Covid, Race Relations, Environment, Etc. - Alarmism + Misappropriation = Secret Combinations?

[smac97]

I do not dispute the seriousness of the viral pandemic, but I have some serious reservations about governmental overreach, hysteria, economic injury through reflexive shutdowns, etc.

I do not dispute that Americans can and should improve race relations, including some modifications to governmental actions in relation thereto.  However, I have some serious concerns about the death of George Floyd being (mis)appropriated for ulterior purposes (anarchy, marxism, wanton violence and destruction, opportunistic looting, etc.).

I also believe we should be good stewards of the earth.  However, I am concerned about alarmism, wild predictions that are not borne out by data, misanthrophy, and other ill characteristics of extreme envirtonmentalism.  By way of illustration:

Quote

On behalf of environmentalists everywhere, I would like to formally apologize for the climate scare we created over the last 30 years. Climate change is happening. It’s just not the end of the world. It’s not even our most serious environmental problem. 

I may seem like a strange person to be saying all of this. I have been a climate activist for 20 years and an environmentalist for 30. 

But as an energy expert asked by Congress to provide objective expert testimony, and invited by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) to serve as Expert Reviewer of its next Assessment Report, I feel an obligation to apologize for how badly we environmentalists have misled the public.

Here are some facts few people know:

• Humans are not causing a “sixth mass extinction” 
• The Amazon is not “the lungs of the world”
• Climate change is not making natural disasters worse
• Fires have declined 25% around the world since 2003
• The amount of land we use for meat — humankind’s biggest use of land — has declined by an area nearly as large as Alaska
• The build-up of wood fuel and more houses near forests, not climate change, explain why there are more, and more dangerous, fires in Australia and California
• Carbon emissions are declining in most rich nations and have been declining in Britain, Germany, and France since the mid-1970s 
• Netherlands became rich not poor while adapting to life below sea level 
• We produce 25% more food than we need and food surpluses will continue to rise as the world gets hotter
• Habitat loss and the direct killing of wild animals are bigger threats to species than climate change
• Wood fuel is far worse for people and wildlife than fossil fuels
• Preventing future pandemics requires more not less “industrial” agriculture

I know that the above facts will sound like “climate denialism” to many people. But that just shows the power of climate alarmism. 

In reality, the above facts come from the best-available scientific studies, including those conducted by or accepted by the IPCC, the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations (FAO), the International Union for the Conservation of Nature (IUCN) and other leading scientific bodies. 

Some people will, when they read this imagine that I’m some right-wing anti-environmentalist. I’m not. At 17, I lived in Nicaragua to show solidarity with the Sandinista socialist revolution. At 23 I raised money for Guatemalan women’s cooperatives. In my early 20s I lived in the semi-Amazon doing research with small farmers fighting land invasions. At 26 I helped expose poor conditions at Nike factories in Asia. 
...
{L}ast year, things spiraled out of control. 

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez said “The world is going to end in twelve years if we don’t address climate change.” Britain’s most high-profile environmental group claimed “Climate Change Kills Children.” 

The world’s most influential green journalist, Bill McKibben, called climate change the “greatest challenge humans have ever faced” and said it would “wipe out civilizations.” 

Mainstream journalists reported, repeatedly, that the Amazon was “the lungs of the world,” and that deforestation was like a nuclear bomb going off.

As a result, half of the people surveyed around the world last year said they thought climate change would make humanity extinct. And in January, one out of five British children told pollsters they were having nightmares about climate change.

Whether or not you have children you must see how wrong this is. I admit I may be sensitive because I have a teenage daughter. After we talked about the science she was reassured. But her friends are deeply misinformed and thus, understandably, frightened. 

I thus decided I had to speak out. I knew that writing a few articles wouldn’t be enough. I needed a book to properly lay out all of the evidence. 

