Mark of the Beast

[rodheadlee]

What is our position on Revelation Chapter 13 verses 14- 18? I was an EV before converting to the Church so i probably have a flawed view. This news article brought it to my attention.

 https://news.yahoo.com/evangelicals-fear-the-mark-of-the-beast-from-a-coronavirus-vaccine-183249943.html

frome the article: Prominent evangelical pastors, including one who has since died of COVID-19, have promoted baseless claims about Bill Gates, implantable microchips that could be used to control the population under the guise of tracking COVID-19 infections and immunity, and a link between coronavirus vaccination and the mark of the beast, a signifier, in biblical prophecy, of submission to the Antichrist. Such ideas have since spread beyond evangelical circles.

What is the mark of the beast?

 

sorry for the poor form my computer is a beast.

 

 

[InCognitus]

Funny thing, I was in the Book Store today and they had a big sign up that said, 'The Post-Apocalyptic fiction books have been moved to the Current Events section'

Not really, but that was a joke I heard the other day.  I talk to various Christian friends online, and end times speculation is going wild right now, sometimes into absurd extremes.  I have more I'd like to say about that in another post when I have a little more time later.

But to your question, I'll throw out a couple of ideas right now.  This "mark" seems (to me) to be the antithesis or counterfeit of the seal of God taken on by the people of Christ, as noted in Revelation 7:3 and 9:4, and it has always reminded me of these verses in Exodus 13:

Exod 13:9  And it shall be for a sign unto thee upon thine hand, and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the Lord's law may be in thy mouth: for with a strong hand hath the LORD brought thee out of Egypt.

Exod 13:16  And it shall be for a token upon thine hand, and for frontlets between thine eyes: for by strength of hand the LORD brought us forth out of Egypt.

I'm not sure these need to be physical marks, but they are symbolic of covenants that are made and are manifest in the private and public display of allegiance to God, or to the beast, as the case may be.   When we are baptized, we take upon us the name of Christ.  This isn't something tattooed to our forehead, but it should be reflected in our behavior.   I assume this will be equally evident with those who carry the mark of the beast.   I think it's also noteworthy that the placement of the mark(s) of the beast are described to be in the same place as the seal or marks of God.  You can't be double minded.  If you follow one, you can't also be following the other.

Edited May 15, 2020 by InCognitus

[The Nehor]

End times hysteria is fun. While I am annoyed at how many people are downplaying this pandemic as "no big deal" the opposite saying this the end of days is imminent is silly. Unless something very unlikely happens this will not be the worst pandemic in modern history and nowhere near the worst ever. We will almost certainly pass the Hong Kong flu toll of a million worldwide (1968) and probably the Asian flu of 2 million (1956). I don't think we will pass the 1918 Spanish flu pandemic where it is estimated 35-40 million died. History has worse plagues on a per capita basis. The outbreak of Bubonic plague in the plague of Justinian killed about 25 million in one year when populations were much smaller. In more recent times it was and continues to be a slow burn but the HIV pandemic has killed over 35 million.

And yeah, all of those also had people claiming it was the end of the world.

[teddyaware]

2 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

What is our position on Revelation Chapter 13 verses 14- 18? I was an EV before converting to the Church so i probably have a flawed view. This news article brought it to my attention.

 https://news.yahoo.com/evangelicals-fear-the-mark-of-the-beast-from-a-coronavirus-vaccine-183249943.html

frome the article: Prominent evangelical pastors, including one who has since died of COVID-19, have promoted baseless claims about Bill Gates, implantable microchips that could be used to control the population under the guise of tracking COVID-19 infections and immunity, and a link between coronavirus vaccination and the mark of the beast, a signifier, in biblical prophecy, of submission to the Antichrist. Such ideas have since spread beyond evangelical circles.

What is the mark of the beast?

 

sorry for the poor form my computer is a beast.

 

 

I fully expect most who will venture to respond to your question will opine the notion that one day a satanic worldwide secular power will require some sort of permanent personal identifying mark of compliance to be willingly received by every member of the human race before they will be allowed to participate in the world economy is nothing more than another ridiculous conspiracy theory that couldn’t possibly happen in the real world. And they will say this in spite of the fact that:

1) The verses of the Book of Revelation you quote plainly state the prophecy is going to be fulfilled.

