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"Love One Another" v. "Black Lives Matter"


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22 hours ago, The Nehor said:

This is a problem. A lot of facial recognition software and things of that nature do much better with caucasian faces because that is who the majority of testing is done on. It is not intentionally racist (I hope).

Amulek, love the HomestarRunner avatar.

Could some of these be a lighting problem?  I know when I try to take pictures of black people with my phone I have to have good light and the blacker they are the better the light needs to be.  

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It comes down to how they are trained.

Facial recognition (when done in the way I'm familiar with), is trained using a neural network.

The training image set is used to "train" the program, that is find relationships between certain things in the image.

I'm massively simplifying here, but it might be things like the shape, size, and position of eyes, ears, mouth, nose, skin colour, head shape etc.

Each of these values will get a "weight" to determine how relevant it is.

The more and wider variety of images you have, will lead to a system that can detect a wider variety of faces. For example if you only gave it images of one person, it would be great at identifying that person, but would be quite bad at differentiating other people from each other.

Likewise, if you only train on white dudes, then skin colour will be weighed low (or zero), and so differentiating between people with different skin colours will rely entirely on other facial features. And depending on where people are from, those might be more subtly different than the white dudes.

If you think about the "you all look the same to me" stereotypical comment (often toward the Chinese), it's essentially the same thing, but with an electronic brain, rather than our mooshy brain.

Essentially any visual stereotype that we have, will contribute to misidentification if the facial recognition system isn't trained widely enough.

 

 

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Marriott Magazine came in the mail the other day and I came across this article ("The Levite, The Priest, and The Good Samaritan in a World of Racial Injustice" pp 11-13): http://marriottschool.uberflip.com/i/1306375-fall-2020/11?

Unfortunately I cannot copy and paste effectively but the 4th paragraph speaks to what leaders of institutions can do to reform (repent of racism).

 

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On 11/12/2020 at 4:04 AM, The Nehor said:

The protests were never about the President. The President-Elect does have some reforms on his platform to mitigate police excess but police reform is not a national problem because police are not run at a national level and the federal government’s ability to make reforms is limited due to constitutional restrictions.

 

As we can see, the protests ended when Trump lost the election. True, the protests lasted a couple of days after the election but the plug was pulled by the Establishment and now we have silence on the streets. The money dried up on purpose and the order was given not to protest. The demonstrations were all about creating chaos before the election and to blame Trump for the problem.

Why else would the Antifa crowd go home after the election? And BLM has been rather silent. And there is a new message now: be away differences and love one another. Time to heal.

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On 11/11/2020 at 7:58 PM, pogi said:

The demonstrations lasted a couple of days after the election. Now....silence on the streets. Antifa has gone home, the plug has been pulled and BLM is no longer on the streets protesting. Amazing how things have changed. But it does show partisanship and just how people cannot see the puppeteers behind the puppets. And now, we hear calls for unity and love. Amazing how the message has been changed by the establishment.

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40 minutes ago, why me said:

I think that we will be hearing more about the importance of love and unity now in the United States. And those who will not be going along with the new message will be seen as deplorable or racist. But at least the streets are peaceful and life can concentrate on the virus.

 

Edited by why me
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"Love One Another" v. "Black Lives Matter"

This is the stupidest cage match ever.

More to the point, I find I'm repulsed by straw-men competitions in general. If one wants to discredit some group because they don't like them, then be direct and and say that. Why try to suck people into a rabbit hole by wrapping an agenda in a facade of examination?

I don't see a scrap of love in that approach.

Edited by Chum
bolstering an insufficient euphamism
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4 hours ago, why me said:

The demonstrations lasted a couple of days after the election. Now....silence on the streets. Antifa has gone home, the plug has been pulled and BLM is no longer on the streets protesting. Amazing how things have changed. But it does show partisanship and just how people cannot see the puppeteers behind the puppets. And now, we hear calls for unity and love. Amazing how the message has been changed by the establishment.