And so my formal apology for our fear-mongering comes in the form of my new book, Apocalypse Never: Why Environmental Alarmism Hurts Us All. 
...
Some highlights from the book:

• Factories and modern farming are the keys to human liberation and environmental progress 
• The most important thing for saving the environment is producing more food, particularly meat, on less land 
• The most important thing for reducing air pollution and carbon emissions is moving from wood to coal to petroleum to natural gas to uranium 
• 100% renewables would require increasing the land used for energy from today’s 0.5% to 50% 
• We should want cities, farms, and power plants to have higher, not lower, power densities
• Vegetarianism reduces one’s emissions by less than 4%
• Greenpeace didn’t save the whales, switching from whale oil to petroleum and palm oil did
• “Free-range” beef would require 20 times more land and produce 300% more emissions
• Greenpeace dogmatism worsened forest fragmentation of the Amazon
• The colonialist approach to gorilla conservation in the Congo produced a backlash that may have resulted in the killing of 250 elephants

Why were we all so misled?

That last question gave me pause.  Why is there so much shrill alarmism going on?  Why are these noble endeavors (limiting COVID, improving race relations, improving the environment) so heavily encumbered with groups and individuals seeking to misappropriate and exploit them for other, more nefarious purposes?

Are these misappropriations examples of how "secret combinations" come about?  From the Encyclopedia of Mormonism:

Quote

In latter-day scriptures, secret combinations are groups of conspirators who plot and initiate "works of darkness" for evil and selfish purposes. Secret combinations have existed since the days of Cain (Moses 5:51). Satan is their author (2 Ne. 26:22), power and gain are their motives (Ether 8:15, 25), and conspiracy is their method of operation (Hel. 6:22-24). Secret combinations may be brotherhoods, groups, societies, or governments. They operate in secrecy to perform evil acts for the purpose of gaining power over the minds and actions of people.

As the enemies of honest men and women governed by the rule of law, such secret combinations seek to subvert public virtue and legally constituted authority. They defile, defraud, murder, deceive, and destroy the elements of good government, religious or secular. Their goal is to seize power and to rule over all the people (3 Ne. 6:27-30), which results in the destruction of human freedom and agency and the paralysis of peaceful and just communities.

I am not saying that reasonable and measures responses to COVID, or peaceful protests about the death of George Floyd, or reasoned calls for improved environmental stewardship are "secret combinations."  I am wondering that the misappropriation and misuse of these legitimate issues for ulterior purposes are possible vectors whereby "secret combinations" can gain traction in society.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited June 30, 2020 by smac97

[Duncan]

Viruses will have humility either forced humility or otherwise. Humility to the fact that opening up too soon was a terrible idea, not wearing masks is a dumb, dumb practice or humility to the idea that paranoia drags it out and making it worse than it is for all the reasons listed above. You need balance and I don't know if mankind is achieving that.

[The Nehor]

As to the Michael Shellenberger book the people he is quoting are already contacting him telling him that they misunderstood their study or used the data badly from their studies and he is hard at work hiding their comments.

The author makes a ton of claims about being a leftist but most of the praise and articles are all on right-wing news sites. Almost as if his bonafides are a false mask used to give himself credibility. It is also laughable that he has the gall to apologize on an entire occupation's behalf for the data they have been putting out as if he represents them as a whole.

Smart guy though. He understands that one of the fastest ways to get rich is to tell people exactly what they want to hear. His marketing campaign is also very impressive.

[Tacenda]

1 minute ago, Duncan said:

Viruses will have humility either forced humility or otherwise. Humility to the fact that opening up too soon was a terrible idea, not wearing masks is a dumb, dumb practice or humility to the idea that paranoia drags it out and making it worse than it is for all the reasons listed above. You need balance and I don't know if mankind is achieving that.

👋 👍 I'm sad that mankind in general isn't being addressed more than politics, not that that is what Smac is doing.

I'm sure our creator is pretty disappointed. I do believe the government isn't mistake free, and we may have handled things wrong. But going forward I hope we concentrate more on health, less on what we think government is doing wrong.

