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"Love One Another" v. "Black Lives Matter"


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2 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

True.  But it's not just white fragility.  It's fragility all around.  To point out that murderers in this country are far and away disproportionately black is too an uncomfortable truth that only offends almost everyone.  Pointing out the black on black murder is an offense, as well.  Those murder rates change, I'd wager, as soon as we dispel the perception of imbalance (not that there is not imbalance).  Preaching a religion of anti-racism might contribute though, so I maintain.  

Educating about white fragility and anti-racism is not preaching a religion. Reading up on these topics by reliable sources and talking with people who do not use them as hammer is very helpful to the open-minded.

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10 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Those murder rates change, I'd wager, as soon as we dispel the perception of imbalance (not that there is not imbalance). 

Why?  If it is just perception of imbalance and not actual imbalance, why souls It change?  Maybe I am not understanding you.

Edited by Calm
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32 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Educating about white fragility and anti-racism is not preaching a religion. Reading up on these topics by reliable sources and talking with people who do not use them as hammer is very helpful to the open-minded.

I'd maintain the John McWhorter's take is perhaps among the more reasonable.  I think he points out nicely how it's a fairly religious-like movement and topic of our day.  And, with that, I'd say that's a problem for the push.  We need far less dogma and far more willingness to engage.  

Here is where he first made the observation, not directly linked to BLM because it was before BLM had much grounding.  

https://www.thedailybeast.com/antiracism-our-flawed-new-religion

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35 minutes ago, Calm said:

Why?  If it is just perception of imbalance and not actual imbalance, why souls It change?  Maybe I am not understanding you.

I don't know.  I"m guessing.  This is how I see it.  It just so happens that murders happen largely in large urban environments.  It just so happens that these locations are largely filled with minority races.  I mean it sounds that way.  But in reality none of that just so happens.  Housing policies were heavily racist.  We cannot overnight change the deeply entrenched policies and practices that have gotten us to where we are.  As people feel mistreated, forgotten, or unsupported, I'd suggest, these are demotivating factors.  As people feel like they lack opportunity they tend to accept that they do not deserve opportunity.  BUt, I'd guess, as we change this more and more (which I do think major progresses have been made) everyone starts to find themselves on equal footing.  As that happens, there is less need for bucking the system.  I'm being vague and short because I don't know that much and I accept this is all just thoughts formed in my head.  

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1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

I'd maintain the John McWhorter's take is perhaps among the more reasonable.  I think he points out nicely how it's a fairly religious-like movement and topic of our day.  And, with that, I'd say that's a problem for the push.  We need far less dogma and far more willingness to engage.  

Here is where he first made the observation, not directly linked to BLM because it was before BLM had much grounding.  

https://www.thedailybeast.com/antiracism-our-flawed-new-religion

Did he have anything to say about the benefits of educating oneself on the topics of white fragility and anti-racism? That is what I'm talking about, not ideological opinion pieces.

Edited by CV75
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6 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Did he have anything to say about the benefits of educating oneself on the topics of white fragility and anti-racism? That is what I'm talking about, not ideological opinion pieces.

Sure.  I thought I'd point out his first piece put out from years back, which specifically address anti-racism.   He's written and has engaged on these matters quite a bit.   

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3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

There is no way to communicate that African Americans (or minorities in general) suffer disproportionate mistreatment in the United States without offending almost everyone. They have tried many different approaches and they all failed to get by the real problem with the discussion: https://www.amazon.com/White-Fragility-People-About-Racism/dp/0807047414/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=White+fragility&qid=1605278250&sr=8-3

There is no rhetorical way around it. The very problem existing hurts people’s feelings.

According to this DOJ study (https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=5137), crime victimization is related to poverty.   The report says the crime rate is the same for poor blacks as it is for poor whites. 

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1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

Sure.  I thought I'd point out his first piece put out from years back, which specifically address anti-racism.   He's written and has engaged on these matters quite a bit.   

I'll have to look at his books -- all you are sharing here are his opinion pieces about other people's research, which comes across as religious-like fervor. Is there one you have read that you would recommend?

Your link is to a July 2020 article (years back???).

From Wikipedia, he seems to come from the Bill Cosby school of "black attitudes hold black people back" (a prevalent attitude in early 2000s, expressed on occasion even by President Obama). Which is fine if based on a deeper dive into how those attitudes came about, which subsequent research seems to have been able todo.

Edited by CV75
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1 hour ago, CV75 said:

I'll have to look at his books -- all you are sharing here are his opinion pieces about other people's research, which comes across as religious-like fervor. Is there one you have read that you would recommend?

You asked if he had any comments about white fragility.  He offered his critique of that book.  I enjoyed his perspective there.  

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Your link is to a July 2020 article (years back???).

I was talking about the previous one I linked.  

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

From Wikipedia, he seems to come from the Bill Cosby school of "black attitudes hold black people back" (a prevalent attitude in early 2000s, expressed on occasion even by President Obama). Which is fine if based on a deeper dive into how those attitudes came about, which subsequent research seems to have been able todo.