Let the un-division begin! 

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On 11/6/2020 at 11:48 PM, sweetpotatoh said:

 As I was also "a trained Marxist" I think I had to say something about this because I don't think we have a lot of former Marxists on this board.  Perhaps a few present Marxists, perhaps, but I would suggest that such should not be trusted to represent what a "true Marxist" is or what the program is.  Most likely they are revisionists and social democrats and Trotskyites if they are here at all.

BUT I simply wanted to say that the above is a true statement.  BLM IS a Marxist organization.   At this point I am not saying that that fact is neither "good or bad" but since I am no longer a Marxist perhaps one could deduce my position as it is now, for what that is worth. 

If all those words "Black Lives Matter" meant was the the lives of Black folks matter, I would not only have a bumper sticker on my car, I would have a flag streaming out behind my car in support of those words.  It is horrifying to think of all the talent and intelligence which could have been part of humankind's repository if racism never existed!  What a tragic loss to humanity!!

I was a student of Angela Davis while she was at UCLA and can prove it if needed- I have the transcripts to show it.

She was one of the kindest professors I ever had, and I will never deny it.  She truly loved people and her students in particular and at the time I agreed with her politics.  Marxists can be fine and loving people, in case that was a question in anyone's mind.  They do not have horns ;)  Her conversion was understandable- one of her childhood friends lost her life in the now famous church bombing in Birmingham in which two little girls were killed out of pure racism. https://www.mercurynews.com/2013/09/12/angela-davis-commemorates-50th-anniversary-of-alabama-church-bombing/

I cannot imagine what it would be like if one of my Primary friends from church were killed by a bombing, and I was saved because I happened to be home that day.

I no longer take a Marxist position, but I know  Marxist when I see one the same way a Mormon might recognize another Mormon's writing even if perhaps it was somewhat disguised intentionally.

These folks advocate all the "buzz ideas" even if they do not use the "buzz words" since those are a direct give- away.

I found this a little disturbing:

Quote

 

Black Lives Matter co-founder Patrisse Cullors said in a newly surfaced video from 2015 that she and her fellow organizers are “trained Marxists” – making clear their movement’s ideological foundation, according to a report.

Cullors, 36, was the protégé of Eric Mann, former agitator of the Weather Underground domestic terror organization, and spent years absorbing the Marxist-Leninist ideology that shaped her worldview, Breitbart News reported.

“The first thing, I think, is that we actually do have an ideological frame. Myself and Alicia in particular are trained organizers,” she said, referring to BLM co-founder Alicia Garza.

“We are trained Marxists. We are super-versed on, sort of, ideological theories. And I think that what we really tried to do is build a movement that could be utilized by many, many black folk,” Cullors added in the interview with Jared Ball of The Real News Network.

 

Emphasis added.

"We are super-versed on, sort of, ideological theories. "   That "sort of" gives me the creeps.

I believe that is probably the problem.  Knowing the policies of Marxism is quite different from a clear understanding of Dialectical Materialism which is its cornerstone, along with the Hegelianism from which it sprouted.  In many ways Hegelianism is itself a religious point of view based on "The Spirit of the Times"- or Zeistgeist.  

If you don't understand the full philosophy, you could be in deep trouble without even knowing it.

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On 11/26/2020 at 10:18 AM, why me said:

As we can see, the protests ended when Trump lost the election. True, the protests lasted a couple of days after the election but the plug was pulled by the Establishment and now we have silence on the streets. The money dried up on purpose and the order was given not to protest. The demonstrations were all about creating chaos before the election and to blame Trump for the problem.

Why else would the Antifa crowd go home after the election? And BLM has been rather silent. And there is a new message now: be away differences and love one another. Time to heal.

The money dried up? Are you under the impression it is expensive to go out and hold up a sign or chant slogans? Who gave the order to stop? Why would anyone listen to the order? I was involved in some of the information collation for the early protests. There was no one pulling strings. There was no one in charge. It was very organic.