I hope we each do what in our hearts we believe is right and take a simplistic action, on prevention and precaution on a virus we have no clue about.

We've lost over 500,000 lives worldwide in the span of maybe 4 months, it's time.

[Calm]

1 minute ago, Tacenda said:

I'm sure our creator is pretty disappointed

I think he knew us well enough disappointment is not what he is feeling.  Mortality is a place to make all our mistakes imo, so eternity can be free of such suffering because by then we will have learned what the consequences are and why and want to prevent them. 

And we are making full use of that opportunity to screw up.

[smac97]

14 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

As to the Michael Shellenberger book the people he is quoting are already contacting him telling him that they misunderstood their study or used the data badly from their studies and he is hard at work hiding their comments.

The author makes a ton of claims about being a leftist but most of the praise and articles are all on right-wing news sites. Almost as if his bonafides are a false mask used to give himself credibility. It is also laughable that he has the gall to apologize on an entire occupation's behalf for the data they have been putting out as if he represents them as a whole.

Smart guy though. He understands that one of the fastest ways to get rich is to tell people exactly what they want to hear. His marketing campaign is also very impressive.

These are fair points to raise.  I'm curious whether he is providing a substantively accurate portrayal of the state of things.  Partisanship makes that difficult.

Thanks,

-Smac

[bluebell]

22 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

As to the Michael Shellenberger book the people he is quoting are already contacting him telling him that they misunderstood their study or used the data badly from their studies and he is hard at work hiding their comments.

The author makes a ton of claims about being a leftist but most of the praise and articles are all on right-wing news sites. Almost as if his bonafides are a false mask used to give himself credibility. It is also laughable that he has the gall to apologize on an entire occupation's behalf for the data they have been putting out as if he represents them as a whole.

Smart guy though. He understands that one of the fastest ways to get rich is to tell people exactly what they want to hear. His marketing campaign is also very impressive.

This is to be expected though. People love it when they think that someone that used to disagree with them does an about face (they will shout it from the rooftops), and people hate it when someone who used to agree with them, suddenly disagrees (they will either ignore or do what they can to poison the well).  It doesn't matter which group it is or what ideology is being discussed, this is the reaction that will happen 100% of the time.  It means nothing.  It has no bearing on the accuracy of the information, it's just a pride response and we're all guilty of it to one degree or another.

Think of what would happen if Stephen Hawkins suddenly said he was a Christian.  Or if Pres. Nelson or the Pope came out as atheist.  The praise would come from the opposite side, and the denigration from their previous camps.

 

Edited June 30, 2020 by bluebell

[bluebell]

39 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I am not saying that reasonable and measures responses to COVID, or peaceful protests about the death of George Floyd, or reasoned calls for improved environmental stewardship are "secret combinations."  I am wondering that the misappropriation and misuse of these legitimate issues for ulterior purposes are possible vectors whereby "secret combinations" can gain traction in society.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

-Smac

I think we would be naive to believe that satan can't get people to twist every good thing into something that can cause harm.  I don't think there is a single cause or issue that can't be/isn't used for evil as much as used for good.   

The hard part is figuring out which aspects are good and which have been twisted.  That takes some real inspection, humility, and effort that many people aren't willing to do.  Echo chambers and righteous indignation brought about by our perceived moral superiority are usually more comfortable and so get more use.

Edited June 30, 2020 by bluebell

[InCognitus]

27 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

As to the Michael Shellenberger book the people he is quoting are already contacting him telling him that they misunderstood their study or used the data badly from their studies and he is hard at work hiding their comments.

The author makes a ton of claims about being a leftist but most of the praise and articles are all on right-wing news sites. Almost as if his bonafides are a false mask used to give himself credibility. It is also laughable that he has the gall to apologize on an entire occupation's behalf for the data they have been putting out as if he represents them as a whole.

