"Love One Another" v. "Black Lives Matter"

[Thinking]

On 11/6/2020 at 2:14 PM, Ahab said:

My first and usual go-to is: I know

My second is:  and so do white and red and yellow and brown and every other color there is.  All lives matter.  

Sometimes it is necessary to focus on one specific group because until its lives matter, we can't say all lives matter.

The concept of Black Lives Matter is good, but some in the movement have lost their way, or the movement has been hijacked by those who just want to cause trouble.

[pogi]

52 minutes ago, Thinking said:

Sometimes it is necessary to focus on one specific group because until its lives matter, we can't say all lives matter.

The concept of Black Lives Matter is good, but some in the movement have lost their way, or the movement has been hijacked by those who just want to cause trouble.

If we take it to the extreme, imagine protests in Germany at the onset of the war with large agitated groups chanting "Jewish lives matter".  I wonder how many today would look back and condemn such sentiment, demanding that "all lives matter". 

Edited November 11, 2020 by pogi

[mgy401]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

If we take it to the extreme, imagine protests in Germany at the onset of the war with large agitated groups chanting "Jewish lives matter".  I wonder how many today would look back and condemn such sentiment, demanding that "all lives matter". 

Are we really comparing the situation of German Jews in 1939, with the situation of American Blacks in 2020?

Seriously?

Edited November 11, 2020 by mgy401

[Rivers]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

If we take it to the extreme, imagine protests in Germany at the onset of the war with large agitated groups chanting "Jewish lives matter".  I wonder how many today would look back and condemn such sentiment, demanding that "all lives matter". 

Blacks in America aren’t being systematically placed in concentration camps and murdered. Such a comparison is insulting to the Jews who actually went through the holocaust.

[pogi]

34 minutes ago, mgy401 said:

Are we really comparing the situation of German Jews in 1939, with the situation of American Blacks in 2020?

Seriously?

33 minutes ago, Rivers said:

Blacks in America aren’t being systematically placed in concentration camps and murdered. Such a comparison is insulting to the Jews who actually went through the holocaust.

Maybe you guys missed the preface - "if we take it to the extreme..."

My point was not to compare the situation of blacks to Jews.  The point was to suggest that the "all lives matter" mantra and rebuttal might be missing the boat.  Of course all lives matter, but sometimes it is appropriate to single-out and highlight the condition of a specific group - that is the point.  The point is NOT to suggest that only black lives matter, or that only Jewish lives matter.  How is that not clear to people?   I used an extreme example to make the point, because people seem to be missing it elsewhere.  I was hoping that it would dawn on people that, maybe it actually can be appropriate to single out a group.   It would be ridiculous to respond in rebuttal with "all lives matter" to the chant "Jewish lives matter" given that context.  Context matters.  That is all I am saying.  People seem to be missing the context.  

 

Edited November 11, 2020 by pogi

[CV75]

5 hours ago, Jared Livesey said:

The question is loaded because the claim that blacks are disproportionately harmed by law enforcement on the basis of race is not a shared observation, but a contestable claim.

Not to my original interlocutor. You seem to have conflated "loaded" and "hypothetical" with a question grounded in a rapport and shared observation, and then ignored this context in interjecting a question of your own.

[Vanguard]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

Maybe you guys missed the preface - "if we take it to the extreme..."

My point was not to compare the situation of blacks to Jews.  The point was to suggest that the "all lives matter" mantra and rebuttal might be missing the boat.  Of course all lives matter, but sometimes it is appropriate to single-out and highlight the condition of a specific group - that is the point.  The point is NOT to suggest that only black lives matter, or that only Jewish lives matter.  How is that not clear to people?   I used an extreme example to make the point, because people seem to be missing it elsewhere.  I was hoping that it would dawn on people that, maybe it actually can be appropriate to single out a group.   It would be ridiculous to respond in rebuttal with "all lives matter" to the chant "Jewish lives matter" given that context.  Context matters.  That is all I am saying.  People seem to be missing the context.  

 

But within the Jewish context it was obvious they had been singled out and as a result of that simple fact (their being Jewish) they were forced to endure the horrors they did. When others claim Black lives matter, what exactly is their claim and what are it's merits? While I agree Black lives matter, the statistics within the proper context do not bare out the need for the claim.

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, pogi said:

If we take it to the extreme, imagine protests in Germany at the onset of the war with large agitated groups chanting "Jewish lives matter".  I wonder how many today would look back and condemn such sentiment, demanding that "all lives matter". 

excellent point

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

Maybe you guys missed the preface - "if we take it to the extreme..."