2) Both the Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price are full of examples of secretive conspiratorial groups controlled by Satan that participated in this exact same kind of diabolical behavior In order to get power and gain and escape punishment for their many abominable crimes.

3 In Ether chapter 8 the prophet Moroni most solemnly warns the gentiles of the last days (us) that the same kind of satanically inspired secret combinations that utterly destroyed both the Jaredite and Nephite nations will reappear in out time, only this time the object of the conspirator’s designs will be much grander In scope, to wit the complete destruction of the religion of Christ and and the total enslavement of humanity throughout the entire world.  

[rodheadlee]

32 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

End times hysteria is fun. While I am annoyed at how many people are downplaying this pandemic as "no big deal" the opposite saying this the end of days is imminent is silly. Unless something very unlikely happens this will not be the worst pandemic in modern history and nowhere near the worst ever. We will almost certainly pass the Hong Kong flu toll of a million worldwide (1968) and probably the Asian flu of 2 million (1956). I don't think we will pass the 1918 Spanish flu pandemic where it is estimated 35-40 million died. History has worse plagues on a per capita basis. The outbreak of Bubonic plague in the plague of Justinian killed about 25 million in one year when populations were much smaller. In more recent times it was and continues to be a slow burn but the HIV pandemic has killed over 35 million.

And yeah, all of those also had people claiming it was the end of the world.

Yes but you did not answer my question. What are your views on the mark of the Beast?

[CV75]

3 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

What is the mark of the beast?

I think it could mean that, at some point, no one in the target audience of end-time prophecies will be able to do much of anything outside of Zion without compromising their inner light. That audience may consist of a relatively small but prophetically-significant group of people, or anyone reliant upon the global economy in general to survive, but in contrast, Zion will also grow in preparation for the Second Coming. Another way of looking at it is, they conducting their temporal business not with an eye toward Zion but for some other power, which may include themselves. Related to this, I also think it might be that while war, plague and pestilence, natural disaster, etc. have hampered us since the beginning of civilization, the target audience may have counterproductive attitudes in dealing with them.

[The Nehor]

31 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

I fully expect most who will venture to respond to your question will opine the notion that one day a satanic worldwide secular power will require some sort of permanent personal identifying mark of compliance to be willingly received by every member of the human race before they will be allowed to participate in the world economy is nothing more than another ridiculous conspiracy theory that couldn’t possibly happen in the real world. And they will say this in spite of the fact that:

1) The verses of the Book of Revelation you quote plainly state the prophecy is going to be fulfilled.

2) Both the Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price are full of examples of secretive conspiratorial groups controlled by Satan that participated in this exact same kind of diabolical behavior In order to get power and gain and escape punishment for their many abominable crimes.

3 In Ether chapter 8 the prophet Moroni most solemnly warns the gentiles of the last days (us) that the same kind of satanically inspired secret combinations that utterly destroyed both the Jaredite and Nephite nations will reappear in out time, only this time the object of the conspirator’s designs will be much grander In scope, to wit the complete destruction of the religion of Christ and and the total enslavement of humanity throughout the entire world.  

Congratulations on your exalted spiritual state in which you can definitively declare which parts are literal and which are spiritual. Tell the angel delivering this information I said "hi".

[The Nehor]

11 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

Yes but you did not answer my question. What are your views on the mark of the Beast?

It is an oath of allegiance. The secret combinations are out there. They are only sort of secret. They are generally blatant and when they try to be secret they are such bumbling fools about it and inevitably betray each other that everyone finds out anyways. The secret combinations are basically pacts to hide wrongdoing for gain or acclaim. The question is not so much swearing an oath to anyone or belonging to an organized group with a name and secret handshake. It is whether you are willing to play this game and agree to group silence on everyone's misdeeds because everyone is enjoying the benefits. The mark and not being able to buy and sell is probably ostracism. When the mode of life is so corrupt that you cannot participate at all and stay clean you have to flee to Zion. The combinations are everywhere. Employees helping each other make sure their time sheets all cheat. Middle managers agreeing to cover each other's minor embezzlements. A family that cooperates in a scam or to steal. A group of police covering up minor graft. A gang getting protection money. Running pay to play schemes in politics. Digging a pit for your neighbor justifying it by saying if they were not fools they would not fall in. Grinding the faces of the poor with exorbitant interest or defrauding them because they do not have the resources to challenge your unfairness. Making merchandise of your fellow men by using them and cheating them all the way up to human trafficking.