Smart guy though. He understands that one of the fastest ways to get rich is to tell people exactly what they want to hear. His marketing campaign is also very impressive.

To quote the Encyclopedia of Mormonism article, " power and gain are their motives (Ether 8:15, 25), and conspiracy is their method of operation (Hel. 6:22-24)".  Maybe this guy fits the point of the OP but in an entirely different way.

[pogi]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

Why is there so much shrill alarmism going on?

 

Are you looking in the mirror when you ask that question?

Adding the element of secret combinations to an already devastating pandemic and other world events isn’t alarmist?  Not only are we dealing with these issues, but now there is an invisible boogie-man/men that may be behind it all.  Terrifying!  

Edited June 30, 2020 by pogi

[smac97]

28 minutes ago, pogi said:

Are you looking in the mirror when you ask that question?

Please don't personalize the thread.

28 minutes ago, pogi said:

Adding the element of secret combinations to an already devastating pandemic and other world events isn’t alarmist?  Not only are we dealing with these issues, but now there is an invisible boogie-man/men that may be behind it all.  Terrifying!  

Feel free to disregard this thread, then. 

Thanks,

-Smac

[Bob Crockett]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

I am not saying that reasonable and measures responses to COVID, or peaceful protests about the death of George Floyd, or reasoned calls for improved environmental stewardship are "secret combinations."  I am wondering that the misappropriation and misuse of these legitimate issues for ulterior purposes are possible vectors whereby "secret combinations" can gain traction in society.

I agree that the government has let us down.  It is not equipped to deal with a health crisis.  It is not appropriate to shut down the economy.  

I think of the state and county parks and beaches where I live in California.  Why were these shut down?   Because:  The parks employees were getting paid anyway.  The supervisors didn't want to supervise and wanted a vacation, and used the pandemic to get one.  So the lazy government workers sat on their can when, instead, they should have provided what government is suppose to provide:  outdoor park and recreation space.  

This sort of thought translates through the rest of the government.  Lazy workers, sitting on their cans, getting paid, and paid to stay home and do nothing.   As a lawyer I can't get through to the court system, the Department of Building and Safety permit system, and the like.  When a major mediation firm, JAMS, started exhibiting the same behavior (composed of retired judges) I screamed holy hell and now JAMS is off and running with legitimate zoom-based services.   

The government would rather sit on its thumbs and do nothing.   The left appreciates it; it makes people more beholding to social programs.  The right loves it; for reasons I cannot understand. 

And our religion?  There's a lot it could have done; it has done little to nothing.  I am very disappointed.  I have changed my view of my church.  

In terms of race riots -- why not?  Nothing else to do.  People out of work.  

[pogi]

47 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

I think of the state and county parks and beaches where I live in California.  Why were these shut down?   Because:  The parks employees were getting paid anyway.  The supervisors didn't want to supervise and wanted a vacation, and used the pandemic to get one.  So the lazy government workers sat on their can when, instead, they should have provided what government is suppose to provide:  outdoor park and recreation space.  

This sort of thought translates through the rest of the government.  Lazy workers, sitting on their cans, getting paid, and paid to stay home and do nothing.   As a lawyer I can't get through to the court system, the Department of Building and Safety permit system, and the like.  When a major mediation firm, JAMS, started exhibiting the same behavior (composed of retired judges) I screamed holy hell and now JAMS is off and running with legitimate zoom-based services. 

Ummm, these "lazy" government employees didn't shut anything down to receive a paid vacation.  They didn't shut anything down period.  These services weren't closed under their authority or orders.  Every government is facing tough fiscal decisions and budget problems - it has affected them too.  If you think for a second that governments are riding the gravy train through this you are totally ignorant.  Most health department government workers, who's jobs have been affected by closures, have been shifted to an active role in the covid response.  Just about every single agency has been working their asses off in the response!  They have shifted from their normal roles in unrelated fields and have been thrown in the deep end of the pool without a life-jacket.  60, 70, 80, and even 90 hour weeks!  If you think we are sitting around twiddling our thumbs and getting paid, you are nuts.  I am a government worker, and your characterization of us is insulting.  I work with highly committed, highly dedicated, service oriented, extremely hard workers, making incredible sacrifices for their communities that they are trying to protect.    

