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"Love One Another" v. "Black Lives Matter"


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1 minute ago, Rain said:

I don't see them as a "verses".  They are 2 different things to me.  One is focusing on poor treatment of a specific race.  The other is showing love for all.  Both good messages.

The problem with the divisiveness is separate to me from the message.

 

Thank you! Coming from me, I don't think it'd be respected, like it is coming from you. 👍

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1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Just saw this story in the Deseret News:

The entire article is worth a read.

A few thoughts:

1. I really like this story, and the shirts, and the message.

2. I have really struggled with the "Black Lives Matter" message, both because of the violence and lawlessness that are often associated with it, and also because of the implicit and offensive and divisive accusation of racism that it carries.  I deeply resent the supposition that I think black lives don't matter.

3. I have watched dozens of videos of people chanting/screaming "Black lives matter!"  By and large, such expressions lean heavy on anger and resentment, even hatred.  Unfocused rage.  In contrast, the message "that everyone should love one another 'regardless of their skin color, culture or background,'" is beautiful, universal and true.

Kudos to BYU athletes!

Thanks,

-Smac

I think this is an excellent initiative on the part of the team, I think it would be incredible if they could have a dialogue with BLM to leverage the principles of good will with principles of good social policy. Both organizations working on both aspects would be a great blessing to all.

Granted, that is a lot to ask for a sports team, and perhaps for BLM's bad rep, but perhaps they could find someone with whom to partner, or who can pick up the ball so to speak ( :) ) in taking this initiative to the next level of influence.

Edited by CV75
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1 hour ago, smac97 said:

2. I have really struggled with the "Black Lives Matter" message, both because of the violence and lawlessness that are often associated with it, and also because of the implicit and offensive and divisive accusation of racism that it carries.  I deeply resent the supposition that I think black lives don't matter.

RE: #2, with love and unity (or trust), examples of racism (from both a personal and policy standpoint) can be effectively pointed out and received. In this way, the BYU Team can get involved with practical matters involving "skin color, culture or background” while Church members and others adopt the sentiment (per President Oaks) that Black lives matter while being open to policy measures that address more general problems with racism through due process, civilly and peacefully.

Edited by CV75
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1 hour ago, Rain said:

I don't see them as a "verses".  They are 2 different things to me.  One is focusing on poor treatment of a specific race.  The other is showing love for all.  Both good messages.

The problem with the divisiveness is separate to me from the message.

I think the only "verses" is the lawlessness and violence that is sometimes associated with the message.  I understand that there is frustration that leads to the lawlessness and violence, but the end result of that completely undermines the true message in my opinion, and it is in fact contrary to the message and works against it (and thus the "verses").  (Martin Luther King Jr. did it the right way).

Edited by InCognitus
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I have 2 responses when I hear someone say "Black Lives Matter".

My first and usual go-to is: I know

My second is:  and so do white and red and yellow and brown and every other color there is.  All lives matter.  

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1 hour ago, Rain said:

I don't see them as a "verses".  They are 2 different things to me.  One is focusing on poor treatment of a specific race.  The other is showing love for all.  Both good messages.

The problem with the divisiveness is separate to me from the message.

It is really wonderful to be able to express the universal language of love (brotherly/sisterly kind).  Along with this is the admonition to go the extra mile.  Which will motivate peace seekers to find ways of removing barriers and misunderstandings and overcoming insensitivity in certain cultures.

On the other hand, the message of bLM is stridently angry and demanding.  Its use of the clenched fist icon is too closely associated with militant communism.  There are too many instances of "protesters" walking by sidewalk cafes and telling (ordering) patrons to chant various slogans in support of their demonstrations.  A few have refused even though it is obvious they are NOT racists, white supremacists or anything like that.

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1 minute ago, Ahab said:

I have 2 responses when I hear someone say "Black Lives Matter".

My first and usual go-to is: I know

My second is:  and so do white and red and yellow and brown and every other color there is.  All lives matter.  

The problem is that the "protesters" will get violently angry if you were to say "All lives matter."

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12 minutes ago, longview said:

The problem is that the "protesters" will get violently angry if you were to say "All lives matter."

I don't hang around protestors so that is not my problem.

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1 hour ago, Rain said:

I don't see them as a "verses".  They are 2 different things to me.  One is focusing on poor treatment of a specific race.  The other is showing love for all.  Both good messages.

The problem with the divisiveness is separate to me from the message.

BLM is undermining its effectiveness as an agent of policy change through the promulgation of contention. The sport team is not (yet) engaged in policy change as it encourages brotherhood. When the "v" keeps the focus on rage vs love, policy gets lost. Too many good people fall prey to anger and shoot themselves in the foot in seeking fair redress, and just as many good people think that love is enough as they unwittingly maintain the status quo that facilitates the offences that frustrate their fellow beings.

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36 minutes ago, longview said:

The problem is that the "protesters" will get violently angry if you were to say "All lives matter."

A level-headed person would explain why/how Black lives matter in an immediately unique way, just as Mormon lives mattered in the Governor Boggs era and telling a Mormon in that crisis that "all lives matter" would be downplaying the particular problem at hand. In either case, successful dialogue is ideal and yields the best chance for resolution.