The mark is the willingness to "play ball" because this is the way things work. It will be more and more obvious who is and is not in these combinations to the point a physical mark would not be needed.

That is my guess anyways.

[rodheadlee]

9 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Congratulations on your exalted spiritual state in which you can definitively declare which parts are literal and which are spiritual. Tell the angel delivering this information I said "hi".

Really? You are going to take potshots instead of answering the question? Go to your room, don't say anything if you can't say something nice or answer the question. What is the Mark of the Beast?

[rodheadlee]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

It is an oath of allegiance. The secret combinations are out there. They are only sort of secret. They are generally blatant and when they try to be secret they are such bumbling fools about it and inevitably betray each other that everyone finds out anyways. The secret combinations are basically pacts to hide wrongdoing for gain or acclaim. The question is not so much swearing an oath to anyone or belonging to an organized group with a name and secret handshake. It is whether you are willing to play this game and agree to group silence on everyone's misdeeds because everyone is enjoying the benefits. The mark and not being able to buy and sell is probably ostracism. When the mode of life is so corrupt that you cannot participate at all and stay clean you have to flee to Zion. The combinations are everywhere. Employees helping each other make sure their time sheets all cheat. Middle managers agreeing to cover each other's minor embezzlements. A family that cooperates in a scam or to steal. A group of police covering up minor graft. A gang getting protection money. Running pay to play schemes in politics. Digging a pit for your neighbor justifying it by saying if they were not fools they would not fall in. Grinding the faces of the poor with exorbitant interest or defrauding them because they do not have the resources to challenge your unfairness. Making merchandise of your fellow men by using them and cheating them all the way up to human trafficking.

The mark is the willingness to "play ball" because this is the way things work. It will be more and more obvious who is and is not in these combinations to the point a physical mark would not be needed.

That is my guess anyways.

Thank you.

[The Nehor]

7 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

Really? You are going to take potshots instead of answering the question? Go to your room, don't say anything if you can't say something nice or answer the question. What is the Mark of the Beast?

I can do two things.

[rodheadlee]

Does any one else think it is literal?

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, InCognitus said:

...............................

Exod 13:9  And it shall be for a sign unto thee upon thine hand, and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the Lord's law may be in thy mouth: for with a strong hand hath the LORD brought thee out of Egypt.

Exod 13:16  And it shall be for a token upon thine hand, and for frontlets between thine eyes: for by strength of hand the LORD brought us forth out of Egypt.

I'm not sure these need to be physical marks, but they are symbolic of covenants that are made and are manifest in the private and public display of allegiance to God, or to the beast, as the case may be.   When we are baptized, we take upon us the name of Christ.  This isn't something tattooed to our forehead, but it should be reflected in our behavior.   I assume this will be equally evident with those who carry the mark of the beast.   I think it's also noteworthy that the placement of the mark(s) of the beast are described to be in the same place as the seal or marks of God.  You can't be double minded.  If you follow one, you can't also be following the other.

Deut 6:6-8, "And these words, which I command thee this day,..shall be as frontlets between thine eyes" as part of Jewish Shemaˁ-prayer, and which is interpreted by the rabbis as referring to tefillin "phylacteries" (Mat 23:5), which are small leather boxes in which some commandments are contained, and wrapped with leather straps by Jews on their arms, and on their foreheads during prayer; cf Midrash Sifre Deuteronomy 6:4.  The Karaites believe these passages to be just figurative; Mosiah 1:5-6, "and have his commandments always before our eyes,... and we can know of their surety because we have them before our eyes"; Alma 3:16-18 (Amlicite self-marking in forehead), 39:9 (cross  yourself, twice in that verse), would seem to make these things real, rather than just figurative -- humans fulfilling God's word.

Phylacteries are only a Jewish obligation.  Several times when wearing a yarmulka or speaking Hebrew, I have had Orthodox Jews try to wrap me in tefillin.  I simply explained that I am not Jewish, and they desisted.