Why were these services shut-down, you ask?  Because they were non-essential services, and we were facing an unpredictable pandemic that we knew very little about, other than that it was highly infectious and potentially highly lethal.  

 

Edited June 30, 2020 by pogi

[smac97]

33 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

And our religion?  There's a lot it could have done; it has done little to nothing.  I am very disappointed.  I have changed my view of my church.  

What do you think the Church should have done?

[MustardSeed]

Secret combinations? 
 

no.  I strongly disagree.  Imo. 

[Bob Crockett]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

Ummm, these "lazy" government employees didn't shut anything down to receive a paid vacation.  They didn't shut anything down period.  These services weren't closed under their authority or orders.  Every government is facing tough fiscal decisions and budget problems - it has affected them too.  If you think for a second that governments are riding the gravy train through this you are totally ignorant.  Most health department government workers, who's jobs have been affected by closures, have been shifted to an active role in the covid response.  Just about every single agency has been working their asses off in the response!  They have shifted from their normal roles in unrelated fields and have been thrown in the deep end of the pool without a life-jacket.  60, 70, 80, and even 90 hour weeks!  If you think we are sitting around twiddling our thumbs and getting paid, you are nuts.  I am a government worker, and your characterization of us is insulting.  I work with highly committed, highly dedicated, service oriented, extremely hard workers, making incredible sacrifices for their communities that they are trying to protect.    

Why were these services shut-down, you ask?  Because they were non-essential services, and we were facing an unpredictable pandemic that we knew very little about, other than that it was highly infectious and potentially highly lethal.  

 

I don't think I'm ignorant.  My law practice includes a lot of administrative work, meaning, I'm in contact with many different aspects of local and state government.  My administrative practice involves interface with the following subject areas:  water quality, water pollution; air pollution; securities regulation; department of building and safety; health boards; doctor boards; dental boards; dam safety and much more.  My administrative practice not only includes filling out applications and pursuing them to suing over them. 

And, yes, I can say that they are lazy and have used Covid-19 as a means to take a vacation.  From regulation; from showing up; from supervising at beaches and parks; from supervising doctors and hospitals; some work they could be doing from home but aren't.

Compared to health care workers, grocery store clerks and restaurant workers; yes, they are lazy.  Creepishly lazy.   The politicians see this as a way to ingratiate themselves with public employee unions, who are all pressing for the time off.   You don't like it?  You don't like what I'm saying?  

I'm constantly in zoom calls with angry clients trying to get work done with the government; essential work; life threatening cases.   It cannot be done.  You and I are being hosed by the government.  We are being let down when we need them the most.

Even postal workers -- make no effort to ascend the elevators in multistory buildings to drop off packages.   Negligence and laziness I've not seen before.

Edited June 30, 2020 by Bob Crockett

[BlueDreams]

8 hours ago, smac97 said:

These are fair points to raise.  I'm curious whether he is providing a substantively accurate portrayal of the state of things.  Partisanship makes that difficult.

Thanks,

-Smac

From the environmental scientists and activists and reading (most not with a specific partisan drive...often not even from this country)...no. His points are ...ummm....well baiting for a specific demographic with a specific viewpoint. 
One area that i know fairly well are meat eating stats. He gives a few that are fairly inaccurate or misleading. like the one about 4% carbon reduction for vegetarians....that, if at all accurate, are the extremely low estimates probably based on a very selective look at studies (ie. The ones that back his point and help him sell a message). Most researched stats lean to 25-50% ...some as high as 70 depending where and how they get their food. But it’s also solidly known that there’s really no good way to sustainably maintain the level of beef people eat period due to land use. Not for the freee range cows, but to produce feed to go to said animals in moden agricultural practices. It’s fueling land and resources depletion as well as soil and water contamination from concentrated waste. The other is that he artificially disconects these points from climate change. These farming and land use problems reduce carbon sinks which augments the effect of carbon dioxide being pumped into the atmosphere. 
 