There is no orchestration by elites to control the protests. It was grass roots. Almost no one in the protests called themselves Antifa and there was no Antifa faction in the protests of any note. Antifa was a joke. More than once coordinators would create a rumor of a “van of Antifa supersoldiers” coming into town to confuse police response to give protesters breathing room. It is weird how some people are obsessed with Antifa. It is largely gone. I also remember the good old days when being opposed to fascism was a patriotic duty and not something to be derided.

The anger was not at the President and it was not aimed at him except for the few times he tried to get involved. The President Elect does have some policies in his platform addressing some of the concerns of the protesters such as tracking of police misconduct to prevent rehiring elsewhere, suggested rules requiring police misconduct to be reviewed by a DA that does not work with that department, and ending the selling of surplus military equipment to police departments. More importantly on the local level cities have enacted changes. Portland, where it got hot a lot, now has a police oversight committee with firing power. The police union has filed lawsuits against it. If they manage to shut the board decisively down the protests will almost certainly increase in intensity.

It is insulting to everyone involved in the protests to assume they are all “bought and paid for” crisis actors. I find the characterization unfounded and despicable. It is also nothing new. MLK was in the pocket of the Soviets after all. What is so worrying and objectionable about the message of the protests that people mentally default to assuming there is some great evil behind it all? Is it the media they consume? Racism? Fear of people being able to tell the police to stop abusing them? What is it?

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14 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The money dried up? Are you under the impression it is expensive to go out and hold up a sign or chant slogans? Who gave the order to stop? Why would anyone listen to the order? I was involved in some of the information collation for the early protests. There was no one pulling strings. There was no one in charge. It was very organic.

There is no orchestration by elites to control the protests. It was grass roots. Almost no one in the protests called themselves Antifa and there was no Antifa faction in the protests of any note. Antifa was a joke. More than once coordinators would create a rumor of a “van of Antifa supersoldiers” coming into town to confuse police response to give protesters breathing room. It is weird how some people are obsessed with Antifa. It is largely gone. I also remember the good old days when being opposed to fascism was a patriotic duty and not something to be derided.

 

It is insulting to everyone involved in the protests to assume they are all “bought and paid for” crisis actors. I find the characterization unfounded and despicable. It is also nothing new. MLK was in the pocket of the Soviets after all. What is so worrying and objectionable about the message of the protests that people mentally default to assuming there is some great evil behind it all? Is it the media they consume? Racism? Fear of people being able to tell the police to stop abusing them? What is it?

Organizing demonstrations takes money and people. It just doesn't happen without a central organizing committee. And yes, foundations do provide money to organizations that organize people to support causes that the foundation supports. I took part in many demonstrations in the 1970s. Buses were rented, signs were professionally made and money was received. And where did some of the money come from? The Soviet Union which was the main contributor to the communist party usa. I know because I was there.

Why did the demonstrations stop so suddenly? Quite amazing that all of them just disappeared. Has the circumstances behind the demonstrations suddenly improved? Biden? I do believe he sponsored the crime bill that sent many blacks to prison during clinton's time and beyond. And did he not call them 'predators'? And did not Harris find pride in convicting many of them? And I do believe that Trump set many of them free thanks to Kim and Kanye. This is not a political post, just a post to show that there are puppeteers behind the puppets even if the puppets do not know they are puppets.

https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/grants

The above link

is my case in point.

 

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On 11/28/2020 at 5:33 AM, california boy said:

Sorry, but just who is the "establishment".  And who was supplying the money that dried up?  Just who gave the order to stop protesting?  Cause I have't hear any reports about orders going out to now stop protesting.  Not even on Fox News.  

Do you really think there is someone calling literally hundreds of thousands of protesters telling them to show up?  Or quite possibly are there hundreds of thousands of not only black people in this country but Americans of all color and race that are sick and tired of the kind of treatment minorities have had to deal with for far too long.