I"m not sure what you're looking for exactly.  I brought up John McWhorter because I think he has a good perspective, even-handed approach.  It'd be silly to sum up his perspective as "black attitudes hold black people back".  There are many others who hold similar views as he.  

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21 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

You asked if he had any comments about white fragility.  He offered his critique of that book.  I enjoyed his perspective there.  

I was talking about the previous one I linked.  

I"m not sure what you're looking for exactly.  I brought up John McWhorter because I think he has a good perspective, even-handed approach.  It'd be silly to sum up his perspective as "black attitudes hold black people back".  There are many others who hold similar views as he.  

Yes, thank you for your replies. I am looking for a book (or other publication) on research he's done on the topic, not just opinion pieces on others' research. I'm sure I can find them if you don't have a recommendation.

See here re: a summation of his perspective in his article titled, "What’s Holding Blacks Back? It’s black attitudes, not white racism, that’s to blame": https://www.city-journal.org/html/what’s-holding-blacks-back-12025.html

And yes, many hold similar views and express them in religious-like ways with such religious-like commitment! :)

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55 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Yes, thank you for your replies. I am looking for a book (or other publication) on research he's done on the topic, not just opinion pieces on others' research. I'm sure I can find them if you don't have a recommendation.

See here re: a summation of his perspective in his article titled, "What’s Holding Blacks Back? It’s black attitudes, not white racism, that’s to blame": https://www.city-journal.org/html/what’s-holding-blacks-back-12025.html

And yes, many hold similar views and express them in religious-like ways with such religious-like commitment! :)

I'm not following your comments on religion.  I meant to suggest itd be silly to sum up mcWhortets views on race as was suggested even though he does suggest there's no one to blame.  As he points out in the piece you linked the disproportion isn't quite like it dogmatically gets categorized as.  I like the info he relies on.  And I liked his response to the white fragility book.  No one as I've seen have done much more than comment on data and research.  

But again I think it's all fairly complicated, answers aren't easy and being complicated it's not either/or as in your either either us or against us.  As it is everyone agrees with the stated proposition that black live matter, they simply disagree with the religion and politics its created.  

  

  

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5 hours ago, CV75 said:

Did he have anything to say about the benefits of educating oneself on the topics of white fragility and anti-racism? That is what I'm talking about, not ideological opinion pieces.

You may enjoy this podcast. Mcwhorter and Glenn Loury. 

2:00 minute mark on white fragility.

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1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

I'm not following your comments on religion.  I meant to suggest itd be silly to sum up mcWhortets views on race as was suggested even though he does suggest there's no one to blame.  As he points out in the piece you linked the disproportion isn't quite like it dogmatically gets categorized as.  I like the info he relies on.  And I liked his response to the white fragility book.  No one as I've seen have done much more than comment on data and research.  

But again I think it's all fairly complicated, answers aren't easy and being complicated it's not either/or as in your either either us or against us.  As it is everyone agrees with the stated proposition that black live matter, they simply disagree with the religion and politics its created.  

Where religion and politics are key arenas where complicated things get figured out for social policy implementation, I think the outspoken need to engage in constructive dialogue, religious and political leaders need to facilitate that, and everyone can do both within our sphere of influence. Deprecating religion and politics, especially in a democratic republic, undermines all of that.

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10 hours ago, stemelbow said:

True.  But it's not just white fragility.  It's fragility all around.  To point out that murderers in this country are far and away disproportionately black is too an uncomfortable truth that only offends almost everyone.  Pointing out the black on black murder is an offense, as well.  Those murder rates change, I'd wager, as soon as we dispel the perception of imbalance (not that there is not imbalance).  Preaching a religion of anti-racism might contribute though, so I maintain.  

I think a better solution would be to end systemic racial poverty and remove discriminatory roadblocks to opportunity. I think that would bring the murder rate down more quickly than your suggestion.

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Those that are saying that racist behavior doesn't really happen much these days, are in for a shock, as I was while listening to this podcast. This could have wide spread racism, especially for the future, if it's not fixed. Not for just people of color but for women as well. https://radiowest.kuer.org/post/through-lens-coded-bias-0

Here's the preview: 

MIT researcher Joy Buolamwini was working with facial recognition software when she encountered a problem: The robot she was programming could not detect her own female, dark skinned face.

Shalini Kantayya’s documentary, Coded Bias, explores the fallout from Joy’s discovery that AI is neither racially nor gender neutral and introduces us to the rebels and misfits of data science. As the creators of the Algorithmic Justice League, Joy and her team work to increase awareness – including calling for legislation – about facial recognition technology that officials often use in surveillance, policing and much more. We'll talk with Shalini ahead of our screening about what happens when technology starts to encroach on our liberties, this Friday at noon.  

Please join us for our free online screening of Coded Bias followed by a Q&A with director Shalini Kantayya on Wednesday, Nov. 18 at 7 p.m. MST. You can find the link to the screening at UtahFilmCenter.org.

