The Nehor Posted December 9, 2020 Posted December 9, 2020 On 12/7/2020 at 10:11 PM, rongo said: I am a proud honorary Boomer. Millennial/Gen X don't care that I was born in 1975; to them, Boomers are literally anyone over 30. My 5th hour class even went out and made me a plaque last year. We had lots of running inside jokes about boomers and snowflake millennials. But all Gen Xers are over 30. Oh, and... 1
The Nehor Posted December 9, 2020 Posted December 9, 2020 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: I guess the adage that “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” is limited in scope. I prefer "The enemy of my enemy is probably a face-eating leopard that will turn on me too." 2
Meadowchik Posted December 9, 2020 Posted December 9, 2020 On 12/7/2020 at 11:09 PM, Judd said: I think it depends on how you define “exMo world,” but I don’t think “his brand” suffers much. There have already been many of these same complaints among many other former members, in particular the more progressive members. But John Dehlin appeals to the “everyman.” He’s an average, boring guy. Kind of like the average, boring members who are just trying to go about their life and survive. They’re not academics, but also don’t consider themselves niave, but have spent a vast majority of time and money within the church and don’t know a lot of its history or possible controversial issues. Not too dissimilar to the fact that many men can enjoy watching sports, know the big names, the successful teams, and spend a decent amount of time engaged in sports viewership, but they may know only know this fairly superficially — they have no clue about any advanced statistics, they are clueless about the collective bargaining agreement rules that prohibit all of their fantasy trades, they know nearly nothing about the actual business side of this, or scouting side, but they think it’s amazing when LeBron drops 40. Then people get broadsided with things they never knew or never considered, and they research more than they had previously, but still only superficially, and the relative difference to them feels extreme, so they reach the peak of the dunning-kruger curve. People will often identify with Dehlin as they may see themselves in his journey. Maybe a more apt analogy is wokeness. People may feel “woke” by not being republican and supporting the DNC establishment. Many progressives would state that this is just RNC-lite, but it’s comfortable being in touch with the mainstream under the cloak of social justice. John Dehlin will always occupy this part of post-Mormonism, and there are many more people wanting that comfort of inclusion with mainstream society. He is still prominent, but he stands out a less now, I think. I personally had an ironic experience listening to Mormon Stories, the first year of my leaving. It was a long interview with Christine Jeppsen Clark, who spoke about her experience of leaving the church. I found myself listening intently and feeling quite interested in her story and her personal insights she shared. As a female who grew up in the church where most perspectives were male and all authoritative statements were overwhelmingly male, I started to want to hear more women speak. I grew tired of being told how to think and much more interested in hearing a variety of experiences and information. I began to experience much more skepticism for any type of figureheads. In other words, listening to Mormon Stories made me want to not listen to people like John Dehlin. I think this is a common type of experience in the "exMo world." People leave and often seek like-minds and deconversion support and then they will phase out of that. 1
Robert J Anderson Posted December 11, 2020 Posted December 11, 2020 On 12/7/2020 at 9:41 PM, juliann said: Sexual harrassment is not a "non-occurrence." It is typical to believe the man rather than the woman, unfortunately. Do you think women should automatically be believed? I don't think anyone should automatically be believed as it would create too much unnecessary drama in domestic violence cases and sexual assault cases. As for Rosebud, take a look at the pages and pages of what she has said on mormon*****.***. Her story didn't amount to enough to file a case against Mr. Dehlin and she hasn't filed one to this day. Nevertheless, she should be believed, just because? I don't think she even made harassment allegations because she was afraid of a defamation lawsuit.
juliann Posted December 11, 2020 Posted December 11, 2020 6 minutes ago, Robert J Anderson said: Do you think women should automatically be believed? I don't think anyone should automatically be believed as it would create too much unnecessary drama in domestic violence cases and sexual assault cases. As for Rosebud, take a look at the pages and pages of what she has said on mormon*****.***. Her story didn't amount to enough to file a case against Mr. Dehlin and she hasn't filed one to this day. Nevertheless, she should be believed, just because? I don't think she even made harassment allegations because she was afraid of a defamation lawsuit. The problem is the default has always been to disbelieve women or to at least put the blame back on them. When that stops, I suppose it can seem like they are "automatically" believed. I'm familiar with Rosebud. And as I said, I believe her. There are enough complaints about such things out there it isn't hard. I won't go into why people have rigid expectations of how victims are supposed to comport themselves. Feminists periodically come out in a rage over the exmo predators in their mist, Tom Kimball being the latest. There is much frustration over how they are allowed to get away with it when people know....but then they continue to speak of problem men without naming them. So I don't know what is going on with that. Kelly's statement does sound like to me something is afoot. But it could be just talk again. 3
Ipod Touch Posted December 11, 2020 Posted December 11, 2020 5 hours ago, juliann said: Kelly's statement does sound like to me something is afoot. But it could be just talk again. This is something I've never quite understood. If everyone has the goods on Dehlin, what they waiting for? Call me a cynic, but I think Kelly is resentful of Dehlin barging in on her excommunication theater. I don't think she went into the OW thing with the intention of this being a package deal. Dehlin stole her thunder to serve his own ego.