[Hamba Tuhan]

I like turning to approved Church sources:

Revelation 13:16–17. The Mark of the Beast

In contrast to the righteous, who keep their covenants with God and receive His protecting seal on their foreheads (see Revelation 7:2–3; 14:1; 22:4; the commentary for Revelation 7:3; 9:4), the wicked who worship the beast “receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads” (Revelation 13:16). This may symbolize that the wicked show by their actions (hands) and beliefs (heads) that they do the will of the beast and accept his ideology. However, the precise meaning of “the mark” has not been revealed.

[MiserereNobis]

5 hours ago, teddyaware said:

I fully expect most who will venture to respond to your question will opine the notion that one day a satanic worldwide secular power will require some sort of permanent personal identifying mark of compliance to be willingly received by every member of the human race before they will be allowed to participate in the world economy is nothing more than another ridiculous conspiracy theory that couldn’t possibly happen in the real world. And they will say this in spite of the fact that:

1) The verses of the Book of Revelation you quote plainly state the prophecy is going to be fulfilled.

2) Both the Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price are full of examples of secretive conspiratorial groups controlled by Satan that participated in this exact same kind of diabolical behavior In order to get power and gain and escape punishment for their many abominable crimes.

3 In Ether chapter 8 the prophet Moroni most solemnly warns the gentiles of the last days (us) that the same kind of satanically inspired secret combinations that utterly destroyed both the Jaredite and Nephite nations will reappear in out time, only this time the object of the conspirator’s designs will be much grander In scope, to wit the complete destruction of the religion of Christ and and the total enslavement of humanity throughout the entire world.  

Do you believe that Bill Gates is going to put microchips that will control you into the coronavirus vaccine and that this is the mark of the beast?

Edited May 16, 2020 by MiserereNobis

[CV75]

"Oh my stars and garters!" -- The Beast

[Tacenda]

I don't believe everything in the bible and this is one of them.

[carbon dioxide]

7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

End times hysteria is fun. While I am annoyed at how many people are downplaying this pandemic as "no big deal" the opposite saying this the end of days is imminent is silly. Unless something very unlikely happens this will not be the worst pandemic in modern history and nowhere near the worst ever. We will almost certainly pass the Hong Kong flu toll of a million worldwide (1968) and probably the Asian flu of 2 million (1956). I don't think we will pass the 1918 Spanish flu pandemic where it is estimated 35-40 million died. History has worse plagues on a per capita basis. The outbreak of Bubonic plague in the plague of Justinian killed about 25 million in one year when populations were much smaller. In more recent times it was and continues to be a slow burn but the HIV pandemic has killed over 35 million.

And yeah, all of those also had people claiming it was the end of the world.

The pandemic itself will not be nearly as bad is the destruction it is leaving behind.  The effects of this will last a generation.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, carbon dioxide said:

The pandemic itself will not be nearly as bad is the destruction it is leaving behind.  The effects of this will last a generation.

Care to elaborate? It's been on my mind a lot. The upcoming generation, which includes my grandchildren.

[RevTestament]

10 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

What is our position on Revelation Chapter 13 verses 14- 18? I was an EV before converting to the Church so i probably have a flawed view. This news article brought it to my attention.

 https://news.yahoo.com/evangelicals-fear-the-mark-of-the-beast-from-a-coronavirus-vaccine-183249943.html

frome the article: Prominent evangelical pastors, including one who has since died of COVID-19, have promoted baseless claims about Bill Gates, implantable microchips that could be used to control the population under the guise of tracking COVID-19 infections and immunity, and a link between coronavirus vaccination and the mark of the beast, a signifier, in biblical prophecy, of submission to the Antichrist. Such ideas have since spread beyond evangelical circles.

Evangelicals seem to love to stir up all sorts of speculation as if they have the power of God to understand. No, the mark of the beast has nothing to do with vaccinations - it is a spiritual thing with a literal aspect to it. If a vaccination for Covid 19 does come out, evangelicals will rally against it to their own demise. Most Protestants have been as wrong about biblical interpretation as Catholics have. There is no such thing as "the Antichrist." That seems to be a Protestant thing that early Protestants labelled the Roman pontiff with. However, now they claim to us that there never was an apostasy..... go figure.... before them Christianity was led by "the Antichrist" but there never was an apostasy! Nowhere does scripture warn against "the Antichrist." There have been many antichrists. Using strict biblical interpretation, however, antichrists deny the Son of God. This the Roman pontiff does not do. Typically, Protestants seem to confuse the false prophet of Revelation with "the antichrist." Can the Roman pontiff be the false prophet of Revelation. WIth pre-apologies to my Catholic friends, yes, he can, but he is not even an antichrist much less "the antichrist." Is it the end of the world? No. It is just the beginning of the seventh seal or the seventh and last millennium of the temporal history of the earth. It is also the beginning of the great day of trouble spoken of by Daniel the prophet - which I might add the Protestants and Catholics get wrong.