For the past four years, we have had a president that constantly drove wedges between races.  Even before he was elected, he was saying derogatory things about certain races.  During his presidency he continued to be decisive and tacitly acknowledged white racist groups to "stand by".  The one single thing I am looking forward to is to put this race baiting behind us and have a president that respects all Americans.  

You are right.  The protesting did loose steam BECAUSE those protesting have hope the next administration starts dealing with some of the issues that have plagued this country way too long.  The whole reason why Americans overwhelmingly elected our new president by over 6 million votes is because we are fed up with the childish antagonistic behavior of our current president. 

Who is the Establishment? You need to read Owen Jones' book The Establishment. Owen is a rather intelligent man who has written many points from the Left.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/sep/10/the-establishment-how-they-get-away-with-it-owen-jones-review

Regardless of the administration, nothing has ever actually changed. Like a ferris wheel it just goes round and round. True there are small cosmetic changes that the system allows to happen. But the big picture stays the same. Divide people by race, creed, gender and whatever else that my divide humanity. A people divided can never organize to challenge the power behind the power elite.

https://www.amazon.com/Power-Elite-C-Wright-Mills/dp/0195133544

 

 

 

 

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On 11/28/2020 at 2:56 AM, mfbukowski said:

 As I was also "a trained Marxist" I think I had to say something about this because I don't think we have a lot of former Marxists on this board.  Perhaps a few present Marxists, perhaps, but I would suggest that such should not be trusted to represent what a "true Marxist" is or what the program is.  Most likely they are revisionists and social democrats and Trotskyites if they are here at all.

BUT I simply wanted to say that the above is a true statement.  BLM IS a Marxist organization.   At this point I am not saying that that fact is neither "good or bad" but since I am no longer a Marxist perhaps one could deduce my position as it is now, for what that is worth. 

If all those words "Black Lives Matter" meant was the the lives of Black folks matter, I would not only have a bumper sticker on my car, I would have a flag streaming out behind my car in support of those words.  It is horrifying to think of all the talent and intelligence which could have been part of humankind's repository if racism never existed!  What a tragic loss to humanity!!

I was a student of Angela Davis while she was at UCLA and can prove it if needed- I have the transcripts to show it.

She was one of the kindest professors I ever had, and I will never deny it.  She truly loved people and her students in particular and at the time I agreed with her politics.  Marxists can be fine and loving people, in case that was a question in anyone's mind.  They do not have horns ;)  Her conversion was understandable- one of her childhood friends lost her life in the now famous church bombing in Birmingham in which two little girls were killed out of pure racism. https://www.mercurynews.com/2013/09/12/angela-davis-commemorates-50th-anniversary-of-alabama-church-bombing/

I cannot imagine what it would be like if one of my Primary friends from church were killed by a bombing, and I was saved because I happened to be home that day.

I no longer take a Marxist position, but I know  Marxist when I see one the same way a Mormon might recognize another Mormon's writing even if perhaps it was somewhat disguised intentionally.

These folks advocate all the "buzz ideas" even if they do not use the "buzz words" since those are a direct give- away.

I found this a little disturbing:

Emphasis added.

"We are super-versed on, sort of, ideological theories. "   That "sort of" gives me the creeps.

I believe that is probably the problem.  Knowing the policies of Marxism is quite different from a clear understanding of Dialectical Materialism which is its cornerstone, along with the Hegelianism from which it sprouted.  In many ways Hegelianism is itself a religious point of view based on "The Spirit of the Times"- or Zeistgeist.  

If you don't understand the full philosophy, you could be in deep trouble without even knowing it.

I agree with you about Angela. I voted for her on the Gus Hall ticket when she ran for vice president. Her writings are classics. Likewise for Cornell West. What most people do not understand is that the Marxists often were critical of Obama for his pro business policies and his neglect of the black working class and the working class in general. West called him a neoliberal who served big business. In the seventies the stress was on uniting all races against the capital power structure and the system that it created. There was no identity politics just class politics. What was that slogan? Workers of the World, Unite. It said nothing about color.