Avatar4321 Posted December 11, 2020 Posted December 11, 2020 On 12/7/2020 at 3:48 PM, juliann said: No wonder he is trying to keep the violent video that is supposed to get him killed alive on his own website. That sounds like something is afoot. The violent video that was posted with a disclaimer that it was symbolic that he then called the police & FBI on? I think Dehlin and his crew are just upset that people are seeing through the CES Letter finally. He doesn’t have the influence he thought he had. So he needs to keep people distracted
Avatar4321 Posted December 11, 2020 Posted December 11, 2020 On 12/7/2020 at 3:50 PM, jkwilliams said: Nope. Like I said, I really haven't paid much attention to him. Many years ago, some good friends of mine had some very bad experiences with him, so I've steered clear ever since. Wise move
Avatar4321 Posted December 11, 2020 Posted December 11, 2020 15 minutes ago, Ipod Touch said: This is something I've never quite understood. If everyone has the goods on Dehlin, what they waiting for? Call me a cynic, but I think Kelly is resentful of Dehlin barging in on her excommunication theater. I don't think she went into the OW thing with the intention of this being a package deal. Dehlin stole her thunder to serve his own ego. Could be. If that’s the case: 1
Avatar4321 Posted December 11, 2020 Posted December 11, 2020 1 hour ago, Avatar4321 said: Could be. If that’s the case: Nothing in this post is meant to encourage violence. If you call the police on me, you will be laughed at 3
Meadowchik Posted December 11, 2020 Posted December 11, 2020 On 12/8/2020 at 5:33 AM, Robert J Anderson said: I don't think Rosebud is very credible. She likes to build up the story about Dehlin but never delivers. Hers is a tale of sexual non-occurrence. Dehlin may be a media hound and may be exaggerating Kwaku's supposed threat, but Rosebud's story is suspect in my opinion. I disagree. I find her story plausible and consistent with other reports of Dehlin's dealings with women.
juliann Posted December 11, 2020 Posted December 11, 2020 9 hours ago, Ipod Touch said: This is something I've never quite understood. If everyone has the goods on Dehlin, what they waiting for? Call me a cynic, but I think Kelly is resentful of Dehlin barging in on her excommunication theater. I don't think she went into the OW thing with the intention of this being a package deal. Dehlin stole her thunder to serve his own ego. They have both burned so many bridges. Kelly did a lot of damage to Mormon feminism. She pretty much blew it up. OW never recovered. It took me a few seconds to even remember the name Ordain Women. But, like all of humanity, when push comes to shove, we protect our side. I have watched the curious tale of exmo predator for years. I saw enough complaints to become aware of it, then one of the online groups got mad enough they posted a few names on their blog. Then it went quiet again. The complaints always explained away the behavior as the product of the Mormon upbringing that these men brought with them into the exmo community. That, of course, is untenable as they champion what better people they become by leaving the church so having this element alive and well kind of tears at their narrative. So it is a garbled position to begin with. There was a new wave of the same concern I've seen over the years after the Tom Kimball exposure. So I assume this is like most situations where women warn each other but keep it in house. As for accusations against Dehlin, he is in the position of power. He would certainly be able to get lawyers from his admirers and funding to go after anyone who made the complaints official. It doesn't get any more complicated than that when it comes to silencing women. It also sounds like this Rosebud may have made her first attempts well before MeToo. Kelly would be the best positioned when it comes to equal footing but there is always the problem of going after someone who has been so successful in the common goal of harming the church. 4
Tacenda Posted January 11, 2021 Posted January 11, 2021 Reading a discussion elsewhere and it was brought up that their newly Priesthood ordained relative was super celebrated with a gathering and so forth. And the question was what about the young women that become Mia Maids etc. Or those that earned a medallion that use to be in the curriculum (my question). Is there anything that celebrates the young women like they do the young men? Even Catholics, or Hispanic Catholics that celebrate their young women with a quinceanera. I wonder what religions equalize those celebrations.