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18 minutes ago, Kevin Christensen said:

I think BLM is important and inspiring.

Hopefully they will adopt a posture and strategy that "inviteth" white people to critically look at the policies that create inequities along racial lines. If they are getting bad press on a national scale from small local samples, they need to borrow some privilege from their white allies to get more objective coverage. The reputation is bad for a reason; either the news provides an accurate representation (in which case racial equity needs to get another sponsor), or the representation is manipulated to maintain the dominant power structure, which is white whichever party is involved.

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42 minutes ago, CV75 said:

A level-headed person would explain why/how Black lives matter in an immediately unique way, just as Mormon lives mattered in the Governor Boggs era and telling a Mormon in that crisis that "all lives matter" would be downplaying the particular problem at hand. In either case, successful dialogue is ideal and yields the best chance for resolution.

I think this is correct that a level headed person would explain this, but that doesn't mean that others will understand it.  Sometimes our own obstinance or blindness gets in the way no matter how well it is explained.  Sometimes we lack the experience to understand it.   That's why you often get the "all lives matter" line.  It's definitely a 2 way street and I'm not sure how to get people to do that.  Maybe the message of the BYU sports team can help people to do their part in expressing or understanding the BLM message. 

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I think people need to stop mix-and-matching "Black Lives Matter" (the organisation) with "Black lives matter", (the mindset that the lives of Black people matter).

 

Doing that just brings links to what BLM has been know for in the past.

For instance compare the page that until a few months ago was on the BLM (organisation) website https://web.archive.org/web/20200822193504/https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/ with the current version https://blacklivesmatter.com/about/

They've gone from an organisation that looks like they are putting hard divides in between them and everyone else that isn't a member, as well as some things thinks that aren't Black related at all.

They now appear to be an organisation that is more aligned with "Black lives matter" (the mindset) rather than the "Black Lives Matter" (no one else is helping so we have to do it alone in a forceful way) movement.


It now seems much closer to love-one-another than it did before.

 

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2 hours ago, Ahab said:

I have 2 responses when I hear someone say "Black Lives Matter".

My first and usual go-to is: I know

My second is:  and so do white and red and yellow and brown and every other color there is.  All lives matter.  

When you look down your nose upon the "Black Lives Matter" movement, and argue that Red Lives and White Lives matter, I urge you to read Amazing Grace : William Wilberforce and the Heroic Campaign to End Slavery by Eric Metaxas, which discusses the end of slavery transportation in the British Empire (it went on for another 60 years in the US).  Hundreds of years of Arab slavery of Africans, resulting in the forced transportation to the US. is a remarkably difficult offense to forget. 

I suppose if there was a march to eradicate AIDS you'd be there with a "What about Diabetes?" sign.

Edited by Bob Crockett
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3 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

When you look down your nose upon the "Black Lives Matter" movement, and argue that Red Lives and White Lives matter, I urge you to read Amazing Grace : William Wilberforce and the Heroic Campaign to End Slavery by Eric Metaxas, which discusses the end of slavery transportation in the British Empire (it went on for another 60 years in the US).  Hundreds of years of Arab slavery of Africans, resulting in the forced transportation to the US. is a remarkably difficult offense to forget. 

I suppose if there was a march to eradicate AIDS you'd be there with a "What about Diabetes?" sign.

If what people with black skin want to be treated as if the color of their skin doesn't make any difference, and all they really want is to matter as much as anyone else non-specifically, they're already getting that kind of treatment from me.

On the other hand, if what people with black skin want is is to be treated as if they matter more than any other kind of people, they will probably keep protesting forever because they are never going to be treated that way by me and many other people.

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2 minutes ago, Ahab said:

If what people with black skin want to be treated as if the color of their skin doesn't make any difference, and all they really want is to matter as much as anyone else non-specifically, they're already getting that kind of treatment from me.

On the other hand, if what people with black skin want is is to be treated as if they matter more than any other kind of people, they will probably keep protesting forever because they are never going to be treated that way by me and many other people.

Do you ever feel it's life or death when you get pulled over by police?

When you answer that question, that is your answer. 

They of course don't want to be treated better, they want to be treated the same. 

If you get pulled over do you get nervous on where to put your hands? 

This might answer another question.

 

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2 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Do you ever feel it's life or death when you get pulled over by police?

Yes.  Ever looked like an Arab?  Walk in my shoes.

 

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14 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

When you look down your nose upon the "Black Lives Matter" movement, and argue that Red Lives and White Lives matter, I urge you to read Amazing Grace : William Wilberforce and the Heroic Campaign to End Slavery by Eric Metaxas, which discusses the end of slavery transportation in the British Empire (it went on for another 60 years in the US).  Hundreds of years of Arab slavery of Africans, resulting in the forced transportation to the US. is a remarkably difficult offense to forget. 

I suppose if there was a march to eradicate AIDS you'd be there with a "What about Diabetes?" sign.

This!!!

And might I add, this photo that says it all. 

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