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18 hours ago, CV75 said:

Where religion and politics are key arenas where complicated things get figured out for social policy implementation, I think the outspoken need to engage in constructive dialogue, religious and political leaders need to facilitate that, and everyone can do both within our sphere of influence. Deprecating religion and politics, especially in a democratic republic, undermines all of that.

I'm not following your accusation of McWhorter preaching a religion.  I think hes made good sense and explains nicely why BLM and its associated movements have been very religious like.  I think he'd agree engaging in constructive dialogue is important and that's why the dogma of anti racism isn't all that helpful.  Anyway hes certainly not alone.  Some linked a conversation with Glen Lowry.  It's a problem this is largely religion and is political.  I cant help the religion and politics are far less about engaging in constructive dialogue and are more about dogma.  We have to push past the desire to spout off half the story and then dogmatically state the conclusions.  

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16 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I think a better solution would be to end systemic racial poverty and remove discriminatory roadblocks to opportunity. I think that would bring the murder rate down more quickly than your suggestion.

You basically said better what I intended.  I'm not in disagreement with this.  

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1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

I'm not following your accusation of McWhorter preaching a religion.  I think hes made good sense and explains nicely why BLM and its associated movements have been very religious like.  I think he'd agree engaging in constructive dialogue is important and that's why the dogma of anti racism isn't all that helpful.  Anyway hes certainly not alone.  Some linked a conversation with Glen Lowry.  It's a problem this is largely religion and is political.  I cant help the religion and politics are far less about engaging in constructive dialogue and are more about dogma.  We have to push past the desire to spout off half the story and then dogmatically state the conclusions.  

That is because I did not make that accusation. Both of them, especially in the clip that was shared by bskki, sound pretty dogmatic and pushing their dogma. Give me an example where either of them are engaging in constructive dialogue with parties with whom they do not agree. Clearly some/many individuals have difficulty engaging in constructive religious and political dialogue with parties with whom they do not agree, but as many do not. What do you recommend as an alternative setting for people to engage in constructive policy dialogue and debate, if not religious and political settings accessible to those outside of academic and think tank settings? What do you think of public access or even subscription media?

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5 hours ago, Tacenda said:

MIT researcher Joy Buolamwini was working with facial recognition software when she encountered a problem: The robot she was programming could not detect her own female, dark skinned face.

 

Because of the way it was originally programmed or something else?  

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5 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Those that are saying that racist behavior doesn't really happen much these days, are in for a shock, as I was while listening to this podcast. This could have wide spread racism, especially for the future, if it's not fixed. Not for just people of color but for women as well. https://radiowest.kuer.org/post/through-lens-coded-bias-0

Here's the preview: 

MIT researcher Joy Buolamwini was working with facial recognition software when she encountered a problem: The robot she was programming could not detect her own female, dark skinned face.

I don't understand. Are you saying she is locked out of her iPhone now?

 

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52 minutes ago, Calm said:

Because of the way it was originally programmed or something else?  

This is a problem. A lot of facial recognition software and things of that nature do much better with caucasian faces because that is who the majority of testing is done on. It is not intentionally racist (I hope).

Amulek, love the HomestarRunner avatar.

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4 hours ago, CV75 said:

That is because I did not make that accusation. Both of them, especially in the clip that was shared by bskki, sound pretty dogmatic and pushing their dogma.

How so? I've probably listened to it but havent listened since posted here. 

4 hours ago, CV75 said:

Give me an example where either of them are engaging in constructive dialogue with parties with whom they do not agree.

That is part of the problem...such is not happening from those critical of their take, forthe mostpart.  

4 hours ago, CV75 said:

Clearly some/many individuals have difficulty engaging in constructive religious and political dialogue with parties with whom they do not agree, but as many do not. What do you recommend as an alternative setting for people to engage in constructive policy dialogue and debate, if not religious and political settings accessible to those outside of academic and think tank settings? What do you think of public access or even subscription media?

Id be allover such dialogue.  I still think McWhorters response to white fragility a fairly good helpful piece.  Responses to the response?   I enjoyed his initial commentary pointing out the religion.  Responses?  I've seen some but I havent seen anything very helpful.  

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3 hours ago, Calm said:

Because of the way it was originally programmed or something else?  

I listened to the podcast last night and she said in order to get into it she had to go find a mask that portrayed her as white for it to recognize her. She grabbed the mask that Jason wore in the movie "Halloween".  And then it recognized her. That is when she researched and found that software like this only really recognized whites, and wouldn't people of color. But if you have the time, it's a really interesting podcast. It appears that it could affect a whole lot of people without them even realizing it, such as preventing them from getting what others have. But I'd have to listen again to get more details than this. It discriminated by way of eliminating or not recognizing certain people. I hope this helps. 

 

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2 hours ago, Amulek said:

I don't understand. Are you saying she is locked out of her iPhone now?

 

I should have quoted you with Calm. See my answer to Calm. Or listen to the podcast. :)

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