My point was not to compare the situation of blacks to Jews.  The point was to suggest that the "all lives matter" mantra and rebuttal might be missing the boat.  Of course all lives matter, but sometimes it is appropriate to single-out and highlight the condition of a specific group - that is the point.  The point is NOT to suggest that only black lives matter, or that only Jewish lives matter.  How is that not clear to people?   I used an extreme example to make the point, because people seem to be missing it elsewhere.  I was hoping that it would dawn on people that, maybe it actually can be appropriate to single out a group.   It would be ridiculous to respond in rebuttal with "all lives matter" to the chant "Jewish lives matter" given that context.  Context matters.  That is all I am saying.  People seem to be missing the context.  

 

my bold

Well, there's the mask thing people don't seem to get as well..... 

Edited November 12, 2020 by Tacenda

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, why me said:

Now that Biden has won, it seems that BLM went away. The demonstrations more or less ended with his victory. It should be obvious to all that the BLM demonstrations were just an act to harm Trump. I don't think that we will see them again anytime soon. It was all political.

I think that being a police officer in the USA is very stressful. Not an easy job because everyday could be your last. Does color of skin matter? I only know that in the USA if the police stop you one must obey the officer. If not, trouble can happen. Also, many police departments are multi-racial. It is not just a white/black thing. It is more or less a job thing. But it is a miracle that the demonstrations stopped, or is it?

Love one another is a good commandment but it has been lost for quite some time now. It is not about bring people together but about separating people according to race, creed and gender or anything else that may divide humans into subgroups.  To love one another we just need to see the human in our being.

The protests were never about the President. The President-Elect does have some reforms on his platform to mitigate police excess but police reform is not a national problem because police are not run at a national level and the federal government’s ability to make reforms is limited due to constitutional restrictions.

Police work being hard is a horrible excuse for the excesses of police. Police work is not the most dangerous job in America. That people being stopped are required to obey the officer is part of the problem when they disproportionately stop minorities. Should I tell the story of a friend of mine from college who opened up my eyes? He is African American and his dad was very wealthy and had a love of expensive cars. His son took them on business trips across the state and he never made a trip to another city without getting pulled over at least once and usually more than once. There was an implicit assumption at each stop that he had no right to be in that car (assuming stolen or whatever) and they harassed him and questioned him. He lost it once and started yelling because this was the second stop that day and he was tired of it and got a weapon shoved in his face in response to a purely verbal upset. Policing is discriminatory in most of America.

The idea that BLM is exclusionary is a joke. They wanted white people and other minorities to come to the protests and the unity you saw in the hardened survivors of the Portland protesters (washing each other’s faces after getting tear gassed, assisting the injured) was not defined by race. It was a common goal that united them.

The Portland police on the other hand..... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/20/portland-police-race-reform-crime . That article is from 2014, way before this. Portland also has a weird and horrific history of racism. It is the whitest major city in America demographically and that was deliberate.

In 1844 the territory specifically banned slavery but also ordered all Blacks to leave the state under penalty of being flogged every six months until you do leave. The state constitution forbid Blacks from coming to the state, living in the state, or owning land in the state. The idea was the one the KKK and the modern white supremacists adore: a racially pure white community. Oregon held off on ratifying the amendments giving equal rights until well into the 1900s, long after they were law. They are believed to have had the highest KKK per capita population of anywhere. https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/07/racist-history-portland/492035/

Portland is politically regressive but a large portion of it is racially regressive and deliberately so. The police are definitely one of those groups. Sadly this is true in a lot of America. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/fbi-white-supremacists-in-law-enforcement

Not about Trump and not about national politics at all except how the President sent federal troops in and exacerbated the situation. The main thing that hurt the President’s campaign (if anything did) was the Trafalgar Square attack in D.C. where he cleared out peaceful protesters with tear gas and riot gear equipped cops. An Australian news crew was assaulted and the clergy at a local church driven out by the attack. Ironically the goal was to create a path for the President to get to that church which he used without permission. The attack had no rhyme or reason around it other than a photoshoot and the making of a tasteless propaganda video and possibly to soothe the President’s ego as he was being insulted mercilessly for hiding in the White House bunker when protesters came to the White House before. With the BLM protests you have the pretext of danger due to riots and the like happening at the same time and the government can get away with it as black people being attacked has almost always been taken less seriously by most Americans. Maybe none of it hurt him though. Recent years have shown that many have an appetite for such tactics.

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, Rivers said:

Blacks in America aren’t being systematically placed in concentration camps and murdered. Such a comparison is insulting to the Jews who actually went through the holocaust.

I think waiting until it gets that bad would make the problem more difficult to solve. Using comparisons does mean there is an equivalent in intensity. Also Africans learned what it meant to be “Rhineland Bastards” while living in Germany in the 30s and 40s so it is not as strained a comparison as you make it out to be.

[The Nehor]

10 hours ago, smac97 said:

Perhaps I misunderstood you.  When you said "And those have the backing of official sanction," I took that as "And those {extensive and well-documented instances of police bullying, threatening, intimidating, etc.} have the backing of official sanction."  