as to the main point, it feels like a stretch to describe it as “secret combinations.” Avoiding politcs and focusing on secret combinations, from the scriptures these were generally tied to seek power through violence...their positives were often, at best facades. They were also usually coordinated. Most of the examples you mentioned largely have good core desires with branches that can veer towards extremes acts. And example from history would be the abolitionists. Most would agree at this point that their core intwntuon and desire were good, but some of the most extreme voices in said groups may have taken things to more violent or extreme means to reach their message. This doesn’t indicate secrets combinations, but the messiness of fighting for positive change

 

with luv, 

bd 

(excuse typos. On phone) 

[Scott Lloyd]

On 6/30/2020 at 11:32 AM, bluebell said:

This is to be expected though. People love it when they think that someone that used to disagree with them does an about face (they will shout it from the rooftops), and people hate it when someone who used to agree with them, suddenly disagrees (they will either ignore or do what they can to poison the well).  It doesn't matter which group it is or what ideology is being discussed, this is the reaction that will happen 100% of the time.  It means nothing.  It has no bearing on the accuracy of the information, it's just a pride response and we're all guilty of it to one degree or another.

Think of what would happen if Stephen Hawkins suddenly said he was a Christian.  Or if Pres. Nelson or the Pope came out as atheist.  The praise would come from the opposite side, and the denigration from their previous camps.

 

Stephen Hawking. 
 

Good post, though. Smart point. Dismissing someone because his words have been “touted on right-wing news shows” is blatant ad hominem attack. 

Edited July 1, 2020 by Scott Lloyd

[Robert F. Smith]

16 hours ago, smac97 said:

..................  I am wondering that the misappropriation and misuse of these legitimate issues for ulterior purposes are possible vectors whereby "secret combinations" can gain traction in society.
..................

There are now and always have been a variety of cabals working to advance their own interests.  That is nothing new, and they range from criminal street gangs to corporations to governmental operations.  In Russia they are a confederation of oligarchs headed by Vlad Putin, whose new constitution makes him the Russian leader for life.  In China it is Xi Jinping, also leader for life.  We know who the beneficiaries are in those and many other cases, even though they carry out secret policies of murder and harsh repression when necessary.

Any righteous cause can be misappropriated, and probably will be -- by both Left and Right wing extremists.  Again nothing at all new, and that tells us nothing about the merit of some particular policy.

"Climate change," for example, has been going on for billions of years.  Nothing at all new in that, and the term is meaningless.  The real boogeyman is global warming, and the claims that it brings with it global catastrophe on a scale not ever before seen in human experience.  The issue of global warming is a matter of science not sociology or psychology.  If the scientists are correct, it is coming at us like a fast freight, and it is now too late do anything about it -- except plan for new port facilities world-wide, and for massive dislocations of large populations.

But, no matter.  We won't be here to see it.  That is for the next generation, which will feel the full impact of rising sea levels and of extreme heat.

[Robert F. Smith]

11 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

I don't think I'm ignorant.  My law practice includes a lot of administrative work, meaning, I'm in contact with many different aspects of local and state government.  My administrative practice involves interface with the following subject areas:  water quality, water pollution; air pollution; securities regulation; department of building and safety; health boards; doctor boards; dental boards; dam safety and much more.  My administrative practice not only includes filling out applications and pursuing them to suing over them. 

And, yes, I can say that they are lazy and have used Covid-19 as a means to take a vacation.  From regulation; from showing up; from supervising at beaches and parks; from supervising doctors and hospitals; some work they could be doing from home but aren't.