Fair Dinkum Posted January 11, 2021 Posted January 11, 2021 (edited) I just finished listening to the MS multi hour long interview series between John Dehlin and Jim Bennett, author of a faithful response to A Letter to a CES Directer. I found the series very refreshing and an example of how communication could take place between a believer and non. The interview represented a template for how all of us could model communication with the opposite of wherever we may personally fall on the belief spectrum. The tone between the two men was reverential and courteous. On one occasion, Dehlin did mention Kate Kelly in very positive terms, so now having read what JK Williams has posted gives me pause as to why two people could have such opposing views of each other. Edited January 11, 2021 by Fair Dinkum 2
Amulek Posted January 11, 2021 Posted January 11, 2021 3 hours ago, Tacenda said: Reading a discussion elsewhere and it was brought up that their newly Priesthood ordained relative was super celebrated with a gathering and so forth. I've seen extended families get together when a child is being baptized and then all hang out for a meal afterwards - maybe even at a restaurant if they're fancy. But I've never even heard of people having some kind of special celebration for a 12 (err, 11) year old boy being ordained to the priesthood. Is this really a thing? 1
Fair Dinkum Posted January 11, 2021 Posted January 11, 2021 On 12/7/2020 at 2:50 PM, Ipod Touch said: #JusticeForRosebud Coincidence? I just watched Citizen Kane Last night. But I'm only guessing that this Rosebud is not a sleigh.
Tacenda Posted January 11, 2021 Posted January 11, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Amulek said: I've seen extended families get together when a child is being baptized and then all hang out for a meal afterwards - maybe even at a restaurant if they're fancy. But I've never even heard of people having some kind of special celebration for a 12 (err, 11) year old boy being ordained to the priesthood. Is this really a thing? I meant the one when they turn 18 or Priest? Edited January 11, 2021 by Tacenda
bluebell Posted January 12, 2021 Posted January 12, 2021 55 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I meant the one when they turn 18 or Priest? If he was newly ordained he was either 11 or had become an elder.
Tacenda Posted January 12, 2021 Posted January 12, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, bluebell said: If he was newly ordained he was either 11 or had become an elder. I went back to the thread I read it on and it said he was ordained a Teacher, my memory wasn't the greatest I guess. Edited January 12, 2021 by Tacenda
bluebell Posted January 12, 2021 Posted January 12, 2021 21 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I went back to the thread I read it on and it said he was ordained a Teacher, my memory wasn't the greatest I guess. You weren’t really wrong, as he was newly ordained to that quorum. Just not to the Aaronic priesthood. It doesn’t matter though. If they want to have a party more power to them.
Hamba Tuhan Posted January 12, 2021 Posted January 12, 2021 (edited) 8 hours ago, Tacenda said: Is there anything that celebrates the young women like they do the young men? 'They' in this case being a particular family. Which means that you would need to ask that family. I have never in my life seen a celebration held because a young man was ordained a teacher (or anything else). My response would be to wish the boy well on his new responsibilities and express confidence that he could live up to them. Edited January 12, 2021 by Hamba Tuhan 4
mrmarklin Posted January 12, 2021 Posted January 12, 2021 10 hours ago, Tacenda said: Even Catholics, or Hispanic Catholics that celebrate their young women with a quinceanera. I wonder what religions equalize those celebrations. Quinceañera is a coming of age party in the Latin culture. It has nothing to do with Catholicism. Coming out to adulthood. 4
Maestrophil Posted January 12, 2021 Posted January 12, 2021 18 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said: I just finished listening to the MS multi hour long interview series between John Dehlin and Jim Bennett, author of a faithful response to A Letter to a CES Directer. I found the series very refreshing and an example of how communication could take place between a believer and non. The interview represented a template for how all of us could model communication with the opposite of wherever we may personally fall on the belief spectrum. The tone between the two men was reverential and courteous. On one occasion, Dehlin did mention Kate Kelly in very positive terms, so now having read what JK Williams has posted gives me pause as to why two people could have such opposing views of each other. I agree, I was eager to watch it and enjoyed it quite a bit - and then I made the mistake of reading the comments on the video and heard almost nothing but put downs about Bro. Bennett, his lack of intelligence, his obvious 'mental gymnastics', and his obfuscation of hard questions. Made me frustrated again about the nature of discourse between members and former members. 😞
Amulek Posted January 12, 2021 Posted January 12, 2021 13 hours ago, Tacenda said: I went back to the thread I read it on and it said he was ordained a Teacher, my memory wasn't the greatest I guess. So something kind of like a Mormon bar mitzva party then? I don't think that is a common thing, at least not anywhere I've ever been in the church. Sounds like this particular family just decided to use the occasion as an excuse to (as @bluebell said) throw a party. If that's what they want to do, that's fine. Seems kind of strange to me, but I'm not in their family and don't know what their family is like. 1
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