If you are claiming that "instances of police bullying, threatening, intimidating" have been officially sanctioned, then yes, I'm presenting a CFR.

Thanks,

-Smac

Police, by definition, have official sanction. I was mostly pointing out this gives them a wide latitude for abuse. As for specific cases of police endorsing racist decisions here is one from a few years back: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/mar/01/exclusive-video-shows-portland-officers-made-deal-with-far-right-group-leader

There were a lot more when I was watching the protests. You had cases with the police giving head’s up info to the White Supremacist Proud Boys of their next moves so they could get out of the way and the protesters would not know.  Here is another fun incident in Portland’s past that definitely qualifies as racially motivated harassment: https://apnews.com/article/1a9cf8afe15772edc0f83e918ab088c6

Edited November 12, 2020 by The Nehor

[Calm]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Using comparisons does mean there is an equivalent in intensity

Missing a "not"?

[Calm]

On 11/8/2020 at 9:34 AM, 3DOP said:

think guys like Storm Rider and I feel sometimes like BLM people hate us. This would be more for what we don't believe (their "untenable theory"), than for being white

If it is unreasonable to assume blacks are having issues such as being stopped more, more likely to be  a suspect, more likely to go to jail (per capital rate, not absolute numbers) with the system due to hate, isn't it also unreasonable to assume the BLM activists hate you?  That instead something else is going on?

Edited November 12, 2020 by Calm

[Thinking]

3 hours ago, Vanguard said:

While I agree Black lives matter, the statistics within the proper context do not bare out the need for the claim.

Will you give us the statistics within the proper context?

[Tacenda]

6 hours ago, Rivers said:

Blacks in America aren’t being systematically placed in concentration camps and murdered. Such a comparison is insulting to the Jews who actually went through the holocaust.

Context matters, blacks are not now being hung on tree limbs, or whipped, raped, or stripped of their dignities, but they are still being harmed by some people out there. 

Think again that there is no comparison: https://www.haaretz.com/.premium-from-freedom-to-slavery-1.5245587

I don't think these two peoples should even be separated. But lumped together in the gross atrocities in the span of life on earth. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Police, by definition, have official sanction. I

Hard not to view it at the very least acceptable when those culpable get promotions, etc.

Quote

Reeves, according to deposition records, also had deleted his Feb. 25, 2017, text message exchange with Benson and maintained that there had been no homophobic or racist remarks sent between them, according to court records.

Fesser and his lawyer already had the text messages from Benson’s phone and knew that to be false.

It’s unclear the level of discipline Reeves received. He was promoted to sergeant in March 2018.

Timeus, the police chief, said in a deposition that he heard his friend Benson use a racist slur at least a “half a dozen” times. Timeus admitted to having used the racist slur himself but said he couldn’t recall if it was when he was police chief or if he used it when referring to Fesser’s cases, according to his deposition transcript.

Timeus retired in October 2017 amid allegations that he drove drunk while off duty. He received more than $123,000 in a separation agreement.

Stradley resigned as a West Linn lieutenant on Jan. 16, 2018, and started working the next day as a police trainer at the state’s basic police academy for the Department of Public Safety Standards and Training, where he’s a supervisor.

https://www.oregonlive.com/crime/2020/02/west-linn-to-pay-600000-to-settle-wrongful-arrest-racial-discrimination-suit-stemming-from-former-chiefs-favor-for-a-friend.html

[Calm]

28 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

stripped of their dignities,

Being falsely arrested and being stopped for driving while black qualifies in that category, imo.

Quote

I don't think these two peoples should even be separated. But lumped together in the gross atrocities in the span of life on earth. 

1) the dynamics of bigotry is different for each group and both deserved to not have their experiences generalized and 2) there is a history of bigotry as well as cooperation in civil rights activism between the groups (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_American–Jewish_relations, https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/black-jewish-relations-in-the-united-states ) and that would be hard to examine if lumped together.

But they are definitely both minorities/racial-ethnic groups that have suffered great oppression and hardship and death because of bigotry.

Edited November 12, 2020 by Calm

[3DOP]

21 minutes ago, Calm said:

If it is unreasonable to assume blacks are having issues such as being stopped more, more likely to be  a suspect, more likely to go to jail (per capital rate, not absolute numbers) with the system due to hate, isn't it also unreasonable to assume the BLM activists hate you?  That instead something else is going on?

Calm, Hi.

I would rather not analyze my words now, although they were carefully measured, and I can go defensive if you or anyone would like. I do not doubt that in some respect I have been inconsistent, in thought, word, and deed, if you think so. Perhaps "something else...going on", means love and peace and good will towards all, even Storm Rider or me or my law enforcement son who seems to me to be good to everyone regardless of race, is what BLM is all about? That is a big pill...for me...at this moment. 