Compared to health care workers, grocery store clerks and restaurant workers; yes, they are lazy.  Creepishly lazy.   The politicians see this as a way to ingratiate themselves with public employee unions, who are all pressing for the time off.   You don't like it?  You don't like what I'm saying?  

I'm constantly in zoom calls with angry clients trying to get work done with the government; essential work; life threatening cases.   It cannot be done.  You and I are being hosed by the government.  We are being let down when we need them the most.

Even postal workers -- make no effort to ascend the elevators in multistory buildings to drop off packages.   Negligence and laziness I've not seen before.

Everybody cheats, Bob.  Your corporate clients as well as the ordinary workers.  The excuse they always give is: "Well, everyone does it, right?"  Students cheat on their tests in high school and college.  And why not?  All grading is social now, anyhow.  And you don't need to be right to litigate.  It's like a lottery.

Honesty used to mean something, but no longer.  Anyone honest today is considered a fool.

[Bob Crockett]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Everybody cheats, Bob.  Your corporate clients as well as the ordinary workers.  The excuse they always give is: "Well, everyone does it, right?"  Students cheat on their tests in high school and college.  And why not?  All grading is social now, anyhow.  And you don't need to be right to litigate.  It's like a lottery.

Honesty used to mean something, but no longer.  Anyone honest today is considered a fool.

That isn't a response.  My heart goes out to the grocery store clerks; the guys and girls who wear masks all day at my bike shop working to repair bikes.  My good friend who is a respiratory therapist who works in a moon suit all day and who works two shifts a day.  The low-paid people who wear masks and face shields at restaurants and gas stations.  They aren't cheating.  

But the government workers:  Fully paid; no fear of layoff; they don't show up and they don't work from home.  They don't work from home because nobody has given them the means to do so nor requires it.  They don't wear masks and face shields because they have taken off.  People who look at construction plans, who inspect buildings. People who used to patrol at parks and beaches. People who regulate hospitals, who approve new hospitals.  People who work in county supervisors offices responding to complaints.  Ninety percent of these are off - completely off.  Who is holding them to account?  Politicians -- in my state, Gov. Newsom, the County Board of Supervisors, Mayor Garcetti.   

[USU78]

20 hours ago, smac97 said:

I do not dispute the seriousness of the viral pandemic, but I have some serious reservations about governmental overreach, hysteria, economic injury through reflexive shutdowns, etc.

I do not dispute that Americans can and should improve race relations, including some modifications to governmental actions in relation thereto.  However, I have some serious concerns about the death of George Floyd being (mis)appropriated for ulterior purposes (anarchy, marxism, wanton violence and destruction, opportunistic looting, etc.).

I also believe we should be good stewards of the earth.  However, I am concerned about alarmism, wild predictions that are not borne out by data, misanthrophy, and other ill characteristics of extreme envirtonmentalism.  By way of illustration:

That last question gave me pause.  Why is there so much shrill alarmism going on?  Why are these noble endeavors (limiting COVID, improving race relations, improving the environment) so heavily encumbered with groups and individuals seeking to misappropriate and exploit them for other, more nefarious purposes?

Are these misappropriations examples of how "secret combinations" come about?  From the Encyclopedia of Mormonism:

I am not saying that reasonable and measures responses to COVID, or peaceful protests about the death of George Floyd, or reasoned calls for improved environmental stewardship are "secret combinations."  I am wondering that the misappropriation and misuse of these legitimate issues for ulterior purposes are possible vectors whereby "secret combinations" can gain traction in society.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

-Smac

I have an analytical tool I have found quite useful when confronted with phenomena:

If an effect is foreseeable, the act creating the effect was undertaken precisely to bring about the effect. This helps determine intent for those situations when I'm considering pleading intentional torts, fraud and deceit. The argument, "But I didn't intend that to happen," evaporates in the face of foreseeability and inevitability.

And when more than one intends the effect, and they keep quiet about it, you've got yourself a secret combination, seems to me.