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32 minutes ago, why me said:

Who is the Establishment? You need to read Owen Jones' book The Establishment. Owen is a rather intelligent man who has written many points from the Left.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/sep/10/the-establishment-how-they-get-away-with-it-owen-jones-review

Regardless of the administration, nothing has ever actually changed. Like a ferris wheel it just goes round and round. True there are small cosmetic changes that the system allows to happen. But the big picture stays the same. Divide people by race, creed, gender and whatever else that my divide humanity. A people divided can never organize to challenge the power behind the power elite.

https://www.amazon.com/Power-Elite-C-Wright-Mills/dp/0195133544

 

 

 

 

Boy you totally ignored answering any of my questions.  Seriously?  I have to read an entire book on who is the establishment?  Or does it just take that long to spin some hair brain conspiracy  plot

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On 11/27/2020 at 10:33 PM, california boy said:

For the past four years, we have had a president that constantly drove wedges between races.  Even before he was elected, he was saying derogatory things about certain races.  During his presidency he continued to be decisive and tacitly acknowledged white racist groups to "stand by".  The one single thing I am looking forward to is to put this race baiting behind us and have a president that respects all Americans.  

You are right.  The protesting did loose steam BECAUSE those protesting have hope the next administration starts dealing with some of the issues that have plagued this country way too long.  The whole reason why Americans overwhelmingly elected our new president by over 6 million votes is because we are fed up with the childish antagonistic behavior of our current president. 

I'm looking forward to seeing the same level of kindness and respect for the new president by those who oppose him as was shown to the current president by those who opposed him.

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17 hours ago, The Nehor said:

It is insulting to everyone involved in the protests to assume they are all “bought and paid for” crisis actors. I find the characterization unfounded and despicable. It is also nothing new. MLK was in the pocket of the Soviets after all. What is so worrying and objectionable about the message of the protests that people mentally default to assuming there is some great evil behind it all? Is it the media they consume? Racism? Fear of people being able to tell the police to stop abusing them? What is it?

I agree Antifa is a silly boogeyman of the right, just like white supremacy is a silly boogeyman of the left.  It's clear the main opposition to BLM comes from the right because the BLM organization and most of their follower openly supported candidates on the left.  Maybe it's more fun to create conspiracy theories about the demonstrations and demonstrators than to admit it's mostly political. 

Patrisse Cullors, one of the leaders of the Black Lives Matter movement:  "Alongside Black-led organizations around the nation, Black Lives Matter invested heavily in this election... We want something for our vote. We want to be heard and our agenda to be prioritized." 

From https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-matters-2020/:

"Yet again, Black folks did nothing short of saving our country. From coast to coast, our movement delivered record turnout in the general election. Now, we’ve got Georgia on our minds."

That's a good way to lose support from the millions that voted against your candidates.  Do you really expect BLM to have much more than 19%  support from Republicans (from Pew as of September) without being non-partisan?  I don't care for either party, but I'm not hopeful much will change without support from both sides.

What does it take to get this thread shut down?

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2 hours ago, gopher said:

I agree Antifa is a silly boogeyman of the right, just like white supremacy is a silly boogeyman of the left.  It's clear the main opposition to BLM comes from the right because the BLM organization and most of their follower openly supported candidates on the left.  Maybe it's more fun to create conspiracy theories about the demonstrations and demonstrators than to admit it's mostly political. 

Patrisse Cullors, one of the leaders of the Black Lives Matter movement:  "Alongside Black-led organizations around the nation, Black Lives Matter invested heavily in this election... We want something for our vote. We want to be heard and our agenda to be prioritized." 

From https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-matters-2020/:

"Yet again, Black folks did nothing short of saving our country. From coast to coast, our movement delivered record turnout in the general election. Now, we’ve got Georgia on our minds."

