here's an amateurish overlay of Joseph's death mask with William Marks. Why? Because the features are close enough to suggest that the death mask similarity to the "Joseph" daguerreotype is not particularly dispositive. Of course, this is a little more challenging because of the non-straight angle of Marks' photo. But the features align quite well.
  12. Josiah Quincy also noted a similarity between Joseph Smith and Elisha R. Potter of Rhode Island. Potter’s face is a rounder face we are accustomed to also attributing to Joseph Smith. "A fine-looking man is what the passer-by would instinctively have murmured upon meeting the remarkable individual who had fashioned the mould which was to shape the feelings of so many thousands of his fellow-mortals. But Smith was more than this, and one could not resist the impression that capacity and resource were natural to his stalwart person. I have already mentioned the resemblance he bore to Elisha R. Potter, of Rhode Island, whom I met in Washington in 1826. The likeness was not such as would be recognized in a picture, but rather one that would be felt in a grave emergency. Of all men I have met, these two seemed best endowed with that kingly faculty which directs, as by intrinsic right, the feeble or confused souls who are looking for guidance." —Josiah Quincy, "Figures of the Past From the Leaves of Old Journals", 3rd ed (Boston, 1883), pp. 376-400. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Elisha_Reynolds_Potter_1764-1835.jpg
  13. Simply the lightness. The "Joseph" picture does seem to have lighter eyes than Marks. But that could be attributable to a number of things (lighting, age, paper, exposure, etc.).
  14. I think the recent discovery is very exciting. I, however, do not believe it is Joseph Smith (although, it is growing on me). I find too many differences in the picture and Joseph Smith's death mask. I find differences between the picture and portraits by those that had seen Joseph. And I find differences between the picture and descriptions of those that knew him well (bushy eyebrows, a full, extended upper lip, the cleft chin, etc.). Rather, I think it may be a picture of William Marks, the President of the Nauvoo Stake. I find obvious similarities between the newly found picture and a picture of Marks dated from the late 1860s to the early 1870s (both below); e.g. the mouth, the mouth lines, the eyes, the ears, the uneven chin, the hair color, etc.. Of course, it'd difficult because of both the difference in the picture angle and tilt of the heads, Marks' quasi-scowl (pulling his eyebrows together), and the difference in age. Further, William Marks was born in 1792. So, he would have been 13 years older than Joseph Smith. At the time of the martyrdom, Marks would have been 51. To me, the recently discovered picture more closely resembles a 51 year old man than a 38 year old (Joseph Smith). In addition, Emma and Marks were friends, with Emma supporting Marks as Joseph's successor. That, no doubt, led to Marks becoming the first counselor to Joseph Smith III in the RLDS Church. Consequently, there would be good reason for the Smith family to have and bequeath the locket with a picture of a younger Marks over the past 150+ years. If there is one thing to undermine this theory, I think it is that the eye colors do not appear to match.
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