10 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

What is the mark of the beast?

Those who worship the beast “receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads.” Sometimes the truth "hurts." From a Hebrew perspective, this seems to come from the ancient Hebrew character for Tav, which was the character of a cross shape. This changed when Hebrew adopted the Aramaic forms for its letters. The meaning the Tav character carried with it was sign or mark. The mark is the sign of a covenant ie the covenant of the beast of revelation. I attended a Catholic school for 4 years. There are things Catholics are asked to do to recognize the authority of the Roman pontiff. There is also a rite in which the forehead is marked with a cross shape with ashes. I am not being mean here. I genuinely like most Catholics. I am just noting here what is - this will make me unpopular. I am not going to win any popularity contest here. That is for sure. You asked a question. I am answering it with all soberness. Why is the pontiff the recipient of this notoriety? Because his teachings of the doctrines of the Trinity perverted the Way. That is the most basic point of it at least.

10 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

sorry for the poor form my computer is a beast.

Beasts in the scriptures are typically countries or kingdoms. See Daniel 7. Note Revelation speaks of the kingdom of the beast. See Rev 16:10

[The Nehor]

13 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

The pandemic itself will not be nearly as bad is the destruction it is leaving behind.  The effects of this will last a generation.

That people look at stock portfolio losses and business closures an restructuring on one hand and hundreds of thousands of corpses on the other hand and come to the conclusion that the former is the bigger problem is kind of sad.

[strappinglad]

That red bar at the top of my screen seems about as effective as a crochet mask 

First we should decide who or  what the Beast is before we can ascertain what the Mark of the Beast is. 

Reptilians anyone ???☹️

[MiserereNobis]

1 hour ago, strappinglad said:

First we should decide who or  what the Beast is

"Simon became inarticulate in his efforts to express mankind's essential illness"

[Bernard Gui]

However silly we may think the end times hysteria may be, the day of reckoning eventually came to the land of Zarahemla. I wonder what things were like on the third day of the month.

And there began to be great doubtings and disputations among the people, notwithstanding so many signs had been given. And it came to pass in the thirty and fourth year, in the first month, on the fourth day of the month, there arose a great storm, such an one as never had been known in all the land....

Edited May 16, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[3DOP]

19 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Do you believe that Bill Gates is going to put microchips that will control you into the coronavirus vaccine and that this is the mark of the beast?

Hey Jesse.

I have always wondered how a world could exist where certain persons were prohibited from participating in the market place (buying and selling). For the first time, I can begin to see how and why such an arrangement might happen some day. I do not know if these are the last times. Maybe the Catholic Church is only going through "teenage angst" and with maturity, will soon enter upon her greatest glories and thrive for another two millenia. If this is the end however, God will do as he always has, mercifully providing for souls to go through whatever tribulations they need in order to be sanctified and persevere to the end.

I cannot pooh pooh those who are disturbed with what we are experiencing. It seems to me like your question tends to make the one who answers seem like a ding dong if he answers in the affirmative. Forgive me if I am being over-sensitive. I weary of efforts to make those of different opinions than ourselves seem ridiculous. I always believe that there is an intellectually satisfying reason when a lot of people think and believe what I believe is wrong. Think about how St. Thomas deals with successful error in the Summa. Successful errors cannot be stupid and to try to make them seem to be, only alienates.

I think a lot of people have fears they didn't have a few months ago, and it is not without reason. Our Lord's own Passion and Death occurred through a conspiracy. Whether or not the times for this is now, should we be surprised if it were through another conspiracy that the Church herself endures her final Passion? Are Christians committed to believing that the Church has no enemies that would plot Her destruction if they could?     

As always, it is very good to "see" you.

God bless you.

Rory