It seems hard to believe BLM folk like my son, or Storm, or me. Because of what we think. I was trying to discreetly defend Storm Rider, who you announced to be on "ignore". I do not want to alienate you, Calm. We have been friends too long, and you will always have a place in my heart, no matter what. These are emotional times and issues. 

Regards and best hopes and wishes always, etc.

Rory 

 

[Tacenda]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

Being falsely arrested and being stopped for driving while black qualifies in that category, imo.

Oh, how did I not see that? So true! And being white and pulled over maybe 3 times in my lifetime, I can't imagine twice in a day for no reason just for driving a too nice a car.

[Tacenda]

5 minutes ago, 3DOP said:

Calm, Hi.

I would rather not analyze my words now, although they were carefully measured, and I can go defensive if you or anyone would like. I do not doubt that in some respect I have been inconsistent, in thought, word, and deed, if you think so. Perhaps "something else...going on", means love and peace and good will towards all, even Storm Rider or me or my law enforcement son who seems to me to be good to everyone regardless of race, is what BLM is all about? That is a big pill...for me...at this moment. 

It seems hard to believe BLM folk like my son, or Storm, or me. Because of what we think. I was trying to discreetly defend Storm Rider, who you announced to be on "ignore". I do not want to alienate you, Calm. We have been friends too long, and you will always have a place in my heart, no matter what. These are emotional times and issues. 

Regards and best hopes and wishes always, etc.

Rory 

 

We're just talking about the bad cops and possibly the precinct in different towns that grow racists. I love our first responders!! The police are why we are a civilized country, I believe. I'm very thankful for them, so so thankful. I pray your son will not be harmed in the name of the BLM groups. 

I think, like the bad eggs in the police force, there are definitely bad eggs in the BLM. Most of which are just your everyday people that saw an ad, me, that said where and when they were going to protest around town. It happened in my small community. I didn't go, but maybe I should have. That is how most were in those protests, too bad there were those that went town to town that were inciting riots, to make the rest look so bad. 

[Calm]

56 minutes ago, 3DOP said:

Perhaps "something else...going on", means love and peace and good will towards all,

Doesn't have to be hate or love...lots of other motivations in there, good and bad.  There are also numerous people involved. I think it unwise to judge either police or BLM as monolithic. 
 

When the shooting occurred in Provo. one leader of the march was on tape talking about the shooting as if it was a good thing imo, he would be able to get many more down to protest while another not only encouraged the protestors to disperse peacefully, but worked to get witnesses to report to the police what they saw or recorded. 

And please don't feel you need to defend yourself...I am just presenting another way to look at this...how I see it, I don't require anyone else to agree with me, as nice as that would be.

Edited November 12, 2020 by Calm

[Vanguard]

49 minutes ago, Thinking said:

Will you give us the statistics within the proper context?

By now we're all familiar with the WaPo stats indicating that in 2019 about 10-20 unarmed black men were shot and killed by police officers. This number includes those men who brandished what was thought to be a firearm. When accounting for this, the number goes well into the low single digit range of Black men shot and killed who were without a firearm on their person and who did not provoke a lethal response from the police department. This in my estimation is far from a genocide on black men and especially when you consider the 10s (100s?) of millions of police contacts made each year. So much of the reporting and the response from a significant segment of the public over the past year disregards this context. Additionally and as I'm sure we're in agreement on, in those incidents when black men were literally in possession of a lethal weapon, the police are usually accused of irresponsible behavior if not outright racism. In other words, the accusations are context-less (read: Michael Brown).

BLM and other like-minded organizations have affirmed this alleged wanton killing of black men by police officers is so egregious that the number would qualify as genocidal. This is their affirmation. If it is yours, then it is incumbent on you to show the stats of such a claim. At that point we can discuss context further. What is your position?  

[Calm]

For accuracy...

Shootings are not the only method of police killings.

This site also includes beatings, tasers, etc. by year, by state, by race, on duty/off duty, whether officer was charged, gender:

https://mappingpoliceviolence.org

For 2019, for unarmed blacks (men and women) I believe there were 30 listed so far (may go up over time).

Edited November 12, 2020 by Calm

[Calm]

58 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

BLM and other like-minded organizations have affirmed this alleged wanton killing of black men by police officers is so egregious that the number would qualify as genocidal.

CFR please that it is solely the killings by police that some black activists have referred to as genocidal. This is a serious request as I am curious if some have as I have only seen it used to refer to full picture of the impact of systemic racism in law enforcement, which is much, much more than just killings by police. 

For example:

Quote

It said whether committed in times of peace or war, genocide is a crime under international law. International law, as outlined by the United Nations in the Geneva Convention, defines genocide as “acts committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such.” Those actions include “killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.”

https://truthout.org/articles/we-should-invoke-the-genocide-convention-in-response-to-fatal-police-shootings/

Edited November 12, 2020 by Calm