That's a good way to lose support from the millions that voted against your candidates.  Do you really expect BLM to have much more than 19%  support from Republicans (from Pew as of September) without being non-partisan?  I don't care for either party, but I'm not hopeful much will change without support from both sides.

What does it take to get this thread shut down?

I suppose that the thread was Love one another v BLM. The point is that BLM demonstrations were responsible for ending lockdowns in many states. One cannot support lockdowns and support BLM demonstrations and rioting from anarchists. It had a massive effect on lockdowns. And I suppose one could ask where is the love when mass demonstrations were allowed during a pandemic because their message received support in high places? And isn't that the point? I tend to use a CW Mills sociological imagination in all this. I just analyze even when my analysis goes against the grain.

 

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6 hours ago, why me said:

I agree with you about Angela. I voted for her on the Gus Hall ticket when she ran for vice president. Her writings are classics. Likewise for Cornell West. What most people do not understand is that the Marxists often were critical of Obama for his pro business policies and his neglect of the black working class and the working class in general. West called him a neoliberal who served big business. In the seventies the stress was on uniting all races against the capital power structure and the system that it created. There was no identity politics just class politics. What was that slogan? Workers of the World, Unite. It said nothing about color.

Yes that was it- and what we "New Left" was trying to pull off was unification between students and workers.  I wonder where that fantasy came from.  And Gus Hall was seen more along the lines of a classic, establishment Soviet Union politician than one who related to the New Left.  But I think Angela agreed to run with him simply to advance Communism- I think probably Kamala Harris had to compromise to run with...  a DEMOCRAT?  ;)  But after all, in a few missed heart beats all that could change.

We in the New Left were actually more Maoists- at least I was.  Since the notion of freedom and individual rights were seen as bourgeois, and since it was assumed that individuals were simply automatons programmed by their culture, the objective was to first change the culture to program the residents as desired.  And the "Cultural Revolution" had to happen by any means necessary - after all as Lenin said, to make an omelette you have to break eggs.  But I don't want to make this political- this is about history as far as I am concerned

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1 hour ago, why me said:

I suppose that the thread was Love one another v BLM. The point is that BLM demonstrations were responsible for ending lockdowns in many states. One cannot support lockdowns and support BLM demonstrations and rioting from anarchists. It had a massive effect on lockdowns. And I suppose one could ask where is the love when mass demonstrations were allowed during a pandemic because their message received support in high places? And isn't that the point? I tend to use a CW Mills sociological imagination in all this. I just analyze even when my analysis goes against the grain.

 

Holy cow!  Man, this is practically in code, but as far as I understand your nuances, I agree.  Didn't know you liked Mills....  his stuff fits well with Pragmatism I think...

 

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9 hours ago, gopher said:

just like white supremacy is a silly boogeyman 

I reject this characterisation and also the apparent underlying need to produce an equivalency whenever talking about partisan weakness.

White supremacy is a historical fact on the USA and it was embedded in its founding documents. It tore apart the nation and even after the war it continued to be a blight on our nation's character. The Civil Rights Act was less than 60 years ago. There's ample evidence that since then we've still had major problems with systemic racism.

There's no comparison. White supremacy a silly boogeyman? No, it's a reasonably expected issue that we must continue to work on.

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14 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

I reject this characterisation and also the apparent underlying need to produce an equivalency whenever talking about partisan weakness.

White supremacy is a historical fact on the USA and it was embedded in its founding documents. It tore apart the nation and even after the war it continued to be a blight on our nation's character. The Civil Rights Act was less than 60 years ago. There's ample evidence that since then we've still had major problems with systemic racism.

There's no comparison. White supremacy a silly boogeyman? No, it's a reasonably expected issue that we must continue to work on.

As with "racism" the term "white supremacy" carries broader or narrower meanings in different circles. To some it means intentional hate and to others it means policy (formal and informal, conscious and unconscious) where whites enjoy the advantage of holding power and resources across the board.

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