[Calm]

23 minutes ago, USU78 said:

If an effect is foreseeable, the act creating the effect was undertaken precisely to bring about the effect.

That ignores the fact there could be multiple things that are caused at the same act as that effect and people are so focused on what they don’t process all consequences. Just because you think you could have foreseen something looking back, doesn’t mean others could looking forward...or even yourself. 

For example, it is foreseeable and inevitable that if someone chooses to go to one restaurant, they do not go to another.  Is the purpose of their choice not to go to the other restaurant.  

Someone wants to buy a certain shampoo,  it the only option is a shampoo and conditioner set.  They buy the set for the shampoo.  That they also got conditioner is irrelevant to them.  By your reasoning they must have bought the set precisely to purchase the conditioner.

Thus the issue that an act often creates multiple effects, where one effect is desired and all others are side effects. Thus the act was not intended to create the effect, it just also happened. 
 

Judging others’ motivations in such a simplistic and rigid manner is a risky business...especially if God judges one by the same rule one judges others.

Edited July 1, 2020 by Calm

[alter idem]

20 hours ago, smac97 said:

I do not dispute the seriousness of the viral pandemic, but I have some serious reservations about governmental overreach, hysteria, economic injury through reflexive shutdowns, etc.

I do not dispute that Americans can and should improve race relations, including some modifications to governmental actions in relation thereto.  However, I have some serious concerns about the death of George Floyd being (mis)appropriated for ulterior purposes (anarchy, marxism, wanton violence and destruction, opportunistic looting, etc.).

I also believe we should be good stewards of the earth.  However, I am concerned about alarmism, wild predictions that are not borne out by data, misanthrophy, and other ill characteristics of extreme envirtonmentalism.  By way of illustration:

That last question gave me pause.  Why is there so much shrill alarmism going on?  Why are these noble endeavors (limiting COVID, improving race relations, improving the environment) so heavily encumbered with groups and individuals seeking to misappropriate and exploit them for other, more nefarious purposes?

Are these misappropriations examples of how "secret combinations" come about?  From the Encyclopedia of Mormonism:

I am not saying that reasonable and measures responses to COVID, or peaceful protests about the death of George Floyd, or reasoned calls for improved environmental stewardship are "secret combinations."  I am wondering that the misappropriation and misuse of these legitimate issues for ulterior purposes are possible vectors whereby "secret combinations" can gain traction in society.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

-Smac

Absolutely, you are right, as I read the warnings found in the Book of Mormon. Ether 8:24-25. This is a sober warning from a prophet of God who saw us in vision. His warning was that when these secret combinations come among us, we need to wake up so we can be aware and fight against their hidden agendas and evil influence and their desire to destroy our freedom. Imo, we are seeing them at work today. If we don't soon get a sense to what's happening around us, we'll find we can no longer do anything about it.

But we can't claim that we members are not being warned. If we're reading the Book of Mormon,  as we've been counseled to do, and looking for the warning signs, then the spirit is able to warn us.

[USU78]

In smac's business one is charged with serving a system whose sole purpose is to judge, as best as mankind can devise, the actions of others. Certain tools have been developed through the combined experience of thousands over a thousand years and more for making those judgments. 

The tools work, with some sometimes notable exceptions. In my 36 years in that business I've developed a "nose" for such things. It's seldom wrong. People tend to behave according to mostly discernable patterns. Over large groups, those patterns' exceptions tend to disappear in the flow of humanity.

If I intend the act, I intend the reasonably foreseeable consequences of the act: that's one of the tools. It is useful for assigning responsibility for the consequences, which is about as close as mankind can get to judging others' hearts and minds. G-d's judgment is quite another thing.

Those who combine together for the purpose of acting, where the acts' consequences, subjectively intended or not, are inevitable, can be charged with responsibility for those consequences in that sphere. G-d's judgment is something quite different. Subjective intent matters, along with willful blindness and self deception.